Strength or Justice

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 28 Dec 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Moongold	28 Dec 2004
Those of you who are familiar with the Lifetime card system devised by Angeles Arriens and promoted by Mary Greer will eventually confront this dilemma if you have not already. If you get the numbers 8 or 11 as your year card you will have to choose between Strength and Justice. This is because the French traditions of Tarot assigned number 8 tin the Major Arcana to Justice and the Godden Dawn tradition assigned number 8 to Strength. This meant that number 11 had to filled by Strength or Justice respectively in the two separate traditions. There are different views about this. One of them is that the Golden Dawn felt there were problems with the alignment of the Marseilles sequence with the Hebrew alphabet and its astrological attributions (Mary Greer: Tarot Constellations Appendix A). Angeles Arriens herself felt that once Strength and Justice were both back to back. This view is supported by the Rosenwald collection of Tarot cards dating back to the 16th century in which both Strength and Justice are numbered 8. People are probably going to argue about this and will have a chance to do so in this thread. The poll is being posted at the request of Jumptothemoonyea and Sunchariot who are facing the dilemma right now and would appreciate any information which will help them make a decision. I have not done a poll for a long time and hope this works.

jmd	28 Dec 2004
The number eight associated with the Virtue of Justitia precedes the earliest Tarot cards found - and is said to be associated with Justice from ancient Greek times. The question becomes not, of course, whether eight or eleven have other connections with Justice, but also which (if either) fits the sequence, as Moongold has also indicated.

Fudugazi	28 Dec 2004
It really makes no sense to put Justice anywhere but at number 8. In all symbolic numerology systems (that's from the European, to the Chinese, to the Japanese, to the Indian, the African, the Inca, etc., from Ancient to Modern times) the number 8 - the double of 4 (the square, stable number) is the number of cosmic balance and by extension, of justice. In just about any culture you can think of, the number 8 is the cosmic regulator, what adjusts and stabilises the Universe, as well as completing it. Shiva has eight forms, which keeps the universe in balance. There are 8 trigrams to the I-ching - again, a symbol of the golden mean, of perfect balance. The Dogons see 8 as the number of the first human beings (all hermaphrodites, though 4 are mainly male and 4 mainly female) - he eighth is the master of the WORD, which is one of the attributes of Justice. In Christian cosmogony, 8 is the number of the Resurrection (7 days, and the 8th is resurrection) and therefore the day when we will go before Justice. Pythagoras and the gnostics ascribed 8 to central balance - and linked it to Justice. The Golden Dawn saw fit to reinvent all that, but their system in nonsensical.

BlueLotus	28 Dec 2004
I admit that I am no expert in Tarot history, but I voted for 8 for strength and 11 for justice, since the first decks I aquired were RWS. Granted, though, this shifting really doesn't confuse me as much as card images not following the basic meanings, but rather been given some alien meanings, or that the basic element of cards have been shifted for the fun of it, as in some Lo Scarabeo decks, and a couple of others as well.

Fudugazi	28 Dec 2004
I should like to hear from those who think Justice is 11 and Strength 8, what, beyond force of habit (the use of a RWS deck and clones), justifies such an attribution. I learnt with RWS, but very quickly switched those two cards back because the way Waite had ordered them made no sense at all to me. But if there is a sense to you: what is it?

Sulis	28 Dec 2004
I voted for Justice 8 and Strength 11 - even though the decks I use are based on the Rider-Waite-Smith deck I prefer the earlier numbering of these 2 cards, numeroloically it makes more sense to me to have them this way round. I usually just switch the numbers round in my head. Love Sulis xx

Baneemy	28 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: I should like to hear from those who think Justice is 11 and Strength 8, what, beyond force of habit (the use of a RWS deck and clones), justifies such an attribution. I learnt with RWS, but very quickly switched those two cards back because the way Waite had ordered them made no sense at all to me. But if there is a sense to you: what is it? Waite's system is based on mapping the Fool and the 21 trumps to the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet, and the Sepher Yetzirah associates each Hebrew letter with an astrological sign, planet, or element, such that the 9th letter (8th trump) is Leo and the 10th letter (11th trump) is Libra. He swapped Strength and Justice so the iconography of the cards would match the astrological correspondences better. It's as simple as that. As far as I know, there is no other good reason to have Justice as 11 and Strength as 8.

gargoyle_guarded	28 Dec 2004
In The Witches Tarot... Strenght is VIII Justice is X The Wheel of Fortune is XI

Fulgour	28 Dec 2004
1. Aleph ~ Air 2. Beth ~ a planet 3. Gimmel ~ a planet 4. Daleth ~ a planet 5. Heh ~ Aries 6. Waw ~ Taurus 7. Zayin ~ Gemini 8. Heth ~ Cancer 9. Teth ~ Leo 10. Yodh ~ Virgo 11. Kaph ~ a planet 12. Lamedh ~ Libra 13. Mem ~ Water 14. Nun ~ Scorpio 15. Samekh ~ Sagittarius 16. Ayin ~ Capricorn 17. Peh ~ a planet 18. Tsade ~ Aquarius 19. Qoph ~ Pisces 20. Res ~ a planet 21. Shin ~ Fire 22. Tav ~ a planet

ambermoon	28 Dec 2004
I have chosen to work with decks using the Golden Dawn traditions, and voted accordingly. I can see the arguments in either direction, and am not as passionate about numbers/numerology as I am visual symbols. The astrological correspondences are slightly more meaningful to me, and strength with Leo seems to be an ideal fit. There are many paths through life, and most are of our own choosing, so to accept one or another sequence of yearly themes is just another of those choices we make. ambermoon

Fudugazi	28 Dec 2004
gargoyle_guarded wrote: In The Witches Tarot... Strenght is VIII Justice is X The Wheel of Fortune is XI That's the weirdest yet! What is the reason for that ordering?

northsea	28 Dec 2004
jmd and Helvetica, thanks for the information regarding the number 8 and Justice. That does make a lot of sense. I assign Justice to 11 simply because it seems to fit the sequence with Justice being the final of the lower cards, and the Hanged Man initiating the higher sequence. I'm not particular about this though.

WalesWoman	28 Dec 2004
I learned with RWS ,so for me...it is most likely out of habit than rational thought. I just got the Sacred Rose Tarot and 8 is Justice and 11 Strength...so it's sort of difficult in some ways for me to reconcile the differences, but somehow I'm sure to manage it. I can see the reasoning for either way, but to me Justice/Libra seems to make a lot more sense. I don't know, both of these cards come up for me all the time and Justice is my lesson or soul card...I can never keep it straight...Strength is always there too. I'm no help solving the year card dilemma, sorry.

WolfSpirit	28 Dec 2004
For me Justice=8 sounds more logical, but my most beloved decks have Strength=8. When I look at a new deck, I will look at the over-all philosophy behind the deck, the theme and the artwork, but the numbering is not really an issue for me whether I will or will not like a deck. So I had to vote it does not matter to me.

Penelope	28 Dec 2004
Nisanu Ayaru Simanu Du'uzu Abu Ululu Tashritu Arach-Samna Kislimu Shabatu Tebetu Adaru

MeeWah	29 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: I should like to hear from those who think Justice is 11 and Strength 8, what, beyond force of habit (the use of a RWS deck and clones), justifies such an attribution. I learnt with RWS, but very quickly switched those two cards back because the way Waite had ordered them made no sense at all to me. But if there is a sense to you: what is it? This subject has arisen a number of occasions; evident of its significance, I posted in another thread in this forum regarding my personal view, in part influenced by an early study of numerology preceding Tarot & otherwise possibly due to the introduction to Tarot via RWS: "It makes sense to me that Strength precedes Justice, just as an understanding of the conceptual of 8 is prerequisite to that of 11. They are also aspects of the same energy. 8 is two circles poised one on top of the other & thus together. 8 represents the concept of "as above, so below". An understanding the spiritual values represented by the top circle of 8 is learned through the lessons & experiences of the material/moral values represented by the bottom circle of 8. The result is the Strength of character that leads to the advancement. 11 is two 1's side by side, a paired union of opposites standing together. 11 is the first of the master numbers representing mastery on the physical plane--using the knowledge, experience & wisdom gained from the primary numbers. Justice is a union of the dual forces which commands an impartial wisdom, free of the material/moral prejudices inherent within 8..." To view the thread in its entirety: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=33563&page=1&pp=10 I also associate Strength with Fire/Leo; Justice with Air/Libra.

jmd	29 Dec 2004
Here are a few other threads on the same topic: Numbering of Justice and Strenth cards ; Strength 11, Justice 8 ; VIII Strength : XI or Not? ; Numerical ordering of the Justice and Strength cards ; Strength and Justice placements ; Strength or Justice--why VII [i] ? ; strength/justice debate ; & no. 11 - Strength or Justice? . I trust some of these are also of interest :) ....

Fudugazi	29 Dec 2004
MeeWah wrote: "It makes sense to me that Strength precedes Justice, just as an understanding of the conceptual of 8 is prerequisite to that of 11. They are also aspects of the same energy. 8 is two circles poised one on top of the other & thus together. 8 represents the concept of "as above, so below". An understanding the spiritual values represented by the top circle of 8 is learned through the lessons & experiences of the material/moral values represented by the bottom circle of 8. The result is the Strength of character that leads to the advancement. 11 is two 1's side by side, a paired union of opposites standing together. 11 is the first of the master numbers representing mastery on the physical plane--using the knowledge, experience & wisdom gained from the primary numbers. Justice is a union of the dual forces which commands an impartial wisdom, free of the material/moral prejudices inherent within 8..." . Thank you to those who have taken time explaining their views - and MeeWah - thanks for the above. It has also given me the opportunity to examine my own thoughts on the place of man in the universe, as reflected in the Tarot. I realise I see things as a mirror image of you MeeWah - rather than strength coming before to build justice, I see the vital spark that is embedded in strength lighting up within a just and ordered universe (as represented by the number for cosmic balance, 8), which garantees that it will not be abused. I understand the progressive path you trace, though in my view the progression goes the other way, but I still do not understand how Waite took a number that was, since numbers exist, taken by all cultures as the number for cosmic balance - 8 (two fours, which give both stability and balance) - and arbitrarily ascribed to it another quality (with a miscalculation as to the astrological correspondence too, as it appears from Fulgour's list). Despite the "as above so below", which to me argues even more for an attribution of eight to Justice ;) !

jmd	29 Dec 2004
Waite, following Wescott (of the GD), did something quite simple... but it is the sequence of a number of simple actions that resulted in the interchange. The first step is that Wescott took E. Levi's comments that there is a correlation between the Atouts and the Hebrew Alphabet (though Levi begun A=1=Bateleur). He then placed the Fool with a zero, and hence before one. Then the new sequence, with the Fool beginning the series (rather then either ending it or placing it as penultimate) was sequentially correlated with the Hebrew letters in order - never mind as to what the numerical value (whether ordinal or cardinal, but especially ordinal) of the letters are. Then, and importantly, note was made as to the elemental, zodiacal and planetary attributions of the letters by such important Kabalistic text as the Sefer Yetzirah... with special note that unlike the zodiac and the elements, various versions of the Yetzirah have differing planetary correlations (allowing for their own further preferred alteration). Note was then made that with their preferred letter attributions, Leo fell on Justice, and Libra on Strength. It therefore seemed quite reasonable to Wescott to 'rectify' the order. I am not in the least suggesting I agree with the changes, only simply explaining them.

Moonbow*	29 Dec 2004
I read with various types of decks..... Marseilles, RWS, Thoth and Oracles, and the only time I take notice of the number sequence is in the Marseilles. It's important in the meaning of the cards, and for this reason I use what numerology knowledge I have, which shows clearly to me that Justice is 8 and Strength is 11. The number 8 is a number of Judgement and balance and to me fits nicely with the Justice card. The number 11 is a number of ambition and awakening (as it follows 10) and therefore Strength.

Umbrae	29 Dec 2004
...uh...why must we number the Majors? Because somebody before us did? If they jump off a cliff, must we…? Waite followed Wescott who followed MacKenzie who followed Levi…Big deal. What made Levi so special. He wasn’t the world’s expert on either Hebrew, or CowBullah. …and then when we’re talking about numerical sequencing you wanna throw in planets and blah blah blah… The first decks were not numbered. All numbering is a modern convention based upon fantasy. Arriens and Greer are authors. They write and sell books. They will tell you XIII is named Death. They are wrong. Think on this…you want to sum up your entire life on one card? Your year to ONE CARD? And then wonder A or B? Here’s a card for you..

Lurea	29 Dec 2004
I learned on RWS, so I tend to think strength=8 and justice=11. Now, that's not a reason for anyone else to do so, it's why I tend to think that way. Although I also tend to look at the major arcana as the Fool's journey, so in that way Justice = 11 still makes sense to me. The concept of justice, an individual moral code is one of the last things to develop in kids, in the mid-late teens. A sense of the value of inner strength and compassion/empathy for others develops before justice. I also see the cards 1-9 as developing the inner qualities, and cards 10-21 as looking at the effect outer forces and events have on the individual. So in that sense, Justice- which I often take to mean 'you reap what you sow', still makes sense as 11. It's a card about the interaction between the Fool and the Universe, and it comes right after 10-a card about events and forces changing for the Fool. While I enjoyed trying to verbalize why I think strength 8 makes sense, I'm not committed to that numbering. If one of my decks has it differently I can work with it without a problem.

Fudugazi	29 Dec 2004
Umbrae wrote: ...uh...why must we number the Majors? No obligation at all! No obligation to read the tarot, either, or see it as more than a collection of pretty (or not-so-pretty) pictures. To me numbers is one of many ways of making sense of the world - along with symbols, images, poetry, songs, trees and a good joke told over a mug of mulled wine between friends. I would add that numbers give structure, where the images give poetry. A good balance (at 8 ;))

Adjustment	29 Dec 2004
Umbrae wrote: ...uh...why must we number the Majors? Because somebody before us did? If they jump off a cliff, must we…? Waite followed Wescott who followed MacKenzie who followed Levi…Big deal. What made Levi so special. He wasn’t the world’s expert on either Hebrew, or CowBullah. …and then when we’re talking about numerical sequencing you wanna throw in planets and blah blah blah… The first decks were not numbered. All numbering is a modern convention based upon fantasy. Arriens and Greer are authors. They write and sell books. They will tell you XIII is named Death. They are wrong. Think on this…you want to sum up your entire life on one card? Your year to ONE CARD? And then wonder A or B? Here’s a card for you.. Thanks Umbrae for refreshing my mind, the first decks were no numbered.

jumptothemoonyea	29 Dec 2004
we have only 2 days to make a decision - and I am getting more and more confused , as am frantically trying to make a choice, we do number everything: how many posts, what time is it, how old we are... maybe the journey is not linear, or circular, and many dimensions of tarot (and us) does not fit in the straight line, or astrological system, which is only small part of us (and tarot) ... in my heart, no reason at all, I feel 11 is Strength, and 8 is Balance

Moongold	29 Dec 2004
Then follow your heart. The year card is simply a suggestion which offers a theme which may or may not be useful. It is not obligatory and you will come to whatever is meaningful about this, if anything, in your own time.

Fulgour	29 Dec 2004
jumptothemoonyea wrote: I was reading about everybody calculating and discussing their year card and I calculated mine, and it is 11. Now I am confused at a cross-roads - Strength may be signfied by an open hand ~ the palm is shown as a sign of both giving and recieving. Your year is XI Strength.

ambermoon	29 Dec 2004
jumptothemoonyea wrote: we have only 2 days to make a decision Or, you have until your next birthday, the beginning of your personal year. I have always done traditional new year activities, such as reviewing the past and planning the future, based on my birthday rather than on any of the world's new year celebrations.

Fudugazi	30 Dec 2004
ambermoon wrote: Or, you have until your next birthday, the beginning of your personal year. I have always done traditional new year activities, such as reviewing the past and planning the future, based on my birthday rather than on any of the world's new year celebrations. what if you were born on a 31st of December? You don't start the year 2005 until the 31/12/2005?

MeeWah	30 Dec 2004
Helvetica: According to the Angeles Arrien/Mary K.Greer approach, if one is born on December 31st, the year would be 2004 as the year just prior would have been 2003--based on the last birthday. For me personally & as a reader, it makes sense to look at a year from birthday to birthday.

jumptothemoonyea	31 Dec 2004
I found the solution! Happy New Year Everyone!

Moonbow*	01 Jan 2005
jumptothemoonyea I'm with you on this one! :D

Fudugazi	01 Jan 2005
jumptothemoonyea wrote: I found the solution! Happy New Year Everyone! LOL! Be strong and be just, and enjoy the New Year...

KathleenC	20 Jan 2005
To me Strength at number 8 seems to be more to do with physical strength, and at 11 it is more of an abstract concept, such as strength of character. And the same with Justice.

Rusty Neon	20 Jan 2005
Justice as other than 8, and Strength as other than 11, isn't something that was innovated by the Golden Dawn. For example, the Jacques Viéville tarot deck (a 17th century French tarot deck) numbers Justice as 7 and numbers Force as 9. http://www.tarotpassages.com/vieville.htm

Fulgour	20 Jan 2005
The surviving copy of the Vieville has hand drawn numbers, whereas VIII Justice was paired with letter number 12 (Libra), so that XI Strength could be matched to letter 9 (Leo). :)

Rusty Neon	20 Jan 2005
In follow-up to my post of a few moments ago, I also note that in the Minchiate deck (though not a 'tarot' in the strict sense) numbers Strength as 7 and Justice as 8. http://www.tarot.org.il/Minchiate/Trumps.html Minchiate (Fiorentine pattern)

Fulgour	20 Jan 2005
Rusty Neon wrote: In follow-up to my post of a few moments ago, I also note that in the Minchiate deck (though not a 'tarot' in the strict sense) numbers Strength as 7 and Justice as 8. The Minchiate numbering is so unlike Tarot as to be merely academic.

The Strength or Justice thread was originally posted on 28 Dec 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.