Understanding and exploring dynamics within the Global Tarot Community

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 09 Dec 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Anna	09 Dec 2004
Necessary preamble: Before I write anything, I must say that I am not writing this our of anger or hurt. I'm not trying to start an argument. This thread is not about accusations, or name calling, or confrontation. Those things are not productive and do not reflect what I feel in my heart as I begin to carefully choose the words I will use. What I have to offer is given in the spirit of friendship, of building bridges and of healing rifts. I also think its important to say that I'm not stating things as facts here, I am talking about how things seem and feel to me and other people will experience what I am talking about quite differently I imagine. I am writing simply with the hope of understanding a dynamic I am experiencing more and more frequently in both my wanderings through the forums, and also, as I immerse myself ever more in the Global Community of Tarot. This is why I chose "talking tarot" for my thread. Its a thread that I hope will be about uncovering and exploring dynamics within the Tarot Community. Anyway, here is my thread..... What I wanted to explore and understand is simply this: when I talk about my love and passion and enthusiasm for the Tarot of Marseilles here on the forums, and also within the wider tarot community, it is not always received very well. It feels to me as though there is a sharp intake of breath, a "bristling" that occurs when I speak this way. People seem to become defensive and angry. Harsh words are spoken. Even within the small group of us that share a love of the Tarot of Marseilles there is "bristling" and disagreement and harsh words. I noticed this when I first joined the forums and wondered about it. But as I become more and more vocal on the subject, I am experiencing it for myself increasingly. It seems to me as though the Tarot Community is becoming increasingly polarized about this issue, and that saddens me. There are two rifts that I frequently observe: one dividing the group of us that share an interest in the Tarot of Marseilles from the rest of the Tarot Community, the other dividing the group of us that share an interest in the Tarot of Marseilles itself. But I just don't understand why that is, why these rifts exist and are perpetuated, and that is what I am hoping to find out about within this thread. Is it the Tarot of Marseilles itself that is at the root of it? I don't believe this to be the case myself, but it might seem that way to others, and I would welcome and be interested to hear thoughts about this question. Is it something about those of us who use the Tarot of Marseilles that creates this uncomfortable dynamic within our community? Is it something in what I do and say that leads to this reaction? I hope you will be honest with me if this is the case. I do appreciate that when I describe the Tarot of Marseilles as the essence of Tarot itself, or Tarot in its most undiluted form, these are quite challenging and provocative things to say. They are just the views that I have come to hold through working with the Marseilles decks. I am not trying to force anyone else to believe as I do. (Heaven forbid!!) I'll be honest here. I'm a passionate person, maybe too passionate sometimes. When I find something I love and feel enthused about, I want to share it with the whole world! I've always been this way. I've been told many times by Friends with looks of frustration on their faces, "Anna, will you shut up about (insert topic I'm enthused about here!) for 5 minutes!!!!!" Perhaps I do not always convey my respect for the different views that other people hold as clearly and carefully as I might. If this has been the case, I do apologize. Its something I can try to change from now on. I am taking a risk in posting this. I have tried to be very honest and unguarded in what I've written, and that is always a risk. But I value this community so much, I am proud to be a member of it!! To me, the risk is worth it. Can we begin to explore and heal the rifts that divide us? Sincerely, and also Respectfully, Anna

baba-prague	09 Dec 2004
Personally, I also wish that this polarisation would stop happening (sorry, what an awkward sentence - maybe reflects the fact I am trying to be careful how I express this). It is disheartening sometimes to be told that ANY deck is the "true deck" - I mean, we are putting a huge amount of time and effort into designing decks - decks in which we take the fact that they will be used for readings very seriously (we don't do "art" decks) - and it's not great to be told that it isn't tarot because we broadly follow RWS. You can hear my irritation probably! However, that's just a personal reaction - but one I want to state honestly. I will say that I don't get annoyed with the people who say this - only with their statements, and only at times. In other words, I don't think a disagreement about approaches and beliefs in this area should undermine friendships or good relations on another level. I CAN appreciate the historical arguments of course - RWS is still not quite 100 years old. On the other hand, tarot did take many forms in the past - for example, what about the Minchiate? Is that also to be dismissed? Surely not? So generally, I'd be much happier if we would all accept that on a PERSONAL level we all relate to different decks in different ways, without trying to evangelise too much about our own preferences. I've never been very keen on anyone telling me what I should believe! I will say here that the deck we are working on with Rachel Pollack is TOTALLY unlike any conventional tarot or oracle. It is bound to offend and disturb some people for this reason. However, I am certain now that it will be a powerful deck (one reason we are finding it so hard to produce - it is a really strong piece to try to work with) and will exist in its own right, regardless of history or tradition. We need to make room for such new ideas and approaches - the world changes and even tarot changes with it ;-) I think that when new ideas are informed by knowledge, then we should be open to them. Anyway, yes, let's build some bridges here please :-)

Major Tom	09 Dec 2004
*pulls up a soapbox and stands on it clearing my throat* I wish to remind everyone that I speak as an individual. Even though I carry a Moderator label next to my name, what I have to say carries no more weight than anyone else's. I have a new mantra for the community. I want Everyone to take a few deep breaths, and repeat loudly after me: "There is room for everyone here - even me" Keep repeating it until you believe it - because that's what we're building here as a community. *steps down from soapbox and drags it away*

Fudugazi	09 Dec 2004
CharmingPixie wrote: I do appreciate that when I describe the Tarot of Marseilles as the essence of Tarot itself, or Tarot in its most undiluted form, these are quite challenging and provocative things to say. They are just the views that I have come to hold through working with the Marseilles decks. I am not trying to force anyone else to believe as I do. (Heaven forbid!!) I'll be honest here. I'm a passionate person, maybe too passionate sometimes. When I find something I love and feel enthused about, I want to share it with the whole world! I've always been this way. I've been told many times by Friends with looks of frustration on their faces, "Anna, will you shut up about (insert topic I'm enthused about here!) for 5 minutes!!!!!" I love that passion. Community without passion would be a cold place indeed. If passion is allied with respect, then what is the problem? I've not seen anything of yours that falls below that threshold. I understand Baba-prague's argument. Yes, tarot changes, like all things human. But some people like the old things because they consider them to be closer to their view of the world. That's not a rejection of anyone creating a deck now - I would personally send lots of sharp swords to anyone who demeaned your Prague deck, baba-prague. This whole thing reminds me of an old literary quarrel that took place in France in the early 19th century (and is actually recurrent since the Renaissance), between the "Ancients" - those who thought the classics were the only great literature and their way the only way of writing, and the Moderns - the Romantics, who were, well, Modern in 1820, and wanted to sweep the old things away. That quarrel was never settled, of course, because you can't settle it. People come to literature and to tarot for different reasons and with different needs. Some will need more fixed meanings and pictures (Rider Waite), some more occult fantasy and airiness (Thoth), some more tradition, fluidity and space for imagination (Marseille). And the many (like myself) will look for different things at different times. There are decks, like works of literature, that are intrinscally superior because of the quality of their artwork, their breadth of imagination, etc. (that's why there is a star system in the Deck section). But to fix which is superior between the Marseille, the Minchiate, the Rider Waite, the Thoth, and the Oracles, is just another quarrel between Ancient and Moderns.

smleite	09 Dec 2004
Oh my. This thread has just begun, and it has already helped me to understand this whole issue a bit better. Thank you, CP. I am a Marseilles lover. Being “in love” with the Marseilles tradition, I can very well understand it being spoken about with passion. So, passion (for Marseilles decks or ANY OTHER deck) is not an issue, for me. But: For me, to say “Marseilles tradition” is NOT the same as saying “Tarot”. I don’t pretend to have a very clear notion of what Tarot is, but I know it is inclusive, not exclusive, and that it certainly doesn’t resume itself to one of its traditions. In fact, I see Marseilles tradition as something (huge) that came to light at a certain point of Tarot’s history (this is a basic statement, but maybe not as redundant as that). Since Tarot’s history is not History, if you get what I mean, it continues to develop into our days. When I refer to Marseilles, I don’t refer to a deck, but – as said – to a whole tradition. So, I personally could never say, “this is the true deck”; I could, at the most, say, “this is the true tradition” (but I don’t). With this, I intend to say that, from my viewpoint, there is no “true deck”, not even inside a certain tradition. I don’t think there is a true deck inside Marseilles, for instance. Nor even a reference deck or couple of decks, in fact (and I know here I might be pretty alone) – thought I obviously see there are decks that have accomplished the vital task of bringing the essence of Marseilles to our days, of course. Thank God. My passion for Marseilles is indeed personal, and is not based upon the antiquity of this Tarot tradition; if it were, than this passion would have been built on an erroneous conception, since Marseilles decks are not the oldest ones, as we know. I have simply chosen a tradition that fulfills my very own need to contact “directly” with what I consider to be an excellent selection of archetypes, feeling free to engage in a personal dialogue with them, without the guidelines of attributed meanings to be followed. I like to practice free-falling, if you prefer… And, since I am not entirely narrow-minded, of course I understand that many, many times you are also alone, with only your most intimate resources, your sincerity and your faith (sorry for the word) before a RWS-inspired deck, allowing whatever comes from it to strike you. This said, and for the sake of honesty, I must also confess I adore the aesthetic aspects of Marseilles decks. I find them almost perfect, in their synthetic simplicity. But if we are to talk about the harmony between the concepts and the looks (not just “Art” decks, as Baba says) them there are probably some dozens of decks I would have to put first, decks that are both serious and beautiful. I never thought that near-to-perfect readings couldn’t be done with ANY deck. I never thought that good, accurate, or simply mind-opening readings could only be done with a Marseilles deck. If someone did that, he just couldn’t be taken seriously, mostly in a global community as ATF is. This idea doesn’t even deserve a second thought. I think Tarot is much bigger than all this. Silvia

Fulgour	09 Dec 2004
If this were a Sports Forum there would be 3 types of involved & sincere participants: Owners Players Fans We all start out as Fans but some will soon aspire to become Players and some few, actual Owners. Others just fade away. And what really is then left for the Fans, but the game itself.

contrascarpe	09 Dec 2004
Sigh ..... I promised myself not to butt in on this conversation. First, I personally have nothing against the Tarot of Marseilles. In fact, I hold it dear in my heart for three reasons - my Francophile background, my love of all things historical and finally, because the Grimaud was the second deck I purchased (and did so in a cute little shop on the Right Bank in Paris several years ago). However, even though I love the ToM, I have not yet decided to seriously study it. My Tarot studies so far have concentrated on using Tarot (and by that I mean ALL forms of decks) to find both personal enlightenment and for use as a form of divination in general to hopefully help others. Someday I will seriously study the ToM, but I am not quite ready to move there yet. That being said, this is MY perception of why there is a rift. I have been a member of ATF for a little over a year. Early on there was a "feeling" (again, this is my perception) that whenever I read a post where someone either mentions anything negative about the ToM or expresses their non-understanding of it, a general disdain and exasperation eminates from some of the staunch supporters. I am not sure why this happens - part of me feels like there is a sense of an elitist attitude ..... part of me believes that there a need for some to be defensive and protecting their love of the deck. Quite frankly, even the little gesture of seperating the Let's Marseille section into a subforum has a aura of elitism in my view. Again, I am not attacking the ToM or anyone in particular. I don't think anyone was attacking you personally in any of threads, CharmingPixie. Nor do I believe that there are many, if any, that truly detest the ToM. I do believe, however, that many are getting tired of being told that their favorite deck is insignificant because it hasn't been around for hundreds of years. With that off my chest, I slink back into my self-imposed hibernation. I hope the Let's Marseilles is successful and I look forward to using it as a valuable resource when I finally decide to study it. I think it is in good hands with your leadership - just make sure everybody has a chance to have their voices heard. Dan

Major Tom	09 Dec 2004
Fulgour wrote: We all start out as Fans but some will soon aspire to become Players and some few, actual Owners. Very apt analogy. :) I would like to point out there's only one owner in this community and that is Solandia. :) A wonderful owner indeed. Anyone can play. ;) Isn't it remarkable the fans always know who the players are? :laugh:

Fulgour	09 Dec 2004
Major Tom wrote: I would like to point out there's only one owner in this community and that is Solandia. :) A wonderful owner indeed. Do please take note also, of my use of the words: involved & sincere

ros	09 Dec 2004
All the comments of the Tarot of Marseilles have turned me away from learning it. I feel like the energy here is too overwhelming for me. I wouldn't even know where to start. I'm just a fan of the Tarot of Marseilles for now. The entertainment is great!

Alta	09 Dec 2004
but I feel that I have to lock the thread to give us time to think about this. I also wonder why we are starting and participating in these same threads over and over. It just seems to alienate people. yes, I know locking threads also causes problems, but I have seen three threads go rapidly downhill over this exact topic within days now.

Alta	09 Dec 2004
Solandia has suggested that we keep it closed. The discussions do not seem to be progressing, but continuously re-stating positions.

The Understanding and exploring dynamics within the Global Tarot Community thread was originally posted on 09 Dec 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.