Marseille and/or Marseilles : Why Both?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 19 Dec 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Fulgour	19 Dec 2004
I have been wondering why we see the spelling of this name being done back and forth two different ways. Which is it ~ Marseille for the Tarot and Marseilles for the actual location? I see both all the time and I'm hoping to find an explanation.

Rusty Neon	19 Dec 2004
Fulgour wrote: I have been wondering why we see the spelling of this name being done back and forth two different ways. Which is it ~ Marseille for the Tarot and Marseilles for the actual location? I see both all the time and I'm hoping to find an explanation. In French, the name of the town is Marseille, while in English it's Marseilles and in Spanish it's Marsella. Thus, it would be Tarot de Marseille in French, Tarot of Marseilles in English and Tarot de Marsella in Spanish. When we write "Marseille deck" as a shorthand, we mean Tarot de Marseille, while when we write "Marseilles deck", we mean Tarot of Marseilles.

littlehermit	19 Dec 2004
And in Italian it's Marsiglia. :)

Fulgour	19 Dec 2004
So then, is it always correct to use Marseille (French) even if the rest of the words are given English spellings, but then incorrect to use Marseilles if the rest of the words are written in French? Kind of like just using any French word when writing in English, but not the other way around, so "Marseille" is always correct. Correct: The Tarot of Marseilles Le Tarot de Marseille Technically Incorrect: The Tarot of Marseille Incorrect: Tarot de Marseilles Le Tarot de Marseilles

Rusty Neon	19 Dec 2004
Fulgour wrote: So then, is it always correct to use Marseille (French) even if the rest of the words are given English spellings, but then incorrect to use Marseilles if the rest of the words are written in French? Kind of like just using any French word when writing in English, but not the other way around, so "Marseille" is always correct. Correct: The Tarot of Marseilles Le Tarot de Marseille or even The Tarot of Marseille Incorrect: Tarot de Marseilles Le Tarot de Marseilles Technically, "The Tarot of Marseille" would be incorrect, while "The Tarot of Marseilles" would be correct. However, in terms of shorthand, as noted in my first post, you can say either "the Marseilles deck" or "the Marseille deck".

Fulgour	19 Dec 2004
So for most people, when they refer to this deck, they would probably be writing it just as: The Marseilles Tarot, or even The Tarot of Marseilles (both correct) And then if they wanted to refer to it in the more flowery French way, it would be: Le Tarot de Marseille (correct) but not Le Marseille Tarot (improper syntax)

Rusty Neon	19 Dec 2004
Fulgour wrote: So for most people, when they refer to this deck, they would probably be writing it just as: The Marseilles Tarot, or even The Tarot of Marseilles (both correct) Yes, both correct. :) As well, the "Marseille Tarot" is arguably correct, as English shorthand for Tarot de Marseille, but some might disagree. Fulgour wrote: And then if they wanted to refer to it in the more flowery French way, it would be: Le Tarot de Marseille, or even Le Marseille Tarot (both correct) "Le Tarot de Marseille" would be correct, whereas "Le Marseille Tarot" wouldn't be correct as that isn't correct French syntax. As well, English usage supports "The Tarot de Marseille" as correct in English. Used in a sentence, it would be more natural to say in English "I read with the Tarot de Marseille." or "I read with the Tarot of Marseilles." rather than to say "I read with Le Tarot de Marseille."

jmd	20 Dec 2004
For the purposes of cross reference, exactly the same question was previously asked in the thread: [center]Marseille or MarseilleS[/center]

Fulgour	20 Dec 2004
Side Notes on the History of Massalia/Marseille Before the Roman invasion of what is modern-day France by Julius Cæsar (58-52 B.C.), France was inhabited largely by a Celtic people that the Romans referred to as Gauls, although one also finds other linguistic/ethnic groups in France at this time, such as the Iberians (in southern France and Spain), the Ligurians (on the Mediterranean coast), Greek and Phoenician outposts (like Marseille) and the Vascons (on the Spanish/French border). http://www.iridis.com/glivar/French_language * Marseille celebrated its 2600th birthday before the year 2000. It is therefore the oldest town in France. The legend surrounding the origins of the town go back to 600 B.C. Greek sailors coming from Phocaea (Asia Minor) chose to focus their activity... http://marseillesfr.ags.myareaguide.com/ * Sea trade went directly to Massalia, where goods traveled up the Rhône. http://www.ancientroute.com/cities/massilia.htm

Adjustment	20 Dec 2004
jmd wrote: For the purposes of cross reference, exactly the same question was previously asked in the thread: [center] Marseille or MarseilleS [/center] Thanks for the link. tara.

Rusty Neon	20 Dec 2004
The English spelling of foreign location geographical names evolves over time. For example, I've noticed lately in the Canadian media that the name of the Ukrainian city of Kiev, while traditionally spelled Kiev, is now sometimes being spelled Kyiv. For a long time, the traditional English spelling "Marseilles" has, notwithstanding England's geographical proximity to France, withstood the test of time against the French spelling for the city of "Marseille". English "language usage guides" have insisted on "Marseilles". That was the basis for my posts earlier in this thread. I note that The London Times newspaper's usage guide continues to support the English spelling Marseilles for the French city. However, there is some change brewing. For instance, the language usage guides issued by the Manchester Guardian newspaper and by the Montreal Gazette (the English language newspaper that is located in Montreal, Canada, the world's largest English/French bilingual city, and that, yet, is conscious of the need for the integrity of the English language) now support the English spelling of "Marseille" in preference to "Marseilles". It may well be that, eventually, the traditional English spelling "Marseilles" may become archaic. To my eyes at least, and for now at least, Marseilles is the preferable English spelling. But who am I to impede linguistic change? :) While others may prefer to wait until the change is canonized (if not already) in the Oxford Dictionary of the English Language, my view is that, given the aforementioned flux and differences in editorial opinion as to the English spelling of the word, perhaps both spellings (Marseille/Marseilles) are acceptable in today's English. Thus, all three of "the Tarot of Marseilles", "the Tarot of Marseille", and "the Tarot de Marseilles" would be linguistically acceptable. (Others are free to disagree.) Of the three, the 'safest' spelling is "the Tarot de Marseille" which, even though French (with the proposition "de"), has become a technical term in English. Of course, "the Tarot de Marseilles" would still be incorrect as "de" is a French preposition equivalent to the English "of" and Marseille is never spelled as Marseilles in French.

Diana	20 Dec 2004
The English also spell the town of Lyon with an "s" at the end. I have always wondered why, especially as they don't pronounce the "s".

Kissa	20 Dec 2004
he he he... that's why i use "TdM" in most of my posts :D for english speakers, that would be "ToM" then.... Kissa

Diana	20 Dec 2004
Kissa wrote: he he he... that's why i use "TdM" in most of my posts :D for english speakers, that would be "ToM" then.... Kissa Of course, we could also call it.... The ONE.

Moongold	20 Dec 2004
Fulgour wrote: Correct: The Tarot of Marseilles Le Tarot de Marseille Ah ..... as usual, I have been correct :D

Fulgour	20 Dec 2004
littlehermit wrote: And in Italian it's Marsiglia. :) Ah... this must be what is behind your delightful use of the acronym: TdeM Take note, historians! :)

Moongold	20 Dec 2004
Fulgour wrote: Ah... this must be what is behind your delightful use of the acronym: TdeM Take note, historians! :) Do you mean tedium ? Or perhaps te deum? .........Thee God we praise...... ?

Anna	20 Dec 2004
Moongold wrote: Do you mean tedium? :) Moongold, I am shocked!! :eek::eek::eek: LOL!! :D English spelling is just silly. I'm off to start a campaign for the abolition of silent letters and other ridiculous spelling rules. *CP wanders off waving a placard and chanting "i before e, regardless of c!!"*

tmgrl2	20 Dec 2004
Marseille for me all the time...That way I don't have to stop and think about which one to use.... terri

The Marseille and/or Marseilles : Why Both? thread was originally posted on 19 Dec 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.