reprise: how much do you "believe" in the tarot?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 28 Nov 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	28 Nov 2004
Daring to wonder again ... When the cards say what I want to hear, I often chuck them aside and say, no no, they are just telling me what I want to hear, they are telling me what my dreams are. When they tell me something negative or frightening, I sometimes give them more credence, as misery feels more "realistic". 'Sometimes I say they are just cards!-- a randomly picked series cardboard slats with ink and pictures, how can I let them boss me around? Other times, I look at them with horror and fascination, wondering what is it exactly ? what? what are they trying to tell me?? As if they are truly trying to tell me something and I need to find out what. Then other times, I say, no no, the truth is not in the cards, or even what I see in the cards, the truth is only what I decide it is today, or what I intend it to be.... what shall it be today? What do they mean? What do you want them to mean? How much credence do you really give to the cards and to readings?

Diana	28 Nov 2004
I always believe The Tarot. The cards themselves are useful in order to read The Tarot and I know that the correct cards ALWAYS turn up. However... I sometimes doubt the interpretation that people give them. I doubt the human being. Never ever The Tarot. Never. (Never.)

firemaiden	28 Nov 2004
(Never, ever?) (Not even...ever?)

smokey	28 Nov 2004
not even once? ever??? Sorry Diana, certainly not doubting your word, and no; there is not an echo in the house!...I'm just amazed ...that is all; (with all due respect the cards have still let me down so in the past.)

huredriel	28 Nov 2004
Hope you don't mind me giving my opinion (especially as a complete newbie) but I agree with Diana. In the readings I've been given, isn't the reading based on the personal interpretation of the tarot reader as to what spin is put on things. If someone else had exactly the same cards they may see something completely different. But what about your belief, isn't that the point of the Tarot cards? To see what is hidden, to learn and to receive guidance?

Moonbow*	28 Nov 2004
I believe in the Tarot, as much as I believe in myself..... I believe that the cards themselves hold all the answers we need, because we already have all the answers anyway, spam gets in the way of us thinking clearly sometimes, and the cards help us to 'remember' and bring out of storage what is already there. Yes, sometimes I read the cards for myself and I am seeing what I want to see, so I put that down to not really needing the reading in the first place. But, like you said, the times when they take you aback and make you gasp, are the times to listen to them carefully...... but not necessarily live by them - just listen and remember.

blue_fusion	28 Nov 2004
i guess its like thinking too much about the thought process. while some say that thoughts are original results of free will, spiritual and all, others (perhaps behaviourists) would look at it merely as a result of chemical processes in the brain. both are, in my opinion menaingful. i think the same goes with tarot. that on one hand, the meaningful coincidences that laying down a deck of cards may add insight and foresight to one's life, but then it is also true that they're also a pack of cards - paper printed with inks and laminated - one must also not forget that. they are not (IMHO) the divine enfleshed, universal mysteries unravelled, etc etc.

Diana	28 Nov 2004
smokey wrote: not even once? ever??? Sorry Diana, certainly not doubting your word, and no; there is not an echo in the house!...I'm just amazed ...that is all; (with all due respect the cards have still let me down so in the past.) Are you sure the cards let you down? Or was it your limited (we ALL have limited) knowledge of The Tarot? If I want to build a space-ship and I use my limited knowledge, and it doesn't work and crashes to the ground.... who is at fault? My limited knowledge of Physics and Mathematics.... or the space-ship? Bad space-ship!!!!! No chocolate biscuit for the space-ship!!!! Naughty, naughty, naughty!! Go into your room and don't come out till you've learnt to behave yourself!

tarotlova	28 Nov 2004
The cards have never let me down, I trust them implicitly and will not read them if I think my judgement might be clouded, I wait until my mind is clear which can be hard to do sometimes! Blessings

smokey	28 Nov 2004
Diana wrote: Bad space-ship!!!!! No chocolate biscuit for the space-ship!!!! Naughty, naughty, naughty!! Go into your room and don't come out till you've learnt to behave yourself! ROFLMAO!!! Point made, Diana. As usual,you've given me something to think about. The times I've questioned were more than likely when in one of my many burnt-out states,which (if that Were indeed the case, would certainly put nobody but me in the wrong.) However,these cases were so far back in the past, I couldn't arrive at a conclusion one way or another from lack of recall. Maybe I was just learning back then too,although I learn something else new all the time..Now, if Only I could Remember all that, lol!

Majecot	28 Nov 2004
Oh I definatley trust the tarot.. some times I do not trust myself to interpret them correctly, and I have been wrong at times. But when I listen..and sometimes it is only a whisper, it always tells me the truth. Over the years I have had tarot give me some astonishing news.. at the time, I say, oh what ever, or that makes no sense at all.. only to have something happen to make me say.. Oh so that is what you were trying to tell me. I have learned to listen to the whispers. :)

Osher	28 Nov 2004
Sometimes the Tarot can be 'wrong'. However, what is wrong can be right. Suppose it would be a very bad idea for you to know something, would the Tarot tell you? IOW, are the Tarot subservient to you, and follow your commands, or do they show you what you need to know, not necessarily what you want to know? If they always show you want you want to know, that makes them sunservient, it makes you the master, which is not something I agree with. My own view is that Tarot are a conduit. The Tarot themselves are not the answer givers. However, they are a way of linking into the greater conciousness.

gargoyle_guarded	28 Nov 2004
Majecot wrote: Oh I definatley trust the tarot.. some times I do not trust myself to interpret them correctly, and I have been wrong at times. But when I listen..and sometimes it is only a whisper, it always tells me the truth. Over the years I have had tarot give me some astonishing news.. at the time, I say, oh what ever, or that makes no sense at all.. only to have something happen to make me say.. Oh so that is what you were trying to tell me. I have learned to listen to the whispers. :) I totally agree with Majecot. Sometimes I am not clear on the intrepretations but I do feel the answers I am "meant" to see are always there. And paying attention to the whispers is the key. There was a time when I put my complete trust in the tarot and asked a very delicate question about a relationship I was having. The answer was always the same and it made me doubt the effectiveness of the tarot. It just didn't seem to make sense. Mainly because when I asked my partner (at the time) about it he simply said the cards were inaccurate, way off or just plain wrong. Yeah, well, I loved this person and I trusted him. I took his word over the messages from the cards and over my own gut instinct. Big mistake. He was lying the whole time and is now out of my life. So, I learned my lesson. Your heart, and your mind may lead you astray but your gut never will. And as a little side note...because I doubted the cards, there was a long time when I felt like they would not "speak" to me again. My readings basically sucked after that experience...for almost two whole months. :(

Major Tom	28 Nov 2004
Diana is right in this of course. ;) You can trust the Tarot and where the problems arise is with 'human error'. :laugh: God is Everything.

Moongold	28 Nov 2004
I think it depends on how people regard the Tarot. For some here, it is clearly simply another word for God. Major Tom is quite open about this and Diana frequently uses the term Tarot Gods. You don't actually define what you mean by *Tarot*, Firemaiden. I believe the Tarot is a medium through which the Divine speaks. I am uncertain as to how to define the Divine. My sense of that varies, but I think it is really important for each of us. The Tarot itself is simply a medium - a pack of cards with beautiful imagery. I could get photographs and ask the powers that be to speak to me through these. I could ask them to speak with me through a walk in the gardens or my dreams, and sometimes do. There are so many versions of Tarot. Which of the schools of Tarot is the most pure, the most sound? I can hear the arguments begin now. :D. No longer unterested in those arguments. The cards are beautiful images, containing something which touches and speaks to the deepest parts of my soul. This something allows me to see and understand things that I would otherwise be unable to do. I trust the Tarot, and the system around it, but I know it always operates through the veil of my humanity and the humanity of others. Ultimately the decisions I have to make about my life are mine alone.

Diana	28 Nov 2004
Moongold wrote: Major Tom is quite open about this and Diana frequently uses the term Tarot Gods . (But I have begun putting smilies in brackets like this one: ( :D ) when I use this term (no capital letters, just plain tarot gods), as I got the impression that some people thought I actually BELIEVED the tarot gods existed! (Some people will believe anything.) It's just a metaphor... (Now I'm off to climb the mountain where these tarot gods live - I have some questions to ask them about the Number Zero. See you guys when I get back down again.)

Major Tom	28 Nov 2004
Moongold wrote: I think it depends on how people regard the Tarot. For some here, it is clearly simply another word for God. Major Tom is quite open about this and Diana frequently uses the term Tarot Gods . I will caution those who would attempt to interpret what I say. :laugh: Sure, Moongold, Tarot is God. But then, so are you. ;) What would you do if you were God? And so it shall be - for you. :laugh: Where should faith begin - or is should that be end? Do you believe in yourself? I think these are fair questions for us all to ponder. I AM. God is Everything.

Moongold	28 Nov 2004
Major Tom wrote: I will caution those who would attempt to interpret what I say. :laugh: Sure, Moongold, Tarot is God.. Ah ~ but we are interpreters, no? I can only go on what you say. It ultimately matters only to you however. I don't believe that I am God, and although I have some sense of what you MIGHT mean, I am not sure and it is perhaps only semantic. God may be in each of us. That does not make us God, in my humble opinion. However, this is not the point for me. Blessings :)

Umbrae	28 Nov 2004
Diana wrote: I have some questions to ask them about the Number Zero. But but but I thought that zero was not a number... Seriously...tarot is never wrong. We are (and perhaps more often than we admit)... (it's the beauty of a journal - you can go back months or years later and read old spreads and say, "What was I thinking...If I'd have shut-up long enough for the rest of my being to see what was in front of me...instead I went on and on about the symbolism of some flower and missed the whole point...") And you know how I always tell folks to both burn the books and read in public for strangers (with or without candy)... Can't do it without faith (or trust) in the cards...and in yourself...and in your ability to interact with the cards... There is no book that teaches that...

noby	28 Nov 2004
firemaiden wrote: When the cards say what I want to hear, I often chuck them aside and say, no no, they are just telling me what I want to hear, they are telling me what my dreams are. When they tell me something negative or frightening, I sometimes give them more credence, as misery feels more "realistic". Yeah, I definitely experience that same perspective. I came to the tarot with quite a skeptic's point of view on the cards, which I still retain to some degree, which is that they simply function as projection tools which can give one insight into a problem/situation by getting one thinking about it from different perspectives and therefore "short-circuiting" conditioned ways of thinking and approaching things. However, as I have worked more and more with the tarot, the degree of insight I have gotten from using the cards, things I could not have come up with solely by thinking through things analytically, has opened me up quite a bit to other possibilities: synchronicity, magic, intuition. I find myself thinking, "it seems there is more to this than simple projection." I feel like the cards have become a tool which lets me tap into subtle information which is subconscious and nonverbal. I have become more open to the idea of "psychic" activity and what is meant by "magic." However, I am very skeptical by nature and very rigorous in testing and re-testing, examining and re-examining, my beliefs and how I interpret my experiences. I find myself questioning if I have simply come to believe these things because they feel good, or am interpreting things in a certain "magical" way when there is a better, more accurate interpretation. The battle between faith rooted in experience and doubt rooted in understanding of the human mind and its limitations rages on, and I doubt it will ever lead to a solid, unshakable conclusion either way... and I like it that way. We stagnate when we no longer examine what we believe and how we see. :OL :SL :CL :WL Currently, I'm in the midst of a "crisis of faith" of sorts when it comes to the tarot "intuited awareness of subtle information VS. projection" debate. I recently laid out a spread inquiring into the status, nature, and trend towards outcome of a romantic relationship I've been in which is currently on the rocks. There is much in the spread which deals with how to approach the situation which makes sense to me regardless of outcome, and which reflects how I feel about how it needs to be approached. But the spread strongly suggests that the relationship is not over and that we are not breaking up, though everything except the cards strongly suggests to me that it's over, unsalvageable. When all is said and done, the outcome will certainly have an effect on how I see the cards. If we do break up, I can see the cards as a reflection of what I wanted to believe on some level, while if we don't, I can see the cards as reflecting something I otherwise could not have known and did not believe at the time. :OL :SL :CL :WL Of course, the ability of the human mind to twist and bend things into different interpretations means that anyone can look at a spread which suggested some sort of outcome after the outcome has already come to pass, and if the outcome and the original interpretation of what the cards were saying are different, one can use the "Hindsight = 20/20" Law and see how the cards could have been interpreted differently to suggest the outcome that really did occur. When this happens, it can equally be used as evidence that the cards really are just projection tools which reflect the interpretation we're looking for or already believe at the time, or that the cards were right all along and we just didn't know how to interpret them. The former suggests against any mystical or magical quality of the cards (at least to me), while the latter suggests the cards have a certain power as divination tools, and any error in interpreting them comes from one's lack of skill as a diviner.

tmgrl2	28 Nov 2004
When I read for myself.... If I move into "lateral thinking," that is, if I find just one nugget of direction or guidance that I hadn't thought about before, And if, upon reflection, it seems that there is something I need to do as a result of that "piece" of information I may not have "seen" otherwise, I act upon it .... I also do this if someone else reads for me. I feel that if I walk away with one little gem of information or guidance that wasn't at a conscious level, but feels as though it is something I should look at, do, think about, act on....then the "Tarot Gods" have given me what I was looking for when I did the reading. Of course, I grumble and grouse at times, about what I think is a "lousy draw," or jump up and down with delight when I love the "draw," but, in the end, I still look for one thing that will help me to grow in any area of my life. No other expectations from the Tarot. So far, the cards have not disappointed me in this. terri (Also, I don't even need to know or understand how Tarot works, as long as it helps...but I do believe there is something sacred in the our desire to seek to connect with something higher, or deeper within...and I find the Tarot is a marvelous tool).

noby	28 Nov 2004
tmgrl2 wrote: Also, I don't even need to know or understand how Tarot works, as long as it helps... Well put! That's why even when I become doubtful about how the cards work, or one perspective I've settled into becomes challenged, it never becomes something which would spur me to throw the cards out... however they work, they do work.

Majecot	28 Nov 2004
Umbrae wrote: Seriously...tarot is never wrong. We are (and perhaps more often than we admit)... (it's the beauty of a journal - you can go back months or years later and read old spreads and say, "What was I thinking...If I'd have shut-up long enough for the rest of my being to see what was in front of me...instead I went on and on about the symbolism of some flower and missed the whole point...") Yes yes.. this is exactly what I am talking about, not being able to see the forest for the trees! How many times I wrote in my pathetic excuse of a journal, such a reading, then to go back much later and say exactly that" what the hell was I thinking" or to look back at a reading even years later and say" Why did I not listen to what they were telling me". (thank goodny friend keeps a better journal than I do, or I might never have known sometimes what I was thinking..lol) Sometimes they have to bludgeon me over the head before I listen.. but inevitably they were right, if I had only listened in the first place.

Ravenswing	28 Nov 2004
That's one way I look at the cards-- thay're a mirror. Of me, of the world, my thoughts and my feelings, my inner-- my outer. But mirrors sometimes distort a bit-- you find yourself going through the fun-house hall of mirrors. Sometimes they're crystal clear and sharper than "real" life, like a crisp morning mountain lake at dawning. Sometimes you have to wipe them off so you can see in them after a hot shower. Mirror, mirror on the wall... as Alice steps through a glass darkly. fly well Raven

Phoenix Rising	28 Nov 2004
I always remember a very experienced reader saying "The cards don't lie" Tarot is a extension of our subconscious(Where God resides)it knows everything. So our God is directing and guiding us when shuffling, and choosing the cards. But definitely the accuracy is determined on the interpretation...so then we have to work with the conscious mind, which can get things a little muddled up. So in reality folks we're not giving power to the tarot..but to our God that is directing them. The Medium! And I think if we keep this in mind, then we will begin to trust it alot more. Unless of course you don't trust God!~ So then we can take the advice of our subconscious and decide to change it if we wish. So we will always be in control of our destinies. Self Empowerment!

fairyhedgehog	28 Nov 2004
noby wrote: When this happens, it can equally be used as evidence that the cards really are just projection tools which reflect the interpretation we're looking for or already believe at the time, or that the cards were right all along and we just didn't know how to interpret them. Absolutely! I believe that the cards are just projection tools. But I often feel as if there is more to them than that, perhaps I sometimes act as if they are more than that. I think it is because I am human and that is how humans behave! Like the way we anthromorphosise (is that the word?) our cars and other non-sentient things.

Moongold	28 Nov 2004
fairyhedgehog wrote: Absolutely! I believe that the cards are just projection tools. But I often feel as if there is more to them than that, perhaps I sometimes act as if they are more than that. I think it is because I am human and that is how humans behave! Like the way we anthromorphosise (is that the word?) our cars and other non-sentient things. How interesting. What is the difference between "projection" and one's own internal wisdom? (The God within). Perhaps projection is more laden with attachment? If one was in a state of "detached contemplation" or "concentration without effort" (Meditations on the Tarot), projections would be OK.

elysgrl	28 Nov 2004
I first picked up a deck of tarot cards about a month ago, feeling open toward the possibility that they might "work" but in the back of my mind feeling that it was probably all projection. That opinion changed with my very first spread. I was wowed from the get-go, and immediately realized that there was a bit of magic going on here. By that I mean that yes, I believe with all my heart and soul that the Divine Consciousness (basically a less scary term for God) speaks to us through the cards. If I thought that I was simply projecting my own subconscious thoughts onto randomly thrown cards, I would lose interest very quickly. Now if you believe that our personal subconscious and the Divine Consciousness are one and the same, then you're essentially agreeing that the placement of the cards is guided by a higher power, albeit one that lives within us. My belief is more that our pure subconscious knows the "right" interpretation of the cards, but that the guidance itself comes from a power that is bigger and encompasses more than just our own inner selves. Otherwise, how does the tarot know the motivations of other people in our lives? How does the tarot pick up on outside events, things I couldn't possibly know, not even subconsciously? Is this making any sense? LOL. If we're not receiving divine guidance, concerned for our highest good, then what's the point? Blessings, Denise

Cocobird55	28 Nov 2004
I believe that the tarot shows me options and possibilities that I would not otherwise thought of myself. I find that this is very valuable, especially in areas of my life that aren't working all that well. If I continue to do things in the same ways, I get the same results. Tarot is a powerful tool to make positive changes in my life, just by showing me alternatives. To me, that in itself is magic, and I believe in it. Sue

Ace	28 Nov 2004
Majecot wrote: Oh I definatley trust the tarot.. some times I do not trust myself to interpret them correctly, and I have been wrong at times. But when I listen..and sometimes it is only a whisper, it always tells me the truth. Over the years I have had tarot give me some astonishing news.. at the time, I say, oh what ever, or that makes no sense at all.. only to have something happen to make me say.. Oh so that is what you were trying to tell me. I have learned to listen to the whispers. :) Well said, Majecot! think of the tarot as a photo taken by a camera. Did you know that Photo's are not admissable as evidence at in a court of law? that is because the possibility remains that the prospective makes it look different that it is or that the viewer may not see the whole story. The tarot tells you what is there NOW. Not what will be but what is there NOW. It will show you options if you ask, but NOT what will happen for sure. So, we interpret what information we get and maybe get it wrong (see the thread Osher started about 3 readings he got about a girl. They all said the same thing about her, but each reader added a different spin on what WILL happen if he goes ahead). Or we ask the wrong question. So be careful what you ask for. The answer may not be about the question you really want to know about. I trust the cards. It is tough to do sometimes-especially if they are telling me what I DON'T want to hear, but I trust the cards to speak the truth. they always do.

VGimlet	28 Nov 2004
I believe in the tarot all the time. Like the time I told Ken his co-worker would bring her quarentined baby (first time, freaked out parents) to work the next day. He went to work, and told his other co-workers, and they said, "No way". And then at lunch, guess who showed up. :D And sometimes it gives me a heads up for things that could happen. If I get a reading that says I'll loose my temper and it will cause bad things to happen, I might think about that before I get mad. And if I tell Ken to be extra aware because I think he could be in a wreck, maybe it unconsiously makes him a little extra alert when he's driving. And, like everyone, sometimes I just don't see what was going on until later. It could be said it's all just coincidence. But, what is coincidence, really? A whole philosophical book right there, LOL. I don't know why it works for sure - I'm just glad it works for me, and those I read for.

Vincent	28 Nov 2004
Moongold wrote: How interesting. What is the difference between "projection" and one's own internal wisdom? (The God within). The main difference is that projection does not require the presence of a supernatural being, to exist. Projection, as regards Tarot, is when an interpretation of the symbols, or sets of symbols, on a Tarot card is coloured and shaded by our own inner fears, desires, or prejudices. Like a Rorschach inkblot test. Some people see some problems with this approach to Tarot and divination, others recommend it. Crowley mentions the problems in Magick in Theory and Practice; "Divination affords excellent practice for those who aspire to that exalted eminence, for the faintest breath of personal preference will deflect the needle from the pole of truth in the answer. Unless the diviner have banished utterly from his mind the minutest atom of interest in the answer to his question, he is almost certain to influence that answer in favour of his personal inclinations. The psycho-analyst will recall the fact that dreams are phantasmal representations of the unconscious Will of the sleeper, and that not only are they images of that Will instead of representations of objective truth, but the image itself is confused by a thousand cross-currents set in motion by the various complexes and inhibitions of his character. If therefore one consults the oracle, one must take sure that one is not consciously or unconsciously bringing pressure to bear upon it." Moongold wrote: Perhaps projection is more laden with attachment? If one was in a state of "detached contemplation" or "concentration without effort" (Meditations on the Tarot), projections would be OK. Yes, you would, but then it wouldn't be projection, it would be something else. Vincent

Emerald	28 Nov 2004
I trust the tarot, it is my interpretation that I sometimes do not trust. Sometimes I think I am too emotionally involved to look at the cards objectively. Also when reading you may have something uppermost on your mind but the cards may be telling you about something else and you just may not see it. I have to admit they have given me some very good advice.

VegasGeorge	29 Nov 2004
I think of the Tarot as representing archetypal forces that are always at work in the background underlying reality. Forces Good and Evil, Spiritual and Temporal, Venal and Moral. The cards remind me of the constant interplay of those forces, directing my attention to the relationships among them. There can be no "wrong" card.

firemaiden	29 Nov 2004
VegasGeorge wrote: There can be no "wrong" card. Hi VegasGeorge :) How refreshing to read this. I think this is what makes tarot "work".

jmd	29 Nov 2004
Is the original question about Tarot, or about our belief and views of it? If the latter, then we begin to discuss our views and belief about our views and belief... if the former, it is not so much how or whether we believe 'in' Tarot, but rather reflects our views OF Tarot. For the latter, I personally wholeheartedly agree with the substance of VegasGeorge's post... with one qualification below. Wonderfully for me, I was contemplating how to make a response in this thread when I noted his. The sole qualification is in what is possibly meant by 'archetypal', which I take in its Goethenean, not Jungian, sense.

Teranar	29 Nov 2004
This thread has gone extremely deep, deeper than I think. Do I trust tarot? Absoultely, without any mistrust. Any errors are always ALWAYS my fault. (Bad Teranar!) What do I define tarot as? I just pipe out Gypsy magic and leave it at that. Sometimes looking at something simply unravels many mysteries.

NightWing	29 Nov 2004
MoonGold said it much more eloquently early on this thread. But I will rise in support. The Tarot cards are not "magic" or "divine" in and of themselves. They are but a tool, that has evolved, and continues to evolve, with human experience. They are a way we can focus more clearly on truths we already hold within ourselves, sometimes buried quite deeply. A small number of people can essentially do the same thing (access the ground of Truth within themselves) without cards or any physical aid at all. But most of us need assistance, and that is where tarot as a tool comes in. Or so I believe.

Diana	29 Nov 2004
NightWing wrote: The Tarot cards are not "magic" or "divine" in and of themselves. They are but a tool, that has evolved, and continues to evolve, with human experience. You speak of Tarot cards. But what about Tarot? Would Tarot not be in the realm of the "divine"? After all, we use it for "divination", don't we.... although as lesser beings of the universe, we need those crude cardboard and ink objects called cards to tap into The Tarot. I always get confused here on Aeclectic when people talk of "Tarot" and then start talking about "Tarot cards". It happens so frequently. Firemaiden's thread said "how much do you "believe" in the tarot"? Not "in tarot cards". Are we all sure we're talking of the same thing here? It's one of the most frustrating things here on Aeclectic... we have never been able to define some words, so we are often talking at cross-purposes. To me there's a big difference between a pack of tarot cards, and The Tarot. (But that doesn't mean I am not extremely fond of my cards. But I could live without them if I had to. You could take away my cards... but The Tarot, you could never take from me. You would have to tear out my heart.. and my soul first.)

Moongold	29 Nov 2004
Diana wrote: (But I have begun putting smilies in brackets like this one: ( ) when I use this term (no capital letters, just plain tarot gods), as I got the impression that some people thought I actually BELIEVED the tarot gods existed! (Some people will believe anything.) It's just a metaphor... (Now I'm off to climb the mountain where these tarot gods live - I have some questions to ask them about the Number Zero. See you guys when I get back down again.) Diana wrote: You speak of Tarot cards. But what about Tarot? Would Tarot not be in the realm of the "divine"? After all, we use it for "divination", don't we.... although as lesser beings of the universe, we need those crude cardboard and ink objects called cards to tap into The Tarot . ....... ......... You could take away my cards... but The Tarot, you could never take from me. You would have to tear out my heart.. and my soul first.) So Diana ~ What is the meaning of your metaphors "Tarot Gods" and "Tarot"? . Are these words you use for "God", for the "Divine"? I have always thought they may be but I'm just keen to be clear. I see the Tarot as a way by which I access the Divine whereas you see the Tarot itself as the Divine?

Diana	29 Nov 2004
Moongold wrote: So Diana ~ What is the meaning of your metaphors "Tarot Gods" and "Tarot"? . Are these words you use for "God", for the "Divine"? I have always thought they may be but I'm just keen to be clear. I see the Tarot as a way by which I access the Divine whereas you see the Tarot itself as the Divine? Tarot gods is a joke. (But don't tell anyone - it may disappoint them to know they don't exist.) But it's not really a joke. What it means to me is that there is obviously stuff I do not understand about the Tarot. As SOMEONE obviously does, because they put the darn information into the cards - all the symbolism and allegories and what-not - I call this "someone" or "someones" the tarot gods. A metaphor for the wisdom that someone (the tarot gods ( :D ) perhaps???) whispered into the ears of the Ancients. (Ancients, as in "the wise old men of old". And when I mean "wise", I mean "wise", not just smart.) The Tarot is the perfect structure, the perfect wisdom, the perfect truth that I sense behind the images in the cards. That I sense within the images of the cards. The Tarot is a messenger... (I am talking here only of the Tarot of Marseilles - it is not for lack of trying, nor of good-will, but I cannot glimpse this perfection in any other deck of so-called "tarot" cards, however interesting, clever and pretty they may be.) The Tarot is not the Divine. Apart from being a messenger, it is a perfect EXPRESSION of an important facet of the Divine. It is an expression that in someway must mirror me as well... because when I gaze into its deep pools of wisdom, I see something that resembles something I must have looked like at least a million billion years ago, before the "fall". And I am in awe of what I COULD be... and what I WAS... and what I WILL be.... maybe... (and maybe... just maybe... but this would be almost too much to hope for... what I AM.) Before the Tarot, I was. Before I was, was the Tarot.... And before the Tarot and me.... I don't know what was. That is another story.

VegasGeorge	29 Nov 2004
jmd wrote: The sole qualification is in what is possibly meant by 'archetypal', which I take in its Goethenean, not Jungian, sense. Hi jmd! I did a little research on your "qualification." This is what I found: Goethe relegates much that had previously been termed "symbolism" to the "allegorical" and privileges the symbolic as the poetic power that is able not merely to refer to the universal but actually to embody it in the particular. He enunciates this distinction clearly in number 751 of his Maxims and Reflections: It makes all the difference whether the poet seeks the particular for the universal or sees the universal in the particular. Out of the former mode arises allegory, where the particular serves only as an instance, an example of the universal; the latter, however, is really the nature of poetry: it speaks forth a particular, without thinking of the universal or pointing to it. (Werke 12:471) Indeed, the symbolic is able to generate the universal out of the particular "as the seed generates the plant or the poem such interpretations as we make of it. This is the sense in which the particular contains" (Adams 19). Thus Goethe's claim that "true symbolism is where the particular represents the more universal, not as dream and shadow, but rather as a living-fleeting [lebendig-augenblicklich] revelation of the inscrutable." The allegorical, on the other hand, "destroys the interest in the representation itself and drives the spirit back into itself, so to speak, and removes from its eyes what is actually represented" (Werke 12-471), draining out "the precious individuality of things in the process" (Adams 57). Does that coincide with your understanding of Goethe's theory of symbols? Frankly, I never looked at Goethe's ideas on this subject before. I'm still trying to digest it. I like his "living-fleeting revelation of the inscrutable," description. It sounds right, but I think it has to occur at a below-conscious level (i.e. Jungian level), else it would be scrutable, would it not? Vegas

NightWing	30 Nov 2004
Diana: I think I see what you mean about the ambiguity of terms; in this case, the distinction between Tarot as a concept, and the objects we use called Tarot cards. But I think we are fated to disagree here. I DO think there is an overarching IDEA of Tarot, a kind of Platonic ideal form of Tarot that transcends any particular Tarot deck. In fact, instinctively we seem to know this, inasmuch as we continue to seek for the "perfect" deck, and never quite find it. But I think of Tarot still as a tool, material or not. And the evidence of this for me is in the fact of all the other oracles and methods of accessing what we might call the Divine, or the Ground of Being, or God (or whatever). These include forms of prayer, meditation, runes, worship, and so on. Tarot is A WAY, but surely not THE ONLY WAY. Tarot might be MY PATH and YOUR PATH, but obviously is not the one and ONLY PATH. I see it as one tool amongst many that a person might choose from. Like any good tool, Tarot can be very useful, but has its limitations, as any human construct does. I've never heard anyone claim that Tarot was handed down to us by God/Goddesses/Divinity and so is somehow ultimate in its nature! Or have I been missing something?

Diana	30 Nov 2004
NightWing wrote: Tarot is A WAY, but surely not THE ONLY WAY. Tarot might be MY PATH and YOUR PATH, but obviously is not the one and ONLY PATH. I see it as one tool amongst many that a person might choose from. Like any good tool, Tarot can be very useful, but has its limitations, as any human construct does. I've never heard anyone claim that Tarot was handed down to us by God/Goddesses/Divinity and so is somehow ultimate in its nature! Or have I been missing something? OMG. Did my post give the impression that I thought Tarot was THE WAY? Shucks. My writing skills are much worse than I thought. :( God no.... I not even sure I believe in a "God" or a "Divinity". And I certainly do not relate to anything "Goddess" which I find a most strange term indeed. But I do believe in Wisdom. And I believe that one can find Wisdom in the Tarot. Not the ULTIMATE Wisdom... I don't even know what the heck that would be. Human beings are far too low down on the universal scale to even hope to even grasp the notion of ULTIMATE Wisdom if it exists. Poor little humans - we are pitiful sometimes. I bet you that you and I agree more than we know. I just have problems expressing myself. I'm not a nut-case, you know. As to looking for the perfect deck. I found it years ago. That is one thing I do not have to seek. I do not share in any frenzy of new decks coming out, my bank account is safe, and I do not celebrate in any -aholisms - taro-oholic or other. (I do think some new decks are interesting, but they do not make me weak at the knees.)

jmd	30 Nov 2004
...to refer to my previous post, and reply to VegasGeorge's question, it is precisely this sense of embodiment of the archetypal in the particular to which I refer. A much earlier post in which I sought (perhaps not well at all, and perhaps too caricatured) to outline distinctions between the various senses of 'archetypal' was in a post in the thread What drives Tarot - Image or Archetype?. In many ways, this is also very much the 'wisdom seeking its expression in the perfect deck' - whether or not we recognise it when and if we have 'found' it.

Alice23	01 Dec 2004
Hi. Bit of a newbie to the board but have been reading through everyone's comments and my spin on it is that we can ALL change our own destiny.The cards can come up with something and we might not want to hear it(i've done this many a time and made myself not see it) but theres always a chance for change, good or bad, and i think sometimes thats one of the big messages of the tarot itself. Some of the people i've read for see the tarot as being able to 'forsee' the future, to tell them whether they're going to be married, have children, whether that job's going to work out....and myself included have done this...there's no doubt that the tarot does this but its more of a tool of our own sub consciousness if that makes sense, rather than just a tool to tell our future...anybody agree? I do also think that there is a tendency to take more notice of the cards sometimes than we should, have done this myself countless times, usually when im overemotional and want an answer right there, right then, and if i get a bad one, i either take too much notice of this and think christ, now what, or i try and ignore it completely. Usually when i do this though, as if almost to make a point, the same card keeps coming out or flying out of the pack constantly.....see that as a i should have listened the first time! Just my opinion on things, and yes, in one way, the cards are just ink and writing and paper, but for those 3 things they have a lot to tell us and a heck of a lot of the time(though not always)very accurate. Alice x

Flavio	01 Dec 2004
As other members had stated I do believe in Tarot to provide always the right cards, from that point is reader's responsibility to get the right "traslation" of what the cards want to say. I wrote the earliest readings for myself and interpretation I gave at that moment (everything is in the Journal :D) I've seen those old readings with new eyes (and knowledge) and get much more information of what I got at that time and they still are the same cards! As for reading for other people who are obviously closed to the reading or in denial I do rather believe what the cards say, no the half-truth or the lies the querent want to tell, at those moments I don't mean to be agressive, but if cards are clearly speaking, I don't think is right to follow the denial game of the querent, after all the querent came to get useful answers and I committed to do my best.

Kath	01 Dec 2004
My rational mind keeps telling me that they are just cards: cardboard with ink. Don’t put too much faith in them. Don’t base major decisions on what they say. Use your head, that’s what it’s there for. The cards are just ‘fun’. Yet, I read for people and they are astonished by what the cards say. I read for myself and it makes sense; out of 78 cards, that particular card came up in that particular position. Tarot tells me something will happen, and I say ‘no it won’t’, and then it does. All these things make me believe. I do readings for minor and major events, seeking guidance. I kid myself, saying I base my decisions on rationality and logic. But do I really? I seek guidance, support and reassurance from ‘cardboard with ink’. Are they ever wrong? Yes, sometimes. But usually it’s the inconsequential things. I ask questions to ‘test’ the tarot. I guess they don’t like being tested. They say ‘you either believe or you don’t. I don’t need to prove anything to you.’ In the end, I believe.

SunChariot	02 Dec 2004
Moonbow* wrote: I believe in the Tarot, as much as I believe in myself..... I believe that the cards themselves hold all the answers we need, because we already have all the answers anyway, spam gets in the way of us thinking clearly sometimes, and the cards help us to 'remember' and bring out of storage what is already there. Yes, sometimes I read the cards for myself and I am seeing what I want to see, so I put that down to not really needing the reading in the first place. But, like you said, the times when they take you aback and make you gasp, are the times to listen to them carefully...... but not necessarily live by them - just listen and remember. What Moonbow said. :-) I guess I believe in Tarot as much as I believe in myself and sometimes "spam gets in my way". I only started 6 months ago. But I was going along happily for months and months learning all kinds of amazing and magical things, and I was sure. And seeing all kinds of amazing synchronicities popping up in my life, which I found completely magical and beautiful. Then someone came along and put some doubt in my mind, saying you can't read accurately for yourself (I only read for myself), and suddenly my calm and certainty was shattered. That started a mini-crisis in faith (about 1-2 weeks worth). Of course for with anything spiritual, for it to work you do have to have faith that it will. But I never really lost my faith completely, so I just did a couple more Tarot readings on the topic of faith and that kind of thing, and how I could trust my results more. They were very helpful, and also during that time it was like the Universe kept sending me signs :-) Like in the middle of my "faith" reading along came the monthy edition of my Tarot newsletter. And the subject of it that month stated clearly in no uncertain terms that you can definitely read for yourself...and in that same newsletter was a montly horoscope telling me just exactly what my past Tarot readings had said, which I had started to doubt. And I knew that I had not influenced that newsletter in any way. And that it was not a mere coincidence that I had gotten that newsletter just when I needed it. And there you go, crisis averted. My faith is back. And stronger than ever.:-) And for me anyway, it has been like that since the first, if I start to waiver in my faith, the universe seems to keep sending me signs to get me back on track:-) Seems to be my destiny to follow this path, because I love it so, and because if I ever wander off the path, something comes right along to put me back on. :-) Bar

SunChariot	02 Dec 2004
Physically tarot cards are "cardboard with ink" butthey are not just that. The images reach our subconscious and let us reach something truly magical. :-) Bar

WalesWoman	03 Dec 2004
All I can say is Tarot blows me away sometimes...I think I'm reading something and it makes sense, then something comes along from left field and is really what the cards in the spread were about...I just couldn't see it at the time because I am a POST cognative, my hind sight is always 20/20. I've had it happen to me two or three times in the past few weeks to hammer the point home, things that didn't quite catch my attention or were things I'd never dream of... such as some of the cards that showed up in Scyth Spread, thinking it meant somethings I needed to get rid of and a murder of a local woman happened instead, then in my 3rd house Astro twist and the sudden loss of the internet, and just as fast return of it... I can't explain it, but it is making me more and more a believer and less dubious. Now if I could just get faster on the uptake.

The reprise: how much do you "believe" in the tarot? thread was originally posted on 28 Nov 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.