The instrument is its own teacher

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 03 Dec 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

jmd	03 Dec 2004
It is true that if one was to leave quite a complicated instrument without any instructions, it may never be discovered as to how to use it, nor what it may do. But let's think of some of the musical instruments for a while. With time, if a banjo or saxophone were found - long after the presumed last one had been thrown over a cliff and its perfect pitch heard in the rocky ravine below - it would probably not take decades to figure out that one requires that it be blown (...no... not 'blown up') and the other plucked. It would probably, also over time as various people discovered various aspects to it, that music could indeed be produced from each (according to some, this may indeed be a first!). With Tarot, likewise... the instrument is its own teacher: its sequence, its allegories, its symbols, each speak of their own accord. It is also because of this that some are probably stricter in their sense for what is or is not properly to be permitted in terms of alterations and modifications - they become in turn teachers, and lead in differing directions. For some, of course, that too is fine. What I have written in this post is but to reflect a little on the important point I wish to present for discussion in the very title of the thread: the instrument is its own teacher - therefore wisely choose.

Fulgour	03 Dec 2004
If one were to study clocks, and then compare what they learned to a single twenty-four hour day, to their own experience of time, vital people living energetic lives, the sunrise and sunset, the stars and Moon at night... there so would be found more than any single instrument, or measurement of reference, could possibly convey. What may seem mysterious to the unacquainted remains familiar: Tarot began when life was born, and grows with the spirit of love.

Ruby7	03 Dec 2004
jmd wrote: With Tarot, likewise... the instrument is its own teacher: its sequence, its allegories, its symbols, each speak of their own accord. It is also because of this that some are probably stricter in their sense for what is or is not properly to be permitted in terms of alterations and modifications - they become in turn teachers, and lead in differing directions. For some, of course, that too is fine. What I have written in this post is but to reflect a little on the important point I wish to present for discussion in the very title of the thread: the instrument is its own teacher - therefore wisely choose. Jmd, I like your analogy---it has really got me thinking. I haven't had my morning coffee yet so I hope I make sense :) I have played fiddle for many years, have had 2 different teachers and been around many different players using various techniques getting similar and yet sometimes different results. I have always observed other players, especially the angle they hold their fiddle at and the ease ( or awkwardness in some cases) with which they hold and use their bow. In the end nobody could tell me the best angle for me I had to find it myself because only the player can actually tell what feels right and comfortable. I also observed that the "best" most confident players were very relaxed and comfortable with their instruments----they might not know the most or understand what they were doing but they are at one with their instrument. There are many paths we can choose to follow with the tarot if we read different books on how to read tarot but maybe it is more important just to get to know our "instrument",( everything we need is within the tarot ) and learn directly from it and make our own path accordingly. Very interesting indeed :) I hope I understood you correctly. Ruby7

smleite	03 Dec 2004
Let me explain my view on this subject with another analogy between Tarot and a musical instrument. Musical instruments are not all equal. There is even a concept called “master instrument”. I am not a musician, but I understand we can talk about master instruments in two main ways: as the craft product of the most skilled master makers, that is, as masterpieces of their kind, and as an instrument chosen as term of comparison, based in which we can calibrate another one. So, my “master instrument” is a Tarot deck made by a certified card-maker, the product of a long lineage of master card-makers, even historical card-makers, or at least one who has been widely recognized, by his works and deeds, as master. This implies knowledge and correct use of Tradition, even if a certain degree of innovation, creativity and personal interpretation of the canon is allowed. It is also a deck in which I feel I can trust as a referent. And I want noting less as my teacher. My question: Tarot is only achievable through the use of a deck, and is in fact “consubstantiated” in a deck, but would you trust ANY deck as your Tarot teacher? Silvia

fyreflye	03 Dec 2004
-delete-

damfino	03 Dec 2004
The Zen tradition is full of concepts like that. You can go to a Zen master/monk and they will tell you "the only thing I can teach you is how to learn for yourself". On Tarot, it doesn't seem to stretched... ultimately, there is no book or memo that specifies in a clear and objective manner what each card is supposed to mean. There are guidelines, yes, and we all are familiar with those, but we also know that the cards takes different interpretations depending on where they are in a reading and what cards are surrounding it, all of this in context to the question or subject beind treated. But the music analogy is not really precise... while it doesn't take much of a master mind to figure out how to play the piano, there's tons of things you can't simply "discover" that are a great deal on your playing. For example, the position of the hands according to the size and height of the piano, the way yo have to move your fingers to cover the most notes with the minimum effort... not to mention music theory, which goes from simple stuff like knowing where C4 is, to know all the relatives to each single note of the 12 you have, and how to construact chords based on that. In Tarot, is the same thing. You have one card, and you might think it "speaks" to you and you figure out wat it means. But theres a lot of things one doesn't notice by his own, symbol wise... not everyone has realized that the table of "The Magician" has only 3 legs, or that the crown of "The High Priestess" goes out from the frame. I think that, the more you know, the best knowledge you'll have for your readings. You can learn all this without a teacher, of course... but I don't think it's as simple as simply buying your Marseilles Deck and start reading just like that, trying to figure out what each card "says" to you.

Rusty Neon	03 Dec 2004
damfino wrote: But theres a lot of things one doesn't notice by his own, symbol wise... not everyone has realized that the table of "The Magician" has only 3 legs, or that the crown of "The High Priestess" goes out from the frame. Depends on which Tarot deck you use.

damfino	03 Dec 2004
Rusty Neon wrote: Depends on which Tarot deck you use. Well, of course. I only have the Marseilles Tarot, so I often forget there's others :/ But yeah, symbols change through every deck. That makes the whole learning by yourself concept harder... and easier at the same time.

shelikes2read	04 Dec 2004
damfino wrote: Well, of course. I only have the Marseilles Tarot, so I often forget there's others :/ But yeah, symbols change through every deck. That makes the whole learning by yourself concept harder... and easier at the same time. We can extend the musical-instrument analogy even more if we consider whether the different decks can correlate to the different instruments in an orchestra. Some people gravitate toward one instrument more than another. Some persons can play more than one instrument with skill -- I can think of at least one person in my high school's orchestra who was phenomenal that way. At various times, I saw her play organ, piano, flute, piccolo, guitar, and harmonica, and she played them all well. Other people have tremendous skill in one particular instrument, but have not felt the need or desire to branch out and play others. Similarly, there are countless different styles of music to choose from -- classical, jazz, country, rock, disco, folk, and about a zillion more that I haven't listed here. Some people gravitate naturally toward playing or singing one particular style, and others try their hand at multiple different styles of music. So maybe preferring one particular deck above all others equates to focusing all of one's musical talent on playing one particular instrument. Maybe preferring different spreads, or reading with no spread at all, equates to singing in different musical styles or improvising, as the moment dictates. Every person has a unique combination of talents, and a unique set of preferences, and it's up to each of us to discover how best to apply those resources to Tarot and to life in general. In the end, it's all good.:)

Fulgour	04 Dec 2004
fyreflye wrote: Has anyone ever learned to play the game of tarot without a teacher? Yet tens of thousands believe they know how to "read" it. There is no "game" of Tarot other than by agreement between players.:laugh: Those who read the cards but don't "know" how must bother you no end.

Rusty Neon	04 Dec 2004
shelikes2read wrote: We can extend the musical-instrument analogy even more if we consider whether the different decks can correlate to the different instruments in an orchestra. Some people gravitate toward one instrument more than another. Wonderful reflections! Different decks may be different instruments, yet each is a Tarot.

shelikes2read	04 Dec 2004
jmd wrote: It is true that if one was to leave quite a complicated instrument without any instructions, it may never be discovered as to how to use it, nor what it may do. Or, perhaps, the people who found it might figure out, to a degree, what its capabilities are, but they might utilize it in ways that never occurred to the inventor. Going back to the musical-instrument analogy (can you tell it resonates with me? :)): Suppose I'm handed a musical instrument, the likes of which I've never seen before, with its origins in a faraway country and a culture that's unfamiliar to me. Chances are, as I'm a musician, I will figure out how to get SOME semblance of music to come out of said instrument, if I take my time experimenting with it. However, if the instrument's history and cultural uses are unknown to me, I'll be equally unaware of some of the styles used to play it in its "normal" usage. For example, think of the special sort of strumming that's used on banjos, mandolins, etc. I play guitar and violin, so if someone hands me an unfamiliar string instrument, I'm likely to start trying to play it in a style similar to one of those instruments, even if its original usage (of which, presumably, I'd be unaware) specifies it should be played in a different style. I might end up using that unfamiliar instrument in styles that are familiar to ME, on songs that are familiar to ME, if I have no instructions or musical examples to show me what the instrument's traditional usage is. Isn't that similar to the ways in which Tarot can be utilized? The cards' origins are known, but only to a point. Rules of some of the games that the cards were used for may be passed down to the present day, but I suspect some games or rules may have been lost to history. And where divination is concerned, I wonder if the first people who used Tarot to perform readings would recognize some of the modern-day applications of cards, because Tarot usage has evolved over time. And, as I said in my previous post, each of us has our own unique talents and set of preferences, so it's up to each of us to determine what works best for us. Early Tarot designs or modern decks? Book-learned definitions or intuitive meanings? Spreads that have been used for generations, new spreads, or no spread at all? Or some combination of the above? The journey for us is to determine which of those options, or which combination of them, works best for us. Did I mention that, in the end, it's all good? :)

Cerulean	04 Dec 2004
First said: With Tarot, likewise... the instrument is its own teacher: its sequence, its allegories, its symbols, each speak of their own accord. It is also because of this that some are probably stricter in their sense for what is or is not properly to be permitted in terms of alterations and modifications - they become in turn teachers, and lead in differing directions. For some, of course, that too is fine. What I have written in this post is but to reflect a little on the important point I wish to present for discussion in the very title of the thread: the instrument is its own teacher - therefore wisely choose. Cerulean's response: I first choose Italian tarocchi as a starting point because my preferences when I was going to college was to enjoy Italian romantic literature in translation, if I could. I think that nostalgic bent delighted me when I found Petrarch, Dante and Boccaccio fed the minds of those around in the early days of the ancestral tarocchi/tarot sets. But I also heard something rather interesting this morning about an Irish musician about the fiddle in her learning and background. Her idea is the music that she felt came from a mysterious urge and allegiance within herself from the earliest way of learning--she felt that yes, the framework of expression came from her language and absorption as she was learning language and the culture of her childhood. But she also heard music as she grew up, within herself. She didn't know as she was growing that the instrument of expression would become the fiddle, but eventually it did. So the means of choosing how to express the music was learned: but she had the "urge and talent and fire" to express the music of her developing self or what she heard within herself all along. It's giving me food for thought. I actually don't quite know what further ideas it might lead to in terms of myself...unless it was in terms of how I related to allegorical images and my bent for experimention... Best wishes, Cerulean

Cerulean	05 Dec 2004
What vintage of instrument, is there a year or a designer or a version of the Tarot that became or is becoming "Your Beloved Instrument"? In my father's family, no one but grandfather played the biwa and the instrument is beautiful, forever lovely in my eyes in that shape and form. It's uncovered and polished in an old way and there's always a green plant growing nearby. It's open to air and upright in a nice stand and always take sunlight and shadows from a cool window (outside the window, green moss and a shaded corner is always present because of the eaves of the house). If I ever had the instrument, I would put near it a small shelf and if I had an alter nearby, I think I would put a tarot deck or two that were 'instruments'. If Marseilles, the Marsiglia 1804 If Milanese, di Gumppenberg 1806/1811 (dates vary) If English-American, Rider either 1968 or 1971, not certain of vintage yet. If 1970-2004...well, that is interesting, I'm delightfully following many threads...each are their own teachers. Regards, Cerulean

TemperanceAngel	05 Dec 2004
jmd wrote: With Tarot, likewise... the instrument is its own teacher: its sequence, its allegories, its symbols, each speak of their own accord. It's this part here that strikes a chord with me...Tarot has been my teacher for so long I almost forgot that it was. All I can say thank goodness it doesn't have a a metre length wooden ruler as I was the only female who ever received that on her hand in Primary School (even though it was illegal) and it was for being honest....sheesh.... Choose wisely? Is it like the Holy Grail, if you don't choose the right one you will turn to dust? Teacher it is, it's relentless in its teachings....how wonderful it is when that breakthrough happens with an image, the whole world smiles. I owned a Marseilles once, I swapped it for a Haindl :P }) One can only choose the deck which images speak to them in that language we know that is Tarot....

Rusty Neon	05 Dec 2004
TemperanceAngel wrote: I owned a Marseilles once, I swapped it for a Haindl :P }) For that, the tarot gods will send you to purgatory with a Tarot de Marseille to make amends. :)

TemperanceAngel	05 Dec 2004
Rusty Neon wrote: For that, the tarot gods will send you to purgatory with a Tarot de Marseille to make amends. :) Oh I plan to buy another one! What I need to do is look at all of jmd's Marseilles IRL so I know which one I want, I want a new one....one that I get to open the cellophane and then smell the cards and shuffle them and have them fall everywhere 'cos they are so new and slippery, that will really make me feel like a beginner.... I don't believe in Tarot Gods ;) I've always been an individual, if nothing else!

smleite	06 Dec 2004
And now, getting back to the point of this thread: Jmd, I read these wonderful lines in a site about playing the flute. Please, read them replacing the word “flute” with the word “Tarot”… “One of your major aims should be to develop a sensitivity toward the flute and its interrelationships with you, the player. When you approach the flute in a spirit of love, the instrument itself will teach you. If you are open to what it has to say, it will itself let you know how it should be played. And the instrument is always the best teacher. In this special relationship, the lessons it offers may go beyond mere flute playing. The instrument can also teach you lessons about learning, about life, about love —because the same laws that govern the playing of a flute also govern the workings of the world around you and the world within you. In this way, the flute can become a focal point for the growth of understanding, a pathway to wisdom. Hermann Hesse, in his book Siddhartha, tells us that a person can eventually come to understand the entire universe by starting from any point within it—a butterfly, a rock, a river. The flute is one such point of departure.” Silvia

jmd	06 Dec 2004
smleite, do you have a reference for the quote? It is indeed so perfectly pertinent... I nearly made a reply based on the flute (actually, the shakahachi) - a friend of mine, who has recently retired from being principal piccolo player with the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra, would undoubtedly totally agree.

smleite	06 Dec 2004
Of course, the quote’s reference, how could I forget it? It’s http://www.markshep.com/flute/FAQ.html Amazingly (or not…), the whole text can be read with “Tarot” in mind. All things true are ultimately relating to a same essence? This is about Love and Art. Silvia

Fulgour	07 Dec 2004
I have a new appreciation now for the instrument as its own teacher ~ kind of like the horse as its own rider: Liberating! I wrote a song once, went a little this way... And sure the stars still shine in onetime sunshone skies but the only stars I hope to see are in sweet Maggie's eyes! ~Fulgour

HOLMES	07 Dec 2004
jmd i just finished going up and down my a string on my guitar comparing the other notes in the a scale going against the a string (in other words the tonic). then i did the fourths and fifths going up and down the scale on the a string. as i did that i remembered how far i progressed i.e. learn the notes, learned some basic chords starting to understand how music works more then the 1,4,5 blues progressions.. yet in it all it tooks me long time to get this far. in those times i stopped for years , months, weeks, at various times. so i can say i let the instruement be its own teacher.. though i suspect the ear training method i am using now will allow me to let any instruement teach me so i hope.. and i recall a favourite basic blues guitar book where the boy was taught by an old man.. (who wasnt' really old by my thinking for the boy becomes the old man at the end and it wasn't even like more then few weeks. so old man in this instance refers to one who knows i guess ) who taught the boy the basics of the blues,, how to find the notes on the guitar by ear, to work it out for himself, to do the blue scales a hundred time and how it is in there floating in the brain somewhere when you pratice. one thing i like was how the old man taught 50 licks, and little trick to add to the blue scales he was teaching the boy. at the end he left the boy to his own devices for he has shown the way. this all comes to before the instruement can be it's own teacher,, there was to be a guideline, (in the movie coal miner daughter , loretta taught her self to play yet there was the radio to give her references to learn from i believe). a good ear and understanding in how the guitar fret board works with the blues scales or regular scales break down to.. a tarot teacher in form of a book, of a workshop, or a simple person who you meet in a park one day and teaches you the basics of each card,and how to lay them out. then leaves you to your own devices the basics and tricks of the second example is even better for the man teaches tricks.. and those tricks for me would be how to relate the tarot to astrology, numerology, philopshy, histroy,, but a guitarist rarely uses all the tricks.. example a guitarist for example instead of bending loves to hammer, while another guitar prefers to slide. while old bb king uses his bend to emulate a little side. so a tarot reader would know that for example numerology can be related.. but it doesn't feel natural to them but they sure like the astrology relates.. or colour psychology. the licks in the book would be how a spread works, how combos work, and while you can relate tarot cards in the style of the licks of racheal pollack and mary k greer,, no matter what you do,, your own style will come out. it is improtant i think for a person to have a good understanding of the basics, and signs shown where to look to get better in the tarot in order for them to have the tarot be it own teacher.. now with all that side.. i feel i am just leaving the beginner stage.. or coming close.. that stage is where the book meanings help but the tarot cards talk to me even though the standard meaning doens't apply. which some may say see holmes you should of just used your inuitition in the first place.. which i cant' see it though,, for those who learn on their own,, still love to listen to other music ( in tarot terms,, read books?) jam with others and learn from them in that way( pratice i guess in real settings) and do their excerises with scales and rhthm excerises with no emphasis of learning but to get faster, or to get constistent. (a person may run through the fool,, or magican journey,, then go from ace to ten not to learn anything new,, but to understand them in a new way and to remember the cards.) then the person would push themselves to get past their plateu by going faster, by playing without looking at the book ( this would be the learning new things by writing down insights, or mediating on the cards, or use an astrology emphasis to come to new conclusions ). then finally they just play ,, not for the notion of getting better, or improving,, but for the simple love of it and to enjoy themselves. (one of my favourite thing i saw in a movie was of a guitar player playing a song by himself just giving it his all with no one around .) that could be just throwing down the cards and saying show me what i need to know (or throwing down the cards in front of another and saying let me share with you please it is my honor and privilege) . an instruement only at the end is its own teacher,, in the beginning there are many roads and signs to follow as we progress at our own speed. and that is so of the tarot. one can go to music school and get degrees in the classical style (i wonder can that be liken to reading in the classis marsielles style ?) go to workshops like berkelee ( toth, wiate with astrology and kabbalah) or a modern good basic workshop to learn the basics with the knowledge that it will lead you into other things. (learning the waite and toth by teacher) these all lead to ceritification of some sort in the music world.. (so you can see certiification in the tarot would be good too ) .. yet the classical student can surpass the master, the workshop can lead to new insights based on those advanced concepts,, the modern good workshop can lead you to say good now that i know the basics here i go to develop my own style. (inuition, and empathy readings perhaps) so in conclusions, yes the tarot can be it's own teacher but first,, even mozart and beetoven studied the classical music first before giving their ideas on new movements. for any musician who says i never been trained, took any lessons, nor need any . there was still the listening of music when kids, the music in school,the singing of the christmas carol, the showing of the basics by their parents when they kids to the piano, or friend. the instruement is its own teacher but first we have to be shown to understand its special music, to understand how it works, and pratice. the tarot is own teacher but first we have to be shown to understand its special language, to listen to that which can't be heard but by the inner ear . to learn as much as we can and say to the tarot "i have reached my plateu , speak to me so i can improve myself better , to read better, to understand myself better, and those i know and love " p.s. there may be no tarot gods,,or tarot angels, or tarot guides (yet since tarot been around for so many years there has to be some evolved souls who read it before in their past lives and now serve the tarot movement of wisdom in their noncorpeal existence ) i would say . when i said speak to me tarot,, i am asking the tarot archtypes to speak for me who will step down the creator message for in true it is the creator who speaks to us through the tarot(and dice and planets, numbers, wind, dreams and so forth )

magpie9	07 Dec 2004
HOLMES wrote: ....for in true it is the creator who speaks to us through the tarot(and dice and planets, numbers, wind, dreams and so forth ) Very wise, Holmes. Rachelll Pollack said it too, in" Forest of Souls". I can't quite seem to find the exact quote, but it was something like this: "In the space between the cards, God speaks." She also speakes of the cards as a musical instrament: (pg39) "...We approach it wit a spirit of play, with an openess to the wonder we might draw from it. We know that we need to practice, whether our goal is knowledge, meditation, or readings, and the more we practice the better we get, though there always will be masters who can dazzle us with their ability to play and intepret it." I think that each deck we work with teaches us the subulties of it's song, and eventually, we find ourselves easily, redily, fluently making very beautiful music with the tarot. '

Fudugazi	07 Dec 2004
smleite wrote: In this special relationship, the lessons it offers may go beyond mere flute playing. The instrument can also teach you lessons about learning, about life, about love —because the same laws that govern the playing of a flute also govern the workings of the world around you and the world within you. In this way, the flute can become a focal point for the growth of understanding, a pathway to wisdom. Hermann Hesse, in his book Siddhartha, tells us that a person can eventually come to understand the entire universe by starting from any point within it—a butterfly, a rock, a river. The flute is one such point of departure.” Silvia A beautiful analogy. I don't know about the flute, but the learning is not always comfortable: often the tarot teaches us "about learning, about life, about love" by breaking us open. Its almost impossible to study the tarot for any length of time without, at some point (and often several points) reaching a crisis because the tarot has shone a light on something that had been there, and maybe inhibited, or stuck for a long time, or soemthing we con't want to see. It teaches us more honesty with others and ourselves. And strangely it also teaches us to take things more lightly, because there is enough heaviness in the world. Tarot teaches not only itself, but also how to live with all our fears, all our contradictions, all our loves and all the songs in our heart, and to take responsibility for all of them.

rabble	07 Dec 2004
goodness me, we get heated up, don't we! I read the beginning of this thread the other day, and enjoyed it, thinking I'd come back later and post in it. I play recorder. It's not a childrens toy. It's a beautiful baroque instrument, capable of making beautiful beautiful music. I was taught how to play. The teaching made the difference between it sounding like a childrens toy, and the instrument that it is. I play the clarinet too. (Haven't touched it for years, though.) Until I had my first lesson I couldn't even get the thing to screech, let alone to sound like music. I haven't been taught tarot. I don't play it yet. It still screeches at me, and I have to look to the book for help. But the tarot I learn the most from isn't even complete - it's the one I'm creating. I've learned so much more by learning to play by myself that I've ever learned with someone elses instrument, that it's quite amazing. It doesn't belong in any orchestra. Some might consider it to be like the recorder. The same could be said of any deck though, and any player. Have you ever heard a recorder *really* played? [edit: this is my 666 post! maybe i should post another, quickly! :) ]

Fulgour	07 Dec 2004
rabble wrote: [edit: this is my 666 post! maybe i should post another, quickly! :) ] rabble the world is a canvas. go create. :laugh: Join Date: 08 Dec 2003 Location: at home with my cats, dogs, birds, trees, breezes, sunshine, and water. Posts: 666

firemaiden	07 Dec 2004
As a classical musician... I can assure you, music as we know it would be lost for all eternity, without human teachers to pass down the tradition. What will emerge when the martians come to our lost civilisation (Y vont être content, les martiens!!!!!) and pick up that bizarre woman-shaped box once called "cello" - will be something all right. But what will Bleep-Bleep the Martian do with it without a teacher? He may bang on it. If we are lucky, he wont smash it. At first he may use it for storage. Perhaps it will reflect his face in the varnished surface and scare him. After about six months he may discover the cool twanging sounds he can make (out of tune, because he won't have any idea how to tune it, but then tuning will be irrelevant) by plucking the strings. Sixteen Martian generations later, the bow may be reinvented (though God knows where they will find horsehair). By then the gut strings will have disintegrated too, but perhaps they will have been inspired to construct new bows and strings out of martian guts and hair. (Do martians have hair?) Having never heard an orchestra play, their martian ears will be unprejudiced - they will invent something entirely from scratch. The sound of Western Civilization's classical music as it evolved over millenia will most likely never be reinvented. Just as - should the same zap of lightening hit the same primoridal DNA soup, the likelihood of human-like creatures evolving therefrom in exactly the same way, is just about nil. Will the cello teach the martian how to play the cello????? Yes? and No. He will discover something all by himself. He will invent an entirely new music. I am very keen to hear what it will sound like. Bleep-bleep, having never heard what I have-- oh my God, you cannot even imagine how glorious - those students at the conservatory in Berlin, pouring their hearts out in a Mahler symphony, bringing the Gods weeping to their knees -- ...no... Bleep-bleep will create something different. But it will be something. It will be his own. What does all this have to do with tarot? Nothing. Is tarot a musical instrument? Is the art of reading tarot something which has been passed down and developed by students practicing 18 hours a day in practice rooms? filling concert halls and competitions... I think not. The comparison is not apt. The tarot is something we read. Can you read a book without practising 18 hours a day? I think so. Well...it took us a long time to decipher the hieroglyphics, and thousands of years to invent writing... and it will take the martians a long time to decipher our language. But tarot cards have pictures, the language is universal. I think they will get it.

Fudugazi	07 Dec 2004
firemaiden wrote: What will emerge when the martians come to our lost civilisation (Y vont être content, les martiens!!!!!) and pick up that bizarre woman-shaped box once called "cello" - will be something all right. Bleep-bleep, having never heard what I have-- oh my God, you cannot even imagine how glorious - those students at the conservatory in Berlin, pouring their hearts out in a Mahler symphony, bringing the Gods weeping to their knees -- ...no... Bleep-bleep will create something different. But it will be something. It will be his own. In all likelihood, if they make it to our planet in their own craft they will also have their own musical tradition. Mahl-bleep-er is their greatest 45th century composer and he wrote an unforgettable piece called the Earth Symphony, for a little known instrument found on a cold blue planet. His father, Major Bleep, commanded the spaceship that brought back the instrument ("a female-human-shape, let's call it Molly", he said to his little boy). Mahl-Bleep spent much of his childhood figuring out how to play Molly, from his knowledge and study of his own Martian instruments (Bob and Sally being his favourite). Eventually he became the undisputed master of Molly, a great composer, and passed on the art to grateful Martian students, who practices on her through the long Martian nights (about 8 hours). And yes, the Earth Concerto was his very own ;) firemaiden wrote: Is tarot a musical instrument? Is the art of reading tarot something which has been passed down and developed by students practicing 18 hours a day in practice rooms? filling concert halls and competitions... I think not. The comparison is not apt. Well, some readers practice and practice, meditate, study and research, invent new decks, go back to old ones - and post on Tarot fora. And some just toss a few cards now and then. It's the difference between the guy who plays the fiddle at his uncle Bill's retirement party, and Itzhak Perlman. firemaiden wrote: But tarot cards have pictures, the language is universal. I think they will get it. That I agree. Although they might also have trouble with the Hierophant (Pope) ;)

TemperanceAngel	07 Dec 2004
Sometimes my tarot sounds like a cello, sometimes like a fiddle, sometimes like drums, sometimes like electric guitar, some like the flute and sometimes there's no sound at all. Hey I've got a whole band going on there :)

Rusty Neon	07 Dec 2004
TemperanceAngel wrote: Sometimes my tarot sounds like a cello, sometimes like a fiddle, sometimes like drums, sometimes like electric guitar, some like the flute and sometimes there's no sound at all. Hey I've got a whole band going on there :) With the flute (minus the fiddle) it sounds like Jethro Tull's band. :) Or maybe there was a fiddler with them sometimes?

TemperanceAngel	09 Dec 2004
Thank you moddies for bringing back this lovely thread and also to all the hard work you do, I am sure it ain't always easy :)

Rusty Neon	09 Dec 2004
jmd wrote: the instrument is its own teacher - therefore wisely choose. I don't think that it can be objectively said that any person has or has not made a wise decision when it comes to choosing a tarot deck or an approach to use or interpretation of Tarot. A person is free to decide as he thinks best in the circumstances at the given time. See Lee's wonderful thread "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations": http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=32765

magpie9	09 Dec 2004
A Very Good Solution, Moderators----Worthy of Soloman the Great. Thank you for all the hard work this must have involved. ((((((((moddies)))))))))))

Fudugazi	09 Dec 2004
Rusty Neon wrote: I don't think that it can be objectively said that any person has or has not made a wise decision when it comes to choosing a tarot deck or an approach to use or interpretation of Tarot. A person is free to decide as he thinks best in the circumstances at the given time. Ah, ths reminds me of the thread about the blank cards, unpon which everything can be projected. Wisdom, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, especially beholders who look in a mirror ;) There does seem to be some consensus over some decks (hey, I know I'm not uniquely wise and beautiful in having chosen the Prague, and a good thing too, for baba-prague :) ). But as you say, we all have our little marottes, moving needs. Some musicians like to play many different instruments, from the cello to the mouth organ. Others only ever play the piano. I'm sure there are people out there who make their home-mad decks, for their own use, just as our long ago ancestors picked reeds from the river banks, and made flutes out of them.

Diana	09 Dec 2004
Rusty Neon wrote: I don't think that it can be objectively said that any person has or has not made a wise decision when it comes to choosing a tarot deck or an approach to use or interpretation of Tarot. A person is free to decide as he thinks best in the circumstances at the given time. This is quite true. It is important to choose our teachers wisely, according to our own particular needs. There's no point in choosing a Spanish teacher if one wishes to learn Russian. I am a bit puzzled though as to why you chose the particular quote you did from the original post in this thread, to illustrate what you said. (The quote is: "The instrument is its own teacher, therefore choose wisely." This is extremely sound advice and extremely thought-provoking, but where does it imply that "any person has or has not made a wise decision when it comes to choosing a tarot deck or an approach to use an interpretation of Tarot.") I see nothing in your quote that implies that anyone has chosen wrong. I see only a wonderful piece of advice that I would gladly give to my son concerning ALL fields of life. (And I think I will....)

Rusty Neon	09 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: I am a bit puzzled though as to why you chose the particular quote you did from the original post in this thread, to illustrate what you said. (The quote is: "The instrument is its own teacher, therefore choose wisely." This is extremely sound advice and extremely thought-provoking, but where does it imply that "any person has or has not made a wise decision when it comes to choosing a tarot deck or an approach to use an interpretation of Tarot.") I see nothing in your quote that implies that anyone has chosen wrong. I see only a wonderful piece of advice that I would gladly give to my son concerning ALL fields of life. (And I think I will....) Well, this thread is on the Talking Tarot board. :)

jmd	09 Dec 2004
I see that some have taken my original comment in one particular way of reading it: to imply that there can only be one teacher. My point was rather multifold. In one sense, as implied by Diana - that by all means choose the correct teacher for that which one wants to learn (a Spanish teacher to learn Spanish, not Russian); in another, that the mere instrument itself, as teacher, will progressively unveil its own being - if one lives with a Spanish teacher, some spanish will be picked up, but no Russian (unless of course s/he is also Russian). The instrument of the deck in hand will reveal different forms, different correlations, and signpost differing directions... whence come you, and wither directing your course?

shelikes2read	10 Dec 2004
Yay, this thread's back. I can subscribe to it again. :) Good, because I wanted to respond with yet another reason why different people gravitate toward different decks. Personal preference can account for some reasons why one particular deck will appeal to person A, while person B prefers something entirely different. That's logical, considering that not everyone likes the same kinds of music, food, etc. And each of us has our own particular, unique, combination of talents. Decks that bring out those talents in the best way might be the ones we feel the most strongly connected to. But if different decks also have different things to say, then maybe their appeal is partly based on what we, personally, need or want to learn the most. I've seen a few quotes in sig files from my favorite book: Illusions: the Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach. There's an important point in that story where Donald Shimoda, the one who has been mentoring Richard (the narrator), discovers the bit of knowledge that he believes he came to this life to learn. He excitedly shares this info with Richard, only to be disappointed when Richard tells him, "That's obvious, Don". In other words... even though Donald had already come to know a TON of things that he was teaching Richard, that one particular bit of info that was new to Donald was NOT new to Richard. Richard already knew it. And I think that's another reason that particular decks appeal to different people. We're all at different places inasmuch as what we've learned already, what we would like to learn, etc. And if a particular deck will provide a good resource for us to learn something we need or want to learn, then we'll gravitate toward it. Whereas someone else might feel a connection with an entirely different deck, thanks to where THEY are at any given moment on their path to learning what they need to know. It's just a thought. :)

Rusty Neon	12 Dec 2004
Question: What do you call a tarot deck that is brutally honest? Answer: A blunt instrument :)

mzoltarp	12 Dec 2004
As a semi-professional photographer, I like this analogy. I took many photography classes and I am not sure that they made me a good photographer. I remember being immersed in the zone system and taking light readings off of 18% grey cards after having composed the scene to technical perfection to take one picture. The message was that photography was a technical body of skills and laws that if mastered one would be the next Edward Weston. While that technical training was useful, developing intuition has served me far more. The camera as an instrument became its own teacher. Thousands of rolls of film later I am reasonably good. As a newbie to tarot I am studying the technical side, but I am equally developing my intuition. RW was my first deck and I still love it. Mythic was my second and I find myself drawn to it. I then threw on Regina Victoria, the Comparative Tarot, and Tarot of the New Vision (I think / RW as seen from behind). I jump back and forth between decks as I am drawn to them as opposed to the technical rule of learning one deck very well and then moving on. The photography metaphor is especially valid for me because I am tremendously visual/intuitive.

The The instrument is its own teacher thread was originally posted on 03 Dec 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.