Books for Umbrae's Bonfire~your contribution ?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 11 Jan 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

magpie9	11 Jan 2005
Sitting here thinking about Umbrae's ongoing Bonfire of Little White books, and it came to me that he just isn't getting a big enough bonfire to stay warm at, by limiting himself to just LWBs. So I have a few canidates for More Fuel: Anythng written on Tarot by Kissa Stephonovich the Big Fat Book that goes with the Wild Spirit Tarot All of R.J.Stewert's Tarot writing And.......Shy Virgin that I am, the Book of Thoth by Alister Crowley .................................magpie ducks and runs for the door, dodging rain of tomatoes, rotten eggs and other unmentionable missles......................... What are the books you'd give up to keep Umbrae warm?

Moongold	11 Jan 2005
Magpie ~ I can understand why people would want to burn LWB's but BOOKS ????? May I suggest you read Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 .....please :)

Rusty Neon	11 Jan 2005
:) Anything written by Kris Hadar except the article he wrote about Alain Bocher

lunalafey	11 Jan 2005
How To: Use Tarot Spreads by Silvia Abraham. Her other stuff might be good, but this particular book- it's lame. A color by numbers of the spread world.

Majecot	11 Jan 2005
shudders Fahrenheit 451 had a profound affect on me, I could not burn even a bad romance novel. *shrugs*

Rusty Neon	11 Jan 2005
Moongold wrote: Magpie ~ I can understand why people would want to burn LWB's but BOOKS ????? May I suggest you read Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 .....please :) In that case, even Little White Booklets are still books. I'd point out as well that Bradbury's book was about the forced burning of books by the dictates of persons in authority. Nobody here would ever suggest that persons in authority should have the right to make such dictates. This current thread is a fun thread; we're just pointing out books that we individually, in our personal views, find not to be of use to ourselves; for the purposes of this thread, any burning is figurative.

Dark Inquisitor	11 Jan 2005
I don't advocate burning anything, even symbolically . I say read everything, learn whatever you can that is of merit from it, and let the fools fall where they may next time , for it is meant to be.

Moongold	11 Jan 2005
Rusty Neon wrote: In that case, even Little White Booklets are still books. I'd point out as well that Bradbury's book was about the forced burning of books by the dictates of persons in authority. Nobody here would ever suggest that persons in authority should have the right to make such dictates. This current thread is a fun thread; we're just pointing out books that we individually, in our personal views, find not to be of use to ourselves; for the purposes of this thread, any burning is figurative. Yep - I understand that. And I don't want Magpie's thread to be sabotaged. I know she was speaking metaphorically but the idea of burning books always evokes a reaction in me. I was a librarian for many years. I wouldn't include LWB's in the definition of books. It's a big jump, in my view, from LWB's which are almost leaftlets or very brief summaries of books, to books themselves. Books could be very loosely defined as collections of ideas and the idea of burning them, even in fun, brings out the protector in me. :). I don't see LWB's in quite the same way but it isn't worth debating really. Hey Magpie - perhaps you could change your metaphor to garage sale or opportunity shop? I am being light hearted. :)

Red Emma	11 Jan 2005
Nobody, I say N-O-B-O-D-Y gets me to burn books!! Not ever, never, no way no how! Not even for my highly revered friend, Magpie9. As much as I realize how much Umbrae has contributed to the success of ATF, I still feel that his rants against LWB's are a bit contra-indicated. Who knows where the next nugget of knowledge will be found. No one, I say, NO ONE can ever dictate to another what they should read, or why they should read it. I vote we get Congress to pass an eleventh amendment to top off the first Ten --- And that amendment shall read, "On pain of death, no person shall ever burn LWB'S." About bad romance novels. I can't burn them either. I bury them at the bottom of the garbage can.

Umbrae	11 Jan 2005
I have never advocated the destruction of Books. I have advocated little pamphlets that pose as books. My rant against LWB’s (Posted oh so long ago) sums up my position. But never ever have I advocated destruction of books, literature, monographs, essays… But cheap little white books that pose as presenting factual information…another matter. The misleading information can in fact be dangerous. It is usually presented as: 1) Buy this deck. 2) Read this LWB. 3) Memorize the ‘meanings’ 4) Poof – you’re a reader! Now that you’re a reader you have license to go out and do real damage to real lives of people – even yourselves… I want to see a book that tells you that 30 years later you will still be a student. Burn them. Not because of what they say – but what they imply. Would you fly an airplane by reading a LWB? No. It sounds silly. But give a person a deck, a little knowledge and no wisdom and egocentric intellectualism…there is some real irresponsible behavior out there (and in here). Besides. it’s nice and warm here. Just for the record: Riccardo Minetti consistently writes good LWB’s.

jumptothemoonyea	11 Jan 2005
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_burning The writer Heinrich Heine famously said in 1821 "Where they burn books, they will end in burning human beings." our own little LWBuring CULTivation

inanna_tarot	11 Jan 2005
DONT BURN! Recycle :) Or at least use the back for shopping lists? :P I cant remember when i last looked in an LWB Sezo x

magpie9	11 Jan 2005
HEY!! WAIT A MINUTE!! You guys sound like I’m next for the bonfire! This is meant to be a light-hearted silly playful thread, not the return of the Third Reich! Burning is a metaphor for disposing of books you totally have no use for. This is not about anybody forcing anyone to do anything to any books. Not for me, Not for Umbrae, Not for anybody or anything. It Is A . I have never burned a book in my life, though I have torn up a few with my bare hands (GRRrrrr) and thrown quite a few in the trash, where I felt they belonged. The great majority of the books I don’t agree with, like, want, etc end up getting re-cycled at the used bookstore. I read Farenheight 451 as a child, and it had a profound effect on my forming consciousness. I grew up with books, respect for books, and more books. We didn’t even have a TV. My father was a writer. Do I l make myself clear? Now. Are you guys gonna be able to play nice, or do I have to change the title of this thread to: [font=papyrus] [size=3] [color=gold] “Tarot Books Suitable for Lining the Cat box With?”[/font][/size][/color]

inanna_tarot	11 Jan 2005
teehee, thinking of book pages in the cat litter tray :P I think its one of those moments when people misunderstand the tone of voice when reading text on a screen. The fact that it has drawn such a response though is a sign of our times, and how much we feel appalled at the lost of information. Its what governments do every day (and there was a lot of it before the New Year in the UK, allegedly) , offices, publishers etc - its called SHREDDING! Something satisfying in seeing something go through a shredder though... Or maybe I am just mad :P Its an idea though, a future suit of air - shredders LMAO Maybe the thread should be, what LWBs would you shred? :) I tend to just use them as coasters in my room, and they usually have tea split on them before that happens lol. Back to the point.. I second How to Read Tarot Spreads (USELESS!) The Thoth LWB, because theres just no point in even looking at it! Far too much knowledge and symbolism to even think about fitting it in an LWB. Ones I wouldnt burn/kitty litter/shred... Any that have a brief description. They often highlight something which I just didnt even notice before! But I wouldnt read them for the meanings. The Barbara Walker one was good for descriptions, and the Witches Tarot (Reed). Sezo x

SunChariot	11 Jan 2005
Tarot Awareness:Exploring the Spiritual Path. I can't remember the author. I don't know what it was with that book. I have never in my life reacted to a book like that. The minute I started to read it, if seemed "false". The further I read, the stronger a feeling I had that there was something "evil" in it. The feeling kept growing the further I read until I felt I couldn't keep it in the house with me. We live in an apartment and I took it right out to the garbage room. I did not have the nerve to put it down the chute, but it was gone a few hours later. They say spiritual tools always find their way into the hands of those who most need them. I hope it was able to help someone. It wasn't meant to be in my hands, that's for sure. Bar

firemaiden	11 Jan 2005
WAIT! hold your horses! Be careful what you line that kitty box with! What if she starts getting funny ideas? I know, because I used to line my birdcage with the the New York Times. And whaddya know? In just a few years, my little parakeet went from being a meek little tweety-bird, spitting up over the mirror, and ringing the bell all day long, to a... renegade fighter bomber. You heard me! Too much radical politics isn't good for pets. I don't know about burning books, but I am concerned about how we are going to keep Umbrae warm. I'm willing to contribute my book to the Wheel of Change Tarot. It weighs forty pounds and has a political agenda that sets my teeth on edge. P.S. Books were more sacred when you had to kill a lamb to get the parchment, raid a monastary to hire a monk-scribe 150 miles away, pluck a goose to make the quill, squish a squid to make the ink... Now any idiot can publish his inane thoughts with a click of a mouse...burn em, I say, burn em...

Nevada	11 Jan 2005
magpie9 wrote: And.......Shy Virgin that I am, the Book of Thoth by Alister Crowley I secretly agree with you. Don't tell anyone. ;) It sits on my shelf where I dutifully keep it with Tarot-related books. Now and then I am certain that I was simply a little dizzy the last time I tried to read it, and I open it again. I begin to feel woozy, and I put it away. I know many more fun ways to make myself dizzy, should I feel the need. Love the cards, though. Including the LWB. Nevada P.S. Moongold, I'm picturing those librarians in "Day After Tomorrow," tightly clutching the books they particularly didn't want burned. That's exactly what is needed here, someone to ensure we don't succumb to the heat of the moment and burn something we'll later regret.

magpie9	11 Jan 2005
firemaiden wrote: I'm willing to contribute my book to the Wheel of Change Tarot. It weighs forty pounds and has a political agenda that sets my teeth on edge. Perfect! I hate that one, too! what a shame trees had to die for it. It might be better if we don't teach our cats and birds to read............?

Umbrae	12 Jan 2005
BTW: I heat my house with wood heat. I do use paper as a tinder.

Fulgour	12 Jan 2005
The Encyclopedia of Tarot, Stuart R. Kaplan, Volume I The Encyclopedia of Tarot, Stuart R. Kaplan, Volume II The Encyclopedia of Tarot, Stuart R. Kaplan, Volume III and a threatened The Encyclopedia of Tarot, Stuart R. Kaplan, Volume IV Are these supposed to be useful in any way, or are they just legal inventory catalogues for tax record purposes? __________ Edited to add: though bought at a discount, my library does include the first three volumes, with room for IV.

Umbrae	12 Jan 2005
Fulgour wrote: The Encyclopedia of Tarot, Stuart R. Kaplan, Volume I The Encyclopedia of Tarot, Stuart R. Kaplan, Volume II The Encyclopedia of Tarot, Stuart R. Kaplan, Volume III and a threatened The Encyclopedia of Tarot, Stuart R. Kaplan, Volume IV Are these supposed to be useful in any way, or are they just legal inventory catalogues for tax record purposes? Gotta call you out on that one… You burn those – and it would be a capital offense. Your final sentence proclaims your ignorance of the subject matter at hand. It is called ‘Documentation’. If you had a hobby (like collecting...hmmm…how about Mustache Cups), you would understand the importance of documentation. Currently in the Tarot world there are only two Documentation sources (in print), The Encyclopedia of Tarot Vol 1-3 and Manteia. Your suggestion, and lack of awareness of the subject matter is appalling. Just because you don’t understand their purpose – does not mean that they should be incinerated. Dangerous opinion... Shame on you.

Dark Inquisitor	12 Jan 2005
Umbrae wrote: Gotta call you out on that one… You burn those – and it would be a capital offense. Your final sentence proclaims your ignorance of the subject matter at hand. It is called ‘Documentation’. If you had a hobby (like collecting...hmmm…how about Mustache Cups), you would understand the importance of documentation . Currently in the Tarot world there are only two Documentation sources (in print), The Encyclopedia of Tarot Vol 1-3 and Manteia. Your suggestion, and lack of awareness of the subject matter is appalling. Just because you don’t understand their purpose – does not mean that they should be incinerated. Dangerous opinion... Shame on you. Oh dear. I must ask once again- where is the love??? Magpie9 wrote: This is meant to be a light-hearted silly playful thread, not the return of the Third Reich!

Fulgour	12 Jan 2005
Umbrae wrote: Just because you don’t understand their purpose – does not mean that they should be incinerated. Maybe we could just singe 'em ~ y'know, for shrink effect?

Umbrae	12 Jan 2005
Fulgour wrote: Maybe we could just singe 'em ~ y'know, for shrink effect? LOL – they’ll look ancient…historical even! Everybody will want one then for their library…ROFL… Then…because they are historical looking…everybody will believe them without question (“It’s old – it has to be correct!”) Too funny Fulgour…

SongDeva	12 Jan 2005
magpie9 wrote: Perfect! I hate that one, too! what a shame trees had to die for it. It might be better if we don't teach our cats and birds to read............? See now, here we go. First, they didn't wanna teach the masses to read. Now the animial kingdom is being repressed.

Shade	12 Jan 2005
Hmmmm burn that Book of Thoth and I hope the spirit of Aleister Crowley leaps out of the flames and chases you around the house. Hmmmm theres a premise for a new Scooby Doo mystery.

darwinia	12 Jan 2005
Fulgour wrote: Are these supposed to be useful in any way, or are they just legal inventory catalogues for tax record purposes? Good for dipping into history, good for visual interest, good for seeing what different artists are up to. Kind of interesting to look at trends of design and art. I find those useful attributes. I had no idea Italian city states were so fraught with violence until I read the Encyclopedia. It also spurred me on a quest to do further Da Vinci study. I enjoyed reading about Pamela Colman Smith--I didn't realize she was so unhappy and bitter at the end of her life. I am haunted by Pixie ending up like that and she WAS a good artist and very creative and cheerful. Inventories and catalogues are interesting--I enjoyed the Tarrock cards and the various configurations of them. When I feel too tired to read I like to pull the Encyclopedias out and browse, and see what artists have done and read about history. I've scanned a few pictures in and done graphics with them and done further research on the authors and artists cited. I find the Encyclopedias a satisfying impetus for exploration. They are well-researched and attractive and full of information that's interesting. Yeah, I find different interests in life are useful. I also find the Wheel of Change an interesting deck--it's one of my favourites. It never occurred to me to bother about her political agenda. I can note it and then enjoy what's interesting and unique about the cards and the effort she put into the writing--she spent 10 years creating that deck, I much admire her originality and ability to use her own voice instead of being a copyist of the latest trend. I admire that same characteristic in Stuart Kaplan for publishing his Encyclopedias too. It's very rare to see these qualities of leadership in the world. I find such qualities useful.

Fulgour	12 Jan 2005
darwinia wrote: I enjoyed reading about Pamela Colman Smith--I didn't realize she was so unhappy and bitter at the end of her life. I am haunted by Pixie ending up like that and she WAS a good artist and very creative and cheerful. It is misleading to assume that Pamela lived in poverty simply because she "died penniless" ~ she was actually rather well off: Bude Cornwall being a very nice resort. So the taxman got nothing, but Pam was independent and able to pick and choose both home ~ and friends.

darwinia	12 Jan 2005
Fulgour wrote: It is misleading to assume that Pamela lived in poverty simply because she "died penniless" ~ she was actually rather well off: Bude Cornwall being a very nice resort. So the taxman got nothing, but Pam was independent and able to pick and choose both home ~ and friends. I was referring to the fact that she was very bitter about not being a first-rate artist and being able to be successful, well-known, and have a flourishing print business. She wasn't really successful you know, and if it were not for the cards we wouldn't be speaking about her today. I was reading the same thing about the architect/designer Charles Rennie Mackintosh. He was bitterly disappointed that he couldn't make it as an architect in the way that Frank Lloyd Wright did. He designed a couple of houses, and also the fixtures, furniture and even cutlery in one instance I think, but ended his life designing fabric patterns for a factory. He was bitter about that; he wanted to be an architect. There was quite a lot of support for artisans in the Art Nouveau movement but very few became really big and successful. Many of them fell along the road and are forgotten, or were not well patronized in their lifetimes. Patronage is a big thing when you're an artist. Pamela got along pretty well when she was young but not when she was older, not the way an artist dreams about. She lost her dream, she was bitter. Nobody wants to be a "cottage artist," they want to be BIG and successful and get commissions galore and have their passion fulfilled. Do you think if she had been successful they would have kicked up such a stink about the paintings she did on the facade of her house? Not on your life and she was bitter about that. We're not talking about money, we're talking about the death of someone's lifetime dream. That's not a happy way to end your life. (And please, can the moderators quit deleting my posts on various forums, there IS relevance to the thread in what I'm saying, since this useful information was gleaned from the Kaplan Encyclopedia.)

magpie9	12 Jan 2005
Thank you for your information and opinion, darwinna. Do you have a tarot book you'd like to nominate for the Catbox Collection? :)

jumptothemoonyea	13 Jan 2005
well, for some reason this thread does not look funny to me we choose our toys not because they right or wrong, but because we love them you choose to be a judge whats good or right or not based on what you like or agreee or not putting lightheartedly metaphorical dirt on other people loved books wrote: “Tarot Books Suitable for Lining the Cat box With?”

lark	13 Jan 2005
Emily Peach. I don't remember the name of the book thank god, but it was no peach. I think she only wrote one book and after that all her writing implements were confiscated. Definite bird cage lining and kitty box fill.

HOLMES	13 Jan 2005
Umbrae wrote: Shame on you. i can't bring myself to throw away old magazines, old books, let alone burn them. eheh. i often wondered where does this natural shame come from that stops me from doing so? i think of the indian jones movie the last crusade . where the "nazis"? were burning books and i was thinking to myself why is that woman crying over the books burning for ? perhpas it was the notion that books couldn't be massive reproduced and so they were gone forever once they are burned. or that she loved books so much as i recall she knew about history from books i think (note to self have to watch movie agian ) *looks around gleefully, and evilly* after reading so many books perhaps i should burn them all so i can read by inuition alone. yet i fear that i will lose memory of what the symbol int he devil hand means, or why the magican is considered mercuary by so many. i would burn some wait decks since there is so many outside of us games instead of books out of anger for the aquatic tarot , steel wizard tarot and so many other fine tarots are passed by.

Dark Inquisitor	13 Jan 2005
darwinia wrote: Nobody wants to be a "cottage artist," they want to be BIG and successful and get commissions galore and have their passion fulfilled. Umm.. depends on the artist. I would be quite content to putter around on my own ideas if I could live comfortably doing it. Commissions usually mean doing what the patron wants. Often, art for money is the death of passion. BIG means different things to different people. Some of the BIGGEST people I ever met have no money at all. And I wouldn't give you 2 cents for some of the well-monied and well known ones who have crossed my path. Meanwhile, back at the book burning party , the guests were getting restless and hostile..

Fudugazi	13 Jan 2005
Dark Inquisitor wrote: Umm.. depends on the artist. I would be quite content to putter around on my own ideas if I could live comfortably doing it. Commissions usually mean doing what the patron wants. Often, art for money is the death of passion. Unless you're Titian or Picasso, in which case the patron does what he's jolly well told! ;) Dark Inquisitor wrote: BIG means different things to different people. Some of the BIGGEST people I ever met have no money at all. And I wouldn't give you 2 cents for some of the well-monied and well known ones who have crossed my path. Quite right. Balzac, Flaubert and Baudelaire struggled for cash all their lives. Mozart died in debt. On the other hand, Titian and Picasso died old and rich. There's just no telling. Money and financial success is not the benchmark in art - or in Tarot! Of course, it's nice to be able to pay the bills.

Fudugazi	13 Jan 2005
jumptothemoonyea wrote: well, for some reason this thread does not look funny to me Don't read it then. Umbrae's had to put up with some of his loved books thrown into his bonfire, after all. Why can't we laugh at this?

Diana	13 Jan 2005
jumptothemoonyea wrote: well, for some reason this thread does not look funny to me It's not funny to me either. Although in the end, it didn't turn out to be a book-burning. I was worried at first that it may turn out like one of those old threads in the Deck section called "Which tarot decks make you puke" or was it: "Which tarot decks make you gag?" (but the Moderator or Solandia changed it to (thanks to whoever did it) if I remember correctly, "Tarot decks that you love to hate". It was one of the most unconstructive and tasteless threads I've ever seen on Aeclectic. But this thread turned out more positively, I think. More of a discussion than just destruction. I was pleasantly surprised. Hardly anyone just said "I hate such-and-such a book, or such-and-such an author" without giving us any food for thought. I find criticism tasteless if there is nothing suggested to put in its place or if reasons are not given for the criticism and destruction. A little like the difference between SlipKnot and NOFX (two music bands) - one destroys but suggests nothing in its place; the other has suggestions: SlipKnot: http://www.bonnieramigo.dk/pressemeddelelser/slipknot/Slipknot%20new%20look%2004%20band%201%20low-res.jpg NOFX: http://www.cosmik.com/aa-september03/reviews/pics/nofx.jpg

Fudugazi	13 Jan 2005
Diana wrote: I find criticism tasteless if there is nothing suggested to put in its place or if reasons are not given for the criticism and destruction. A little like the difference between SlipKnot and NOFX (two music bands) - one destroys but suggests nothing in its place; the other has suggestions: Ah, Diana, we are all afraid of destruction. Look at our reactions to the tsunami. So wilful destruction disgust us most of all. Yet destruction is part of the cycle of life. Frost will bite a rose, wind and water kill. Hindus show us the fearful face of destruction in the Goddess Kali. They recognise that she too, has her place. The world - and life - would stagnate without destruction. XIII comes before reconstuction, and I see no suggestion of "suggestions" in its relentless scythe, though the possiblity of renewal is suggested in the very act of elimination. I don't think we are talking about nazi book-burning here. Just a cosy bonfire allowing us to vent. Personally I wouldn't burn any book unless was cold, but I'd give some away and recycle others.

Diana	13 Jan 2005
Helvetica wrote: Ah, Diana, we are all afraid of destruction. Oopsy-daisy. I don't think we are all afraid of destruction. Some people LOVE the notion. I personally am not particularly afraid of it. It can leave me bewildered and/or puzzled and/or frustrated and/or angry, etc. etc.. But afraid? I'd put that near the bottom of my list of feelings about destruction.

Fulgour	13 Jan 2005
Knowing that any book, and especially a Tarot book, is more about the author than the subject, I allow my spirit to guide me when I choose to bring one home. Hali Morag's The Complete Guide to Tarot Reading was one such purchase. Everything seemed to say, "No!" but my imagination wouldn't give me peace. Why was this book calling to me? I skimmed through it every time I'd be in that store, and had no interest. At last I bought it, and for all the groans, it's a delight.

Fudugazi	13 Jan 2005
Diana wrote: I personally am not particularly afraid of it. It can leave me bewildered and/or puzzled and/or frustrated and/or angry, etc. etc.. But afraid? I'd put that near the bottom of my list of feelings about destruction. Ok you are not afraid of destruction (maybe if you had a wave coming at your house you might be ;)). Many people are. This doesn't change the point I made, which was not about fear but about the natural existence - the necessity even - of periodical desctruction. Its part in the cycle of life and death. You don't ask a cyclone what suggestion it has for reconstruction. What shocks many people - myself included (though maybe you are as unshockable as you are unafraid?)- is when human beings act like cyclones. I'm also angry and sad.

WolfSpirit	13 Jan 2005
*stands protectively in front of her beloved tarot bookcase, taking specific care NOONE touches her R.J. Stewarts* The only tarot books I would not have minded burning were books I got before I got on the Internet or knew what to buy, so I just bought what I ran into at jumble sales etc. They were not very good, but helpful when I had nothing else. So I brought them to a second hand book shop myself, where someone without money for new books may find some use for them.

Umbrae	13 Jan 2005
Hey guys…look…someone made me a bonfire. Look at all these books they’ve stacked near…let’s move them away so they don’t get damaged… I’m going to put on some music, hope you don’t mind… plays: You say you want a revolution Well you know we all want to change the world You tell me that it's evolution Well you know we all want to change the world But when you talk about destruction Don't you know that you can count me out Don't you know it's gonna be alright Alright alright Continues in background Some books should be kept near the fire, as it’s a wonderful place to read them. Some of my prized possessions are books. The complete works of F. Herbert, Tolkien (his birthday went unmentioned, January 3rd), both my regular and annotated Sherlock Holmes, CS Lewis, Pollack, Greer, Soros, Schwager, Lefevre (in its antique leather bible cover), Raymond Chandler… We choose. I hate broccoli and cauliflower. Some folks love it – saying I hate them makes people say, “I have the recipe with cheese sauce…” like I care? Nothing that smells that bad should ever be put in your mouth…it’s an opinion. We make distinctions in this world. We have to criticize A versus B. If we couldn’t we would not be human. If we didn’t we’d be stupid. We choose... As an example. I detest “Seventy-Eight Degrees of…”. It’s not well written, poses nothing new, is just plain wrong, displays the authors ignorance on the subject in glowing vibrant color, spends 354 pages (which used to be trees) to say…nothing. But I will not destroy it. Ever. My opinion means nothing to others – but it means everything to me (and it is my bonfire – so if you don’t like the heat, move away…). Oh here’s a lovely passage, “…Alice, and she went on. "Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?" "That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cat. "I don't much care where-" said Alice. "Then it doesn't matter which way you go," said the Cat. "-so long as I get somewhere," Alice added as an explanation. "Oh, you're sure to do that," said the Cat, "if you only walk long enough." The fire, the critique…there’s nothing wrong here. Just a warm friendly glow. The issue is that I may not like what you love. And when I state it with the passion with which I live my life – you may become offended. It’s not that I dislike you, I just dislike what you love…and my words (usually poorly chosen in this flickering firelight) may become misconstrued. Has nothing to do with you and I… Does not depreciate our love… I just hate broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels spouts, and pork products…I love you. Got it? Now I do have a few of these books by this one author (some are autographed), who is a complete fraud (oh yes he is cuz I knew him when), a hack. He publicly despises the ‘new-age’ movement and writes for it. He’s slimy, a serpent dressed as a man. He’s well respected among the people who carry his books around lovingly and he literally calls us ‘suckers’. Now his books…let’s move them a little closer to the flames, shall we…?

Rusty Neon	13 Jan 2005
Umbrae wrote: Hey guys…look…someone made me a bonfire. Look at all these books they’ve stacked near…let’s move them away so they don’t get damaged… LWBs are books too. :) And some longer books are just expanded LWBs.

Satori	13 Jan 2005
I think this must be the bofnire of the spamities.... No, the fobnire of the tyrannities.... I'll get it, I'll get it.... the quagmire of the vanity's? Ummm.... I made a whole steamed cauliflower for a dinner once, adorned with pureed broccoli in a cheese sauce. No one ate it (except my sister-in-law who will eat anything cheesy anyway) a) because it looked like a large brain on a plate with green slime on it. b) it smelled really bad. c) we were all too busy laughing hysterically that this was an actual recipe. d) all of the above. We burned the leftovers. And the recipe.

firemaiden	13 Jan 2005
darwinia wrote: I find the Encyclopedias a satisfying impetus for exploration. They are well-researched and attractive and full of information that's interesting. Yeah, I find different interests in life are useful. fascinating post, darwinia. See guys? something positive has come out of the book burning, because then people save the books from the pile, and tell us why -- which is even more interesting than the reasons they went into the pile. Quote: I also find the Wheel of Change an interesting deck--it's one of my favourites. It never occurred to me to bother about her political agenda. I can note it and then enjoy what's interesting and unique about the cards and the effort she put into the writing--she spent 10 years creating that deck, I much admire her originality and ability to use her own voice instead of being a copyist of the latest trend. I do admire the Wheel of Change deck, for the artwork, and the thought that went into it. I really do. It's just... the accompanying book which well... no, never mind, Umbrae said he just burns wood...

darwinia	13 Jan 2005
magpie9 wrote: Thank you for your information and opinion, darwinna. Do you have a tarot book you'd like to nominate for the Catbox Collection? :) I hesitate to say, but two of the most dreadful books I've read were by Rachel Pollack: 1) Forest of Souls 2) Seventy-Eight Degrees of Wisdom The other I have is: 3) Tarot As a Way of Life: A Jungian Approach to the Tarot by Karen Hamaker-Zondag This reads like gobbledygook, so although it's number 3, it's actually number 1 for the bonfire. (I love Rachel's books on the Haindl Tarot though.) Interesting thread--a creative way of highlighting people's experience with reading books. It's a little window on interpretive skill in many ways. ;-0)))

darwinia	13 Jan 2005
Dark Inquisitor wrote: Umm.. depends on the artist I did over-generalize Taro. "Pamela Colman Smith did not want to be a cottage artist." There, it would have been clearer had I said it that way, since that IS specifically what I meant. I'm a librarian, I would not burn a book, but Umbrae's humour in the thread was charming, and as I said it's interesting to note what people have discovered in their reading. I enjoy hearing what people think about the books they read. A worthwhile exploration of books!

jumptothemoonyea	13 Jan 2005
Umbrae wrote: The fire, the critique…there’s nothing wrong here. Just a warm friendly glow. I walked, and saw a fire, and stopped to warm myself up ... oh well, in respond to some ideas expressed here, I suggest to have these polls: 1. Is it possible to be burned by a virtual fire? Yes/No?Who Cares 2. Do you like broccoli? Yes/No/Agrrr/Who Cares 3. Public fire vs. Private fire? Yes/No/Who Cares 4. Kali sacrifices are necessary. Yes/No/Why not/Who Cares 5. In discussions and critique consider other people feelings (maybe even be kind to them?). Yes/No/No way/Never/Hmmm/Who Cares stay warm

Moongold	13 Jan 2005
I haven't purchased a single Tarot book I'd throw away. Maybe one day when I reach perfection I won't need or want books. I wonder how careful some of you are in chosing books :D. I read reviews and have a damn good look before I buy. I do notice that the type of books I buy is changing. Have always bought lots of poetry. Am now buying books on mythology and going back to novels. Have just begun Wilkie Collins" Woman in White. I actually own more astrology books than Tarot. Would probably not buy another Donna Cunningham. Darwinia ~ it's nice to meet another librarian though I changed professions along time ago. :)

dolphingirl	14 Jan 2005
Going in the lightheared vein that the thread was intended I would have to say Tarot Games: 45 Playful Ways to Explore Tarot Cards Together by Cait Johnson, Maura D. Shaw, Durga T. Bernhard - I was all excited to get this book but the front of it is full of the most man hating political rant that I saw red. I'm sory if your making a book on how to have fun with your cards don't add an agenda to it.

Fulgour	14 Jan 2005
Rusty Neon wrote: LWBs are books too. :) And some longer books are just expanded LWBs. A humble paean I once composed in praise of the generic LWB was appreciatively included in the CT-FAQ's with my blessings.

spoonbender	14 Jan 2005
HOLMES wrote: the "nazis"? were burning books and i was thinking to myself why is that woman crying over the books burning for ? Why??? Don't you think the woman was crying for everything books represent? Knowledge, alternative information, but also imagination and individual expression: all destroyed. You know, I read in the paper just the other day about some guy in the US wanting to "save society from moral decay" by getting rid of all books that have a connection to homosexuality, including plays by Tennessee Williams and books by Herman Melville. He suggested to dig a pit and throw them in there. So this thread makes me feel very uncomfortable too, and doesn't seem very constructive to begin with. It's surprising to see it on a Tarot Forum when you think about it, because I'm sure all those fundamentalist "christians" would be more than happy to burn all Tarot books. Freedom of speech is so important - book burning is just a horrid thought. Spoon

darwinia	14 Jan 2005
Moongold wrote: Darwinia ~ it's nice to meet another librarian though I changed professions along time ago. :) I love the work, but hate the hierarchy and snobbery inherent in the profession. I find the trend moving toward training administrators, rather than fostering a knowledge or love of books and collection development which has always been my focus in addition to customer service. Your comments about choosing/buying books were good. I usually look, then save a print-out and reviews from amazon.com and then think about it for a few weeks or months. Most of the books I buy are great and I wouldn't part with them. Sometimes, no matter how carefully you consider and read reviews, the book just isn't for you, which is what happened to me with Rachel Pollack. I loved her Haindl books and thought the others would be great, but it wasn't the case.

Fudugazi	14 Jan 2005
darwinia wrote: Sometimes, no matter how carefully you consider and read reviews, the book just isn't for you, which is what happened to me with Rachel Pollack. I loved her Haindl books and thought the others would be great, but it wasn't the case. Since we're into burning sacred cows, then I am going to propose Mary Greer's Tarot for Yourself. I've tried, honestly I have. First time round I was bored and didn't make it half-way. Second time round (recently, propelled by this forum), I never even made it past the first few chapters. I find her method and her ideas so pedestrian. Rather than awakening my imagination (which is vivid enough already), Tarot for Yourself dulls it. Rather than helping me go deeper, it puts me to sleep. So to revive the spark, I choose other (often non-Tarot) authors any day (Natalie Goldberg already mentioned - that woman is a Teacher). To go deeper - well, there are others. I am reading Meditations on the Tarot at the moment, and it's so much above Mary Greer, that you can't even begin to compare them. Of course I wouldn't actually burn a book. It conjures up too many ghastly images and fear of censorship that spoonbeder reminded us of. But next English jumble sale to take place here...or if anyone on the forum wants it...

Rusty Neon	14 Jan 2005
Helvetica wrote: Of course I wouldn't actually burn a book. It conjures up too many ghastly images and fear of censorship that spoonbeder reminded us of. But next English jumble sale to take place here...or if anyone on the forum wants it... The burning is figurative. Use the "lining the cat litter box" analogy mentioned by magpie if you find that easier to imagine. :)

mercenary30	14 Jan 2005
But there is one book that I read that I just really didn't like that I know many people think is just grand. The Complete Guide to the Tarot by Eden Gray. It to me seemed very dated, and didn't seem to me to add any new knowledge about the tarot. Maybe this was because it was not one of the first books that I read and by the time I got around to reading it there was little "new" information in it for me.....but irreguardless, I was not a fan of this book.

Diana	14 Jan 2005
I wouldn't line my cat litter-box with books. But I would line them with some Tarot decks willingly. (And I burnt a deck recently as a sacrifice to the tarot gods ( :D ). They were very amused! One of them even giggled. First time I have ever heard a god giggling. :joke: ).

Fudugazi	14 Jan 2005
Rusty Neon wrote: The burning is figurative. Use the "lining the cat litter box" analogy mentioned by magpie if you find that easier to imagine. :) I don't have a cat! Not even a figurative one, they make me sneeze :( But I do have occasional needs to raise chairs, or make popcorn cones for my nephew and niece. That'll do ;)

Alta	14 Jan 2005
Hi folks, The thread is about which books, or LWBs that you thought were not worth while. This has been expressed in various metaphorical ways, and some folks have taken offense at metaphors (??). The topic is a good one and some interesting thoughts and information has come out. Using this topic to lambast individuals or groups isn't going to be accepted as a part of the discussion. Goodness knows there are tons of Forums out there that allow trolling, insults etc, in fact encourage it as far as I can see. There also seems to be a tendency to want to pull threads into Chat-like discussions, and I would ask that if you want to Chat, we have a Forum for that. See Forum Rules for further clarification. Thanks, Marion co-moderator of TT

firemaiden	14 Jan 2005
Helvetica wrote: Since we're into burning sacred cows, then I am going to propose Mary Greer's Tarot for Yourself. I've tried, honestly I have. First time round I was bored and didn't make it half-way. Second time round (recently, propelled by this forum), I never even made it past the first few chapters. I tried several times to get into "Tarot for yourself" too, and was repelled by something - that is the fixed attachment to certain cards... This is your soul card, and this is your year card, and other numerological or astrological associations which lock you forever into being associated with one card. For me, a focus on this kind of thing robs the tarot of its specific genius, -- that is chaos --the random associations, infinite combinations offered by shuffling the cards. It's sort of like she wants to "tame" the cards by pinning them down. I can't do it... everything in me rebels when I see that kind of thing. I like...FREEDOM.

spoonbender	14 Jan 2005
firemaiden wrote: I can't do it... everything in me rebels when I see that kind of thing. I like...FREEDOM. That's what I like so much about the way you read, FM :). I also didn't like Tarot for Yourself... The exercises felt more like chores to me, so I only got through the first chapters.

Sulis	14 Jan 2005
Now me, I like 'Tarot for yourself', I'd definately burn Rachel Pollacks' '78 degrees of Wisdom' (metaphorically speaking of course ;)) - Just don't like that book - I tried to like it but it just seems to go all around the houses to say anything (in my opinion ;)) Love Sulis xx

Moongold	14 Jan 2005
firemaiden wrote: I tried several times to get into "Tarot for yourself" too, and was repelled by something - that is the fixed attachment to certain cards... This is your soul card, and this is your year card, and other numerological or astrological associations which lock you forever into being associated with one card. For me, a focus on this kind of thing robs the tarot of its specific genius, -- that is chaos --the random associations, infinite combinations offered by shuffling the cards. It's sort of like she wants to "tame" the cards by pinning them down. I can't do it... everything in me rebels when I see that kind of thing. I like...FREEDOM. I haven't read "Tarot for Yourself" but I do have "Tarot Constellations" which is the 1980's book in which Greer first promoted the Life time cards idea. "Tarot Constellations" is now out of print so I won't be burning it tonight. Those who benefit from my will might make some money from it in a few decades time LOL. By the way, I think it was Dr. Angeles Arrien, the noted Thoth scholar and practitioner (cultural anthropolgist) who really began the Lifetime cards idea I believe. I must confess to having something of hers I haven't read yet - "Tarot Handbook: practical application of lifetime symbols". I got that initially because it gives such a lot of unformation about the Thoth deck. I didn't think I could read the Crowley's source book. No fires though or even the litter box (use newspapers for that). If I want to divest myself of a book I usually give it to the library or an op-shop. My cat is probably less erudite than Magpie's as a consequence.

stella01904	14 Jan 2005
MM ~ I'm against book burning, also - so what to line the cat box with? Not LWB's - they're FUNNY. Has anyone seen the one for Le Jeu Du Destin Antique? NOTHING to do with the deck, some other system of cartomancy entirely! Tarot doesn't fare any better. Worse, actually. But back to the question - well, any book by some self-proclaimed "expert" that has just spreads and tables of interps. We have FORUMS now. But I'd keep them, as a historical curiosity. BB, Stella

firemaiden	14 Jan 2005
Sulis wrote: Now me, I like 'Tarot for yourself', I'd definately burn Rachel Pollacks' '78 degrees of Wisdom' (metaphorically speaking of course ;)) - Just don't like that book - I tried to like it but it just seems to go all around the houses to say anything (in my opinion ;)) Really? I do like her on the majors. Some of her discussions of the Majors, I find to be very rich.

Moongold	14 Jan 2005
Sulis wrote: Now me, I like 'Tarot for yourself', I'd definately burn Rachel Pollacks' '78 degrees of Wisdom' (metaphorically speaking of course ;)) - Just don't like that book - I tried to like it but it just seems to go all around the houses to say anything (in my opinion ;)) I think 78 DW is good. It was written around 1988 initially in two parts and was later published in one volume. I've forgotten the exact dates. Some of these books are quite old and it's good to hold that in mind when you read them! One thing I do find about Rachel Pollack is that she often doesn't reference things in the text itself although she usually does have a bibliography. Not referencing affects credibility a little and lessens the reading experience for those who love to follow up on things.

Fudugazi	14 Jan 2005
firemaiden wrote: Really? I do like her on the majors. Some of her discussions of the Majors, I find to be very rich. I agree - her explorations are very rich (I don't know if she's right or wrong, but she does give room for discussion). But I don't like the way she prescribes meanings - even reversed meanings! - so as a result I don't like her so much on the minors. One other thing I like about her is her notion of "gate cards", which, while possibly of limited use in a reading, is very good in meditation. Actually, I find her more useful for meditating and getting to know the symbols than for reading - on that I have to agree with Umbrae, Darwinia and Sulis. She taught me to look at the cards, compare decks, take notice. After a while I was making up my own mind about them.

Sulis	14 Jan 2005
Helvetica wrote: Actually, I find her more useful for meditating and getting to know the symbols than for reading - on that I have to agree with Umbrae, Darwinia and Sulis. She taught me to look at the cards, compare decks, take notice. After a while I was making up my own mind about them. I think this is probably what I meant about '78 degrees of Wisdom'. She has a very esoteric approach I think. I found her card meanings a little difficult to apply to real-life situations. Love Sulis xx

Aoife	14 Jan 2005
Moongold wrote: I think 78 DW is good. It was written around 1988 initially in two parts and was later published in one volume. I've forgotten the exact dates. My copy shows the original copyrights to be 1980 and 1983. I think Mary Greer also started publishing around the same time. My recollection is that their work in the early eighties was groundbreaking - a startling new perspective. For me, their writing therefore merits honour in the annals of tarot history.

Moongold	14 Jan 2005
Aoife wrote: My copy shows the original copyrights to be 1980 and 1983. I think Mary Greer also started publishing around the same time. My recollection is that their work in the early eighties was groundbreaking - a startling new perspective. For me, their writing therefore merits honour in the annals of tarot history. You are correct about the dates! The original two volumes were published in 1980, 83 and they were amalgamated iinto one edition in 1995. So these are classics. Hold on to them. I think I heard last year that 78DW is out of print, so it might become a collector's edition as well.

Keslynn	17 Jan 2005
I did actually have to throw away two Eden Gray books, but they were unfortunately water-damaged before I had a chance to read them. *sigh* I would toss in Past Life and Karmic Tarot and Tarot and Dream Interpretation. I really didn't get anything from them, and it's cold here. :) Kes

Sulis	17 Jan 2005
I'm giving '78 degrees of Wisdom' another go. I think that now I'm a little more experienced with tarot I may get more out of it. Never let it be said that I don't listen to you guys ;) Love Sulis xx

rainwolf	02 Feb 2005
lark wrote: Emily Peach. I don't remember the name of the book thank god, but it was no peach. I think she only wrote one book and after that all her writing implements were confiscated. Definite bird cage lining and kitty box fill. I think the title is "Tarot for tomorrow" I thought it was very...informational adn i personally liked it, but for someone wanting to know basics or just some stuff, this was not a book to get because it gets very very detailed and specific. I liked it though-she had original ideas. Sulis wrote: Now me, I like 'Tarot for yourself', I'd definately burn Rachel Pollacks' '78 degrees of Wisdom' (metaphorically speaking of course ) - Just don't like that book - I tried to like it but it just seems to go all around the houses to say anything (in my opinion ) I was expecting much more from her book when i bought it. I had been reading for a while, and her ideas werent all that great, i dont know why its so much of a "tarot classic". I would like to know why ppl like it so much though-i'd be willing to see good in it.

The Books for Umbrae's Bonfire~your contribution ? thread was originally posted on 11 Jan 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.