Tarot as a divinatory tool

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Dec 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

smleite	20 Dec 2004
I’ve wanted to ask you all a question for a long time already. Since in the last few days I accompanied some discussions about the validity – or not – of Tarot’s predictions (maybe of divinatory tools in general), I guess this is the proper timing for me to open this thread. Assuming that the vast majority of Aecletians use Tarot as a divinatory tool (only as a divinatory tool, or also as a divinatory tool), I hope to get some of your insights about this. My personal belief is that Tarot cannot predict an event, but only the possibility of an event, which is more about doing a more or less accurate probability calculus than about doing futurology. The fact that we usually have very little information about what is really happening leads us to see an event as a surprise (when in truth it was being forged a long time ago), or to completely miss the point of a crisis, or to feel absolutely helpless before the flow of our life’s episodes. I guess I believe Tarot “simply” helps us get a wider view of life, get to a point where we have access to more data, so as to make a more precise idea of what is going on – even if we are not really conscious of that. Of course (since I also believe in free choice), even a highly probable event can change dramatically or just abort. Plus, I think even with the help of Tarot we cannot have access to information about events that are not yet “in formation” in our lives, and those events can make a whole scenery change. This is what I think. We can see that a certain team will win a match, because they have “everything” on their side, but imagine their trainer suddenly has a heart attack out of the blue, and they lose motivation… I believe Tarot could see a disease already in formation, but not a heart attack caused by a very sudden emotional situation, see? And the question is - to what extent do you think Tarot can “predict” something?

darwinia	20 Dec 2004
smleite wrote: And the question is - to what extent do you think Tarot can “predict” something? I would never think to ask. I am in the vast minority of those who don't use it for divination. GASP!!! Of such heresy is a whale with a plaid coat created to demonstrate no particular archetype, just the infinite riff of joyous imagination. Possibilities are formless, consciousness requires no definition, everything is accessible. I'm calling the whale "Lumpy"

dadsnook2000	20 Dec 2004
I found your statement to be quite thoughtful and clear. I've found that Tarot provides an answer to the question asked. If the question is specific then the answer tends to be either clearly specific or specifically vague. This isn't a contradiction. If it has an answer, then it gives one. If the situation is vague, then it says so. Now, that being said, I agree that situatons and events are formed over a period of time, often in collaboration with others. If that formation is not a tight one, or if there are conflicts within the path to an event, than the event will either be delayed or modified, if it emerges at all. I find that Tarot is poor at timing compared to Astrology. If I want to do prediction then I use Astrology which is far more precise in its timing and in its component energies and influences. Dave.

contradiction	20 Dec 2004
the way i look at tarot is this, it says "this is what is going to happen unless you do something to change it." unfortunatly, most of the time we don't listen, or we let it happen anyway. but, yes nothing is written in stone. things change, people change. that's life. tarot gives us a snapshot, of the outcome of things in our life based on what the situation, and actions of those involved are at this precise moment. unless you ask, what if i do this instead. and even then, the actions of other can change the outcome. but i have seen the tarot be very accurate about too many things not to believe that it can predict the future. contradiction

northsea	20 Dec 2004
I don't really know if it can predict the future, maybe because I'm not psychic, but I think it can tap into a people's unconscious. ;0 Our conscious mind is just the tip of the mind-iceberg, and the tarot helps to unlock that vast reservoir below the surface. That's how I look at it; mainly a tool for self-realization. (I think this is like the Jungian belief, thought I haven't read much Jung.)

gollog	21 Dec 2004
I don't think tarot can predict events. Frankly, I believe it is impossible to predict the future in any way. I use tarot only as a tool for gaining insight in myself and trying to find my real motives for doing or not doing things. I feel that all the information that the cards give me is already inside me and sometimes just needs an extra 'pull' to get out. That doesn't mean I havn't tried to predict date's or events in the future on a few occasions (you never know right?http://www.tarotforum.net/images/icons/icon12.gif Wink), but it never worked for me.

MeeWah	21 Dec 2004
Although I initially saw Tarot as other than a divinatory tool, I quickly saw that its qualities make it an excellent medium for that purpose whether by itself or in combination with other means. I see its predictive range as limitless--based on personal acquaintance with the prophetic. As that which constitutes "beauty" lies in the eyes &/or mind of the beholder, so is the predictive quality accordingly within those perceptions. That some event, circumstance or condition has its seeds in the past is largely true & reflects that reaping what is sown. The present & the future the product of all that transpired previously or the culmination. What I find most intriguing, however, is that most if not all the predictive I have experienced have been inadvertent (both with & without cards). On the occasions with cards, the readings conducted with no conscious intent to predict; nor were the queries expressive of or related to future probabilities--though possibly inherent. The prophetic aspects seem to evolve during the course of reading. As if the cards small stones dropped in water that resonate in reaction; create ripples on a neutral surface & reveal imagery or information--subject to interpretation, of course. That process of the interpretive may defy explanation, but undoubtedly contributes.

Alta	21 Dec 2004
Thanks MeeWah, my thoughts were forming along that line, though not as far reaching or well expressed. I am certain that Tarot has predictive abilities, and my certainty lies in experience and the practise of it. But, I also feel that the main value of tarot lies it its ability to explore the psychological forces at play in a situation. That is also, after all, predictive. If you thoroughly understand a situation, you know where it is headed.

MeeWah	21 Dec 2004
Marion wrote: ...the main value of tarot lies it its ability to explore the psychological forces at play in a situation. That is also, after all, predictive. If you thoroughly understand a situation, you know where it is headed. Though as a reader I do not consciously seek to isolate the psychologic forces, I do see those & may either consciously or unconsciously incorporate them. The mind's capabilities & functions akin to a computer. It can process & absorb information efficiently; draw upon stored knowledge & blend all the pertinent elements as to extrapolate a likely possibility. The entire process may therefore contribute to a result that *appears predictive*, but could be of finely honed deductive reasoning. Having stated that, however, I still think there is an element of the supernal. That of the inspired or extraordinary that lends its influence & thus goes beyond the mundane or the reasonable faculties.

contradiction	22 Dec 2004
marion, and mewah, you both have brought up a possibility i have not thought of. the pshychological aspects leading to an informed extrapulation, of the future. this makes real sense to me. the only question i have about this is, if this is the case (which i now feel it probably is in most cases), then how do you explain the cards telling me something is going to happen, that i would have no way of knowing, such as a sudden death as a result of an accident. there have been too many times i saw something in the cards that could not be seen as a result of an educated guess, it had to be some predictive quality in the cards. even though i believe your idea, is probably correct, i will never be convinced that the cards do not have some predictive divination, qualities. contradiction

Chenny	22 Dec 2004
Perhaps it's prediction method is leniant by the idea of destiny. A.E. Waite tells of how he believes that certain events are indeed governed by fate as the road has been travelled to a point where there is "no turning back" but at the same time many other things are still up to your choice if you allow the Tarot to help you along the way. In this sense I guess you could say that the Tarot only really helps you in making the right decision when you are able to alter your outcome where as when fate decides, it can only prepare you for what is to come. In seeing this in the Tarot you can often tell that you are still in control when there are more major arcana present or at least that is what I've found. Usually when I know somthing is coming and theres nothing I can do to stop it (which is often, unfortunatly...) the major cards show up less and less often but when my topic is newly beginning and there is much more to come into play the major cards show themselves. You could contradict this and say that its merely a statistic on one persons part but it all comes down to your own opinion. I beleive.

Cat Eyes	22 Dec 2004
I'd like to recommend "What The Bleep Do We Know", a movie about probabilities and possibilities. According to the documentarty recently released, anything is possible if we want it to be so. That is because we create our own reality. We overestimate how smart and advanced we are as human beings. There is a lot we have yet to discover about energy, molecular structure, and how it is all interrelated. Truly, reading my own tarot cards and communicating spiritually with others via psychic/healing readings has made me realize that reality isn't only about past, present and future. It is also about will and destiny.

MeeWah	23 Dec 2004
contradiction wrote: marion, and mewah, you both have brought up a possibility i have not thought of. the pshychological aspects leading to an informed extrapulation, of the future. this makes real sense to me. the only question i have about this is, if this is the case (which i now feel it probably is in most cases), then how do you explain the cards telling me something is going to happen, that i would have no way of knowing, such as a sudden death as a result of an accident. there have been too many times i saw something in the cards that could not be seen as a result of an educated guess, it had to be some predictive quality in the cards. even though i believe your idea, is probably correct, i will never be convinced that the cards do not have some predictive divination, qualities. contradiction Whilst I can see the psychological may contribute or be the result of an "educated guess", I do not deny that the predictive does occur & as stated in my earlier post. The phenomena may owe its provenance to the extraordinary, outside or beyond the known means. Extraordinary is anything not perceived with the mundane senses or the known means, but acquired through other "unknown" or immeasureable means. Perception outside of the usual senses is not necessarily beyond the accessible. Perhaps indicative of the lack of use, recognition or familiarity with what may be actually a natural faculty or a vestigial influence of an evolutionary past. Humans generally acquire information of or from their environs through the known five senses. That humans are capable of perception on more than those senses is evident. For some people for whatever reason, one or more senses may be more keen or better defined--such as those who are blind. The disadvantage of "civilization" is it tends to ignore or discourage anything that may not be readily explained or determined through the scientific. In my own experience, all of the senses are moreorless involved in the reading process; also a faculty other than those which I do not question but accept. Acceptance of such an existing factor may well also contribute to the whole of the predictive.

jmd	23 Dec 2004
I concur with MeeWah that 'all of the senses are moreorless involved in the reading process'... including those higher senses or faculties which we call Imagination, Inspiration and Intuition. If we consider, for example, a child of seven, and ask what are the forces at work transforming the very bodies the child inhabits, then predictions about his or her state for their adolescent or twilight years may indeed be made. In a similar manner, medical expertise may give prognosis as to what transformations and changes will occur - nowadays couched in far more hesitant language, even when there is certainty. This, to me, is one aspect to prediction: stating ('-dict') beforehand what is unfolding by very much tapping into the streams working themselves through the individuals and situations. I also agree with dadsnook2000 with regards to especially his comment about timing. It does indeed seem that Tarot is more concerned with the mapping, then the timing - the vertical, rather than the horizontal, or, perhaps to write it without the inadvertent and un-implied value judgement the two terms bring, the latitudes, rather than the longitudes. Together, Tarot and Astrology each add to the picture. What is brought to bear, to continue, is also more than from simply tapping into impulses working their way and shaping destiny, but also the specific instances that manifest: for example, the specific spots certain petals of a particular rose from a specific rose-bush in my garden may develop. Here, it seems that though myriad possibilities would have played into the rose in question, there is an opening as to how and where the spot may or may not arise. There is also individual human freedom. Of course I may decide on certain courses of action. Yet, deciding and engaging brings with it its own specific consequences, and each thought, each action, each decision, has both its ethical and its epistemological dimensions: it plays on what we do and can know, and on whether it is health-producing or not. One may foresee, however, what someone, in freedom, is also likely to decide. ...not sure if I've made as much sense as I would have liked...

tzuki	23 Dec 2004
Such eloquent replies! I'm ashamed at my own ill-informed opinions. All I can add is, that I certainly do believe the Tarot can predict (for want of a better word) & I have used it, with success, a good deal. But I have never been able to say when things will happen. I use the following analogy with clients & self, that there might be a sequence to be followed: you take off your shoes then your socks then your toe ring & you could do it really quickly or slowly or not at all. Or you could chop your foot off intentionally or a terrible accident might befall you. The Tarot would probably warn you about the accident, but the other options to removing the toe ring, well you decide those....the Tarot just says, the toe rings going. (sorry about the badly thought out analogy, just think how my poor clients have suffered over the years)

Fulgour	23 Dec 2004
smleite wrote: And the question is - to what extent do you think Tarot can “predict” something? Should you feel that it is truly something you want to ask, and respectfully approach the cards and the reading with a willingness to accept what will be revealed, when asking for a specific indication be gracious ~ allow that what will be shown will be what it is that you will benefit most from knowing. If you kindly ask this favour from your reading, there will be a prediction, if you wish ~ but made for you.

Moongold	24 Dec 2004
I have found that if one asks with sincerity about factual matters to do with the self, the answer is always given, even of predictive nature. On three occasions the answers were exact. I knew precisely what would happen. There were options - other decisions could have been made. The outcome was by no means certain. Two of these matters were to do with my career. This happens with a specific deck - the Ancient Egyptian. For one event I asked twice and received the same answer. The same card appeared in both readings. I have bever asked the Tarot to be predictive about another person The Ancient Egyptian is also accurate in providing insight into speciific matters but that is not the theme of this thread.

wandking	24 Dec 2004
Although I generally use a traditional celtic cross spread, which varies only slightly from the example in Waites book, I place emphasis on allowing the cards to offer lessons. Indeed, that spread offers a one potential and two absolute positions for divination. Instead of using them to predict a hard and fast future, I generally emphasize to the client that the future belongs to them and whatever deity they believe controls the universe.

Fudugazi	24 Dec 2004
Fulgour wrote: Should you feel that it is truly something you want to ask, and respectfully approach the cards and the reading with a willingness to accept what will be revealed, when asking for a specific indication be gracious ~ allow that what will be shown will be what it is that you will benefit most from knowing. If you kindly ask this favour from your reading, there will be a prediction, if you wish ~ but made for you. This is completely true. I don't always get the exact answer I am looking for, but I'll get what I need. The same thing when I read for other people, and that I must explain to them. I have learnt to ask the questions I need, now, those that empower me. Of course, sometimes the tarot will warn even if we don't ask - and if we have the wit to understand.

The Tarot as a divinatory tool thread was originally posted on 20 Dec 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.