Seacred cards?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 23 Dec 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

knowledge	23 Dec 2004
Today I heard that when the oldone's gave the tarot to the people they didn't give them all of the crds. Is that the truth? If so does anyone know or gess what kind of cards are hiden?

Dark Inquisitor	23 Dec 2004
Interesting ! Where did you hear this? Who are the Old Ones? Which people was it given to first? I often wonder about missing major arcana. For example, what if the tarot is really a clock ? Then we would be missing 2 hours.

Fulgour	23 Dec 2004
I think the first deck of "tarot" cards got started when someone noticed that the Hebrew alphabet cards they were looking at were actually capable of being used to create a special set of images based on the attributions. As the idea grew, friends and fellows contributed, until Aleph to Tav, by element and by planet and by month, little junior's toy ABC's became an adult tool. Imagine.

HudsonGray	23 Dec 2004
Not likely to be true--which old ones? which people? There is some speculation with the Rider Waite deck & Thoth that since they're based on Freemasonry so much that not all the symbology was explained (Mason secrets at the turn of the century you know!) or that some images may be 'off' so that the average person won't have 100% of the info whereas a true Freemason would know it immediately. But enough has been written about both authors & decks that those 'secrets' are pretty much revealed. The older decks, they've got enough speculation going on around them they don't need extra stories added--it just clutters up the historical research. A lot has been debunked, you wouldn't believe some of the tales about where tarot first came from.

jmd	24 Dec 2004
There are some who would like to increase the number of cards or suits from Tarot to something else... and some decks have in fact already done this. In my personal view, this would make it, though perhaps a wonderful and expanded deck, it would not be because certain cards are in any manner 'missing'.

knowledge	24 Dec 2004
number of cards they can do that andcall it Orcal. right?

Diana	24 Dec 2004
knowledge wrote: Today I heard that when the oldone's gave the tarot to the people they didn't give them all of the crds. Is that the truth? If so does anyone know or gess what kind of cards are hiden? Knowledge: The origin of the Tarot itself is hotly disputed amongst people - even historians. So your question: "Is that the truth" will only receive speculatory answers. (I personally love the speculation and the discussions that ensue, because there is usually a speck or two of gold that gets uncovered. Each time a speck of gold is discovered, we are enriched.) What kind of cards are hidden? There is in my opinion, only one card that is "hidden" (I am speaking metaphorically - to me the Tarot is Complete), and that is the 23rd.... which is the card beyond Le Mat (Le Mat is the un-numbered card that is translated as The Fool in English). It is the card that will perhaps appear when The Tarot is transcended - but what is funny about that (not funny ha-ha, but funny peculiar) is that when The Tarot is transcended, the 23rd card will vanish... so it will exist without existing. I am speaking more or less (more or less, because I am not a buddhist) of what Buddhists would perhaps call Nirvana. (What you call the Old Ones, I personally refer to as The Ancients. I like the idea of calling them the Old Ones.... :) ). (I also love the spelling mistake you made in the title of the thread. You wrote "Seacred" instead of "Sacred". The Sea... the Ocean.... is where "human" life on earth began, not so? According to scientists, I mean.)

Diana	24 Dec 2004
knowledge wrote: number of cards they can do that andcall it Orcal. right? One can also make an Oracle with 78 cards. It's not the number of the cards that makes something Tarot or not Tarot. It is the message inherent in the cards that makes something Tarot. (Although Tarot is not Tarot if it does not have 78 cards....)

Ross G Caldwell	24 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: (What you call the Old Ones, I personally refer to as The Ancients. I like the idea of calling them the Old Ones.... :) ). I call my mother-in-law "the Old One" (my wife does too) She never gave me a tarot though... unless it was one in which ALL the cards were missing, and I just didn't notice it. (please take the above in the jovial spirit of Christmas :-)

Diana	24 Dec 2004
Ross G Caldwell wrote: I call my mother-in-law "the Old One" (my wife does too) She never gave me a tarot though... unless it was one in which ALL the cards were missing, and I just didn't notice it. (please take the above in the jovial spirit of Christmas :-) As long as ALL 78 cards were missing, then I suppose we could suppose she gave you a Tarot deck. If I were you, I'd get counting... and if you [don't] find 79 missing cards, let us know. (That would be a nice Christmas present.)

roppo	24 Dec 2004
hi, knowledge! "The Old One" you referred -- is it somehow connected with such unspeakable names as Azathoth or Chthuluh? (sorry, spelling uncertain) I love the weird tales!

HudsonGray	24 Dec 2004
I bet you're referring to the Dungeons & Dragons type of Cthulhu. Do any searching online & all the cthulhu connections are role playing based, go to any .edu site and look for Mesopotamian myths (covers Sumeria, Babylon, etc.) and there's no mention at all, though you'll find a hugely extensive list of the major and minor gods used in that area of the world. The writer H.P. Lovecraft pretty much used the name because it sounded cool, but all his stuff are works of fiction, as were the books/stories put out by the other writers who borrowed and played off Lovecraft's characters.

knowledge	25 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: One can also make an Oracle with 78 cards. It's not the number of the cards that makes something Tarot or not Tarot. It is the message inherent in the cards that makes something Tarot. (Although Tarot is not Tarot if it does not have 78 cards....) In that spirit, I really love the Orcale, well same of them. To me they have more minning in each card then the tarot. They have to, the tarot are the "same" in every pack. Like 7 of wands, basicly they mean the same in Waite or Thot. But the Orcle each card is defreant so they have to put in every card alot of meaning to the picture.

knowledge	25 Dec 2004
sorry Roppo,I don't get the name. I heard the story from a freind.

wandking	25 Dec 2004
Perhaps we should use caution in references to "The Old Ones" many religions incorperate this term to discribe a universal Divine wisdom. In essence, in those belief systems the Old Ones represent the supreme deity. Who here would enjoy someone making light of the deity they worship?

Diana	25 Dec 2004
wandking wrote: Perhaps we should use caution in references to "The Old Ones" many religions incorperate this term to discribe a universal Divine wisdom. In essence, in those belief systems the Old Ones represent the supreme deity. Who here would enjoy someone making light of the deity they worship? When you mean "making light", do you mean kind of making fun of them? I remember reading about some tribe or ethnic group somewhere who would put their gods in prison for a few days if they didn't respond to the sacrifices that people had made. For instance, if they had asked for rain and it didn't rain, they would lock the god (the symbol of him) away in prison for five to six days. Sometimes they would even decapitate the god and put a new one in his place. I myself tend to get pretty pissed off at the tarot gods ( :D ) at times when they refuse to answer my questions. For instance they won't tell me why Le Diable's XV sword doesn't have a handle. And they laugh at me when I ask them what EXACTLY is that little round disk that Le Bateleur I is holding. And when I ask them what the dog likes to eat who accompanies Le Mat, they tell me CHOCOLATE ECLAIRS!!!! Now if they are not careful, I will lock them away also for a few days.... Pesky little things, the tarot gods ( :D ) (Only kidding... sort of..... )

L'Etoile	25 Dec 2004
You say you got this information from a friend. Tell me, does this friend read Piers Anthony? Said author made a claim in his Tarot series that about 22 cards are missing from the decks we use now. Pure bull. And please, who are these Old Ones you speak of? And where did they get the Tarot if they gave it to our culture? Please note: this is all purely in the spirit of information, not said in any disparaging way. LA

full deck	30 Dec 2004
Sounds more like a Yu-gi-oh dueling deck than a Tarot deck. That darned crystal blue-eyes white dragon card is really special . . . Seriously, I would have to agree with jmd about the idea of missing cards. I don't believe there are any.

Ivy Rhiannon	02 Mar 2005
Cards missing? I like this idea, although it kinda makes you feel jipped, eh? Hey, I could have had Nirvana if it was in the damn deck! LOL :D Maybe like Diana said they left it out for a reason. Maybe Nirvana is reached when we live our life...the cycle of the tarot...and, well, die. Or maybe it is represents the whole deck. Who knows? I for one think the tarot gods got the cards by watching humans and thinking, "Hey if somebody doesn't give them direction soon that idot is going to walk right off that cliff!" Lesser Tarot God, "But isn't that cheating?" "The way I see the otherworld will be over flowing in a matter of no time and well it's not like they'll really use it..." Lesser Tarot God, "Whatever you say boss!" smacks lesser tarot god on head and says, "NOT THAT CARD! Are you kidding me?" Lesser Tarot God, "What did I do! Don't you wanna give em the complete deck?" "No, lets see how I can explain it...Ok this is like the 'get out of jail free card' ok? Geez!" LOL, sorry that is too funny!

Lillie	04 Mar 2005
'Amado Crowley' (somebody's son, at the very least) made a tarot deck to end all tarot decks. More cards than you could shake a stick at. When I hear the name Chuluthu (no, I can't spell it) I always think of Illuminatus and 5 assassins all elbowing each other out of the way on the grassy knoll. But that's just me, and I'm an old one.

The Seacred cards? thread was originally posted on 23 Dec 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.