And then they lie... Now what?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 22 Dec 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Paradox	22 Dec 2004
Well, what do you do when a deck you have been using lies, and there is no possible other explanation that makes it be telling the truth? Unfortunately, this problem had befallen my Tarot of the Animal-Lords Deck, any ideas on what to do?

wildchilde	22 Dec 2004
Hi Paradox! I can't say as I've ever had this problem so I'm not sure how much help I can be, but it sounds as though this issue would be related to one of two things... 1) either the deck has been "abused" (not necissarily by you) and has become non-communicative. In this instance, you could try deck clearing rituals that feel right for you (like cleansing with sage, salt, or moonlight) etc and protection rituals (like wrapping in black silk, or with a protective crystal). 2) the deck has become attuned to other energies and is answering questions that are not posed. This happens to me at times with certain decks, and although extremely difficult to deal with and understand, it is nonetheless important to honor the deck and try to figure out exactly what question it has answered (rather than "accusing" it of lying". If none of this seems to "fit" or you are just too frustrated to try and deal with it, I suppose the only other thing you could do at this time is lovingly store it or even give it away and move on to a different deck that is harmonious to you. I don't know if any of this will help, but I found your difficulty interesting and will be looking forward to replies from others who have had to deal with this issue as well. Best of luck to you!

WalesWoman	22 Dec 2004
Being a Tarot toddler myself, how can a Tarot deck tell lies? I just don't see how this is possible...now lying to myself, is very much more likely, if I thought the cards weren't portraying something accurately. I think I might try laying out a comparison spread with another deck and see if the meanings might be clearer from another viewpoint and jot down impressions, but try to clear previous assumptions from the first spread out of my mind. Maybe it's trying to tell you what is really going on, rather than what you thought you were asking about and that is why it seems like it's lying to you.

Flavio	22 Dec 2004
I've seen that deck and I feel it has a lighter and funny side... maybe the deck is telling you things with a particular sense of humor, nothing to be taken literally, but if that is not the case... I would use the same deck or another (for security) to ask why is the Animal Lords telling lies and if there is something that can be done to fix your relationship with the deck. It's the 1st time I read about a case like that... I've read about jealous decks, decks that refuse to be shuffled and some others that refuse to speak (experienced that myself) but the Animal Lords telling lies is really unusual, hope you can solve this matter.

Apollonia	22 Dec 2004
Can you tell us how you came to the awareness that it was lying? Did you do the same question/spread with another deck, and got a very different answer that later turned out to be accurate? Or did you ask about something you already knew? Or did something else happen that made you aware it was lying to you? Blessings, Amanda

Thirteen	22 Dec 2004
I'm with Amanda. I'd like to see question, the answer you got, and be told what happened which made you decide the deck had lied. And did this happen just once, or has it happened more than once? My first instinct is to believe that you misinterpeted the cards which, let's face it, we can tend to do if reading for ourselves. My second instinct is to agree with Wildchilde and say that the deck might have ignored the question you asked to send you a message on something else entirely, something it felt was far more important. And my third instinct is to believe that the personality of this deck is such that it doen't like to give bad news. It tried to let you down gently and gave you the bad news in an excessively polite way (kinda like saying, "Your dog has passed on," rather than, "Your dog's dead"). This overly courteous way of telling you the bad news misled you instead. In fifteen years of doing Tarot, I've never known a deck to lie. I've known decks to ignore the question asked, prefering to discuss something else; I've known them to be attuned to the wrong person, responding to an observer rather than the querent asking the questions; and I've known them to get stuck, in need of cleansing or a rest if you will. Most of all, I've known when I've totally blown a reading--messed up, mis-read, or, in readings for myself, insisted on seeing a positive answer instead of a negative--i.e., fooled myself and ended up disappointed. But lie? The only instance I can *imagine* such a thing would be if the deck thought you'd be harmed if the truth were revealed and you acted on that truth. I honestly can't see any other motivation for a deck lying....

Fulgour	22 Dec 2004
Buy another copy of the same deck, but don't open it... Keep them together, and when you want to do readings, ask the new deck, and then secretly use the other one.

Cat Eyes	22 Dec 2004
You know, I have a deck that I consider a little dangerous because it deceives. Ask yourself if you have been reading too much lately. Sometimes ANY deck will start to play tricks with you if you refuse to stop asking questions about the same issue. If this is not the case, check that your deck is not wrapped in RED. A reader once told me to get rid of that color when storing decks. I avoid using this one deck that is wrapped in red silk. I don't know why I haven't changed the cloth, but the truth is I don't like that deck.

Sulis	22 Dec 2004
Patricia Osinski wrote: If this is not the case, check that your deck is not wrapped in RED. A reader once told me to get rid of that color when storing decks. Not wrapped in red Why? This sounds to me like the same sort of mythology that says never buy yourself a tarot deck. What about decks which have red backs? What on earth is wrong with red? I've never heard of red being associated with lying, come to think of it, I've never heard of a tarot deck lying. I think the answers the tarot gives come from within us, so if anyone's lying and you're reading for yourself I think it's more likely that you're either lying to yourself or you're missing what the cards are trying to tell you. Love Sulis xx

Diana	22 Dec 2004
How can a deck lie??? If decks can lie, that means they have brains. If someone can show me the brains of a deck, I'd like to see them. Statements like "decks tell lies", or "my deck is angry"... (or the one that makes me really almost embarassed to be associated with Tarot readers, i.e. "My old deck is jealous of my new deck"), really give a bad name to Tarot. No wonder Tarot is not taken seriously by so many people. Only homo sapiens sapiens lie. Not pieces of cardboard. Most times when we're not getting the answers we are expecting (and by this I don't mean the answers that we want), we are either interpreting the cards completely wrong, or else the questions that we are asking are incorrect and skewed, or else the deck itself is a lousy deck (but I don't know if this is the case with your deck, I don't know it.)

Paradox	22 Dec 2004
Ok, maybe a little more information's in order. Yesterday, I was rushed on time because I had to leave to go meet up with somebody. I quickly shuffled the deck and asked it if I'll meet him there, using a Yes/No spread that I learned on this forum (forget where, it's the one in which you lay thirteen cards in a row or until an ace, and you do that three times, two aces means yes, one means no). A straightforward spread, agree? Well, It said no to my question, but he was there and we ended up having a great time going to a bball game. The deck itself has one card that is...off. Not sure if this would make a hoot or a holler of a difference, but its a pentacle, I think the knave (if that's the scholarly card, I can never remember if I'm not looking at the deck). In the Tarot of the Animal-Lords it is a picture of a cat-man reading a book. The card did not appear in the spread. Still, the problem with the card is that there is something kind of like a bend, its a little bump-line in the upper left corner. It is only noticeable though if you look really hard at the card. Well, there's some more information, hope it can help you help me. Thank you all

Diana	22 Dec 2004
1) Never do readings in a rush. 2) Choose your spreads more carefully. Yes/No spreads are tricky to do. That spread of yours sounds pretty wierd to me.... Why such a complicated spread for such a basic down-to-earth question? (The spread that you used sounds like hocus-pocus to me....) As to your deck... well, someone else can respond to you about that. I don't use decks that have pentacles in them (am not into magic(k) stuff myself).

Fulgour	22 Dec 2004
How could you have been meeting him, if he was there when you arrived? Seems he was the one meeting you. But the yes/no Aces 13-cards x 3 really is a timesaver!

Moongold	22 Dec 2004
Paradox ~ The situation itself seems a little strange to me. You are in a rush to meet someone with whom you have already made an arrangement. Despite being in a rush you use the Tarot to find out whether that person will be there. That would have made you later perhaps? Although the Tarot apparently says *No* you go to the meeting. Hmmmm .............. Why not begin the day again? Cheers ...... :)

Paradox	22 Dec 2004
Ok, first off, wow. I see why you could be upset or confused, and maybe it was using the tarot for more of a practical purpose rather than something "higher", but that's just my way of doing it. It's almost a confidence thing because the last time I set something up with the same person, it didn't work out. As for the problem with my rushing it, I don't see why that's so wrong. Why should it matter how quickly I read? I was not at all trying to "taunt" the deck and where in the world did you come up with thinking that I was trying to prove something? Its just, after the spread, I decided that it would be better to go anyway because it couldn't hurt and I was now prepared with a more pessimistic view of the situation, making myself very happy when the spread turned out wrong. Wildchilde, you can mean it or not, rudeness comes regardless. I was just offering that tidbit about the card for more information, whether it was a chalice or a pentacle shouldn't have mattered, it was just an attempt to identify which card was messed up. Well, I guess now I should apologize for my comment, but it seems so insincere. I've just been a little set off by your comment and maybe the next time I look at this forum I'll be able to see your point and be able to offer a more honest sorry. I truly hope for that. Best Wishes

WhiteRaven	22 Dec 2004
Personally, I don't like Yes/No spreads because they never come out anyway...so I avoid a Yes/No question. I've tried several times and it's rare that I get the proper answer after looking back after the fact. I guess it depends on the people perhaps? I have no clue..but that type of spread just doesn't work for me very well...

Flavio	22 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: How can a deck lie??? The same way they can answer a question "speaking" to the reader, to say that a deck lie/speak/is jealous so to speak is just a metaphore (hope is the right spelling) we Tarot readers are story tellers and creativity to express what happens to us is needed to do readings. How come accurate readings don't cause threads like "my deck tells the truth, what shall I do" Quote: Statements like "decks tell lies", or "my deck is angry"... (or the one that makes me really almost embarassed to be associated with Tarot readers, i.e. "My old deck is jealous of my new deck"), really give a bad name to Tarot. No wonder Tarot is not taken seriously by so many people. I thought we just used those expressions among us the posters in this Forum because we can understand the real meaning of those statements, I don't see me telling to a querent "sorry I can't read for you today because all my decks have a headache". I think there are worst practices in the Tarot community that give bad name to Tarot, like people who introduce themselves as psychics(when they aren't) or use Tarot readings to sell witchcraft items (I've seen that happening in Mexico very often)

DarkElectric	22 Dec 2004
I don't like Yes/No spreads, personally, because in my experience, everything is always Maybe, no matter what my spread reads! I find that cards are better at describing situations, or relationships between things, people, and events more than predictive. For sheer Yes/No predictions, I'll either use a pendulum, or the "handful of stones' method. This is where I take about 11 pebbles, (I use an odd number, 5 or more, you can use pennies too if you don't have stones) a piece of paper folded in half, one side is the Yes side, the other is No. Then I close my eyes, shake the stones up, and let them go onto the paper. Whichever side has more stones on it is what I go with. This has actually been right more than cards as far as Yes/No goes.

MeeWah	22 Dec 2004
Though I can see that inanimate objects can absorb vibrations & includes a deck of cards of any kind (& explains how by touching a personal item some psychics can access information about its owner), I do not see that Tarot lies. Be misinterpreted or misunderstood, but actually lie? Not from what I have seen. In the majority of the instances where the cards do not appear to address a query, it has been due to aspects of another matter that needed attention or was more urgent.

firemaiden	22 Dec 2004
Paradox wrote: Well, what do you do when a deck you have been using lies, and there is no possible other explanation that makes it be telling the truth? Unfortunately, this problem had befallen my Tarot of the Animal-Lords Deck, any ideas on what to do? My Goodness Gracious, Paradox, what kind of lies have the Animal Lords been telling you? I love the Animal Lords deck - it is wonderful for some very unconventional interpretations. Perhaps you need to completely shelve the traditional meanings for these cards: just look at the pictures and say the first thing that comes into your mind. It should be informative...

HudsonGray	22 Dec 2004
The Yes No spreads can cause problems. But think on this--you're doing a spread about a situation. The spread answers with what is accurate for that time & place 'right now', it's a snapshot. Once the spread is finished, other things can act on circumstances and change them. The snapshot is not accurate after a certain amount of time because there's a chance of too many other things happening to alter it. That can cause confusion & wrong answers, especially in a hard yes or hard no question. At the time you did it, possibly you wouldn't meet the person, but as the day went on both your actions may have changed & he decided to be at the place you went to, changing the outcome. Well, it's a possibility at least, LOL.

HudsonGray	22 Dec 2004
Firemaiden! That's exactly how I use this deck! As an oracle instead of as a tarot. The pictures themselves give the answers, not the standard card meanings. It just didn't want to be read the traditional way with me. I took it to the last tarot meetup here and two others tried it the same way and got better results with it as pictures only than they did with the book meanings. It was pretty clear about what it wanted to say too. One of the ladies actually went and got the deck because she liked how it worked in that way.

firemaiden	22 Dec 2004
LOL, that's pretty much how I use all my decks, but this one - even though the traditional meanings work too, seems particularly wonderful for reading the pictures. It's one of my favorite reading decks. I'd really like to see if Paradox comes up with a different result (truth instead of lies) by reading this way.

smokey	23 Dec 2004
wow!!! ...Sorry, this one blew me away, I'm still thinking about it!

Eco74	23 Dec 2004
Yes/No spreads can be tricky.. Even with a simple question, it can be "reinterpreted", especially if a layout is done in a hurry. And a question like "will person X be there" is not very detailed in itself (not that I know how you put it, just an example) and could be interpreted as any place you currently had in mind. You were in a hurry, maybe you were thinking about having to make it to the busstop or worrying about possible delays in another place along the way? That would make "there" in the question the busstop or that other place, and that was not where you were to meet, so in that perspective the deck was quite correct in saying no. This is a reason why I never do readings when I don't have enough time on my hands or a place where I feel I can focus properly. Some day I hope to train my focus enough to read pretty much anywhere, but I've got a ways to go til then. What I've also heard is that when using that spread (aces 13 x 3) no ace is No, three aces is Yes and one or two is leaning towards No or Yes but is not absolutely clear, meaning there are still factors at work effecting the outcome. Same thing really with other yes/no spreads including more than one card. Paradox, were either you or your friend not sure about going, or a bit late, or did you meet somewhere other than the specified place you were going to meet? - Just graspling for possibilities...

Diana	23 Dec 2004
Flavio wrote: The same way they can answer a question "speaking" to the reader, to say that a deck lie/speak/is jealous so to speak is just a metaphore (hope is the right spelling) we Tarot readers are story tellers and creativity to express what happens to us is needed to do readings. How come accurate readings don't cause threads like "my deck tells the truth, what shall I do" I thought we just used those expressions among us the posters in this Forum because we can understand the real meaning of those statements, I don't see me telling to a querent "sorry I can't read for you today because all my decks have a headache". I think there are worst practices in the Tarot community that give bad name to Tarot, like people who introduce themselves as psychics(when they aren't) or use Tarot readings to sell witchcraft items (I've seen that happening in Mexico very often) Flavio: I have seen countless posts in the three years I have been a member of Aeclectic by people who REALLY think their decks are jealous, are angry, lie, etc. etc. People who have even been FRIGHTENED of their decks.... for instance, some people are scared of Crowley's deck.... Some people even sleep with their decks as if they were their lovers or something. (Or would it be their teddy-bear?) I swear, it is not always a metaphor.

Diana	23 Dec 2004
Paradox wrote: Ok, first off, wow. I see why you could be upset or confused, and maybe it was using the tarot for more of a practical purpose rather than something "higher", but that's just my way of doing it. There is no such thing as "higher" or "lower" when it comes to reading. Let's not put value-judgements on our readings. What is above is as below, not so? I think reading to know whether someone will turn up or not for a rendez-vous is just as important as knowing "what must I do so as Love enters my life?"

Alissa	23 Dec 2004
Meewah wrote: Though I can see that inanimate objects can absorb vibrations & includes a deck of cards of any kind (& explains how by touching a personal item some psychics can access information about its owner), I do not see that Tarot lies. Diana wrote: Some people even sleep with their decks as if they were their lovers or something. (Or would it be their teddy-bear?) I sleep with my bag of runes every single night ever since I was given them almost 2 years ago. I feel deeply connected to them; I slip my hand under the pillow and hold the bag and feel the stones beneath the fabric gather my warmth from the palm of my hand until I drift off. Although they're inanimate, they're still energetic, in my thinking - much like Meewah so beautifully expresses it. I believe they have absorbed some of my own energetic presence, but I don't see them as having powers of their own. Myself, I don't think cards lie, but I do think I misinterpret them. I don't use Yes/No spreads though, I must admit.

Flavio	23 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: ...some people even sleep with their decks as if they were their lovers or something. (Or would it be their teddy-bear?) I swear, it is not always a metaphor. OK I got your point, everything must have a reasonable and healthy limit, even those rituals to bond with a deck. To project "emotions" on beloved items (including pets) is not exclusive of the Tarot community, I've talked to someone who worried because the old PDA was jealous of the new one so it "refused" to transfer files to the new device, my Mom experienced "new house adaptation" problems with a blender and so on, this is another mystery of the human nature...

WalesWoman	25 Dec 2004
Flavio, your mom must be a real hoot! I loved your post, "can read because my cards are having a headache" ROFLMAO So it was my oven having a bad day, picking up some wierd vibe or jealous of the new pot holder that made me burn the cookies? The pot thought the tomato soup was too acid and messed with it's balance and that's why it scorched? Yahoo! It's not my cooking!!! It's my kitchen going retrograde! Or maybe some strange vibe from my TV is affecting everything?

wandking	25 Dec 2004
I noticed someone wrote "some people are scared of Crowley's deck" and found it irresistable. When I first got the Thoth I was impressed with the artwork... What a beautiful deck! The only problem was, that whenever I read myself it would give me multiple Tarot threats, 3, 5, 7 of Swords, Tower etc. Oddly, I was writing a less than complimentary section on Crowley's antics in the Golden Dawn at the time. Needless to say I eventually put that deck away. I was having trouble with his court cards anyhow. I certainly don't always get good cards with other decks but I've never seen such a continous stream of naughty cards, before or since, in my spreads. In retrospect, I owe Crowley alot for revealing so much about specific GD practices in his Equinox publication.

magpie9	25 Dec 2004
WalesWoman wrote: So it was my oven having a bad day, picking up some wierd vibe or jealous of the new pot holder that made me burn the cookies? The pot thought the tomato soup was too acid and messed with it's balance and that's why it scorched? Yahoo! It's not my cooking!!! It's my kitchen going retrograde! Or maybe some strange vibe from my TV is affecting everything? Reminds me of a boyfriend I had who could never cook on my stove, he burned everything he diddn't curdle--he said it was possessed and wanted me to exorcise it. I told him to exorcise it himself, since he was the one having problems with it. I walked in the kitchen one day to find him throwing sea salt at it. it didn't seem to help his cooking any. :D

wandking	25 Dec 2004
now there's an idea, put sea-salt on my Thoth and then maybe sauté them in butter... Hey, I could start a new thread on innovative deck care!

Imagemaker	25 Dec 2004
Quote: put sea-salt on my Thoth and then maybe sauté them in butter. Tarot recipes! Would go well in the herbal threads--we write directions for burning sage to cleanse them, how about some other ingredients and directions? :) How about chocolate sprinkles for sweetening a grouchy deck?

wandking	25 Dec 2004
that's probably better, Crowley appears a bit self-indulgent in history... I bet he'd like chocolate better than sea-salt.

The And then they lie... Now what? thread was originally posted on 22 Dec 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.