Which tarot cards suggest the client is gay or bisexual?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 25 Nov 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

gargoyle_guarded	25 Nov 2004
Does anyone have any advice or information on which tarot card(s) suggest that the client you are reading for is gay or bisexual? Using the wrong pronouns really doesn't sit well with some clients.

MarkMcElroy	25 Nov 2004
When reading for the public, I try to avoid making assumptions about my clients' sexual orientation. I usually refer to my clients' "partner," which turns out to be a workable, gender-free term that everyone understands. I also say things like "when you're dating someone..." instead of "when you're dating a guy..." You get the idea. Good questions about card indicators, though. Again and again, when I'm reading with the standard Rider-Waite-Smith deck (or a clone), the 3 of Cups seems to turn up in association with all kinds of alternative relationships. That said, I wouldn't ever see that card in a spread and say, "Ah, you're a homosexual, aren't ya?" :) Once, when I was reading for the public using a Robin Wood deck, that shirtless guy in a kilt turned up (isn't he on the Seven of Wands?), and a male client murmured, "I'd go out with him any day!" Since then, whenever that card turns up in a reading for a male, I grin.

RedMaple	25 Nov 2004
MarkMcElroy wrote: When reading for the public, I try to avoid making assumptions about my clients' sexual orientation. I usually refer to my clients' "partner," which turns out to be a workable, gender-free term that everyone understands. I also say things like "when you're dating someone..." instead of "when you're dating a guy..." You get the idea. Good questions about card indicators, though. Again and again, when I'm reading with the standard Rider-Waite-Smith deck (or a clone), the 3 of Cups seems to turn up in association with all kinds of alternative relationships. That said, I wouldn't ever see that card in a spread and say, "Ah, you're a homosexual, aren't ya?" :) Once, when I was reading for the public using a Robin Wood deck, that shirtless guy in a kilt turned up (isn't he on the Seven of Wands?), and a male client murmured, "I'd go out with him any day!" Since then, whenever that card turns up in a reading for a male, I grin. Good suggestions. I would never make assumptions about a querent's sexual preference, but try to use gender-neutral language choices when I can. I've seen the 3 cups appear in the way you describe. I've also had the Hierophant reversed, depending on the spread etc., indicate an unconventional relationship.

HudsonGray	25 Nov 2004
Partner is a good word, or 'your love'. You can also use something like 'this other person' and 'they', just avoiding the whole he/she entirely. Or right off the bat you can say "he? she?" looking up at the other with raised eyebrows and a question in your voice. Then go from what they indicate and give a little nod. It would depend on the situation, the reading & the clientelle (young people are ok with questions like that moreso than the older generation). Use what feels right, I guess. If you can keep it more remote, pronoun-wise, and it doesn't sound weird, then stick with that.

cheekyminx	26 Nov 2004
Does it really matter what the person’s sexual orientation is? Of course not, the best way to phrase things would be to say your partner, your other half, the person you're seeing....oh lots of things one could say. For some reason the devil came to mind, in terms of bi-sexuality A good example of this is when my housemate had his cards read and the lady had a Queen laid out on the table and told Paul that he would meet a lady that was a water sign bla bla and Paul smirked and said "Nah, that would be a man, I'm gay" the lady laughed and said well that explains it ;) Queens can come up for gay men, just as much as a King can come up for a Lesbian, straight men can have a King or Knight in their reading, just as often as I get Queens in my reading.....these cards are depicting a persons personality and star sign or element not a persons "gender" so to speak :) (jmd clarified this for me a few days back)

Cielo	26 Nov 2004
Hmmm this is interesting! I have had the Emperor reversed show up as a sign of bi sexuality, but I can see how the Queen might fit also! :) I also prefer to leave gender of partner out of the reading except in cases where the whole sexual identity is the core of conflict in the reading. Blessings Cielo

Little Baron	26 Nov 2004
I have absolutley no idea why but often, the Page of Swords (Rohrig) and Page of Cups (RWS) have suggested 'being gay' in the past. Yabs

Pebbles	26 Nov 2004
Sometimes the fool.

Paul	26 Nov 2004
I agree with the use of gender-neutral language espoused thus far to avoid presuming anything. Just to be clear, sexual orientation and gender identity and gender expression are separate train tracks, so to speak. Moreoever, being gay or lesbian does not mean dissatisfaction with one's gender or identity with another gender. Finally, the spectrum of gender expression runs through all sexual orientations, straight or otherwise. Fear not. ;) The point I'm making is that there are plenty of King-like gay men and Queen-like lesbian women; so, I oersonally do not find that the court cards cards "flip flop" to show sexual orientation, because such is not a function of gender identity. So, how does this come up? I typically find 2 court cards indicating 2 people in a relationship according to their biological gender (King with King, QUeen with a Queen) and find another card in the sequence indicating that the sentence is speaking of a relationship matter. When I say "sentence" I mean that I read with the Tarot de Marseille, with a series of cards in a line in a sentence format. So the "gay/lesbian/bi" part of the sentence is indicated only by virtue of the subject matter. It's as if the "Tarot Gods" are simply unimpressed by the fact, per se, of sexual orientation, and just jabber away about the matter at hand regarding these two same-gender courts. Thus, in my work, the courts most often adhere to biological gender polarities, and the sexual orientation is implied. The exception is when the subject matter is coming-out or conflicts with sexual orientation, per se, with no particular relationship. In this case, Temperance indubitably appears, upright or reversed, depending on how well it's all going. Sometimes, Le Pape and Le Diable appear, indicating social/religious injunctions. However, I certainly respect all of the aforementioned experiences. I believe that the Tarot works with the mental milieu of the reader. So, the tarot works for me in this way because I expect it to.

gargoyle_guarded	26 Nov 2004
Ok, wow. This is the only discussion group I've ever been a part of so this is all new to me. I really wasn't expecting the amout of response that has been given. And let me tell you I greatly appreciate the input and thought everyone has put into this thread. Thank you all. Does anyone believe in "programming" your cards to tell you things? I'm not one to go with the tried, tested, and true if it doesn't make sense to me. For example, with The Witches Tarot Deck, I was not interested in the meanings provided in the book that accompanied this deck of cards. So, as stated in a previous thread - I've created my own meanings. And before I go any further... Cheekyminx asked what does it matter what someone's sexual preference is. That's a good question. To me, it does matter because I myself am a gay male. In the past, when I've had my cards read, I would have preferred if the reader came right out and said "this person you are going to fall in love with is a male..." or "the reason you had a difficult childhood is because you were struggling with issues of sexuality" etc. instead of dancing around the subject. It's been my experience that a good tarot reader is one who trusts what he/she sees and is unafraid to say so. Anyway, this is what I've come up with for the topic of sexuality when reading my cards. In The Witches Tarot, The Universe (The World) card shows a nude woman floating in the celestial sky. She is surrounded by what appears to be circles of personal energy. Also, there is a multi-colored scarf entwined around her body. She appears to be very free. This card, in its upright position, is now programmed as follows........ The Universe (U) combined with The Fool (R) suggests being bi-curious. The Universe (U) combined with The Moon (R) suggests being in the closet. The Universe (U) combined with The Stars (R) suggests being homophobic. The Universe (U) combined with The Stars (U) suggests being bisexual. The Universe (U) combined with The Magician (U) suggests being gay. I've chosen these cards because to me the fool reversed is not moving forward; the moon reversed is about lies, deception, illusions; the stars reversed is about a negative self-image, self-doubts; the stars upright is about mutual love or a love of two different things; the magician upright is about laying everything on the table, and saying "this is me, this is who I am". I've put a lot of energy into programming my cards in such a way that they'll "speak" to me. I'm sure some will disagree with my interpretations and that's ok. We're all here to learn and to teach. So, I'm open to feedback of all sorts. If anything, I've learned that different points of view (when received with an open mind) stimulate thought and thought is the basis of energy. gargoyle_guarded

Paul	26 Nov 2004
gargoyle_guarded wrote: Does anyone believe in "programming" your cards to tell you things? I'm not one to go with the tried, tested, and true if it doesn't make sense to me. For example, with The Witches Tarot Deck, I was not interested in the meanings provided in the book that accompanied this deck of cards. So, as stated in a previous thread - I've created my own meanings. gargoyle_guarded Indeed! Gareth Knight, in his books said it nicely, that the tarot is "ideoplastic," meaning, it uses the linguistic/metaphorical language of the reader first and foremost. Of course, there is Tradition and Jungian Archetypes and all that. For example, IV L'Empereur (Emperor RW) evokes similar oracular interpretations across readers; the meaning is not THAT plastic, so to speak. As for me, I read with the Tarot de Marseille; thus, the minors are unillustrated pips (although, unillustrated is a misnomer because the cards do have clues in their ornamentation. See the Tarot de Marseille section of the forum). More precisely, the TdM does not carry the typical Rider-Waite cartooned scenes. Therefore, I have synthesized my own sensible-system (sensible to me) to read the Minor & Major Arcana, based on tradition, numerology, astrology, etc. One could say, using your words, I have programmed the deck. It seems that you have taken your Witches Tarot and melded it well with your internal oracular language. Gargoyle_guarded , I call this "divinatory confidence".

Flavio	26 Nov 2004
gargoyle_guarded wrote: She appears to be very free. This card, in its upright position, is now programmed as follows........ The Universe (U) combined with The Fool (R) suggests being bi-curious. The Universe (U) combined with The Moon (R) suggests being in the closet. The Universe (U) combined with The Stars (R) suggests being homophobic. The Universe (U) combined with The Stars (U) suggests being bisexual. The Universe (U) combined with The Magician (R) suggests being gay. ... I've put a lot of energy into programming my cards in such a way that they'll "speak" to me. Great thread gargoyle_guarded, is getting very interesting!, I'm curious how do the programmed cards talk to you during a reading, do they appear in your spread? you ask them to describe your current querent? do you give those programmed cards to the querent to choose a pair as significator? This card programmation sounds like an interesting idea anyway.

Dstar	26 Nov 2004
The system of finding cards which together have a very definite and personal meaning is something I can relate to. I don't 'program' my cards, but over time and with experience, certain combinations have taken on very definite meaning. e.g. actual death, is something I need to be certain about when reading, so I have 3 cards which together, to me, represent that event. In 15 years of reading I have only once seen that combination in the future, thankfully...but often in the past and present. There are many others that I find have very definite meanings when they appear together...but I won't go into them. That said, I think that even tough these meanings are very personal, they still need to be based on a strong foundation, or things get out of hand. D.

Paul	26 Nov 2004
Dstar wrote: That said, I think that even tough these meanings are very personal, they still need to be based on a strong foundation, or things get out of hand. D. Yes, I agree. That's why I developed a synthetic system that synthesized long-worn traditions of numerology, astrology, etc. It's by drawing from such foundational antiquity that we develop our divinatory confidence and feel like we are participating in a larger family of readers, throughout time.

MeeWah	26 Nov 2004
I agree with Paul. Depending on the impressions prior to & during a reading, I prefer terms such as significant other, partner, love interest, companion & sometimes regardless of gender & etc. With one male co-worker who publicly referred to a girlfriend & whom I felt to be otherwise inclined, I was reviewing a lengthy reading that touched on his relationship during a work break. We were interrupted by other co-workers entering the room. In referring to his love interest, I used "significant other" rather than "girlfriend". From the expression on his face, evident he immediately understood I knew. Later, he sought me out to express his appreciation for my understanding & for preserving his privacy. He admitted to being in the closet & the reading experience reinforced his trust in letting me read for him. I do not see the court cards as gender-specific nor sexual-orientation- specific. In my readings for various clientele (& for whom I shuffled the cards in every instance), I have seen Pages & Queens represent the gay man; Knights & Kings for the lesbian--but those are *not* static. Kings & Queens also respectively represent them. Interestingly, I have also seen The Magician & The High Priestess to represent the gay man; The Emperor to represent the gay woman & all upright. Kings & Queens can respectively represent the straight female or male, so to see them does not mean the person is of a particular gender or sexual orientation. It seems to depend on the nature or basis of the query; those qualities characteristic or peculiar to the card &/or to the moment, needed or otherwise involved. Prior to a reading, I just knew a married male client as bi-sexual. The Emperor showed up reversed in a prominent position but do not recall the other cards. The impression he was bi-sexual & engaged in multiple liasons outside of marriage were correct.

gargoyle_guarded	26 Nov 2004
Flavio wrote: Great thread gargoyle_guarded, is getting very interesting!, I'm curious how do the programmed cards talk to you during a reading, do they appear in your spread? you ask them to describe your current querent? do you give those programmed cards to the querent to choose a pair as significator? This card programmation sounds like an interesting idea anyway. Hey Flavio. To answer your question about programming the cards....when I first started reading the tarot cards (for myself and for others) I used the Celtic Cross layout. After each reading, I recorded all of the cards in a tarot journal (simply list them from 1 - 10) along with the date and whatever impressions I had about the reading. After about one year of making entries, I realized what a great reference material this journal had become. I could look back at any point in time and check for consistencies in my own personal readings as well as readings I had done for others. What I found rather interesting was that two cards in particular kept appearing in my layouts when doing the Celtic Cross Spread for myself. These two cards were the Nine of Swords and the Eight of Swords (Reversed). The meaning of The Nine of Swords in my deck is "going over and over an issue with a need to focus on what is right in front of you". Despite the meaning I had chosen, I've always found that The Nine of Swords in my deck reminded me of blood pressure for some reason. The Eight of Swords in my deck means "unable or unwilling to move out of a situation for fear of getting hurt" and it shows four men moving in tight synchronicity. When the Eight of Swords in my deck is reversed the meaning to me is "freedom, possibilities, and a fresh start". But I found that the reversed meaning also suggested "something not being in synchronicity". As it turned out, four months after my car accident, eight medical tests, and several personal spreads later, I was diagnosed with Vasovagal Syncope. Basically, a big fancy name for what happens when you pass out before driving your car through a telephone pole. Anyway, these cards kept appearing in my personal layouts after my car accident and it wasn't until I was diagnosed with V.S. that I realized the multiple occurences of these two cards. This is how I've come to attribute these two cards together to mean Vasovagal Syncope. If you check the meaning of V.S. you will see that it talks about (simply stated) how your heart rate is not in synch with your blood pressure and how this can cause a loss of consciousness. So, it all makes sense to me. If two or more card meanings combined make sense to you, that's what it's all about. Make it so. Another way I have programmed my cards is to associate the Major Arcana cards with parts of the body. (You'll find many websites conflicting on which body parts go with which cards, but use your own judgement.) When reversed, the Major Arcana card combined with another card could indicate a possible problem with that area. Using the Emperor (R) and The Sun (R) together, I've "programmed" this combination to tell me there is a problem with the eyes in general or simply an eyesight problem. The Emperor deals with the Head, Brain, Face, and the EYES. And to me when the sun is not bright (reversed) then things are not so clear. Get it? Once I've "programmed" the cards, it's amazing how often the different combos will come up in a spread and be accurate and relevant to the client. I hope this helps Flavio.

horoskope88	26 Nov 2004
I connect the Devil XV with being in the closet--keeping yourself in the dark, hiding a "shameful" secret under a false exterior, not exposing the light. The Tower, then, signifies release, the revelation of coming out and the upheavel which so often accompanies it, the shattering of the false facade.

Lurea	27 Nov 2004
Interesting discussion. I'm making a note of some of these card meanings for the future. :D Gargoyle_guarded, one more good reason why I need to continue keeping up with my tarot journal!

gargoyle_guarded	27 Nov 2004
Just a quick entry with an apology for a previous entry. "The Universe (U) combined with The Magician (R) suggests being gay." THIS SHOULD HAVE READ..... "The Universe (U) combined with The Magician (U) suggests being gay." It was my intent that The Magician be in the upright position in this card combination and I have edited my original post to reflect this error. To me, being gay wasn't always easy while growing up. But it has taught me many valuable lessons which I believe allowed for some spiritual growth. Afterall, struggles are nature's way of strengthening. Therefore, I believe my sexuality is a very positive thing for me and I attempted to reflect this in the card combination I have chosen.

ros	27 Nov 2004
Devil reversed has worked for me. I read this some time ago on a Tarot site. A few days later I done a reading on a family member that has too much of everything. I shuffled the cards, cut and let him pull the cards. The first card over was the Devil reversed. I never said anything to him about this. Somehow it all fit and when I see the Devil reversed I always wonder if that's what it means in some way. I talk about being chained or devilish, you know. I don't know if he is gay or not, I would never ask, BUT I personally thinks he swings both ways.

Flavio	27 Nov 2004
gargoyle_guarded wrote: After about one year of making entries, I realized what a great reference material this journal had become. I could look back at any point in time and check for consistencies in my own personal readings as well as readings I had done for others. That is why to keep a journal, or at least a readings journal is recommended, I understand you took the time and thought to analyze everything in your journal. Quote: Another way I have programmed my cards is to associate the Major Arcana cards with parts of the body. (You'll find many websites conflicting on which body parts go with which cards, but use your own judgement.) I'd call it judgement and the language you share with your deck as a result of your good relationship with it. Quote: I hope this helps Flavio. Sure it helped, thank you very much for taking the time to answer in a very detailed and clear way.

closrapexa	28 Nov 2004
cheekyminx wrote: Does it really matter what the person’s sexual orientation is? Of course not, the best way to phrase things would be to say your partner, your other half, the person you're seeing....oh lots of things one could say. For some reason the devil came to mind, in terms of bi-sexuality I'm inclined to agree. When reading about such universal subjects like love it really makes no difference what the querents orientation is.

smokey	28 Nov 2004
I have to go with Closrapexa and Cheekyminx on this one, unless of course they have no qualms of bringing up the issue themselves.

closrapexa	28 Nov 2004
As a gay man myself, I have never ever, neither for myself or for others seen anyhting that related to this issue. Relationships are relationships whether the are man to man, woman to woman, man to woman or anything else. Neither am I militant about the whole thing, but seeing some one's sexuality as an issue to be dealt with doesn't really agree with me. Unless of course they are dealing with it, i.e, coming out. Then I may see the devil or some other "blockage" cards, but then it is about them, or their problem with their sexuality. And anyway, winding down from this rant. When I read for some one, it isn't really my business who they are sleeping with.

Kiama	28 Nov 2004
I read a lot for neo-Pagans, and they tend to be a very open-minded bunch when it comes to sexual orientation. They usually are bisexual, bi-curious, lesbian, or gay, so I am constantly reading for people who's sexual orientation may not be 'straight'. I've found it easiest in readings for people I know to simply use the term 'he/she', without the question in my voice. Some people don't want to tell me, even if I'm a close friend, and I would not want to put them in an uncomfortable situation where they felt they had to tell me. Anyway, I don't think the gender of the love interest concerned has any bearing on the reading whatsoever, so it wouldn't matter to me in the long-run whether they were after guys or girls. Or nobody - I've read for an asexual before. (A very interesting experience indeed!) I also do not see any of the cards as giving any clues to sexual orientation, especially not the Courts. As Meewah, I do not see the Courts as referring to gender anyway, but personality types, and here's where an exception to my just-stated rule comes in... From doing many many many love-life readings for my gay best friend and housemate, I have found that many of the men in question are Queen of Swords characters. For some reason, maybe because they are out on the Cardiff Gay Scene, which is notoriously cliquey, bitchy, etc, they tend to get the Queen of Swords to signify them (though in her negative aspects as the gossip and bitch-queen, etc.) However, I would not inverse this and draw the conclusion that the Queen of Swords can be interpreted to indicate a gay man on the Scene. The Tarot is not prone to generalizations, and neither should Tarot readers be when it comes to people. However, I do feel the cards can be applied to a question about sexual orientation, e.g. "Should I tell my family?" or "I'm confused about my sexuality, help!" For instance, I did a reading for another gay friend with the first question, and the 6 of Cups came up, which I interpreted as his parent's reaction- to them, he would always be their little boy, an asexual being, so it may seem very odd to them at first to have to let go of that image and recognize him as a full sexual adult man, who just so happens to love men. There were also cards that indicated the need for honesty in the situation, and the possibility that if he didn't tell them now, he'd have a hard time doing it when he had to bring a boyfriend home on his arm. So, that's my opinion on all this. Blessings, Kiama

souljourney	29 Nov 2004
Very interesting topic. I'm very new to tarot in general. I really liked the idea of keeping to one layout (at least in the beginning) and journaling it. Great idea! I don't know enough to add much to the discussion about what would represent sexual orientation. I personally have questioned mine and it has changed. Have had quite a lot of issues surrounding that too. I think for me it may help to know if a client is gay/lesbian/bi or questioning...especially if it has any relation to the question being asked. Looks like a great forum and this topic has really peeked my interest.

Kissa	30 Nov 2004
... and why would this be of any interest to you as a reader? a querent comes with a question and even if this question is regarding his/her love life, i can't see what would make it different whether s/he is straight, gay or bi. if the question is about his/her relatives/acquaintances not accepting him/her as s/he is, then i guess the reader should be able to talk openly about it to you if s/he is ready to come out of the closet or has come already and needs some advice where to go from here. i don't think reading for someone gives you the right to know everything about their life if they are not willing to talk about it/admit it. this regards sexuality as well as anything else. IMO Kissa

NightWing	30 Nov 2004
gargoyle_guarded and Kissa and others: I think there are times when sexual orientation may be an issue; and may be part of, or even the core of, a crisis in a querent's life. I'm really pleased to see people here advising discretion and sensitivity in reading for those who may(or may not) be gay. The Tower might well be an indicator of the sudden jolt that family in particular often get at a loved one "coming out". But the card that has come up more than a few times in regards to those who are "in the closet" has been the Moon. Now, each time the Moon emerges, it gives me pause, as there may be another factor to consider with current issues and/or problems. The limited light of the Moon also warns me to tread carefully!

gargoyle_guarded	30 Nov 2004
Hi Kissa. I totally agree about using discretion while performing a reading as well as after the reader is over. Client confidentiality is as important to me as a reader as it would be to a psychologist or professional counsellor. Again, I also agree with using the terms "your partner", "your significant other", or "your current love interest" during a reading. Now, what I'm wondering is whether your read all the posts in this thread or just started somewhere in the middle? Hello, I'm gay. Ok, that being said I ask myself why would you want to know when a client you are reading for is pregnant, ill, at risk of a car accident, experiencing a problem with drugs/alcohol, suffering from depression, or maybe another experience you are familiar with in your personal life etc.? Umm, is it so that you are able to understand where the client is at this point in his/her life, or maybe so you can relate to the client's situation more, to be aware of potential difficulties the client may face that you may advise on, or maybe just to pass along a warning or a caution that may benefit the client. I don't know about you Kissa but I joined this discussion group to learn new things. And I believe it is the responsibility of a good tarot reader to learn as much about the cards as possible in order to give a clear, accurate and unbiased reading to a client. Thank you NightWing for the following....."Now, each time the Moon emerges, it gives me pause, as there may be another factor to consider with current issues and/or problems. The limited light of the Moon also warns me to tread carefully!" Very well said! I'd like to thank everyone for the input, the insight, and the time taken to share reading experiences with the cards. All responses have stimulated thought, have been helpful and are much appreciated.

closrapexa	30 Nov 2004
I'm going to have to go with Kissa on this one. of course it is important, even essential, to gleen from the cards as much information as possible in order to give a good reading, even going down avenues you would't have thought of at first. However, this relates to problems or issues in the querent's life. If a gay man has a problem with his boyfriend, will these problems be any different just because he is gay? gargoyle_guarded wrote: Ok, that being said I ask myself why would you want to know when a client you are reading for is pregnant, ill, at risk of a car accident, experiencing a problem with drugs/alcohol, suffering from depression, or maybe another experience you are familiar with in your personal life etc.? Umm, is it so that you are able to understand where the client is at this point in his/her life, or maybe so you can relate to the client's situation more, to be aware of potential difficulties the client may face that you may advise on, or maybe just to pass along a warning or a caution that may benefit the client. Yes of course you would want to know these things, or find them out. Using drugs is not a worthwhile occupation, neither is being depressed. But both of these are problems, not what a person is. I find this whole discussion somewhat disturbing, especially, and forgive me for being so blunt, you gargoyle_guarded. I am gay. It is certainly not something I do. It is who I am. I don't expect to find any mention of it in readings because it is as natural to as the air I breathe. We might as well have a discussion about which cards would indicate the querent is straight. Again I must emphasize, I would see it in a reading if it constituted a problem. Otherwise, I probably woudn't.

Kissa	30 Nov 2004
closrapexa wrote: We might as well have a discussion about which cards would indicate the querent is straight. Again I must emphasize, I would see it in a reading if it constituted a problem. Otherwise, I probably woudn't. hum... cards indicating the querent is straight? that's a tough one. anyway i cannot imagine myself reading for a heterosexual querent... what if it is contagious?? ;) my point was: either the querent has no problem living his/her sexuality and s/he comes to you with a question (even regarding his/her partner or love life) then what is the point of knowing s/he is gay or not? Either the querent doesn't live comfortably with his/her sexuality and is suffering, his/her whole life being stuck then in this case, if s/he wants to be helped the first thing is to be able to verbalize your problem, acknowledge, admit it. You as a reader, a councelor, have the right to expect some clues about it. You don't have to guess it all from the cards, you cannot solve the querent's problems, you can give them options if/when they are willing to get some advice. reading tarot is about telling ppl where to go from here, it is not about knowing who they are imho. it would be very pretentious to pretend to get a picture of one's life from a tarot reading. i think human beings are extremely complicated, our relationships and feelings are so intricated webs, one can only start to understand their own implications in others' lives. btw, i am not on this board to learn about tarot, i am just a homophobic fundamentalist who has been mean for 700 posts before this one :D Kissa Edited to add: I am aware of the Metrosexual Tarot (unpublished) with a "Gay friend" card if i remember correctly. There is a old thread in the Decks section about this one, nice polemic it was... You should find it easily if you use the Search function.

gargoyle_guarded	30 Nov 2004
gargoyle_guarded wrote: Does anyone have any advice or information on which tarot card(s) suggest that the client you are reading for is gay or bisexual? Using the wrong pronouns really doesn't sit well with some clients. Well now. It's interesting and amazing how a "simple" question turned into such a pissing contest. I originally joined this forum to seek answers, advice, and clarification on the way card combinations may interact. The first card combination I chose to gain insight on was one that is of interest to ME. Gods forbid I ever do that again. Is it really important to anyone WHY I asked the question and what my intentions were? Wasn't it enough that I asked a simple question and was looking for a simple answer from someone willing to share the knowledge? Or should I expect that my future questions might also invoke lectures? I joined this discussion group with a purpose. That purpose was to receive some feedback in the form of "experienced advice" or "intuitive insight". That purpose has been met. I now have card combinations that are relevant to my original question. Thanks all. My intent was never to "disturb" anyone. So, with respect to my question and my comments - life is about choices. And at any point in time you deem necessary - you can make the choice not to read any further posts by gargoyle_guarded. Choices? Wow....who knew.

Ace	30 Nov 2004
Kissa wrote: ... and why would this be of any interest to you as a reader? a querent comes with a question and even if this question is regarding his/her love life, i can't see what would make it different whether s/he is straight, gay or bi. i don't think reading for someone gives you the right to know everything about their life if they are not willing to talk about it/admit it. this regards sexuality as well as anything else. I agree, but it is important, it will be brought to you attention. I have had this kind of thing come up, but not for a long while. I remember asking one person if they were gay, since that seemed relevent to the reading. He was and we went on from there. I don't remember which cards cued me into that, it was just something the cards wanted me to know. The other case was a woman asking about her love life and I was saying HE and she looked really smug and said "actually it is a she". It turned out, if memory serves right, to be about the hostess. She had a lot of Gay friends and this lady felt (for some reason) that I should be aware of this. I explained that I didn't know the hostess, she had just hired me for the party. But in recent years, I haven't found that important as a discussion point, except for one gay couple that were the guests of honor at a party. They asked for a couples reading, that I did, and I just saw them again recently-they are still together and still happy.

Alta	30 Nov 2004
gargoyle_guarded wrote: Well now. It's interesting and amazing how a "simple" question turned into such a pissing contest. True but don't let it discourage you. ATF is made up the normal range of human beings. There is lots to learn here.

MyTquinn	30 Nov 2004
Its funny, my neighbor is gay and I have read for him many times and he has always been the Hierophant (Rx) in every reading. I noticed it but never assigned it to his sexuality. Likewise, the three of cups appeared numerous times in readings I have done for a friend who for years denied being gay until just this last April...... Here all this time the cards were telling me -- but I didn't know what they were telling me....

MeeWah	30 Nov 2004
It appears conclusions were drawn from gargoyle_guarded's query without noting or examining *the letter of same nor its context*. The second sentence qualifies the context of the question: "Using the wrong pronouns really doesn't sit well with some clients." This tells me that as a reader, he is concerned about communicating appropriately in order to avoid offending or otherwise alienating the querent. To assume an unnecessary preoccupation with a querent's private life or even a prurient interest in same is unfair & unjustified. & certainly not expressed in his query. Any reader worth his salt will automatically or involuntarily be privy to information of all kinds. How he uses it to better serve his client is what matters, as "the allegiance" is to that person at the time of a reading. Edited to correct punctuation.

Cerulean	30 Nov 2004
Hello Gargoyle_Guarded, First in answer to your question, I've two reading decks that are rather interesting to me because they seem to me to give thoughtful relationship answers--but my failing is I believe is the readings that I work on usually only reflect one person's opinion at one moment in time--the reader's take on an idea or situation. I'm afraid that means when I read, my answers don't predict, they seem to shed a slightly different slant and maybe speak in a fanciful way. In one relationship reading, I may see a dance or dynamic between two characters, but I remember writing out a reading indicating there was a strong and dynamic partner, attitude or energy in a relationship and I also thought I had identified a softer and more easygoing energy that had a slower pace. I remember that I left it up to the querent to identify which mode (dynamic, strong, eager as opposed to slower, softer and easy-going) they felt was closest to them. This worked, because of an expressed hope for the querent to blend the differences in a more temperate balance--I think that was the question was a generic one and I don't remember if I knew the querent was male or female when I was doing this--it was an internet practise reading. Your readings sound very straightforward and direct, mine seem to be vaguer in comparison. The two decks I have in mind are the Lo Scarabeo Secrets Tarot and the LS Gothic Tarot of the Vampires. The Secrets Tarot has some ambiguity of time period, gender, and unusual scenes, so I cannot 'program' it to mean the same thing in my readings. It does give a good reflective take when I have time to work on a reading for someone...If you want, pm me and I can link you to some scans of the deck...it is one of the most versatile and storylike of my decks, because right now I found it is working in an atmospheric Daphne Du Muirlike-Rebecca-setting reading...(I'm working on one for someone on Aeclectic.net). The LS Gothic Tarot of the Vampires has one character hero/heroine that appears throughout the deck in both male and female aspects, so it also has a storylike approach and the same atmospheric ambiguity...unfortunately, I only have links to a few scans. I was fascinated that you use one deck for all your readings, so it became an elegant extension of your reading skills. Some artists favor and use one set of tools exclusively. I work a few different ones per month. Hope this information was useful to you. I found your posts in this thread enjoyable because your reading style and thoughts have expanded some of my own ideas of reading for people. Best wishes, Cerulean

Paul	01 Dec 2004
Gargoyle_Guarded, Can you take what you like and leave the rest? (including my posts, if I have offended or exasperated?). I truly appreciate your question on AT. Pleeeeaase keep on posting. There is always an element of vulnerability in posting. I admire your candor.

lark	01 Dec 2004
Hi Gargoyle_Guarded, I hope you come back to this post as I would like to share an experience I had just this Sunday. When I start a reading I do two cards first, the inner and outer you. The man I was reading for got Emperor (U) crossed by the Empress (U). I hesitated through the whole reading to tell him what those two cards presented to me but finally I said. "Your inner you is attracted to men but you are dating women to cover up your true sexual preferences from your family." His arms fell to his sides, he flopped back in the chair and nodded. Then the flood gates opened and we got down to a real nitty gritty reading. :) Just wanted to share that with you. I enjoyed reading about how you program the cards. I do a similar thing but you explained it so well. Also with health aspects certain cards have come to mean certain things. I have a whole list of them in my notebook. Please don't be discouraged I feel you have alot to offer us here at AT. Just from your posts I can tell you are passionate about your cards and learning. And that you have spent many hours in their company learning their language. I love to see that. All my best~lark

smokey	01 Dec 2004
[quote=gargoyle_guarded]I originally joined this forum to seek answers, advice, and clarification on the way card combinations may interact. The first card combination I chose to gain insight on was one that is of interest to ME. Gods forbid I ever do that again. Is it really important to anyone WHY I asked the question and what my intentions were? Wasn't it enough that I asked a simple question and was looking for a simple answer from someone willing to share the knowledge? Or should I expect that my future questions might also invoke lectures? My intent was never to "disturb" anyone. Greetings Gargoyle_Gaurded, You are Still in the right place for answers, advice and clarification. And no ,of course it's nobody's biz but yours regarding the purpose of why and what! As far as "future questions Maybe turning into lectures", (though I think of them more as debates) I think that's just what naturally happens in these forums allover...this is my 1st...I am still a newbie...I truly don't know, I'm just going by what I've seen here in the past year! With all due respect, I think you are the one Most disturbed, and I certainly give you my sincere apology if I offended or hurt you in any way. This was Never my intent...(to anyone... Ever!...re: an answer.) Please don't go away from ATF angry, and I hope to see you here again many times. blessings. smokey.

Kissa	01 Dec 2004
i guess i am the naughtiest of the naughty ones... i am sorry if you feel offended. but i am not sorry for writing what i wrote. in forums you get answers to your questions and because the human's brains are what they are, your questions might even turn into a debate, arising new questions. that's how it works, "forum" means public place in latin. there, ppl used to debate about everything at a time when there was not internet or such communication devices. i certainly not intended to put your tarot reader's talents in questions. i've learned from being here that many ppl have a completely different conception of tarot than mine. and that's ok. if you need to know if somebody is gay for the quality of your reading, well fair enough, i understand you see it that way. if you feel you need to know that in order to help and serve someone in the best way, this is indeed very noble. i think this forum is big enough for both of us, really. and you too can ignore my posts if you find them disturbing. the main thing we should keep in mind IMHO is that tarot is obviously important for both of us (though we might understand it differently) and we are just trying our best. so i guess, i am apologizing after all. all the best to you on your path, kissa

NightWing	01 Dec 2004
gargoyle_guarded, Kissa, and others: I read through the thread again, which I think has been very interesting. But several people have at least implied the irrelevance of a querent's sexual orientation (beyond politely getting the appropriate pronoun). In the best of all possible worlds, I guess that would be true. In reality, I'm not sure it is. (Please note, I write from a point of view wherein context is very important.) I note that people on this forum are in a wide variety of countries, with various cultural norms, mores, and laws. For example: Kissa, are you aware that in some of the United States, gay people have few if any human rights? They can be refused housing or be fired from a job for being gay. There can be no survivor benefits or inheritance rights. In several U.S. states, there are very severe legal penalties for engaging in (male) gay sexual activity, including years in prison. I believe that one or two states still have the death penalty on the lawbooks for such activity. None of this is the case in Europe. This is way above and beyond the pain of family rejection based on fundamentalist religious morality. By (some) contrast, here in Canada, in some of our 13 territories and provinces, gay marriage has recently become legal, if not necessarily comfortable for everyone. But in one province, the government has sworn to ensure that gay marriage and the rights that go with it NEVER becomes legal. That government has just been re-elected. I suggest that these legal & political issues might indeed put a different perspective on a tarot reading. Depending on where a querent lives, the context of their questions or concerns is very, very different. To the point that I don't believe we can read precisely the same way for a gay person as a straight one unless perhaps they are living in a place where it makes no conceivable difference (The Netherlands?). I mean, if you don't get that the querent is liable to become unemployed or lose their home or children due to sexual orientation, then your reading can be badly skewed. You might decide that certain meanings are irrelevant, when in fact they are not. Certainly, the approach to a reading in France or Finland might need to be quite different than in the U.S. or central America. The "bottom line" is that readers must try to be conscious of alternate possibilities and the particular context of a querent's enquiry, and not make assumptions about their situation, freedom of choice, etc. Readers must also absolutely honour any confidence a querent might place in us! I'm sure everyone knows this, but beyond unidentifiable generalities, we have no business discussing the details of a reading with anyone other than the querent. In some places, far more than hurt feelings may depend on it! And in discussing tarot concerns here, I guess we all need to try to be sensitive to the fact that our reality is not necessarily everyone else's. Thus endth the rant. Am I way off base here? My apologies; I don't intend to sound like I'm picking on anyone, and to gargoyle_guarded...I know this wanders far from your original question.

cheekyminx	01 Dec 2004
NightWing wrote: I read through the thread again, which I think has been very interesting. But several people have at least implied the irrelevance of a querent's sexual orientation (beyond politely getting the appropriate pronoun). In the best of all possible worlds, I guess that would be true. In reality, I'm not sure it is. (Please note, I write from a point of view wherein context is very important.) I note that people on this forum are in a wide variety of countries, with various cultural norms, mores, and laws. For example: Kissa, are you aware that in some of the United States, gay people have few if any human rights? They can be refused housing or be fired from a job for being gay. There can be no survivor benefits or inheritance rights. In several U.S. states, there are very severe legal penalties for engaging in (male) gay sexual activity, including years in prison. I believe that one or two states still have the death penalty on the lawbooks for such activity. None of this is the case in Europe. This is way above and beyond the pain of family rejection based on fundamentalist religious morality. By (some) contrast, here in Canada, in some of our 13 territories and provinces, gay marriage has recently become legal, if not necessarily comfortable for everyone. But in one province, the government has sworn to ensure that gay marriage and the rights that go with it NEVER becomes legal. That government has just been re-elected. I suggest that these legal & political issues might indeed put a different perspective on a tarot reading. Depending on where a querent lives, the context of their questions or concerns is very, very different. To the point that I don't believe we can read precisely the same way for a gay person as a straight one unless perhaps they are living in a place where it makes no conceivable difference (The Netherlands?). I mean, if you don't get that the querent is liable to become unemployed or lose their home or children due to sexual orientation, then your reading can be badly skewed. You might decide that certain meanings are irrelevant, when in fact they are not. Certainly, the approach to a reading in France or Finland might need to be quite different than in the U.S. or central America. Well said NightWing. You are absolutely right, different countries, different cultures, different nationalities = different laws & different views.

cheekyminx	01 Dec 2004
smokey wrote: I have to go with Closrapexa and Cheekyminx on this one, unless of course they have no qualms of bringing up the issue themselves. On a humourous note - My gaydar works perfectly well ;) I read for friends & a few times I have read for people on AT & well this has never posed a problem as I already know the persons sexuality or the question asked didnt concern a sexual issue. The day something like this happens and I'm unsure of a persons sexuality, I'd say something like " I see an air sign coming into your circle, a Gemini, Libra or Aquarius. They have dark hair and work with their hands" :) And hopefully the querent will say "will HE" or "will SHE" ;) and then I'd work from there otherwise it will be "they & their". Some people don't mind their sexual orientation being known where as some people would rather not reveal it.

Flavio	01 Dec 2004
NightWing wrote: I note that people on this forum are in a wide variety of countries, with various cultural norms, mores, and laws. We must be aware this phrase goes both ways, to people who made the original question and the people answering, everyone is entitled to their opinion and talking about certain topics, those opinions will be quite different but valid anyway. I hope NightWing comments brings undertanding to each others views and we can continue with this interesting thread.

gargoyle_guarded	01 Dec 2004
Flavio wrote: We must be aware this phrase goes both ways, to people who made the original question and the people answering, everyone is entitled to their opinion and talking about certain topics, those opinions will be quite different but valid anyway. I hope NightWing comments brings undertanding to each others views and we can continue with this interesting thread. Well, the whole experience has been an eye opener to say the least. And Flavio, I really like what you said in your last statement. It would be awfully egocentric of me to think another person would share the same opinion or view a particular matter in the same light. I must remember I am but a grain of sand on an enormous beach. What a humbling feeling. Maybe I have a bit too much on my plate right now and was sensitive to the responses. That's just me. However, I have no hard feelings concerning this thread, the contributors of the thread, or the forum itself. Judging by the 760 plus views and 44 replies to this thread I'd say it's been a great learning experience all around. Thanks to all who read or contributed to this thread. I hope to learn more from you and to share more with you, again, in the days to come.

contradiction	01 Dec 2004
i have been putting off posting on this thread to see what happens, (its been quite a soap opra LOL), anyway i am from the southern us (the bible belt), and do consider myself to be religious, even though the tarot would actually go against church teachings. more than that i am bi-sexual, and have lived as both straight and openly gay, (not smart around here). there have been times that i have seen someones sexual prefrences not only male-female, but s&m, etc... have an effect on the reading, but not usually. in the past when i have had a reading done, there have been times i have wanted to know if the "future person", was male or female, but most of the time the reading was about the present and i knew who was implied, even if the reader did not. having been on both sides of this debate, i do understand all views that have been expressed, and yes if the reader thinks it is important, then to them it is. but when doing a reading for others i have usually known, what was implied by the cards, if it was important for me to know. at the same time i have seen the cards use a king to refer to a woman, and a queen a man (seriously no pun intended), traditionally the man has been thought of as the stronger personality, but i know some straight women who had very strong personality's, i think you should get my point. but i have never actually seen any card repeatedly refer to someone being gay, or straight. the tarot is very subjective, what is "normal" is not set in stone. cards change meanings, as do card positions, as do reader view points and so on. i guess what i am trying to say is don't worry about this, or any other special situation you may face, if you need to know you will know. and if you disagree with someone so what. gargoyle_guarded, i understand your need for this to be important to you, i have known some gay people, who felt that this was the most important thing about them. but most i have known did not think of themselves as a "gay person", but as a person who happens to be gay. there is nothing wrong with your view on this matter, but it is not the most important thing about you. it is just a minor detail, of your personality. i hope you understand i am not being critical of you, just want you to understand that i nor do most people i know give a rat's $** about whether or not you are gay. but who you are. and as for the rest of you why be offended because of his question? i realize most of you were not, but it did come across that way, as i am sure my soap box speech makes me sound that way, so i must say i hope i have not offended anyone and if i did i apologize. contradiction

Adjustment	02 Dec 2004
The cards that i get for bisexual or gay people are the 2 of pentacles, the page of cups, the fool and sometimes the hanged man.

smokey	03 Dec 2004
[quote=cheekyminx]On a humourous note - My gaydar works perfectly well ;) Glad it does and why shouldn't it?!? Though retired @ present, gender always was trivial to me at readings, unless it involved matters of the heart;(that type of thing) and was specifically brought up,which was what I meant.I don't mean the word trivial irreverently at all...just that it was not an issue...such as being straight wasn't either with regard to matters. Gargoyle_Gaurded, I am SO glad to see that you're going to stay here with us at AT! There's so much to learn about a great many things! (I think you'll be glad ya' did!)

gargoyle_guarded	10 Dec 2004
Hi Smokey. It's been a while since I looked at this thread. But just the same, thank you. I am so glad I stayed as well. You wouldn't believe how much I've learned since I first joined. I am grateful for all the comments, suggestions, questions, and yes, even the criticisms.

krazymayj	11 Dec 2004
i feel it neccesary to say, once more, that i have done excessive work on this subject; my findings are, that in the area of sexual potency(erotic sensation ie that which gets you off) the fool reversed is a certain indication of homosexuality or impotency. my gay friends are always page of cups reversed when you first meet them. if a woman is reading, hes a page of cups reversed or upright, until hes out of the closet, then hes a knight of cups reversed. if the tarotist him self is gay, then both are queen of wands, until they break up, then they are queen of cups reversed. i agree with the others about the heirophant, but not about the devil, unless were talking commitment. its also true that lesbians are usually knights knight of swords to be precise. the chariot, i think is more descriptive of a homophobe. think about it.

Adjustment	11 Dec 2004
For impotency i usually get the ace of wands reversed or the ace of swords reversed.

gargoyle_guarded	11 Dec 2004
For impotency, I use the Ace of Wands (R) and the Magician (R).

Scion	11 Dec 2004
Wow! Spectacular thread! Super interesting and thought-provoking... on any number of levels. I, too, have hung back to see how the chips fell cause I'm relatively new to the forum and was trying to formulate my thoughts coherently. I was raised by a very out lesbian couple ; I read for my family members, both "straight" and "gay," a lot. And the cards do reflect things, though not as simply as a certain group of cards. My sense of this is that one of the reasons that the "Gay question" raised hackles and elicited so many impassioned responses is that the word "Gay" is a vague and subjective term. It's rather like an old pair of pantyhose that's been stretched over so many different things that it's lost its shape... much like the words "Freedom" and "Art" and "Love." These words are both powerful and meaningless, because they are bandied about in so many different situations by so many different voices. The word "gay" means something very different sepending on whether you are saying it in Alabama or in Madrid or on the UCLA campus. Something different if you're 15 or 75. Many would say that the IDEA of "gayness" is a twentieth century invention... that noone's sexuality is black and white. And even in the "gay" population (whatever the hell that is) it has come to mean everything from a political position, a style, an ironic sense, to a clinical designation. And much like all those other massive and meaningless/meaninful generalities people claim ownership of it with passion and personal investment. Cheekyminx mentioned gaydar earlier in the thread and it's funny because I think that "gaydar" is exactly what operates when orientation turns up in a reading. I'd say that "gaydar" and Tarot are expressions of the same intuitive muscle. I don't get any one particular card (though several mentioned earlier have popped up: Hierophant Rx, Fool, Chariot for closetedness) I've often noticed a preponderance of court cards with opposed gender/element: Queen of Swords, Knight of Cups, Princess of Wands, etc... My moms ALWAYS get spreads packed with Queens and ladies of all stripes and realms. But in reading the spread my gaydar goes off. I do feel like you can read gender/sexuality in the swath of the cards. So its not really one card or another but more a building sense that makes itself more clear as the spread deepens. In the same way that meeting someone you gradually get a sense of their "bent" as it were. All that being said, language is an engine of specificity and the desire for knowledge is an attempt to bring abstractions in concrete focus. So to answer the original question: I find that sexual orientation does turn up in readings sometimes as a meaningul feature of the tarotscape and sometimes as a minor factor and sometimes not at all. The "orientation" of a spread usually manifests in a way that is useful/absorbable for the querent. Like anything that exercises intuition, both gaydar or Tarot change gears depending on the situation and the personalities involved. So I'd say that in my experience MANY cards in the deck can indicate "orientation" it's rarely limited to that few cards; because people are rarely that simple. 'Nuff said. Scion

lili	14 Dec 2004
the page of of cups and 2 of pentacles tell me when the person is gay.

grayfeather	21 Dec 2004
There have been a number of times i have the "world" come up as the 8th card...in a CC spread...in every case the person was bi-sexual, and yes i have been bold enough to ask! However, I strongly feel it is your deck and cards can have different meanings at different times. Bright blessings.....Grayfeather

krazymayj	21 Dec 2004
calling homosexuality complex is saying that every human being is complex. a true statement. being that most of my data was collected from males may taint my results. however if tarot can use one card to explain every thing about ones personality like the courts then the same could be said about gay relationships (what if a page of wands was gay?) tarot will state first that this person is hiding something, then go on to say about this persons relationships, normal relationships, as gender doesent really matter since gay relationships are like everyone elses, just queer if youll pardon the slang. tarot will tell you, but you have to keep your eyes open

tarotbear	27 Jan 2005
Once when I was reading for a man I knew was gay, ALL FOUR QUEENS appeared in his reading. We both giggled a lot! As I have said before - when a queen appears in a gay man's cards - they don't have to be women! LOL!!!

rainwolf	30 Jan 2005
Paul wrote: The exception is when the subject matter is coming-out or conflicts with sexual orientation, per se, with no particular relationship. In this case, Temperance indubitably appears, upright or reversed, depending on how well it's all going. Sometimes, Le Pape and Le Diable appear, indicating social/religious injunctions. I think (now after reading this small part) that you can find sexual orientation in every card (but yes, some more than others) in any card meaning anything. I know that may sound simple, but...I didnt think of it before :)

Niomi	02 Feb 2005
gargoyle_guarded wrote: The Universe (U) combined with The Stars (U) suggests being bisexual. It's intresting you should say that. I happen to be an admirer of both sexes and my favorite card in the deck has always been The Star. (OT: I hate to use the word bisexual, because human sexuality is fluid and not set in stone. But I'd rather not lecture someone on human nature every time the subject comes up, I just label myself 'bi' and get on with it...)

gargoyle_guarded	02 Feb 2005
Niomi wrote: ...because human sexuality is fluid and not set in stone. Hi Niomi. I agree and at the risk of opening a whole new can of worms (this thread has generated a lot of heat), by nature I think everyone is bisexual to some degree anyway.*** It's society that teaches what is right or wrong. (***Note to all: That is not to say all people want to have sex with both males and females. Please note I did say "to some degree" before you pounce all over me.) Myself, I am gay and quite happy with being so however, I still find woman sexually attractive. I do not consider myself "bi" because my preference is men and has been exclusively men for the past 12 years. Unfortunately, we live in a society where it is a requirement to name and identify EVERYTHING. Labels seem to bring comfort to others. It is with a man I feel most comfortable and for that reason I've accepted the "label" gay.

Niomi	02 Feb 2005
I agree with you completely, gargoyle_guarded. Life, in general, is unfathomly beautiful... humans in particular, IMHO. XD I think people are born with a strong desire to love and appreciate everyone. I believe this is what is at the root of my "bisexuality". Ultimatly, I want a partner to have a family with, and love keeps a family togather more than gender ever could. ^_^ Some may drift toward one sex or the other due to various reasons, but I think we all must start out this way...

psychic sue	12 Feb 2005
I think the pages are the cards which may suggest this, as they can be people of either sex. But why would you want to know???

rainwolf	13 Feb 2005
gargoyle_guarded wrote: Hi Niomi. I agree and at the risk of opening a whole new can of worms (this thread has generated a lot of heat), by nature I think everyone is bisexual to some degree anyway.*** It's society that teaches what is right or wrong. (***Note to all: That is not to say all people want to have sex with both males and females. Please note I did say "to some degree" before you pounce all over me.) I cant believe i found someone that said the same thing as me!!! Everyone thinks im weird when i say that everyone is bisexual to a degree, some 50, some 99%. Even the 99% gets drunk sometimes...but that would be another story for them. The four of wands came up in a reading for a bisexual girl, i was using the thoth deck, and the card had the venus and mars symbol and she was the circle in the middle....LOL Oh how the tarot makes us laugh. Notice i didnt exploit her with this information, i learned more about the cards and herself.

RedMaple	13 Feb 2005
deleted

shaveling	13 Feb 2005
psychic sue wrote: I think the pages are the cards which may suggest this, as they can be people of either sex. But why would you want to know??? Well, mostly I agree with the people saying to get this information from gaydar, rather than the cards. But as for why you'd want to know, one reason would be for a gay or lesbian reader to decide whether to use our quaint tribal language in the reading. Here's an example of gay or lesbian reader speaking to a female client of a certain appearance and bearing. In the first example the client is straight (SC), in the second, she's lesbian (LC). G/LR: This is you. (Pointing to the TdM Queen of Staves.) SC: Why? G/LR: She represents your assertive self-confidence. She also has your take-charge attitude, your forthrightness and your determination to look out for those who depend on you. SC: OK. then there's: G/LR: This is you. (Pointing to the TdM Queen of Staves.) LC: Why? G/LR: She's the butch. LC: OK. Really, the answer in the second example is both more extensive and more subtly nuanced than the first. That's probably the way it will be for members of any subculture speaking their own language among themselves. But if the client hadn't presented herself as a member of the group in some way or other, if the information just came from the cards; this way of speaking would probably be highly inappropriate and alienating.

souljourney	16 Feb 2005
Quote: G/LR: This is you. (Pointing to the TdM Queen of Staves.) LC: Why? G/LR: She's the butch. LC: OK. RFLMAO!!! That cracked me up. But in all honesty that would say something, and quite well. SJ

The Which tarot cards suggest the client is gay or bisexual? thread was originally posted on 25 Nov 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.