A Pain In The Box
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 15 Jan 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| Centaur |
15 Jan 2005 |
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Just popped in to two separate Borders' stores to look for a copy of the Bruegel Tarot. I was in luck!
Until I looked at the deck boxes; bashed and rather grubby looking. Also both had slightly ripped wrapping around the deck. Ugh. So... I have returned from my shopping trip deckless, and wondering if I will ever find a non-bashed up, non man-handled Bruegel. :(
Anyway... don't you just hate it when this kind of stuff happens?!
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| Fulgour |
15 Jan 2005 |
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It could be a blessing in disguise. The so-called Bruegel
isn't what I'd consider a desirable aquisition. It's awful.
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| stella01904 |
15 Jan 2005 |
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MM ~ If I'd really wanted the deck, I'd have gotten it anyway. I'd have gotten the store manager to knock a couple of bucks off, too. Deck boxes seem to disintegrate rapidly. Early on I learned this, and now I have bags and wooden boxes for my decks. If you want to preserve a nice deck box, flatten it immediately and put it away someplace. I made the mistake of leaving the box on my Grimaud Marseilles and in a few months I had duct - taped the lid on, now the whole thing has turned to mush. The cards are fine and are living in a wonderful old cigar humidor - but the deck is out of print and from what I gather, Grimaud is belly up (after a couple hundred years). That's one box I wish I'd saved, but other than that, who needs 'em. BB, Stella
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| Centaur |
15 Jan 2005 |
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It could be a blessing in disguise. The so-called Bruegel
isn't what I'd consider a desirable aquisition. It's awful.
Good point. I never thought of that actually. Haha.
Stella, I agree that it would have been an idea to have asked the bookseller to knock a few pounds from the selling price. But, both copies of the deck were in Borders... and trying to barter with Borders is like trying to beat your head continuously against a brick-wall. I was just disappointed because if I am going to spend money, then I want it to be as near to perfect as possible... not grubby, and tatty looking. Ew.
:D
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| lark |
15 Jan 2005 |
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Just popped in to two separate Borders' stores to look for a copy of the Bruegel Tarot. I was in luck!
Until I looked at the deck boxes; bashed and rather grubby looking. Also both had slightly ripped wrapping around the deck. Ugh. So... I have returned from my shopping trip deckless, and wondering if I will ever find a non-bashed up, non man-handled Bruegel. :(
Anyway... don't you just hate it when this kind of stuff happens?!
Ya! I hate it when that happens. :D
And the thing about Borders is they won't bargain with you, but two weeks later you'll find that same bashed up Bruegel in the clearance bin for $5.00!
But I think Fulgor is right, it is a blessing in disguise.
The Bruegel isn't very good.
And I just read in another thread that you went out and picked up the Gilded intead so you definetly got the better deal there!
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| Fudugazi |
15 Jan 2005 |
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MM ~ If I'd really wanted the deck, I'd have gotten it anyway. I'd have gotten the store manager to knock a couple of bucks off, too. Deck boxes seem to disintegrate rapidly. Early on I learned this, and now I have bags and wooden boxes for my decks. If you want to preserve a nice deck box, flatten it immediately and put it away someplace. I made the mistake of leaving the box on my Grimaud Marseilles and in a few months I had duct - taped the lid on, now the whole thing has turned to mush. The cards are fine and are living in a wonderful old cigar humidor - but the deck is out of print and from what I gather, Grimaud is belly up (after a couple hundred years). That's one box I wish I'd saved, but other than that, who needs 'em. BB, Stella
I can't imagine it to be out of print - it's a bestseller in France and French-speaking countries. I find it in many shops here (for those of you who might need a copy)
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| Centaur |
15 Jan 2005 |
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And the thing about Borders is they won't bargain with you, but two weeks later you'll find that same bashed up Bruegel in the clearance bin for $5.00!
I will just have to keep my eye on that clearance bin! :D
I do not know what it is... but something keeps drawing me to the Bruegel. I know that it is not the nicest of decks, but there is something... cannot quite put my finger on it.
Argh!
Yes though... I am pleased with the Gilded. I have wanted it for AGES!
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| RedMaple |
15 Jan 2005 |
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What is so awful about the Brueghel? I was considering it. Do you not like Brueghel's art? Do the images not match up with the meanings? Just curious.
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| MeeWah |
15 Jan 2005 |
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It could be a blessing in disguise. The so-called Bruegel
isn't what I'd consider a desirable aquisition. It's awful.
Fulgour: Not familiar with the Bruegel, but interested in why the description of "awful".
Thanks!
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| Kissa |
15 Jan 2005 |
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What is so awful about the Brueghel? I was considering it. Do you not like Brueghel's art? Do the images not match up with the meanings? Just curious.
my guess is : culture, culture...
There is more in Tarot than artwork. There is more in artwork than being pleasant to the eye.
Kissa
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| lark |
15 Jan 2005 |
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What is so awful about the Brueghel? I was considering it. Do you not like Brueghel's art? Do the images not match up with the meanings? Just curious.
Well, I said it wasn't very good.
So in all fairness I should say what I didn't like about it.
I like Bruegel's art.
But as you say the pictures don't match up to the card meanings many times.
The LWB has fables and sometimes those didn't make sense with what you were seeing in the picture either.
I think it is a great art deck for a collector.
Or has some people have done with the Animal Lords deck, you just throw all preconcieved meaning out the window and go with your observations of the picture and your intuition.
The cards are rich with activity.
That can be a good or bad thing depending.
Sometimes I found that the cards being so full was distracting.
But this is just my observation.
If you feel drawn to the deck then for sure give it a try.
That is the beauty of having so many different tarot decks to chose from there is something for everyone.
My point for Centaur was that sometimes things happen for a reason to point us in another direction.
And since he got the beautiful Gilded later that day it seemed the universe wanted him to have that deck today instead.
But watch that bargain bin Centaur! :)
I feel you will get your Bruegel yet.
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| Haunted |
15 Jan 2005 |
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I've been pining for the Bruegel deck for some time now, but haven't got around to buying it from my favourite seller (who has a pristine box awaiting). From what I've seen of it, it will be a challenge to read with. A similar dilemma exists with the Bosch deck, especially with so many puzzling minor cards. That said, I really enjoy working with my Bosch deck as I love the imagery. Certainly, if you love Bruegel, the tarot deck will make a fascinating collectors deck, if not a practical reading deck. Good luck with your search!
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| firemaiden |
15 Jan 2005 |
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Well, well, well, I thought it was a pretty good homage to the artist, and I've found it fun to read with. This and the Animal Lords have given some wonderful readings. But then again, I don't use traditional meanings, I draw my inspiration from the artwork, and call it "image readings' . I find the artwork delightful... oh well, you win some, you lose some. LOL
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| Fulgour |
15 Jan 2005 |
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I am pleased to hear you are happy with the pictures,
and agree ~ the Animal Lords is an inspired creation.
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| BlueLotus |
15 Jan 2005 |
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I love(d) the artwork of this deck and that is one reason why I aquired it. I was not disappointed. It's a lovely deck and the images are very attractive and lively.
Although I admit that it is hard to learn the meanings per the booklet, I agree that one can learn their own meaning of the cards by staring and trying to distract meanings/ read them intuitively.
As for all artwroked images, it is always worth getting a copy of the deck if for that alone. I may add that the same goes for similar decks such as Bosch, Animal Lords, Haindl and a few others.
So, my point is that you won't regret aquiring it, and you can consult Alida's for this purpose .
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| Centaur |
16 Jan 2005 |
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Cerulean & Feebie: Thanks for the suggestions! Hopefully though, as Lark suggests, I will stumble upon it in the clearance bin at some point in the very near future. Haha. :}
Haunted: The Bosch is one of my favourites. Infact, I am sure (although, I could be wrong as my memory is not up to much!) that someone told me that if I liked the Bosch then I would like the Bruegel. The Bosch also does not use traditional imagery in some of the cards making it slightly more difficult to get a grasp of, but I have found it to be an excellent reading deck in the past!
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| Haunted |
16 Jan 2005 |
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I think it just comes down to personal taste. Bosch is weird and disturbing, but a tarot deck based on his art seems like a natural extension of it: a number of the images, such as the Hanged Man, are lifted right out of his paintings. Bruegel may seem inaccessible to some who are more comfortable with traditional imagery or uninteresting to who prefer the fantasy or quasi-mythical decks. Whenever I see someone criticizing a deck I like, I sometimes look at their profile and see we have opposite tastes!
I think in both cases the character of each card will only enrich the traditional interpretation. If the art speaks to you, the cards surely will too.
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| RedMaple |
16 Jan 2005 |
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Does anyone have the Durer? That's another one that appeals to me. I guess if you like the Low Renaissance art rather than the High Renaissance, these cards are very appealing. I like the emphasis in Breughel and Durer on the common people and everyday situations.
The Bosch is not exactly a favorite, but I do like it, and find it satirical, humorous, and accurate. I find it especially good when dealing with politics and institutions. LOL
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| Fulgour |
16 Jan 2005 |
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Bruegel, Bosch, and Durer may be equally and freely
enjoyed by means of a library card. The originals are
often surprising when viewed in a single big volume.
Ukiyoe inspired the images of Pamela Colman Smith,
and for Marseille lovers, there's a wealth of woodcuts.
Part of the fun is envisioning making your own Tarot.
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| Fudugazi |
16 Jan 2005 |
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There is more in Tarot than artwork. There is more in artwork than being pleasant to the eye.
Yes, but there are measures of quality in both.
That said, I've not seen the Bruegel tarot deck. I like Bruegel, the artist, however.
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| Haunted |
16 Jan 2005 |
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RedMaple, I'm also interested in the Tarot of Durer, but have seen only a handful of cards... Anyone know if there's a website with more images?
(I've got the Ship of Fools on my wishlist, too)
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| Fudugazi |
16 Jan 2005 |
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Ukiyoe inspired the images of Pamela Colman Smith,
and for Marseille lovers, there's a wealth of woodcuts.
Part of the fun is envisioning making your own Tarot.
Christy Brown drew better with his left foot than I can with my right hand - but I still fantasize sometimes, like just now when I was flicking through some plates of masque costumes by Inigo Jones (for Ben Jonson's masques), I thought - these would make a wonderful allegorical tarot...using Jones' stage scenery as the card scenery of course. And with some lines of Jonson sprinkled on the appropriate cards - here is my Magician:
"Melt Earth to Sea, Sea flow to Air,
And Air flie into Fire,
Whil'st we in Tunes, to Arthur's Chair
Bear Oberon's desire."
Call it "Masque Restor'd: A Tarot".
If no-one else does it (well!) I might, one day. I'll make sure the box is strong ;)
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| Kiama |
16 Jan 2005 |
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Well, I think I shall start a new movement... The Give Battered Decks a Home Movement!
Come on, these poor, battered, unloved decks are just sitting there on their shelves, their boxes all tattered and grubby, their lwb's missing... All they want is to be loved, shuffled, and given a good home. They are unique in their kind - they have something their brothers and sisters don't have! And can you imagine what it would be like to continually be required to be perfect all the time... flawless? Oh, these poor, oppressed decks!
Friends, it is our task, nay, our DUTY, our very life's purpose, to give these decks a home! To look beyond that superficial packaging, and accept them for what they are, tatters and all! Go on, pick up a battered deck in a second-hand store near you today!
(On the other hand, you could buy them in perfect condition, and thereby stand a much better chance of selling them off/trading them for a decent price later on. }) )
Blessings,
Kiama
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| tao51 |
17 Jan 2005 |
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People tend to try to see the deck before buying. I rarely buy my cards from a walk in retailer. I have but I usually want a particular deck which are unavailable in moste stores. I purchase mine from Tarot Garden.--Tao
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| NightWing |
17 Jan 2005 |
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I'm sorry to hear that there are those who dislike the Bruegel Tarot.
Certainly the pictures are complex and detailed to the point of overwhelming...at least initially. But they have a rough beauty and wonderful colouring that are all their own. This is a deck that for the most part, illustrates the lives of common people of the early renaissance. In turn, the pictures are said to bring to life certain proverbs and "common sense" sayings. I wonder if the absence of finely garbed aristocrats in ornate settings, and therefore the lack of a greater element of "fantasy", is a reason some are less able to relate to this deck?
What Dickens did for the working people in literature, the Bruegels had done for them earlier in painting.
The Bruegal Tarot is not an easy one to read with, and certainly not a tarot for beginners, but it is absolutely a deck for serious Tarot collectors!
I would have purchased the deck even with no box at all!
Amazon.ca might still have it, but certainly Tarot Garden does.
Cheers.
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| spoonbender |
17 Jan 2005 |
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The so-called Bruegel isn't what I'd consider a desirable aquisition. It's awful.
Fulgour, if you don't like a deck, it's best not to present it as a fact. I personally really like the Bruegel and would prefer it to the Gilded any day, because I think the art of the Gilded is rather kitschy and superficial. And that's just my opinion :).
So what if the Bruegel doesn't follow RWS-meanings? I think it's much better to try to open up to the images on the cards and to read in an intuitive way. The scenes on the cards are full of interesting little details and I'm sure one could discover new things every time. The cards I have studied have been very insightful and it's a fun exercise to interpret the symbols with an open mind.
And no, the art isn't "pretty"... meaning that there aren't fairies, unicorns and kittens on every card.
There was a study group for the Bruegel here on AT, but unfortunately I had to give it up because there wasn't enough interest :(.
Spoon
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| Fulgour |
17 Jan 2005 |
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Fulgour, if you don't like a deck, it's best not to present it as a fact.
I think the use of the words "I consider" were enough to qualify my "awful."
Besides which if you look you will see I have attempted to soften even that.
Literal-mindedness can be a wonderful gift and yours is developing nicely :)
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| SongDeva |
17 Jan 2005 |
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I think the Bruegel is great. I was surprised to hear people say it's awful.
Then again, what else is new around here? :D
It's very entertaining, and it doesn't take itself to seriously.
The colors are nice..muted yet not dead.
And it's just funny!!!
I say go for it Centaur. There was even a fledgling study group about it here for a while. Dig up some of the old threads on the deck even, those of you that are curious.
Edited to add: I posted and then discovered pages 2 and 3 of this thread. :)
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| WolfSpirit |
17 Jan 2005 |
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If I were a big fan of Bosch or Bruegel, I might buy a reproduction of one of their works, but not necessarily a tarot deck based on their work.
Their works are not meant for a tarot deck, and I think I get more out of deck that is made by an artist who made his works with this tarot deck in mind - so I know the symbolism used is put their deliberately.
I don't think I would want to use a Bruegel tarot, at best it would be a set of pretty pictures to me.
This is just how it is for me - others may have meaningful readings with this deck.
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| Centaur |
17 Jan 2005 |
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I think that it is all just a matter of personal taste. For some, the Bruegel would be a bad choice of deck... for others it would be great. For me, I am drawn to the deck in a strange way. In my opinion, I do not feel that it is that attractive visually... but there is just something about it that catches my eye. I find it very difficult to explain. I want it. And I shall have it. LOL. :D
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| tao51 |
17 Jan 2005 |
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Certain decks make certain connections. I love the Bruegal as well as the Bosch, Giotto, etc. The Bruegal has a feel of the countryside. It has humorous art work. I find the deck to be refreshing--Tao
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| Fudugazi |
17 Jan 2005 |
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If I were a big fan of Bosch or Bruegel, I might buy a reproduction of one of their works, but not necessarily a tarot deck based on their work.
Their works are not meant for a tarot deck, and I think I get more out of deck that is made by an artist who made his works with this tarot deck in mind
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the Bruegel Tarot deck was int he style of Bruegel, but it was not necessarily his work (or not exclusively) that was used.
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| Kissa |
17 Jan 2005 |
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Both the Giotto and the Bruegel decks are from italian artist Guido Zibordi Marchesi.
I just traded my Gilded and don't plan to buy the Bruegel deck. They both are love or hate aesthetically. Whereas the Gilded is purely a RWS clone, the Bruegel though, as many LoScarabeo decks, gives very unexpected meanings to some cards.
Come on, what's wrong with you ppl, can't you get a decent deck??? A Marseilles for example?! :D :D :D
Kissa
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| Haunted |
17 Jan 2005 |
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Bosch, Bruegel, and Durer decks are the tarot artists' interpretation of the aforementioned original artists. I'd like to point out that unicorns, dragons, cats, and gnomes (never mind Hello Kitty, anime, baseball) are no more suitable for tarot than Bruegel. Lol, guess I haven't found the threads condemning those.
I think, for most of us, finding a deck we enjoy looking at and that we can relate to is what's most important. Read 2 or 3 -- or 12! -- pages of the "cards you dislike" or "cards that will greet you in Hades" threads and you'll get the idea. While many of us are interested in the history and the more esoteric aspects, this is a hobby for most of us...lol Cut us some slack, won't ya? Cheers!
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| Fulgour |
17 Jan 2005 |
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It could be a blessing in disguise. The so-called Bruegel
isn't what I'd consider a desirable aquisition. It's awful. I am going to reverse myself on this and say that I would now
classify the Bruegel Tarot, not as awful (unfactual!) but lufwa.
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| WolfSpirit |
18 Jan 2005 |
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Bosch, Bruegel, and Durer decks are the tarot artists' interpretation of the aforementioned original artists. I'd like to point out that unicorns, dragons, cats, and gnomes (never mind Hello Kitty, anime, baseball) are no more suitable for tarot than Bruegel. Lol, guess I haven't found the threads condemning those.
I'm sorry I was wrong about the artists's works on the decks, I should have informed myself better. It's still not for me though, LOL.
By the way, there have been plenty of threads where people tell they don't like decks with unicorns, dragons, cats and gnomes. I think the subject has run dry ;) Condemning a deck is a big word though, different decks work for different people. All one give is his (her) own opinion.
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| Dark Inquisitor |
18 Jan 2005 |
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Condemning a deck is a big word though, different decks work for different people.
Cool idea for a new thread !! "Which decks would you CONDEMN ,and how would you EXECUTE them ??" And maybe torture them first..
I am all for condemning decks, if it will save just one person from bashing the brains out of another . People are very touchy in modern life. Better they should hate on inanimate objects than one another.
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| Haunted |
18 Jan 2005 |
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Condemning a deck is a big word though, different decks work for different people. All one give is his (her) own opinion.[/quote]
I chose that word to emphasize the absurd seriousness of the tone the thread was taking. This thread started with a lament for damaged tarot boxes. Thank you for restating my point about personal taste. ;)
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| leapylees |
14 Mar 2005 |
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This is really interesting. I'm a beginner and one of the first decks I was drawn to was the Bruegel deck though I didn't buy it straight away as I was put off by reports about it not being suitable for beginners. It was the fourth deck I acquired and I think it's great. I love the detailed pictures and find it far easier to read from than some other decks. I don't get on at all with the Rider-Waite artwork for example.
I guess it just comes down to personal taste.
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The A Pain In The Box thread was originally posted on 15 Jan 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.
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