Giving and receiving feedback at Aeclectic

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 24 Dec 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Moongold	24 Dec 2004
I am not sure that this is the right place to put this thread. I decided to try it here because feedback at Aeclectic now generally relates to Tarot in some way or other. It might be in a reading or a discussion or debate. Moderators - please feel fee to move this thread if you feel it is out of place. I did not put the thread in CHAT or SPIRITUALITY because they seemed more irrelevant and are subscriber only forums as well. Giving and receiving feedback is a skill which often has to be learned. Since the subject has come a lot on the forums in different ways it might be useful to look at some guidelines that are fairly general but good and which see the act of giving and receiving feedback is a process, a dialogue. It's best not to give or receive feedback when one is not calm. Giving feedback 1. Be clear about what you want to say 2. Emphasize the positive because there is always a positive. Sometimees there are genuinely more positives than negatives. 3. Be specific and give examples. Generalizations are not really very helpful and can be misinterpreted. 4. Focus on the actions, words, behaviour, not the person 5. Refer to behavior that can be changed eg. I might make spelling mistakes that really annoy you but if I am making them because I have a visual impairment there may not much I can do about it and it might be an act of courage that I am even posting LOL. 6. Describe what concerns you. Don’t judge it :) Saying something like You seem to seem to like La Pape and attribute powers tp him that I don't think appropriate " is a little different from saying " Catholics who still subscibe to all that Pope nonsense are circumscribed in their thinking" 7. Take responsibility for the feedback. Don’t use the term “Others” instead of “I”. 8. Avoid generalizations. They are really hard to respond to. Try to always be specific. 9. Try to avoid the scattergun approach or an avalanche of critical feedback. Giving an avalanche of feedback is almost always likely to be seen as an attack. 10. Try to avoid advice unless sought. Most people can work out their own best solutions or responses and it is important that they feel they have the space and time to do that. Receiving feedback is as much an art as giving it :) 1. Listen to what is being said without denial or defensiveness 2. Respect its value and the writer’s right to say it. 3. Ask for clarification where you need it. 4. Try to understand the feedback.. 5. See feedback as a way of learning and improving. 6. It's good to respond if possible because feedback is a process, a dialogue. 7. You do not have to accept the feedback. You do have a choice. It may not be correct after all. But consider it thoughtfully anyway. You don't have to enter into an ragument about it. You can simply put it aside if it does not seem appropriate. And you don't have to let the other know what you ultimately will do with their feedback. 8. Thank the feedback giver. I am more used to using these principles in professional supervision. Most of us are not used to giving feed back of this kind in day to day situations but I try to use these principles in day to day situations as well. There are some good cartoons about this stuff but I can't access then right now. John Cleese also did a great video. Moongold

Moongold	24 Dec 2004
Quote: You do not have to accept the feedback. You do have a choice. It may not be correct after all. But consider it thoughtfully anyway. You don't have to enter into an ragument about it. You can simply put it aside if it does not seem appropriate. PS ...... a ragument is what happens when you end up being run ragged in an argument. :)

contrascarpe	24 Dec 2004
Thanks Moongold ..... nice guidelines. I am not always concerned about feedback personally .... don't get me wrong, it is nice to receive it, and even nicer to know that I touched someone somehow. Knowing a seeker has gotten something out of their reading always makes me feel good. There have been a few times when I see someone read here on the boards and the feedback they get is "thanks, that was nice". I feel for the reader in those cases. I know how much heart and soul goes into some of these readings. In those cases, I can just picture the dumbfounded look on the readers face when they see this feedback. Tarot reading is a two-way street. Dan

Moongold	24 Dec 2004
Thanks Dan ~ We learned this sort of stuff in management training. Some parts of it came as a real surprise to me - this was about 15 -20 years ago. I had always worked in quite structured and respectful environments like libraries and then gone into the completely diffferent culture of community work. In neither environment was feedback really considered important. One of my reasons for going into management was that I wa sick of being badly managed and learning these skills was part of the professional development associated with that. Nowadays its very common but I was a little concerned about placing them here. This kind of thing is very relevant to tarot but also to the discussions we have here. However they are only guidelines and nobody would wish to impose them on anyone else Some people already give feedback beautifully. Others don't give it at all. We give staff training around this sort of stuff as it is not as easy as it looks. Hopefully someone will find it useful.

MeeWah	25 Dec 2004
As a reader, I personally welcome feedback to know the hits & misses but that does not occur on a regular basis. With some readings, I know that various aspects may either manifest in time or not manifest due to changes or other influences within the querent's life--which I understand. I concur with Contrascarpe's well-expressed summation. One is left to wonder the intent or the understanding with which the efforts received.

firemaiden	25 Dec 2004
When I read, I pretty much already know that my querants are going to have one hell of a rough time figuring out how to respond to my readings. My readings have been pretty wildly off the wall, so I really don't expect much more feedback than "wow, that was weird, and some of it made sense too". As for feedback about hit or misses with readings - what seems like a miss, might have been a dead hit, but how will we know until time has gone by? For example - A year ago, Meewah did an interpretation of a reading Aoife posted for her friend (who had just met a new boyfriend met on an internet dating service). As was discussed in Aoife's recent "Umbrae knocks my socks off" thread - a new reading for the same couple - Meewah's interpretation of the first reading were so alarming at the time, that it seemed (or we hoped) it was wildly off. Only now, a year later, after things have finally unfolded, has it become apparent that her early predictions had been absolutely dead on... unfortunately.

Moongold	25 Dec 2004
firemaiden wrote: For example - A year ago, Meewah did an interpretation of a reading Aoife posted for her friend (who had just met a new boyfriend met on an internet dating service). As was discussed in Aoife's recent "Umbrae knocks my socks off" thread - a new reading for the same couple - Meewah's interpretation of the first reading were so alarming at the time, that it seemed (or we hoped) it was wildly off. Only now, a year later, after things have finally unfolded, has it become apparent that her early predictions had been absolutely dead on... unfortunately. I remember the interpretation and wondered if it was the same person involved in the recent "Your Readings" post re Umbrae's relationship spread. Just went back now and read it again. Yes, it is certainly uncanny. Aoife did give quite a lot of feedback to MeeWah and there was a dialogue. This is one of the reasons why it stayed in my mind. The whole process was much richer because of that dialogue between MeeWah and Aoife. Feedback need not be formulaic at all. This kind of dialogue is a perfect example of a response, whatever word we llike to use. The Querent's response is part of the reading process.

Diana	25 Dec 2004
Oh my goodness Moongold!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: Where is there room for SPONTENEITY in your guidelines???? Your guidelines scare me. Literally. If I have to choose, I would much prefer an emotional outburst to carefully thought-out strategically politically correct management training guidelines. I refuse categorically to be a robot. How can one get to know people if they can't be themselves? Oh dearie me... :(

Moongold	25 Dec 2004
Diana ~ These are simply hints, not rules; guidelines, not laws. There is plenty of room for spontaneity. In any discussion you throw every thing into the mix. People can take what they want and leave the rest behind. Same for these. I think that more people than we realise would value some suggestions. It is quite hard often to give AND receive feedback, or a response or whatever term people want to use. These suggestions are not aimed at Tarot readings specifically at all. They are useful principles to apply in anay discussion. Some have been thrown into the suggestion arena many times. Moongold

contrascarpe	25 Dec 2004
Yes, I see these not so much as rules, but food for thought when giving feedback. Something for new members of the reading exchange to take a gander at before entering the murky waters of feedback. That is why I believe I love doing the Reflecting Pools readings so much (kind of ironic that you are next up with that, Moongold, hehe). When I am doing a RP reading, I get lost in the emotion and the story of one's life (hopefully) unfolding before me. Without exception, the feedback I have received is emotional, thoughtful and detailed. It seems like the seeker is getting caught up in the same maelstrom that I did when doing the reading. And that is so satisfying to me. Dan

Fudugazi	25 Dec 2004
Moongold wrote: These are simply hints, not rules; guidelines, not laws. There is plenty of room for spontaneity. In any discussion you throw every thing into the mix. People can take what they want and leave the rest behind. Same for these. That's how I read them. Very useful guidelines for anyone scratching their heads and wondering how to give feedback that won't be so vague it's pointless, or turned in such a way it might hurt the person receiving it. However, I think it's difficult on the internet, because we don't know who we are talking to: if I say to you - "I think that your view of the Hermit as a good advice-giver doesn't really fit because here in this card we see the advice turning really wrong, I would say that in this reading he is a person who has so detached himself from the world he can no longer understand some of its preoccupations, etc. etc." - am I going to hurt your feelings? I don't know how much you have invested in the Hermit being a good advice giver. I have to be truthful, but that's a risk. I think many have got burnt in the past on the internet, and tread carefully. They have seen their feedback taken as insult, their teasing as an attack, even simple questions as challenges. That's why your second part - how to receive feedback- is as important as the first!! I do like Diana's suggestion (in the "what have we achieved" thread) of feedback taking the form of discussion. "Interesting what you say about VIIII-L'Ermite, how did you come to this? How about L'Ermite interacting here with the VIIII Swords, which seems here to indicate some kind of intellectual crisis, and there with XVIIII-Le Soleil just after, which could show its resolution, and the birth of a new conscience closer to the world than the Hermit's solitude allows, etc.. " And leading into discussion about the cards, the numerology, the interaction between them, etc.

contrascarpe	25 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: I have to be truthful, but that's a risk. I think many have got burnt in the past on the internet, and tread carefully. They have seen their feedback taken as insult, their teasing as an attack, even simple questions as challenges. I haven't seen many times where teasing or questions are problems in feedback (but then again, I don't look at all of the readings). These are usually problems in other areas of the boards. Personally, I see this issue depends on many factors. First, you have to look at the intent of the seeker receiving the readings. Are they a seasoned vet looking for a hard answer to an important question? Or are they one of those seekers I like to call the "hit and run" - they need a reading bad so they come here and A) ask for a reading ignorant of the rule of 25 posts (I believe that is moot now with the new boards) or B) quickly welcome "new" members (which I think is hysterical because those they tend to welcome have been on the boards longer than them) to quickly rack up those 25 posts. Then there is vet who sees the Exchange as a nice place to help provide practice. I do this sometimes if an offer is made by one of the many wonderful readers here, or if someone just starting out wants practice and honest feedback. On some of my readings I ask that the seeker have at least 100 posts. I was criticized on this once saying I was being elitist, but when I have that requirement in there, it is because I am doing a reading where feedback is actually important to me. As far as taking things personally, this has only happened to me once. I did a reading and the feedback was, IMO, somewhat scathing. I did take it personal at the time but Gardener put it in perspective - apparently I told this person something they didn't want to hear (that happens often as well I can see). Oh, and I just remembered one time this occurred in person. The woman I was reading for came in as a doubter. I was already somewhat used to this and took it with a grain of salt. I started reading the cards and picking up on some little clues here and there. As the reading went on, she became highly agitated and kept telling me that nothing was making sense ...... I was thinking otherwise, but went along with the flow. By the end, I figured out what it was - she was having an affair with her married boss. I didn't come out and say that, but when the reading was over, she politely thanked me and almost RAN out of the store (yes, she did pay before she left, hehe). The lesson I learned is that if I am dissatisfied with the feedback here on AT, I will probably not read for that person again. Luckily, I see very few people here where that would be considered a problem. Dan

Fudugazi	25 Dec 2004
contrascarpe wrote: The lesson I learned is that if I am dissatisfied with the feedback here on AT, I will probably not read for that person again. Luckily, I see very few people here where that would be considered a problem. Dan That's probably a good rule of thumb as between reader and querent! But - I don't think feedback on AT is only to be regarded as between the reader and querent: as this is a public forum, anyone should be able to give feedback for any public reading. E.g. if you read for X, and I remark - "well, funny you should say that about the III- Cups, I would have thought that with the VII-Swords it meant (xyz), can you explain your reasoning?" then that is a legitimate feedback, no? It concerns more the type of reading, than the subject, but reading practice is also about looking at how we all approach and interpret the cards, learning one from the other.

firemaiden	25 Dec 2004
Actually, this thread confuses me... what do you mean exactly by feedback? Your guidelines sound more like rules for fighting fair, or rules for giving criticism. I feel that these rules carry within them an assumption that there is some kind of power relationship - or fighting between two parties. These rules are precisely what singers and actors wish that directors would keep in mind. When giving "feedback" (read "criticism") (to the actor or singer) - Directors (or teachers) need to emphasise the positive, be specific, not general, etc. (and Directors are notoriously bad at this). However, I don't quite understand how these guidelines relate to posts or reading feedback - because the responses to readings are not comments (read criticism) about the skills of the reader from some sort of master, they are simply responses to what hit and what missed. It is a relationship of equals comparing notes.

tmgrl2	25 Dec 2004
firemaiden wrote: Actually, this thread confuses me... what do you mean exactly by feedback? Your guidelines sound more like rules for fighting fair, or rules for giving criticism. I feel that these rules carry within them an assumption that there is some kind of power relationship - or fighting between two parties. These rules are precisely what singers and actors wish that directors would keep in mind. When giving "feedback" (read "criticism") (to the actor or singer) - Directors (or teachers) need to emphasise the positive, be specific, not general, etc. (and Directors are notoriously bad at this). However, I don't quite understand how these guidelines relate to posts or reading feedback - because the responses to readings are not comments (read criticism) about the skills of the reader from some sort of master, they are simply responses to what hit and what missed. It is a relationship of equals comparing notes. I agree totally! terri

WalesWoman	25 Dec 2004
I hope I haven't stepped on feelings with my feedbacks for spreads or in other parts of the forum, but if what I think I see might be something a person might not want to be public, I'll use the PM first. I also have a terrible habit of being irreverent and finding ironies in most things, if not under some control becomes a bit sarcastic and hopefully not caustic. I don't want to hurt peoples feelings, but I would like them to see humor in the situation, it always sort of helps get over the rough spots. But I try to put myself in the persons place who is going to be reading it without giving false hopes or dire outcomes, as honestly as possible, without brutality. I am not an expert, I can be wrong and I want them to realize that as well...that my interpretations are open to interpretation and try not to sound all pompous and full of myself. (Being Leo, this is very hard) I personally like feedback with a loads of details, if a person disagrees with my interpretation, it's good to know...I know I have a long way to go and a lot to learn yet and would rather know why that person thinks I'm off rather than not know why they didn't bother to respond. Also when getting feedback, I get so much more from it when the person tells me why they get the meanings they do...helping me to understand the cards better as well as seeing how it applies to my situation in a way that hadn't occured to me and improves my reading skills. This is a wonderful forum, the members are great, so much variety, so many levels of experience and has so much to offer...mostly a community of kindred spirits offering their knowledge, support and enthusiasm to each other. I appreciate this so much and bless you all.

Anna	25 Dec 2004
I don't know... it just dosn't feel like a very REAL way to communicate to me. I couldn't (and wouldn't) follow a list like this. I need to be me.

Ace	25 Dec 2004
Thanks, Moongold. I think this should be a sticky in the Reading Exchange. We all have our own way of giving feedback and accepting feedback. Your list is NOT a strict, one true way, form. But if someone has needed and recieved a reading for the first time, this would make a good starting point for what to say in feedback. And if someone is getting feedback for their first reading given, I hope it will help them in interpreting what they preceive as criticism and see it instead as critique. For myself, I want detailed feedback on the readings I give. I would not change what I read, but I do believe that the readee (the querent) should be able to understand (NOT necessarily to agree-just understand) what was said by the reader. If they don't, feedback will help them to express that, and the reader can explain themselves again, until by a dialog, the reading is clear to the querent and whatever benefit there is, is achieved. These are good guildlines and only guidlines, but I feel they were well expressed. Thank you again Moongold for spending the time to think this out and say it.

Ace	25 Dec 2004
contrascarpe wrote: Personally, I see this issue depends on many factors. First, you have to look at the intent of the seeker receiving the readings. Are they a seasoned vet looking for a hard answer to an important question? Or are they one of those seekers I like to call the "hit and run" - they need a reading bad so they come here and A) ask for a reading ignorant of the rule of 25 posts (I believe that is moot now with the new boards) or B) quickly welcome "new" members (which I think is hysterical because those they tend to welcome have been on the boards longer than them) to quickly rack up those 25 posts. Then there is vet who sees the Exchange as a nice place to help provide practice. I do this sometimes if an offer is made by one of the many wonderful readers here, or if someone just starting out wants practice and honest feedback. On some of my readings I ask that the seeker have at least 100 posts. I was criticized on this once saying I was being elitist, but when I have that requirement in there, it is because I am doing a reading where feedback is actually important to me. I agree! As a private reader, I make people wait a week before I read them. I set up an appointment, at least a week in advance of reading date-no exceptions. I lose readings all the time because of this. But I won't change that rule. The reason? a person who wants a reading RIGHT NOW wants specific answers. NOT information, answers. They want to know they are right. Their boyfriend (who just left them) is still in love with them, or something similar. If I say, he doesn't love you, they don't believe me. If they wait a week, then get their reading, they have had time to distance themselves from what they want, and they are ready to hear the reality that is there, not what they want to hear. I think making people have 100 posts before accepting a reading, does the same thing. It gives the querent-the requester, a chance to see what tarot can do for them, or not as the case may be. THey come as a seeker, not as a person looking for a way out of their pain.

Moongold	25 Dec 2004
firemaiden wrote: Actually, this thread confuses me... what do you mean exactly by feedback? Your guidelines sound more like rules for fighting fair, or rules for giving criticism. I feel that these rules carry within them an assumption that there is some kind of power relationship - or fighting between two parties. These rules are precisely what singers and actors wish that directors would keep in mind. When giving "feedback" (read "criticism") (to the actor or singer) - Directors (or teachers) need to emphasise the positive, be specific, not general, etc. (and Directors are notoriously bad at this). However, I don't quite understand how these guidelines relate to posts or reading feedback - because the responses to readings are not comments (read criticism) about the skills of the reader from some sort of master, they are simply responses to what hit and what missed. It is a relationship of equals comparing notes. Hi firemaiden ~ These are valid comments and questions. Feedback is a broad term. It very general terms it can mean simply a response. On Aeclectic this response may be to a reading, a debate, and idea or discussion. By the way, I think a response can include much more than reference to hits and misses. Readings work on lots of levels. That is a significant one but not the only one. Last night it occurred to me that in fact the word response might be a better term than feedback in the context of this forum. We do use the word "feedback" quite a lot though. As I"ve said already this is just a list of guidelines, hints, general principles. It wasn't written just for Aeclectic, although I tried to make it relevant by giving examples we would be familiar with. The principles are fairly well known all over the place. They're in a list simply because it is easier to organize and read that way. There is no intention to create a check list. Hahaha - I knew that some people would see that but NO. It is simply a list of ideas. that people may find useful. Some of these suggestions have already been discussed here many times but particularly after conflict in the so-called "political" threads. I think that as a general set of guidelines they're useful. Commonsense really. I take your point about the feeling that they would be more applicable in a relationship where power is unequal. I suspect that is because people most often perceive formal feedback being given in such sitations. It doesn't have to so at all. And these principles can apply singly or in groups to any situation, including readings. The purpose of the thread was to float some ideas or guidelines, whatever, about how to give feedback because there has been a lot of discussion about it lately. These are not prescriptive and people can take or leave them. I put the thread up yesterday and there were a lot of views in a relatively short time so my purpose has been achieved. Most people will not comment but maybe they may have taken something useful from the thread and it is here for future reference.

Moongold	25 Dec 2004
WalesWoman wrote: I hope I haven't stepped on feelings with my feedbacks for spreads or in other parts of the forum, but if what I think I see might be something a person might not want to be public, I'll use the PM first. I also have a terrible habit of being irreverent and finding ironies in most things, if not under some control becomes a bit sarcastic and hopefully not caustic. I don't want to hurt peoples feelings, but I would like them to see humor in the situation, it always sort of helps get over the rough spots. But I try to put myself in the persons place who is going to be reading it without giving false hopes or dire outcomes, as honestly as possible, without brutality. I am not an expert, I can be wrong and I want them to realize that as well...that my interpretations are open to interpretation and try not to sound all pompous and full of myself. (Being Leo, this is very hard) I personally like feedback with a loads of details, if a person disagrees with my interpretation, it's good to know...I know I have a long way to go and a lot to learn yet and would rather know why that person thinks I'm off rather than not know why they didn't bother to respond. Also when getting feedback, I get so much more from it when the person tells me why they get the meanings they do...helping me to understand the cards better as well as seeing how it applies to my situation in a way that hadn't occured to me and improves my reading skills. This is a wonderful forum, the members are great, so much variety, so many levels of experience and has so much to offer...mostly a community of kindred spirits offering their knowledge, support and enthusiasm to each other. I appreciate this so much and bless you all. Thanks Waleswoman ~ I have noticed that you always give lots of interesting and sensitive feedback! Your point about giving feedback by PM is interesting. Sometimes that is a better and more sensitive way to give a response. It is often a balancing act, isn't it? It's a learning community and a public forum and readings are public within the forum and avidly read by many people. There is also a feeing of exposure when you are relatively new, and even afterwards, and often it is a good judgment to give a response to someone by PM.

Moongold	25 Dec 2004
Ace wrote: These are good guildlines and only guidelines, but I feel they were well expressed. Thank you again Moongold for spending the time to think this out and say it. Thanks Ace. This is eactly what I meant. Guidelines, suggestions, principles ideas to be used singly or collectively - whatever suits people. The people who have responded so far are people who generally have no apparent difficulty writing or expressing themselves and do so frequently in the forums. They usually have no difficulty in responding to anything. I am like that myself. Look at the number of posts! LOL. CP, I know that writing can be problematic for you! It is easy to assume that others have the same degree of competence or confidence in giving feedback. For a long time (before Aeclectic) I didn't feel confident in saying a great deal at all. It was tertiary education - being in discussion groups with peers and having to think, plan and write 10,000 word essays that gave me skills and confidence I didn't really have in great measure until I was in my 40's. I did in a vocational sense. I could speak about librarianship without too much difficulty but thinking conceptually and critically are often skills that require learning and practice. This might sound a little silly - but for some of us even the skill and confidence to think critically takes along time to develop. I use the "critically" in a non-negative way here. When I was in high-school this capacity to think critically used to be called, somewhat oddly "clear thinking" :). It takes some of us some time to find our voices, for a whole variety of reasons which are interesting in themselves but perhaps belong to another thread. Guidelines like this can simply assist in that process of finding your voice and the most effective way of expressing it.

contrascarpe	25 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: But - I don't think feedback on AT is only to be regarded as between the reader and querent: as this is a public forum, anyone should be able to give feedback for any public reading. E.g. if you read for X, and I remark - "well, funny you should say that about the III- Cups, I would have thought that with the VII-Swords it meant (xyz), can you explain your reasoning?" then that is a legitimate feedback, no? It concerns more the type of reading, than the subject, but reading practice is also about looking at how we all approach and interpret the cards, learning one from the other. Helvetica - Yes, I do believe in this in theory. However, sometimes (and I know this may sound hokey to many) I get "visions" when I am reading. Perhaps it is just a flash from some small bit of symbolism on a card, or sometimes I see something quirky in a card and somehow, to me, it relates to its neighboring cards in the spread (which is why I often do not do spreads with set meanings per position). So I guess what I am saying is that I cannot always explain why I see what I see. I do often go with RWS meanings (if it is a RWS style deck) but not always. So in that case, if I do a reading for someone and the Two of Cups comes up, I may see divorce, or a new job, or something off the wall. If a third party comes in and says "no no no, that has to be love", I feel like it lessens the effect of my reading. We all read differently, and over the course of the past year and a half, I have settled into a somewhat "funky" style. Dan

contrascarpe	25 Dec 2004
firemaiden wrote: However, I don't quite understand how these guidelines relate to posts or reading feedback - because the responses to readings are not comments (read criticism) about the skills of the reader from some sort of master, they are simply responses to what hit and what missed. It is a relationship of equals comparing notes. I don't see these as rules. To me, it is simple - if someone does a reading for someone and they ask for feedback, they should get feedback. I see these as something that perhaps someone new coming on board should at least read to give them an idea as to what should be incorporated in "good" feedback. What is good feedback? It depends I guess on what the reader feels is good. Personally, "hits and misses" is not always what it is about. I like to see the seeker actually come away with something. Perhaps something to think about or even more important, something to be optimistic about. Or maybe perhaps distance themselves from self-destructive behavior. If a reader is good, they can convey this without being blunt. No, to me Moongold's guidelines are a primer in introducing new seekers to remember one vital thing in the reading relationship - courtesy. Dan

Catpaw	26 Dec 2004
I thank all of the follks who have offered their comments (feedback) to my postings. I apreciate all insights and have learned much from each one. I think MoonGold offers general communication guidelines for us since we cannot communicate face-to-face and sometimes the written word can be cold, unfeeling, and a bit too objective. I thank her for reminding us of this and I wil try harder to think about this as I post comments. That said, as a journalist and engineer, I am prone to stating what I initially see/feel but I certainly do not want to offend anyone. I am trying to provide comments that can help each of us see a different way or to look for a positive approach to our situations as presented in the cards. I am not always successful but that is my intent. I am so thankful to have this site. It is the only means I have to communicate on a regualr basis with others in the study of Tarot.

Fudugazi	26 Dec 2004
contrascarpe wrote: sometimes (and I know this may sound hokey to many) I get "visions" when I am reading. Perhaps it is just a flash from some small bit of symbolism on a card, or sometimes I see something quirky in a card and somehow, to me, it relates to its neighboring cards in the spread (which is why I often do not do spreads with set meanings per position). So I guess what I am saying is that I cannot always explain why I see what I see. I do often go with RWS meanings (if it is a RWS style deck) but not always. So in that case, if I do a reading for someone and the Two of Cups comes up, I may see divorce, or a new job, or something off the wall. If a third party comes in and says "no no no, that has to be love", I feel like it lessens the effect of my reading. We all read differently, and over the course of the past year and a half, I have settled into a somewhat "funky" style. Well, I am a writer, so such brain-wave visions are a familiar occurence (when things go well!). But I am still asked "what did you mean when you wrote that...?" And yes, it does take some effort to work through the intuition and say "well, the mango, together with the girl's wedding dress, symbolises..." (when the mango might have just popped into a scene without my looking for it). I think intuition and logic can be reconciled. When a scientist has an intuition, she'll go with it, but in order to get it accepted by the rest of the scientific world, she will have to go back and find a logical way of demonstrating her intuition. I think that is possible with tarot, although by no means everyone wants to do it. And that's fine too. If someone says to me "I don't know, I feel it", I might be frustrated, because I hope to help my own intuition by seeing correspondences I might not have thought of, but I won't demand more than someone is able to offer. I'm not quite sure why explaining or justifying would lessen the effect of the reading, any more than wondering about the symbolism of a mango in a story might, but if you say it does for you, I have to accept your reservations. Still it doesn't change the fact that the left-right brain link does exists.

WhiteRaven	26 Dec 2004
I find your guidelines unbalanced and you have basically lifted any resposibility from the reader which is not fair and both Reader and Querant should take the responsibility of giving and receiving evenly. Quote: 7. You do not have to accept the feedback. You do have a choice. It may not be correct after all. But consider it thoughtfully anyway. You don't have to enter into an ragument about it. You can simply put it aside if it does not seem appropriate. And you don't have to let the other know what you ultimately will do with their feedback. This statement basically tells the reader that their interps are correct. Period and to ignore what the feedback is saying whether it's the truth or not. How does the reader deem it to be the truth when they have no clue what's going on with the Querant in the first place. If a reader is going to start describing a situation or person that the querant is already quite aware of and sees that the interp is wrong, tells the reader...how does this give the reader permission to shrug off what the Querant has told them in feedback. What's the point of feedback then if one is going to ignore it if it's "bad" or "not correct". This puzzles me. How can the Querant be wrong when the reality is surrounding them. You lay a lot of responsiblity of sugar coating the feedback to the reader upon the querant and in the same breath you are basically telling the Reader that they don't have to believe anything that comes out of the Querants mouth in feedback... This, to me, makes no sense and makes for a complete imbalance within the structure of your guidelines.

wildchilde	26 Dec 2004
This thread has really helped me and I would like to thank Moongold for her observations, as well as all the people who have posted regarding this topic. I tend to look at feedback and the ensuing dialogue afterwards as Ace suggests in this statement: Quote: For myself, I want detailed feedback on the readings I give. I would not change what I read, but I do believe that the readee (the querent) should be able to understand (NOT necessarily to agree-just understand) what was said by the reader. If they don't, feedback will help them to express that, and the reader can explain themselves again, until by a dialog, the reading is clear to the querent and whatever benefit there is, is achieved. However I have recently found that not all readers or querents agree with this formulae. The last time I did a reading where I felt compelled by the querent's feedback to "explain myself again" (what I saw in the cards as the reader), my statements completely shut down the querent's wish to "dialogue" and ended up becoming a very painful situation for both of us. I have since been trying to find new and better ways of listening and communicating about the feedback which do not lead the querent to feel that their view of the cards is invalid or that I as the reader am being 'egotistical' or blind to their own reality in my statements about what I see in the cards that are thrown. I wonder if anyone has any suggestions about what to do in the feedback process when either party feels they are not being heard, or feels that a readers statements of how they see the cards are an attack on the person who asked the question, and thus the possibility of continuing dialogue on the reading is cut off?

WhiteRaven	26 Dec 2004
What's the point of feedback if the Reader is going to remain "right" no matter what. So Querants might as well lie and say whatever candy coats the reading/feedback and walk away shaking their heads and promising never to return to the said reader again because they were not heard nor was anything they said to the REader believed...there has got to be an ego trip going on here...I'm sorry...if I'm reading and the querant says that I've described something wrong that they are fully aware of because they are living in that situation then I'm going to stop there and say ok..I'm sorry, I'm wrong and perhaps this card is trying to say something else..and I will look at the spread again, taking into consideration the new information that has been added. I will not turn around and argue with the Querant just because I want to be right. Again...what's the point of feedback if you don't want to see the truth, even if that "truth" means you were wrong. And what's the point of going around and around in circles over feedback with the reader and querant when it could lead to a snowball effect and things get even worse. Hey...If I give feedback and the reader comes back at me more aggressive...I'm not going to sit there and take verbal or emotional abuse...I've been through that in my real life..I'm not going to take it from anybody that doesn't really know me. Sorry...not this chickie. I'll walk away with my intergrity in tact.

Moongold	26 Dec 2004
wildchilde wrote: I wonder if anyone has any suggestions about what to do in the feedback process when either party feels they are not being heard, or feels that a readers statements of how they see the cards are an attack on the person who asked the question, and thus the possibility of continuing dialogue on the reading is cut off? Sometimes there may simply a difference that cannot be resolved. In which case, hopefully the parties would agree to disagree and let it go peacefully at that. This happens in many areas of life. There is sometimes simply difference. Also, sometimes people have other emotional needs they are seeking to meet through the reading. They may not even be aware of these. It takes discernment and respect from the reader to handle these situations appropriately. Sometimes I think a code of ethics which explains simply what the boundaries of the reading are might help facilitate a harmonious experience for both reader and querent. It would be interesting to hear what others think.

Moongold	26 Dec 2004
WhiteRaven wrote: I find your guidelines unbalanced and you have basically lifted any resposibility from the reader which is not fair and both Reader and Querant should take the responsibility of giving and receiving evenly. WhiteRaven ~ These are simply suggested guidelines for people to use or not use as they see fit. They don't allocate responsibility to any one - reader or querent. That is for both parties to decide themselves. I did say somewhere in the introduction that feedback is a two way process, a dialogue. Readings here are given for free in the spirit of a learning community. Both readers and querents are learning at the same time. It's hard to argue with a belief or an opinion. If there is a difference, the best that can be hoped for is that each party would understand and respect the other's opinion, even though s/he may not agree with it. If people do end up in an argument, then I suspect some other dynamic has entered the Reader/Querent relationship and possibly it would be better for both to withdraw. The above is simply a personal opinion.

Fudugazi	26 Dec 2004
WhiteRaven wrote: And what's the point of going around and around in circles over feedback with the reader and querant when it could lead to a snowball effect and things get even worse. Hey...If I give feedback and the reader comes back at me more aggressive...I'm not going to sit there and take verbal or emotional abuse...I've been through that in my real life..I'm not going to take it from anybody that doesn't really know me. Sorry...not this chickie. I'll walk away with my intergrity in tact. It's not necessarily emotional abuse to say to someone "I don't agree". I think we can be talking about different kinds of feedback here. One concerns the life of the person of the querent (e.g "no, the Queen of Swords does not show me divorced, because I have just got married"); but another concerns the way cards are interpreted, independently of the life of the querent ("I don't agree that the Queen of Swords necessarily means a divorced woman"). In which case, the reader might say that in her experience it does. And of course, as someone else pointed out, even in ones own life, we can only know all ends once they are revealed. The person who just got married might be divorced within the year. But I agree with you that the reader should remain humble, as should the querent, and all others participating in feedbacks. As Gandalf tells Frodo about Gollum: "Even the very wise cannot see all ends".

WhiteRaven	26 Dec 2004
Quote: I did say somewhere in the introduction that feedback is a two way process, a dialogue. And below contradicts that first statement. Quote: 7. You do not have to accept the feedback. You do have a choice. It may not be correct after all. But consider it thoughtfully anyway. You don't have to enter into an ragument about it. You can simply put it aside if it does not seem appropriate. And you don't have to let the other know what you ultimately will do with their feedback. You are taking away all responsibility of accepting "feedback". So why bother in the first place. What does candy coated feedback do for anyone but boost the ego of the reader and possibly, send them off on a track that could possibly make them look like fools later on..in the forum or perhaps in real life. What if that Reader that you deem "wrong" and is "wrong" plans to base his life income on readings and if no one is going to tell them they are wrong they just might not survive on what they believe to be a solid way of making a living because they've never been "wrong". I wouldn't want that on my conscious. Quote: Readings here are given for free in the spirit of a learning community. Both readers and querents are learning at the same time. Well, in my humble opinion, a learning community is somewhere, much like a school, where if you do an essay that really isn't very good, the person that is grading that essay will tell you where you went wrong simply to show you how to improve your skills in writing. Same in a "learning" community. The only thing different here is it's your "peers" that are the proverbial "graders". Does that make it any less significant if a "grader" sees that the "reading" is "wrong"? Quote: Both readers and querents are learning at the same time. It's hard to argue with a belief or an opinion. And if one is arguing with pure "fact"...then what? Quote: If people do end up in an argument, then I suspect some other dynamic has entered the Reader/Querent relationship and possibly it would be better for both to withdraw. Yes, the other dynamic being "truth" and "fact" and the fact that the Reader can not accept the fact that they are wrong. Again I will say, I have a few things to ponder upon in the new year.

WhiteRaven	26 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: It's not necessarily emotional abuse to say to someone "I don't agree". I think we can be talking about different kinds of feedback here. One concerns the life of the person of the querent (e.g "no, the Queen of Swords does not show me divorced, because I have just got married"); but another concerns the way cards are interpreted, independently of the life of the querent ("I don't agree that the Queen of Swords necessarily means a divorced woman"). In which case, the reader might say that in her experience it does. And of course, as someone else pointed out, even in ones own life, we can only know all ends once they are revealed. The person who just got married might be divorced within the year. But I agree with you that the reader should remain humble, as should the querent, and all others participating in feedbacks. As Gandalf tells Frodo about Gollum: "Even the very wise cannot see all ends". I'm speaking soley about Readers that come back aggressive. I'm not going to go to detail here..I've tried to explain it as clearly as I can... I'm coming from my own experience. What I have had happen to me. I've explained it to the best of my ability in another thread recently. I'd rather not try and bring it up here again because this topic will get pushed off in another direction. I'm addressing the guidelines that MoonGold has posted and how I feel they are not equal and how I am personally not comfortable with #7 for the "Reader". This erases all responsibility for the Reader. This is not helping the reader when the feedback is negative. How can one look at that and say that it's a healthy learning process to walk away and ignore negative feedback? This is my question here...the imbalance within the Guidelines is quite obvious. At a glance they look great. But if you really start thinking about the content of some of the clauses...you get this huge question mark above your head...at least I do.

Ruby7	26 Dec 2004
I think it also has to be noted that the querent is not always "right" either, even about what is going on in their own lives since sometimes the querent does not like what a reading reveals, or is not admitting to something in their subconscious. It can also take time for a reading to be revealed as accurate or not. Moongold is simply suggesting that we all keep open minds and be willing to have an open dialogue.

WhiteRaven	26 Dec 2004
Ruby7 wrote: I think it also has to be noted that the querent is not always "right" either, even about what is going on in their own lives since sometimes the querent does not like what a reading reveals, or is not admitting to something in their subconscious. It can also take time for a reading to be revealed as accurate or not. Moongold is simply suggesting that we all keep open minds and be willing to have an open dialogue. I totally agree with you in regards to the reaction of the querant and yes..there are times none of us like to hear what a reader will say to us...but when it's quite clear they are wrong...sorry...it doesn't work for me. I've just had a great example with myself and my partner for this week in the circle. I see pregnancy...she's saying "no way". She knows better than I do...obviously...so I'm wrong and I told her why I came to that conclusion but I also see where she's come to her own conclusion of the reading. I'm not going to get my nose out of joint because she says I'm "wrong"...no and this is the point I'm trying to make here. We can be wrong and when a querant says we are wrong...why deny what the querant is saying to us?...why close our eyes to the possibilities of the card or cards meaning something else. This is really getting to be quite the issue here. Do we all think we are "right" all the time? I certainly hope not. A couple of months ago I posted a reading about my Step-fathers health and literally got condolences through PM's. He's still kicking and yes...within the spread it said that there would be a decline..and there was/is in regards to his Alzeimers...but he looked awfully healthy to me yesterday. I, too, thought that it looked really bad in that spread...but I was obviously "wrong".

Moongold	26 Dec 2004
WhiteRaven wrote: I totally agree with you in regards to the reaction of the querant and yes..there are times none of us like to hear what a reader will say to us...but when it's quite clear they are wrong...sorry...it doesn't work for me. I've just had a great example with myself and my partner for this week in the circle. I see pregnancy...she's saying "no way". She knows better than I do...obviously...so I'm wrong and I told her why I came to that conclusion but I also see where she's come to her own conclusion of the reading. I'm not going to get my nose out of joint because she says I'm "wrong"...no and this is the point I'm trying to make here. We can be wrong and when a querant says we are wrong...why deny what the querant is saying to us?...why close our eyes to the possibilities of the card or cards meaning something else. This is really getting to be quite the issue here. Do we all think we are "right" all the time? I certainly hope not. A couple of months ago I posted a reading about my Step-fathers health and literally got condolences through PM's. He's still kicking and yes...within the spread it said that there would be a decline..and there was/is in regards to his Alzeimers...but he looked awfully healthy to me yesterday. I, too, thought that it looked really bad in that spread...but I was obviously "wrong". I think you have touched on an important point here. The guidelines I suggested refer only to style and process - how the process of feedback might happen in away that respects both Querent and reader. Content, including hits and misses, is also a valid area for feedback but it is really difficult sometimes. For example your seeing "pregnancy" in the case of your Querent might happen sometime in her future. firemaiden at the beginning of this thread refers to feedback MeeWah gave on a reading that seemed really "off" at the time but in fact was entirely accurate and proven to be so twelve months down the track. Marion recently gave some feedback of a reading which turned out to be completely accurate but retrospective. My point is, it is sometimes hard to know whether the content is accurate or not. Such things may not be worth arguing about. Tarot is sometimes quite beyond our understanding and if we accept that most have good intent and are variously skilled an atmosphere of tolerance and good will is likely to prevail. We hopefully can have some fun with all this as well.

Ruby7	26 Dec 2004
Moongold wrote: Tarot is sometimes quite beyond our understanding and if we accept that most have good intent and are variously skilled an atmosphere of tolerance and good will is likely to prevail. We hopefully can have some fun with all this as well. Exactly :)

WhiteRaven	26 Dec 2004
Whatever the reason for one to want feedback...it should be taken as is and not argued upon. If one doesn't want to receive both negative and positive then specify before hand. AGain...lay out the rules and specify that feedback is welcomed, just as long as it's positive feedback. No negative feedback is accepted. The guidelines that you have drawn up makes it quite easy for any reader to accept what they want and ignore the rest...and again I will state..what's the use of feedback if you're not going to take what is really given to you as such. You have not addressed my uncomfortableness (if that's a word) with clause # 7 in the "Reader's" set of guidelines in regards to accepting feedback because you're saying they don't have to accept it at all. So what's the point in giving feedback at all. I've directed you to this twice and now the third time and you still won't address this. You are avoiding it and I have to ask myself why. Perhaps because you don't like negative feedback either? Nobody does MoonGold. It's part of a learning process when someone is telling us where we are going wrong. I will always see negative feedback as a chance to learn something that perhaps I wouldn't have noticed or wouldn't have ever come up with by myself or if no one would have corrected me on it. I would hope that there are some that are in this forum that also look at negative feedback as a part of learning. And I know for a fact that there are many readers within this forum that would want to know if they were wrong or off track because they see it much the same as I do..it's a learning process and nobody learns anything if we are all considered "right" all the time. I was invited to a thread last week for learning purposes. The person that invited me PM'd me afterwords and told me that my interp was very good and told me that I need to cut the words and get to the point much like I did in that thread. This is coming from someone that is looked upon in this forum as quite the experienced reader....however, within that thread I was questioned upon my interp...I have no idea why because of the PM I received..however, I went along and did not listen to the person that PM'd me giving me praise....I walked into another trap and went totally off the wall with my interp because I second guessed myself...once I started to go off track I was ignored in the thread. I would have perferred to have been addressed and told I was going off track. But nobody did that for me...thus..how do I learn? And some will say that it's our own responsibility to "learn" and to find our own learning process...well..that's what this forum is all about..."learning"....but you can not learn anything if others are not addressing you when you are "wrong"....and denying it doesn't help either. I'm repeating myself here...but I still will say that I, personally, am not comfortable with some of your clauses within the structure of your guidelines that are posted within this thread.

Moongold	26 Dec 2004
WhiteRaven wrote: The guidelines that you have drawn up makes it quite easy for any reader to accept what they want and ignore the rest...and again I will state..what's the use of feedback if you're not going to take what is really given to you as such. You have not addressed my uncomfortableness (if that's a word) with clause # 7 in the "Reader's" set of guidelines in regards to accepting feedback because you're saying they don't have to accept it at all. So what's the point in giving feedback at all. I've directed you to this twice and now the third time and you still won't address this. You are avoiding it and I have to ask myself why. Perhaps because you don't like negative feedback either? Nobody does MoonGold. It's part of a learning process when someone is telling us where we are going wrong. Dear WhiteRaven ~ My apologies. I thought I had addressed your query when I said these are general guidelines - not things that people have to accept or apply. I may not have been clear enough. They are not *my* guidelines by the way but a set of principles that are generally accepted in one form or other in professional development courses on giving feedback. They were not written for Tarot, although I tried to make them relevant to people here. When I said people don't have to accept feedback I meant simply that the feedback may or may not be accurate and recipients of feedback have the right to determine that for themselves. I think I actually did qualify the word "accept" with that proviso. I think it is important to listen to feedback. Anyone would be ill advised not to listen. It is part of the learning process. Many blessings ~ Moongold

WhiteRaven	26 Dec 2004
My main concern in the last few days is the "reaction" of the Reader when given "negative" feedback and I think that has a responsibility as strong as "How" one is to give feedback. That is the only point I am trying to get across in this thread as well as the other one that I, myself, started a couple of days ago. It's fine and dandy to sugar coat the feedback, which I seriously do not see the benefit to the Reader in doing so, but it's also very important how that Reader comes back at the Querant. It often hurts...profoundly for that matter and it could, in some instances, cause quite a lot of harm.

Moongold	26 Dec 2004
Yes. Obviously there has been some considerable pain for you. Can you walk away from that now and negotiate a different arrangement the next time you seek a reading? This could be part of the learning for you. We cannot really change others but we can change the way we react and our own present and future actions. Kate

WhiteRaven	26 Dec 2004
Moongold wrote: Yes. Obviously there has been some considerable pain for you. Can you walk away from that now and negotiate a different arrangement the next time you seek a reading? This could be part of the learning for you. We cannot really change others but we can change the way we react and our own present and future actions. Kate If you are implying that I'm debating what you have posted in here purely because of "pain" I've experienced then you are very wrong. I'm debating the question of how much do we help each other by not stating the facts pure and simple, and not realizing when we are wrong and actually admitting when we are "wrong". I've discussed this very topic a couple of months ago with someone very dear to me and this is wayyy before what has given me "pain". I'm quite offended by your implications that I've based my debate in this thread solely upon what my emotional state is at this moment. It was an example of something that has been bothering me for quite sometime and it actually happened to me after the fact.

WhiteRaven	26 Dec 2004
I've also been told that one must be ....I'll use the word.."gentle" yet..not quite being "honest" to save the "community" as a whole...again..how does this help anyone.

Celtic Star	26 Dec 2004
Moongold, Thanks much for the guidelines on reading and feedback from querents. It seems like common sense when you read them but it helps to see them in print as a daily reminder. Personally, what I find the most frustrating with regard to feedback is not a sugar coated response as I don't feel I get much of that but a very short feedback....ex. yeah,that's great or worse yet, response at all. I sometimes wonder if I'm not developing enough rapport with my sitters to begin with so their comfort level isn't where it should be in order to give more detailed feedback. Or maybe I expect too much feedback from the querent. It's hard to know as people are so different. For myself, I always encourage feedback as it's a method of learning & I appreciate it and take it for what it's worth....positive or negative.

Diana	26 Dec 2004
WhiteRaven wrote: I've also been told that one must be ....I'll use the word.."gentle" yet..not quite being "honest" to save the "community" as a whole...again..how does this help anyone. Are you joking????? (No, obviously you're not....). Is political correctness going to permeate even the READINGS we do on Aeclectic? It's already permeated so many other boards. (We are even wishing people a Happy Holiday on the Chat forum, when obviously we are referring to the 25th December which is Christmas Day.) Can't people just be THEMSELVES? The more rules we have, the more difficult it is to follow and the less freedom we have to express ourselves as individuals. Is the "community" more important than the individuals who make up the community? Isn't Tarot all about personal development? There is nothing harder than giving long and detailed feedback for things that often refer to the future. Sometimes when people have given me readings (privately or on the boards), it's just damn hard to give feedback because how can we say they are right or wrong when they are talking about the future. Also, sometimes the things they reveal are too private and we don't want to discuss them on an internet forum which is open to everyone. Sometimes a heartfelt "thank you" is all the person who has been read for CAN give. And sometimes readings take a long time to digest.

WhiteRaven	26 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: Are you joking????? (No, obviously you're not....). Is political correctness going to permeate even the READINGS we do on Aeclectic? It's already permeated so many other boards. (We are even wishing people a Happy Holiday on the Chat forum, when obviously we are referring to the 25th December which is Christmas Day.) Can't people just be THEMSELVES? The more rules we have, the more difficult it is to follow and the less freedom we have to express ourselves as individuals. Is the "community" more important than the individuals who make up the community? Isn't Tarot all about personal development? There is nothing harder than giving long and detailed feedback for things that often refer to the future. Sometimes when people have given me readings (privately or on the boards), it's just damn hard to give feedback because how can we say they are right or wrong when they are talking about the future. Also, sometimes the things they reveal are too private and we don't want to discuss them on an internet forum which is open to everyone. Sometimes a heartfelt "thank you" is all the person who has been read for CAN give. And sometimes readings take a long time to digest. No..I'm not joking and I did not find it funny when it was told to me. I agree that feedback is hard to give when it's addressing the future. But for the most part there is a large majority of the reading that is "confirming" what is already happening. The Tarot, as many understand it, is not a prediction tool. For the most part, it opens our eyes and gives us "advice"...it is the part of the reading that we already know that I'm addressing. No, I can not tell you what I'm going to be doing next time this month. But I can tell you what I'm thinking at this very moment. If a spread is indicating that I'm going to meet a Knight of Swords in the future...I can not tell you who that person is or what he's like. But if that Knight of Swords is in a position within a said spread that is describing someone I already am suppose to know and the reader is wrong about how this person "is" ..then I am in the position to tell you ..."hey, perhaps you're seeing someone else because your description does not meet that of the person you are indicating"...in otherwords..telling the reader they are "wrong". So, I will agree that in some cases it's literally impossible to give "feedback"...but there are parts of the reading that you can give "feedback"...and those are the areas that my concerns lie.

Diana	26 Dec 2004
WhiteRaven: I agree that if the reader is completely off the mark, they should be told. (I still owe you a reading by the way. For the New Year, perhaps?)

Moongold	26 Dec 2004
Celtic Star wrote: Moongold, Thanks much for the guidelines on reading and feedback from querents. It seems like common sense when you read them but it helps to see them in print as a daily reminder. Personally, what I find the most frustrating with regard to feedback is not a sugar coated response as I don't feel I get much of that but a very short feedback....ex. yeah,that's great or worse yet, response at all. I sometimes wonder if I'm not developing enough rapport with my sitters to begin with so their comfort level isn't where it should be in order to give more detailed feedback. Or maybe I expect too much feedback from the querent. It's hard to know as people are so different. For myself, I always encourage feedback as it's a method of learning & I appreciate it and take it for what it's worth....positive or negative. Thanks Celtic Star ~ I have been fortunate and usually had really good feedback. It has developed over time. I have not been doing extensive readings for a while, although I plan to finish one today (for you, Yemenja, at last). Often I try to comment in Your Readings because that's interesting and it meant a lot to me in the beginning to have such comment. The response often varies but one expects a different response there as well. I think you are right in saying that people are different and readings are very different too. I got a reading a year ago that is still very relevant to me now because it was very significant in dealing with aspects of my character. It was one of those readings where understanding unfolds over time. Thank you for your thoughtful response.

WhiteRaven	26 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: WhiteRaven: I agree that if the reader is completely off the mark, they should be told. (I still owe you a reading by the way. For the New Year, perhaps?) LOL...it's quite alright Diana...thanks for the offer though...it's appreciated. :)

Anna	26 Dec 2004
WhiteRaven wrote: I've also been told that one must be ....I'll use the word.."gentle" yet..not quite being "honest" to save the "community" as a whole...again..how does this help anyone. I don't see how this helps anyone either WhiteRaven.... I want to have real interactions with real people about real issues. I would by far prefer conflict and arguements and criticism and emotional outbursts, to carefully worded diplomatic gentleness. If I cannot be honest, then there is no point in me even speaking. If honesty and realness and individuality are not valued within this community, then I am not sure that its a place I want to be.

WalesWoman	26 Dec 2004
To jump in here or not???? There is a thing called free will...the querant will "see" what they want to see no matter if they agree with the reader or not. The reader can only relate what they interpret from the cards based on their knowledge and intuition, we are only human and are dealing with limited knowledge of the querant in most cases. It really helps to know the person and thier situation, so if I'm told I'm wrong...even tho I may feel they are blinding themselves to the possiblility, so be it. All you can do is say what you truly believe and let go. This applies to readings, exchanges of views and just about everything in life. Way back when, in college there was a book by Wayne Dwyer called "I'm OK, You're OK" that had a very prominent point I have always remembered. You can't convince anyone of anything if they aren't willing to listen. You can't demand anyone to accept your view, even if you have positive proof you are right. You can argue something until you are blue in the face, but it isn't going to change anything unless the person you are arguing with is willing and open to looking at this in an alternative view. Some people will argue for the sake of listening to themselves...and wonder why they have become a group of one. I know I've been way off before on readings, maybe...no one has come back and told me they got pregnant yet...so I just ask if it's possible anymore, if for some reason it sure seems like it's the case. All you can do sometimes is suggest there is a possibility and allow the querant to come to their own conclusions. We are to provide guidance, not enforce it via will power.

Lurea	26 Dec 2004
I really don't understand why Moongold's guidelines have generated so much discussion. They seem to be pretty reasonable to me. WhiteRaven, that number seven is nothing more than the truth--anyone can decide whether or not to accept what someone else says. Some people do accept it, some people don't. :) ;) You can't force anyone to accept feedback. If the exchange gets acrimonious, all you can do is report it to the mods and let them deal with it. And you know what else? You can run, but you can't hide. :laugh: If someone's readings are consistently off, they will wise up in the end, whether they accept it now or not. ;) Let's not forget that there are people here who are beginners and who might be crushed and driven away from the Tarot forever by harsh feedback. Nobody wants that, do they? Diana and CharmingPixie both emphasize this learning aspect in the Let's Marseille forum. Why should it be any different in the rest of the site? I didn't see Moongold or anyone else in this thread suggesting that people lie about a reading's accuracy in order not to hurt the reader's feelings. I do see the suggestion that everyone should try to remain courteous, and mindful of other people's feelings. CharmingPixie wrote: I would by far prefer conflict and arguements and criticism and emotional outbursts, to carefully worded diplomatic gentleness. See, there CharmingPixie and I disagree. :D I prefer diplomatic gentleness. IMHO, I think it takes more work, more self-control, and more maturity to disagree gently and politely than it does to yell and argue and get emotional. *wink*

jmd	26 Dec 2004
I suspect that part of the un-easiness some have with 'Guidelines to Feedback' is the way it is perceived to both be prescriptive (even if only by implication) and somewhat artificial and formulaïc, rather than the more spontaneously natural and idiosyncretic style each of us has, that also highlights our individual strengths and weaknesses - of course there remains stated and implied 'rules', such as the language used (standard English) and a general respect and care for other people as one posts. A formulaïc approach, or following some guidelines, is certainly a preferred option for some. Personally, when someone in my wider work environment begins using these forms, I respond by asking 'cut the crap and the learned speaking formula... what is it you want to say!?' - I find forms such as classical psychological and management formulæ tends to take away from the person speaking from the depth of their being. Some, of course, find it both liberating and allows them to focus on precisely what they would like to say without the attendant ad hominem comments intruding. Personally, I prefer no stated guidelines other than what a person may wish to request as part of an offered reading...

Moongold	27 Dec 2004
These ideas (Guidelines) are commonly used both outside and inside Aeclectic. They are not new. They were presented in list form for which I don't apologise at all. Easy to remember and easy to organize. Who does not use lists? Thanks for all the contributions. Most of the people who responded are probably fairly good at giving and receiving feedback. And rules? WHO mentioned them? It has been an interesting discussion. One cannot influence with any certainty how people receive information. Where some see light, others see shadows. Where some see suggestions, others see prescriptions. It is all a matter of perspective and balance. From this list of suggestions, as with anything, you can take what you want and leave the rest behind. I'm excusing myself from the thread now - Taking a few days off in fact. Have a happy new year everyone :)

Fudugazi	27 Dec 2004
WhiteRaven wrote: I'm addressing the guidelines that MoonGold has posted and how I feel they are not equal and how I am personally not comfortable with #7 for the "Reader". This erases all responsibility for the Reader. This is not helping the reader when the feedback is negative. How can one look at that and say that it's a healthy learning process to walk away and ignore negative feedback? This is my question here...the imbalance within the Guidelines is quite obvious. At a glance they look great. But if you really start thinking about the content of some of the clauses...you get this huge question mark above your head...at least I do. Then don't use them. I think they will be useful for many people, but they are free guidelines. ¨ I once read for a friend about her boyfriend. She asked me where it was going, she was hoping to get married. I saw another woman there. As gently as I could I tried to let her know. She was angry. She told me I was wrong and my reading was off. I did not accept her feedback, but I held my tongue, because I saw she was upset. OK. But a month later her left her for another woman. That's what "you don't have to accept the feedback" means, IMO. We remain strong in our intuition and reading if we feel it is real, if there are both intuitive and logical reasons to stick to it. But we don't have to quarrel about it. If the querent is upset by the reading, then, as Moongold says, the best is to back off gently and let the reading rest. And if it turns out wrong, then the reader too will learn something. And I repeat what I said in a last post, - all that can be done in humility. Neither reader nor querent nor other participants are superheroes and magicians. Very few people have 100% Sight.

WhiteRaven	27 Dec 2004
Lurea_aure wrote: See, there CharmingPixie and I disagree. :D I prefer diplomatic gentleness. IMHO, I think it takes more work, more self-control, and more maturity to disagree gently and politely than it does to yell and argue and get emotional. *wink* I certainly wish everyone had that attitude then. Not just the Querant. What about the Reader that sits there and argues and comes back at you aggressively. What about the Reader that doesn't think about what they are presenting to the Querant. There are a lot of people within this forum that have been hurt profoundly in the past because of this. Because the Reader was way off track. I'm not just talking about myself either...What about the Reader that doesn't give a damn, only to stand there and argue without "listening". What about the Reader that blames the Querant for their emotional state instead of taking a good look at themselves first? Why does so much responsibility lie upon the Querants shoulders and the Reader can get away with bloody murder? What if the Querant was diplomatic and gentle with the feedback and the Reader comes back even more agressive? Sometimes, the areas that the Reader is being agressive about is quite touchy and can really do damage. and I have to agree with JMD, "'cut the crap and the learned speaking formula... what is it you want to say!?' " This is powerful in itself. How is one to learn if you don't "cut through"....but then you have people that are afraid to do this for numerous reasons. One being because they are afraid of the reaction of the Reader. Most people in this thread are posting and defending the "Reader". Well, most of you are also Querants many times as well and I really hope that you don't run into a situation where you become the victim...just because the Reader is too stubborn to admit that they are wrong. Most of you in this thread and those that are just watching are more concerned about a Querant that denys the interp...and are ignoring the issue of the Reader denying the feedback...and again...I have to ask myself "why" ? Most of the people in this thread have not like what I've posted. My posts would be considered "bad feedback" about a set of guidelines that have been posted. You can come back as diplomatic all you wish...but the ones that have good perception and that are honest with themselves will see through the crap...and see the reality of it instead. And I will say this once again to make it as clear as I can. I am not perfect...I have argued with a Querant about bad feedback in regards to an interp that I, myself, have done. However, I never got "aggressive" and down right stubborn about it... And...if you want to have guidelines on how to give feedback with diplomacy as you wish to call it...then the Reader should have the same guidelines as well. Responsibility would be better if it was equal and not more to one side. again...most of the people that posted in this thread are more worried about "proper" feedback or rather the "proper" way to give feedback as opposed to the reaction of the said feedback, whether it was given "gently" or was direct with no crap. So you can all sit there and worry about the poor Reader....and I'll sit here and worry about both Reader and Querant. I recall, having to sit in this forum and watch someone I hold dearly, get ripped to shreds by a reader not very long ago...and this reader was way off and most of the people that know the Querant knew this to be true. (that the reader was "wrong".) Nobody has any clue what that did to the Querant....I do.....and that's part of the reason I'm in this thread and posted the other thread as well.

WhiteRaven	27 Dec 2004
WalesWoman wrote: To jump in here or not???? There is a thing called free will...the querant will "see" what they want to see no matter if they agree with the reader or not. The reader can only relate what they interpret from the cards based on their knowledge and intuition, we are only human and are dealing with limited knowledge of the querant in most cases. It really helps to know the person and thier situation, so if I'm told I'm wrong...even tho I may feel they are blinding themselves to the possiblility, so be it. All you can do is say what you truly believe and let go. [snip] Yes Waleswoman, everyone has "free will". The Querant can take an interp for what it's worth and like I've said before, walk away shaking their head and vowing never to return...but when it goes further and hits profoundly...this is where my concerns lie. When the Reader will come back at you after giving feedback...only to put pressure upon a freshly opened wound....this is where my concerns lie...and sometimes it's just being who we are that does not allow us to walk away freely without any emotional consequence. I've seen some members just want to leave and never come back....I being one of them quite recently...but I'm not the only one that has felt like this. You say that the Reader can only relate to what they interp and the knowledge that they know of...but what if they are presented with something different. Does that give the Reader the right to come back at the Querant with their claws out? I don't think so...at least that's the way I feel about it. I've stated this above in another post...but I will state it again. Everyone seems to be so worried about the "Reader" and the "diplomacy" that a Querant must carry and use when giving feedback. But what about the Querant in all of this. Do we all forget that we are also Querants? Do we not receive readings from other people as well as give them? It's so easy for a Reader to brush off negative feedback by putting the blame on the Querant..."oh she/he is in denial.....oh she's just angry right now and can't see clearly....oh she's already upset and maybe I should have kept it to myself instead of taking the chance of saying it to him/her" Diplomacy....it can cause a lot of grief too...what if a Reader sees something horrible that is directed to the Querant and diplomatically either ignores it and opts not to say anything and/or "smooths it over" or "candy coats" what they really see...and two days later that Querant is in the hospital on life support and in a coma. How does diplomacy serve the Querant in this sense. What about the Querant telling the Reader they are "right on" when they aren't...and the Reader carries on upon their path and relies on the income that readings give them but all of a sudden this reader is getting less and less Querants for some odd reason that the Reader can not understand....only because no one has had the guts to tell this REader that they are off in many situations.... These are things that need to be addressed because not only can a REader lash out and hurt a Querant profoundly. But the Querant, by not being honest and not cutting through the crap can also harm the Reader. I have to agree with CharmingPixie when she wrote "If I cannot be honest, then there is no point in me even speaking. " Because it's not helping anyone if you're not. Quote: I know I've been way off before on readings, maybe...no one has come back and told me they got pregnant yet...so I just ask if it's possible anymore, if for some reason it sure seems like it's the case. All you can do sometimes is suggest there is a possibility and allow the querant to come to their own conclusions. Not everyone thinks like this...you are saying that you'll just walk away with whatever feedback is provided without lashing out at the Querant if they disagree...and yes..there are ways to "disagree"...but when the Reader is provided with concrete proof with many examples...and they still argue their point..then we have a problem. Quote: We are to provide guidance, not enforce it via will power. Providing guidance to the Querant....but what about providing quidance to the Reader as well....

WhiteRaven	27 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: Then don't use them. I think they will be useful for many people, but they are free guidelines. ¨ I once read for a friend about her boyfriend. She asked me where it was going, hse was hoping to get married. I saw another woman there. As gently as I could I tried to let her know. She was angry. She told me I was wrong and my reading was off. I did not accept her feedback, but I held my tongue, because I saw she was upset. OK. But a month later her left her for another woman. That's what "you don't have to accept the feedback" means, IMO. We remain strong in our intuition and reading if we feel it is real, if there are both intuitive and logical reasons to stick to it. But we don't have to quarrel about it. If the querent is upset by the reading, then, as Moongold says, the best is to back off gently and let the reading rest. And if it turns out wrong , then the reader too will learn something. And I repeat what I said in a last post, - all that can be done in humility. Neither reader nor querent nor other participants are superheroes and magicians. Very few people have 100% Sight. You're discussing feedback in regards to "predictions"...and I have to agree that it's literally impossible to give feedback for something that hasn't even happened yet. I've said this in my reply to Diana earlier. I'm addressing the part of the reading that tells us what we already know..and if the reader is telling us something that is wrong about what we "already" know. This is where I'm directing my attention right now. If a reader is telling you something that you know is wrong...and you tell them they are wrong...even if you are gentle and diplomatic about it, and they come back with claws out ready to pounce and verbally become more aggressive towards you just because you are stating "facts" that the Reader is "wrong" about...this is where my concerns lie within this thread. If a reader will sit there and describe to you what you are "suppose to be like" and you know in your heart and soul that you are not like that...are you to sit there and take it? Just because? What if that Reader has really emotionally wounded you...are you going to sit there and take it just because? Are you not going to tell this person that you feel they are wrong? I would...but then I would be very apprehensive of the come back...and this is quite an issue. So, I'm sitting here defending the Querant for now...worried about what they can receive as a reading and what kind of come back they can get from giving honest feedback. This is why I'm arguing in this thread.

Ruby7	27 Dec 2004
WhiteRaven wrote: Most people in this thread are posting and defending the "Reader". Well, most of you are also Querants many times as well and I really hope that you don't run into a situation where you become the victim...just because the Reader is too stubborn to admit that they are wrong. Most of you in this thread and those that are just watching are more concerned about a Querant that denys the interp...and are ignoring the issue of the Reader denying the feedback...and again...I have to ask myself "why" ? . I only posted and defended the "Reader" because you were so focused on the Querant's point of view I felt that the other side had to be mentioned. That said---I do also see this from the other side (Querant's) and that is why i think the focus should be on an open dialogue between the two. Both parties should be willing to listen and truly think about what the other is saying and accept if they could possibly be wrong. Of course the Reader should accept they are wrong, especially if it is a simple fact (not something in the future). Pride should not be a factor here and we should all work on that--nobody likes to be wrong but we have to accept when we are. I know I have been wrong a few times. I don't think there is as much of an argument here as you think Whiteraven, but I will consider what you are saying and maybe I am missing something :)--maybe I'm wrong :) All the best Ruby7

Lurea	27 Dec 2004
WhiteRaven wrote: What about the Reader that doesn't think about what they are presenting to the Querant. There are a lot of people within this forum that have been hurt profoundly in the past because of this. Because the Reader was way off track. I'm not just talking about myself either...What about the Reader that doesn't give a damn, only to stand there and argue without "listening". What about the Reader that blames the Querant for their emotional state instead of taking a good look at themselves first? Why does so much responsibility lie upon the Querants shoulders and the Reader can get away with bloody murder? What if the Querant was diplomatic and gentle with the feedback and the Reader comes back even more agressive? Sometimes, the areas that the Reader is being agressive about is quite touchy and can really do damage. That's a good point, but what can you do? We hope that by getting practice in this forum that we can learn to be good readers and be right. That with exposure to others and practice, we can word our readings appropriately-not so harsh that it hurts the Querent, but not so vague that it's useless. I belong to a writing criticism e-list, and they have guidelines on giving and receiving constructive criticism. The basics go like this: Quote: Receive Criticism Gracefully Before you open any [reading] take out your tough skin suit and slip it on. I know our [work/question/life] is our baby, but you’ve asked for the opinions of others, so you’re getting them, good and bad. It’s not going to be any easier when it’s from a [paying querent or anyone else] , so you might as well learn to shrug off what you don’t like or agree with now. It’ll save you some time later and you’ll be much happier in the long run. We all have different likes and dislikes, and since a [reading] is only an opinion, you don’t have to agree with it. Look through the whole [reading] and take what you find helpful, and don’t worry over the rest. Sometimes you can pick out something useful even from the worst critique. If you don’t agree with something, before you just delete, save the message and look at it later, after you have time to get over the sting. You might find that the [reading] was at least a little right. Also, if more than one person points out the same thing, even if you don’t agree, you might owe it to yourself, and your work, to at least take another look at it. In the end, the wonderful thing is, it’s your call, so you get to change what you want and toss what you don’t agree with. I think that second paragraph applies equally to readings and feedback. The important thing to note here is that this is a problem for EVERYONE in the world! Lit groups, teachers, doctors, social workers--everyone has problems with constructive criticism. We're not going to figure out a way to please/protect/satisfy everyone. This is a learning forum and there are bound to be bumps and set-backs, and occasional insensitive things said. Just put your tough suit on, and don't go back to a reader or a querent who has treated you badly.

Fudugazi	27 Dec 2004
WhiteRaven wrote: most of the people that posted in this thread are more worried about "proper" feedback or rather the "proper" way to give feedback as opposed to the reaction of the said feedback, whether it was given "gently" or was direct with no crap. So you can all sit there and worry about the poor Reader....and I'll sit here and worry about both Reader and Querant. Do you think it is impossible to be both direct and gentle? Is the only way to get someone's attention a punch in the nose? Reader or querent both deserve gentleness and honesty. As do other participants. These are not incompatible. WhiteRaven wrote: I recall, having to sit in this forum and watch someone I hold dearly, get ripped to shreds by a reader not very long ago...and this reader was way off and most of the people that know the Querant knew this to be true. (that the reader was "wrong".) Nobody has any clue what that did to the Querant....I do.....and that's part of the reason I'm in this thread and posted the other thread as well. That is terrible, and I feel for the person, and for you. But reading through this spread, I don't think anyone is defending an irresponsible and unkind reader. That's the point of the guidelines Moongold suggested.

WhiteRaven	27 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: Is the only way to get someone's attention a punch in the nose? Did I once even come close in implying such a thing? If anything, this is what I'm debating about in the first place. The aggressiveness of a Reader that receives bad feedback...I think I've stated very clearly what my concerns are within this thread and it has nothing to do with having to "punch" people in the nose with honesty! Quote: That is terrible, and I feel for the person, and for you. But reading through this spread, I don't think anyone is defending an irresponsible and unkind reader. That's the point of the guidelines Moongold suggested. Yes, it was terrible for this person. She is got to be the most kindest, gentlest, loving person that I've come across online and this community would back me any time if they knew who I was referring to. I just hope that this doesn't happen to you one day. Trust me...it's not a very nice feeling and you sit there with your mouth wide open in awe at what you're reading...then it starts to sink in...and that's not a very nice feeling. I will stand my ground here about these guidelines and say that they are not equally dispersed between Querant and Reader...but what's the point of debating anymore...I have formed my own opinions within this thread and I will just carry on as I have been...the only thing different is now...when I get feedback from somebody...I'm going to question if it's honest or not...whether it's good or bad feedback.....quite a pity I would say.

WalesWoman	27 Dec 2004
Quote: by White Raven You're discussing feedback in regards to "predictions"...and I have to agree that it's literally impossible to give feedback for something that hasn't even happened yet. I've said this in my reply to Diana earlier. I'm addressing the part of the reading that tells us what we already know..and if the reader is telling us something that is wrong about what we "already" know. This is where I'm directing my attention right now. If a reader is telling you something that you know is wrong...and you tell them they are wrong...even if you are gentle and diplomatic about it, and they come back with claws out ready to pounce and verbally become more aggressive towards you just because you are stating "facts" that the Reader is "wrong" about...this is where my concerns lie within this thread. If a reader will sit there and describe to you what you are "suppose to be like" and you know in your heart and soul that you are not like that...are you to sit there and take it? Just because? What if that Reader has really emotionally wounded you...are you going to sit there and take it just because? Are you not going to tell this person that you feel they are wrong? I would...but then I would be very apprehensive of the come back...and this is quite an issue. So, I'm sitting here defending the Querant for now...worried about what they can receive as a reading and what kind of come back they can get from giving honest feedback. This is why I'm arguing in this thread. I'm not posting to argue anything, just offering a different viewpoint. My thoughts are if someone is totally adamant to the point of not being able to take into consideration another's viewpoint or acknowledge "facts", they are probably not all that sure of themselves and identify too much with what they are doing...to the point that the mere suggestion that they might be wrong sends them off in a self defensive tizzy. Sometimes it's just best to bite your tongue rather than sink to their level...ok? Defensiveness such as you describe means this person has a very low level of confidence and will do about anything to protect it, in order to sustain their self view and ego. So, it would be very hard to take any thing this person says seriously...just my opinion. Note: (When I say You, I'm talking about the generalized, universal you, including myself in it too, YOU!) For myself, I get a new knowledge from the cards when someone sees the meaning in a different way than what I did. There are so many ways to interpret them depending on the surrounding cards and each individual's situation. So I think who ever you had this experience with was wrong to do this, but sometimes when you can step back and not get emotionally wound up in denial, that something comes through and allows you to see things differently. Probably not in this particular case with this particular reader. So they aren't 100%, but there could be valid points to take into consideration in the long view. They might be seeing something that's been "hidden" or you, me, we aren't aware of. Instead of "I'm right, you are wrong", just try, "You have your opinion, I have mine and we'll agree to disagree", if they can't do that...excuse yourself and leave. Like I said, there's no point in arguing with someone sometimes...they don't have to walk in your shoes and thankfully you don't have to walk in theirs. If the reader is wrong and you know it and they won't consider another avenue or way of looking at the possibilities...it's their problem, not yours. If they are like that with everyone, they will eventually figure it out or wonder why no one ever comes back.

WhiteRaven	27 Dec 2004
Lurea_aure wrote: That's a good point, but what can you do? We hope that by getting practice in this forum that we can learn to be good readers and be right. That with exposure to others and practice, we can word our readings appropriately-not so harsh that it hurts the Querent, but not so vague that it's useless. Not only not to hurt the Querent with a reading or what it says...but when a reader comes back after feedback, and that feedback is negative. The Reader has to remember that the Querant, in many cases, does know what they are talking about. I'm very confused with all of this. ...and I'm not only directing this at you Lurea_aure....I'm directing this at everyone that seems to be having a problem with the concept I'm trying to present here. I am not talking about how one gives feedback. I am talking about the reaction of a Reader that gets negative feedback. I am talking about the responsibility of the actions of the Reader whom has received negative feedback. I am talking about a Reader that will tear someone apart in a reading. and finally... I am talking about people sugar-coating the facts. BTW...your set of guidlines seems a tad more balanced IMHO. sigh....like I said in my response above....I've learnt quite a bit in this thread...now I don't even know who to trust when it comes to feedback anymore...and that's pretty darn sad. and that's all she wrote.............:(

Moongold	27 Dec 2004
WhiteRaven wrote: I will stand my ground here about these guidelines and say that they are not equally dispersed between Querant and Reader...but what's the point of debating anymore...I have formed my own opinions within this thread and I will just carry on as I have been...the only thing different is now...when I get feedback from somebody...I'm going to question if it's honest or not...whether it's good or bad feedback.....quite a pity I would say. WhiteRaven, you have made your point. The list, in your view, is unbalanced. Again, my only response is to say that the list is simply a list of suggestions. People can take what they want from it and leave the rest behind. They can leave it all behind if they want to. It was never a prescription or a formula. No-one is perfect in anything they do - Readers or Querents or Posters. Maybe the best we can do is understand that and give each other an inch or two. What is the purpose this forum , after all if not to grow, change and be happy in our exploration of the Tarot?

Fudugazi	27 Dec 2004
WhiteRaven wrote: sigh....like I said in my response above....I've learnt quite a bit in this thread...now I don't even know who to trust when it comes to feedback anymore...and that's pretty darn sad. Very sad, if the simple fact of being disagreed with in a thread about feedback means you cannot trust feedback. I think everyone, including you, has been honest in this thread, though we have not all agreed. That's what discussion is all about. However, I don't think anyone defends or likes or in any way condones irresponsible readers. I can't see how you could have read that in this thread, or even in the guidelines posted, no matter how unbalanced you might have thought them. At the risk of repeating Moongold, myself and half a dozen others, suggested guidelines are not laws. We are not dealing with VIII -Justice here, but hopefully with XIIII-Temperance :) Respect for all, querent, reader, and all participants, even in disagreement, is all that is really needed.

jmd	27 Dec 2004
...as a matter of interest, there are already guidelines in existence within the Forum, and these are located under the FAQ rubric at the top of the page: [center]Respect Our Members:[/center] Quote: We are a Tarot-focused discussion forum for people of varying ages, nationalities, cultures, spiritualities and Tarot beliefs. Please write in clear English, remember your Netiquette, and read over your messages before posting in order to avoid possible misunderstandings. Play nice while you're here. We ask that you refrain from discussing political topics: having a worldwide membership, we also have a diverse range of political opinion. No flaming, baiting, insults, or harassment of other members on the forum or via private message. Lack of respect for other members will result in post removal and/or suspension of member privileges. #10 of the opening post gives advice on giving feedback thus: 'Try to avoid advice unless sought. Most people can work out their own best solutions or responses and it is important that they feel they have the space and time to do that.' I presume this would apply to advice on giving advice as well... Personally, I consider that the balance that Solandia has been able to manage between setting a whole gambit or rules, advice, suggestions and the like that may arise in Forums to be quite sensibly and moderately achieved. To have further suggestions or advice as to how to give feedback would only add to the rules that are best left, in my personal opinion, to the discretion, maturity, care and idiosyncracies of the common sense of the posters. With or without additional rules and regulations, some will post in ways more insensitive, and some in wasy highly sensitive, to the situation of the other person - whether reader or readee.... Would but we all were both highly sensitive and accurate!

WhiteRaven	27 Dec 2004
jmd wrote: ...as a matter of interest, there are already guidelines in existence within the Forum, and these are located under the FAQ rubric at the top of the page: [center] Respect Our Members: [/center] #10 of the opening post gives advice on giving feedback thus: 'Try to avoid advice unless sought. Most people can work out their own best solutions or responses and it is important that they feel they have the space and time to do that.' I presume this would apply to advice on giving advice as well... Personally, I consider that the balance that Solandia has been able to manage between setting a whole gambit or rules, advice, suggestions and the like that may arise in Forums to be quite sensibly and moderately achieved. To have further suggestions or advice as to how to give feedback would only add to the rules that are best left, in my personal opinion, to the discretion, maturity, care and idiosyncracies of the common sense of the posters. With or without additional rules and regulations, some will post in ways more insensitive, and some in wasy highly sensitive, to the situation of the other person - whether reader or readee.... Would but we all were both highly sensitive and accurate! And this is balanced! Thank you JMD for posting the guidelines that are already in place within this forum. At least with these guidelines...the responsibility rests with one's self and not more to the left than to the right. I just wish we all played with the same game plan...

Moongold	27 Dec 2004
JMD wrote: To have further suggestions or advice as to how to give feedback would only add to the rules that are best left, in my personal opinion, to the discretion, maturity, care and idiosyncracies of the common sense of the posters. With or without additional rules and regulations, some will post in ways more insensitive, and some in wasy highly sensitive, to the situation of the other person - whether reader or readee.... Would but we all were both highly sensitive and accurate! Greetings JMD ~ I think you may realise that there was never any intention to add more rules than already exist. I know that quite often you skim read threads but I can't see how you would have missed that. In relation to this thread, I think there has been an interesting discussion about a whole range of things. The list of suggestions I provided perhaps take things a little further than Solandia's guidelines. Nothing lost by that; more likely plenty gained. Discussions like this occur across the Forum every day. There would be something the matter with ideas that pleased everyone or met everyone's needs or wishes. I simply repeat: Aeclectic members can take from these suggestions or ideas as much as they want, or nothing at all. There has never be any suggestion from me of compulsion or the need to modify what already exists :). Instead a few new seeds have been thrown into the garden. For some they might provide material that will enhance their current work; for others they may have provided new understanding. For yet others they will provide nothing at all, which is perfectly all right.

Grizabella	27 Dec 2004
I think those guidelines were perfectly fine, Moongold, and I took them as they were intended. I don't really understand how they were taken to be anything to dispute. You've done a great job and thank you for taking the time to do it.

jmd	27 Dec 2004
Skim-reading a post or two, or an occasional thread, does not, I would have thought, imply that I tend to 'quite often' skim read threads in which I also post - rather the contrary is the case for those threads in which I add my own reflections and comments. It is, of course, literally correct that the many threads I do not post in are either skim-read or not read at all at that time. Occasionally, the 'No New Posts' icon is on, even though new posts may even be there... as I recently discovered for a whole thread initiated by Fulgour in the Marseille section of the Forums. I would normally simply avoid such a comment about 'knowing that I often skim read threads', but in this instance take the time as it is a very thread on giving feedback, and thought I would. In the opening post by Moongold, and before the listings, it is stated that 'it might be useful to look at some guidelines' - and it is precisely this, together with a variety of comments throughout this thread, that have lead me to read as quite the opposite to 'there was never any intention to add more rules than already exist'. 'Looking at some guidelines' was taken by myself (obviously incorrectly) to suggest that the seeds sown were to later be reaped as incorporated guidelines or general rules for participation. A situation I suppose I would prefer to mitigate against. Discussions about various ways to give feedback for or on readings (or even discussions as to the various ways one may read), what some prefer and others find distasteful (often the same thing experienced differently by different people, by the way), and how some prefer directed feedback, others feedback from numerous people, others from only the person for whom the reading was intended (yet posting in a public Forum for the benefit of all), others for the gift to be accepted with a simple 'thankyou', others for feedback to incorporate more generalities than specifics... all these form part of our diverse community - or so I would have thought. Of course, the kind of feedback that Moongold opens with is also useful for those who would prefer that type - and as such reflects one amongst other ways to give feedback. Others may of course not like that style or approach at all - whether as givers or as receivers - and that too becomes evident within this very thread.

Moongold	27 Dec 2004
jmd wrote: Skim-reading a post or two, or an occasional thread, does not, I would have thought, imply that I tend to 'quite often' skim read threads in which I also post - rather the contrary is the case for those threads in which I add my own reflections and comments. It is, of course, literally correct that the many threads I do not post in are either skim-read or not read at all at that time. Occasionally, the 'No New Posts' icon is on, even though new posts may even be there... as I recently discovered for a whole thread initiated by Fulgour in the Marseille section of the Forums. I would normally simply avoid such a comment about 'knowing that I often skim read threads', but in this instance take the time as it is a very thread on giving feedback, and thought I would. In the opening post by Moongold, and before the listings, it is stated that 'it might be useful to look at some guidelines' - and it is precisely this, together with a variety of comments throughout this thread, that have lead me to read as quite the opposite to 'there was never any intention to add more rules than already exist'. 'Looking at some guidelines' was taken by myself (obviously incorrectly) to suggest that the seeds sown were to later be reaped as incorporated guidelines or general rules for participation. A situation I suppose I would prefer to mitigate against. Discussions about various ways to give feedback for or on readings (or even discussions as to the various ways one may read), what some prefer and others find distasteful (often the same thing experienced differently by different people, by the way), and how some prefer directed feedback, others feedback from numerous people, others from only the person for whom the reading was intended (yet posting in a public Forum for the benefit of all), others for the gift to be accepted with a simple 'thankyou', others for feedback to incorporate more generalities than specifics... all these form part of our diverse community - or so I would have thought. Of course, the kind of feedback that Moongold opens with is also useful for those who would prefer that type - and as such reflects one amongst other ways to give feedback. Others may of course not like that style or approach at all - whether as givers or as receivers - and that too becomes evident within this very thread. Greetings JMD ~ I have more than once seen threads where you contribute having acknowledged that you haven’t read all the posts or that you have skim read them. I am prepared to go back and find examples if necessary but would prefer to spend my Saturday afternoon doing something else. Having said that, I acknowledge a sense of frustration because of the obvious communication difficulties. I do not know why the statements I have already made about the non-prescriptiveness of the suggested guidelines cannot be taken at face value. My reference to your skim reading of thread is born of that frustration. I think you have made some assumptions about my intentions despite my explicit statements. Again, the statements have been made a number of times in the thread and I feel some despair that you as a Moderator and respected contributor to these forums have continuously made these assumptions. You do not seem to have heard what I have explicitly said. Furthermore, Solandia’s guidelines are broad guidelines which refer to overall behaviour in the Forums, not specifically to giving feedback. Sure, some would see them as applying to both. I would have no argument with that point of view. The list I tabled is a little more specific. Given all the recent discussion about feedback in the Forums it seemed a perfectly reasonable thing to do. I still think so. And some have found it helpful. You have also made assumptions about my metaphor of seeds being sown. By this metaphor I mean ideas about giving feedback, nothing else. I should not need to say again that there was no grand intention or hidden agenda to have these suggestions formalized into Forum rules. I do not have a preferred approach to feedback, as seemingly implied in your last paragraph. Those who have received feedback from me or who have seen my comments to people in Your Readings or the Reading Exchange would know that. I personally find quite hurtful your own comments implying that because some one puts things in the form of a list that person therefore has a formulaic approach or is not quite capable of being spontaneous or authentically themselves. I also believe that sometimes a simple thank you is quite enough and many times have accepted that or given it myself I think this discussion has now gone far enough, and has at times throughout the thread become quite personal. This is often not helpful and I hope it finishes here.

jmd	27 Dec 2004
Moongold - when I post, I post as a member, not as a moderator, unless specifically stated as such. As such, my comments herein are in no way to be taken as moderating comments, simply and no more than ones I would similarly make were I to not have the sub-title '[font=courier] moderator [/font]'. With regards to presuming that I may have misunderstood the sowing metaphor, what rather happened is that I used the same biblical metaphor and applied it in a different way - metaphors may indeed often give impressions and lead in different directions depending on how they are applied. As I mentioned, I would like to mitigate against any suggestions becoming general rule - this without any presupposition that resultant rules would have been the intent of the sowing. There is no doubt that some have indeed enjoyed the benefit of having what are in other places 'rules of discourse when giving 'feedback'' made available in this thread - this with regards to both the ones originally posted and the ones posted later. Thinking carefully about these, their possible benefits and their possible taking away from diversity, is well worth discussing. For myself, I have clearly read that from the beginning there was also a claim that such suggestions were for the instruction and benefit of all, rather than an intended regulation that these be applied. My critique is that there is in fact a disparity between the intent and the consequent result if adopted as actual guideline. This is not in any way to be taken as a personal comment, but one focussed solely on the suggestion that there even be specific guidelines. As mentioned by Moongold above, 'Solandia’s guidelines are broad guidelines which refer to overall behaviour in the Forums, not specifically to giving feedback [...] The list I tabled is a little more specific'. The specificity, if adopted, becomes in effect more rules. This has nothing to do with whether some have found the list, or the discussion, useful - and I have no doubt that some have found it useful, and likewise have no doubt that others have found it alarming (for reasons that have likewise been made or suggested within the thread). The formulaïc approach I mentioned earlier, perhaps misunderstood, was not in any manner the listing of suggestions, but the very manner in which a feedback follows a specified format or formulæ (whether or not in list form is immaterial). Giving and receiving feedback on Aeclectic has, at this stage at any rate, the same 'rules' as are listed within the quote I earlier make.... though of course it becomes far more instructive to discuss how and what each may find useful in receiving and giving feedback - as has already occured within this thread and in others.

Moongold	28 Dec 2004
Deleted. I tried to edit the post but didn't succeed. My edit appeared as a new thread, which appears below JMD's post.

jmd	28 Dec 2004
Thankyou... I shall leave our words to each speak for themselves, with no ill feelings on my part.

Moongold	28 Dec 2004
I have edited this post but have kept a copy of the original. My initial response was quite detailed because JMD made various assumptions which were not justified by anything I said or intended. He has not taken responsibility for those in my view but a lengthy post and justification on my part will not make that more likely. The end of this difficult thread has certainly worn me out. And ultimately the matter is not important enough for that or for the encouragement of a conflict not desired or considered of value. Those interested can go back to read my comments in the thread and judge for themselves - if they really want to. Moongold

Diana	28 Dec 2004
You know, I think the word "feedback" is a HORRIBLE word. It sounds like some printer spouting out pages and pages of Excel spread-sheets. I have decided I will never again ask people for "feedback". (This is my New Year's Resolution). I haven't yet picked a word to replace it, but it will be something like "comments" or "remarks". I think this is a most interesting thread. I have enjoyed reading it and will continue enjoying reading it if it continues. It reveals much about the dynamics on an internet board and the various personalities that play on an internet board.

Fudugazi	28 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: I have decided I will never again ask people for "feedback". (This is my New Year's Resolution). I haven't yet picked a word to replace it, but it will be something like "comments" or "remarks". I think this is a most interesting thread. I have enjoyed reading it and will continue enjoying reading it if it continues. It reveals much about the dynamics on an internet board and the various personalities that play on an internet board. Or thoughts. Or better still, the active mode: what do you think of my reading? what do I think of your commentary? How do we discuss this in a civilised fashion without breaking too many hearts? I'm amazed at the amount of angst this thread has created, and at the lack of detachment in discussing what should be a detached subject (since we are talking about how to give commentary on readings, not a commentary itself). I never realised there were so many chips sitting on so many shoulders, and so much burn-out. I agree with Moongold on this: lists of suggestions are not inhibiting to spontaneity unless one wants to be spontaneously offensive - which is against forum rules ;)

WhiteRaven	28 Dec 2004
Well, I must admit, this thread has cut like a very sharp blade in many areas and I'm sure it will hover over some for quite some time. I was not trying to step on anyone's toes or be the defiant child when I posted my grievances...I was simply stating that I found that there was not only a need for the Querant to take responsibility of their fashion of giving feedback, but also for the Reader to do the same in a equal way. I sat here and defended the Querant for the most part because most of the posts were not addressing the responsibilities of the Reader...only the Querant. Yes, I did use some true and valid examples within the thread, only to try and shed some light as to what I was trying to say. Feelings have been hurt on many sides of this thread. I doubt if there will be any resolutions and this is quite sad because all it is really is debating some issues that are quite real within the forum. Whether there is tone, body language, facial expression or whatever we have in real life discussions that lack within the world of the online forums/message boards/chatroom/email, much was felt and quite clear within this particular thread. Bottom line here is no matter what kind of guidelines are established or could be added or whatever, the responsibility lies with the person that is typing what they see in front of them. I think the best guideline or suggestion would be to remember to put yourself in the other person's shoes before typing something. Take the time to ask yourself how YOU would feel if what you are typing would be directed to YOU instead of someone else. Would you feel nailed to the wall, degraded, emotionally ripped apart, called a liar, etc...I think you all know what I mean... As they say in the bible..."do unto others as you would like done to you".... and for those that are of Pagan belief.... "What goes around comes around three-fold".... Responsibility of actions, thoughts, words belongs to ourselves and not to someone else.

RedMaple	28 Dec 2004
WhiteRaven wrote: Whatever the reason for one to want feedback...it should be taken as is and not argued upon. If one doesn't want to receive both negative and positive then specify before hand. AGain...lay out the rules and specify that feedback is welcomed, just as long as it's positive feedback. No negative feedback is accepted. The guidelines that you have drawn up makes it quite easy for any reader to accept what they want and ignore the rest...and again I will state..what's the use of feedback if you're not going to take what is really given to you as such. You have not addressed my uncomfortableness (if that's a word) with clause # 7 in the "Reader's" set of guidelines in regards to accepting feedback because you're saying they don't have to accept it at all. WhiteRaven, Moongold was quite clear in stating that she is talking about any response, to a reading, an idea, a debate, on any thread, not just feedback to a reading, yet you are adamant in your interpretation of her "rules" as being solely about feedback to readings. You are surely not suggesting that every time someone disagrees with you, that you have to give in to their criticism and change your position. Surely not, knowing your intensity and integrity about issues. :) I think Moongold is trying to set up some guidelines for civil conduct on the web, which can be difficult, since we can't see each other face-to-face, and the emoticons are primitive by comparison. Notice, though, how many times we use the smiley to soften what we are saying so it won't be misunderstood. The great diversity of backgrounds also makes it difficult to always be polite, or to be aware that people are at different stages of growth and experience in their lives. How do we know if someone is 16 or 87? Or what their cultural background, health, gender, sexual orientation, etc is? Unless we ask, or they reveal? I have expressed some very strong opinions here on AT, and not everyone agrees with all of them. I may or may not agree with arguments or criticisms of any response I give. That's all Moongold is saying in #7, as far as I can see. That doesn't make me uncomfortable at all. edited to add: I hadn't read the last page of posts before adding these thoughts. I feel sad that there has been so much ill-feeling around this.

Fudugazi	28 Dec 2004
Red Maple: Amen to that! You are a wise 16-87 year old woman-man ;)

Moongold	28 Dec 2004
I am up very early with the consequences of a broken finger knocked accidentally. In some ironic way this thread does illustrate the communication problems it was established to assist in the first place. As the initiator of the thread I would like to ask people to let it go now. I know some may see this request as censorship but I don't intend that. I was hoping the suggested guidelines would help avoid conflict but we end up having conflict about them LOL. With the recent terrible events in Asia I feel quite uncomfortable having conflict about something which is relatively unimportant now. Thank you for your consideration ~ Moongold

Imagemaker	28 Dec 2004
Quote: I was hoping the suggested guidelines would help avoid conflict but we end up having conflict about them LOL. With the recent terrible events in Asia I feel quite uncomfortable having conflict about something which is relatively unimportant I'm with you here. Who can focus on a "tempest in a teapot" over minutae when the real tempest in the Asian oceanic teapot is boiling over. Let's sift the important out of the urgent and move forward. Hope your broken finger feels better soon, Moongold.

Diana	28 Dec 2004
Moongold: You have on a number of occasions asked people to stop talking about an on-going discussions. But I swear, there are only two ways a thread will die on an internet forum. One is if a moderator closes it; and the other is when it is READY to die. All the wishing in the world will never make something die (whatever wannabe magic(k)ians may think). In a very old newsletter I get from the "Course in Miracles" guys, which I found today when I was sorting out some old papers, my eyes lit on a paragraph where they speak of communication, and where they specifically talk about all these different "formal" methods of communication. After saying that these kind of methods can be useful, they go on to say: "Yet almost always there is an emphasis on respecting not only another's feelings, but meeting one's own needs. Such approaches, while efficacious perhaps in the short term, run the risk of long-term compromise, in which partners must choose to sacrifice part of their needs and desires in order to maintain the relationship. Such bargains cannot but fail to evoke resentment, albiet unconsciously, since they are never fully receiving what is believed to be their due."

Major Tom	28 Dec 2004
Moongold wrote: Thank you for your consideration ~ And thank you for your consideration Moongold. :) Even though I've not had much to say, I've enjoyed reading this thread very much. There's always going to be someone who doesn't want to hear something. ;) This thread has amply demonstrated that. :laugh: Nonetheless, there's room here for everyone. Everyone has a voice, even if they feel shy. })

The Giving and receiving feedback at Aeclectic thread was originally posted on 24 Dec 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.