Christian Tarot Readers

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 01 Jan 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

bladeraven	01 Jan 2005
I had a coworker whom I read for a few days ago, that was a born again Christian...She kept telling me..I shouldn't be near them or around them and it really sparked a very wonderful conversation between her and I.. I'm a Christian (with a lot of witch in me)...and I feel that what I have isn't a curse but a blessing....What makes us any different from a midwife?? None I don't think..I was curious how many here were Christian Witches or even just Christian Tarot Readers and if you had any interesting stories to share??

WhiteRaven	01 Jan 2005
bladeraven wrote: I had a coworker whom I read for a few days ago, that was a born again Christian...She kept telling me..I shouldn't be near them or around them .. [snip] So if she kept telling you that you shouldn't be near them...why did she allow you to read for her in the first place? :confused:

bladeraven	01 Jan 2005
I just explained to her that Tarot cards are not what mass media says they are...They are not evil...they don't foretell doom (common response I got was..I don't want to hear anything bad) and that the future isn't set in stone..we have free will...and that the cards were guiding tools more or less. She was curious about them....but was scared to death.

WhiteRaven	01 Jan 2005
If she is a born again christian and/or right-wing Chrisitian...she's questioning her own beliefs...I know for a fact that a Right-Wing Chrisitian would never allow such a thing (reading)..however, I'm not sure if being a "Born AGain Christian" is the same thing. As for your question...this is very controversal and I'm not going to touch it with a "ten foot pole "...I've had enough of debating for a while...;)

bladeraven	01 Jan 2005
Lol..I have no idea..but I was curious if there were any other Christians who read the Tarot or who considered themselves as "Christian Witches"... It's the first time I've heard the term christian Witch.

WhiteRaven	01 Jan 2005
oh yes...there's even "Christian Wicca"... (you're baiting me....) :P

bladeraven	01 Jan 2005
Lol..What's Christian Wicca/Witchcraft...I've heard it thrown around but don't know what it means...

WhiteRaven	01 Jan 2005
First off..don't get confused with "Witchcraft" and "Wicca"...they are not the same. "Witchcraft" is not a "religion"...You can be a Wiccan and not practice Witchcraft just like you can be a Witch and not be Wiccan. I have no comment on the "Christian Wicca"...I suggest that you do some googling...if you know anything about Wicca...it should give you something to ponder on...that's as far as this bird's going on that topic...;)

bladeraven	01 Jan 2005
lol..don't worry..I know the difference between witchcraft and wicca...just never heard Christian and Wicca in same saying..lol

WhiteRaven	01 Jan 2005
bladeraven wrote: lol..don't worry..I know the difference between witchcraft and wicca...just never heard Christian and Wicca in same saying..lol Not many people do...but it's out there...I think you could find just about anything out there if you looked hard enough... I'm in a yahoo group for pagans and we were talking about that a few months back...I did some searching and found it...someone had said that it didn't exist...there's always been a huge debate on whether it's christian-like to read Tarot or do any "healing" perse...The word "Witch" did not exist when the bible was written...Jesus was a "healer"..but argue that with a right-wing Christian and see how far you get...what am I saying...there is no "arguing" with a right-wing Chrisitan..they're always right so what's the point.

Dark Inquisitor	01 Jan 2005
Interesting discussion ! I marvel at how many Christians hang around occult sites, and how many times I read of someone stating that they are Christian but "strangely drawn" to pagan stuff, tarot , etc. I once asked a group of former Christians the reasons for this phenomenon, and the best answer I got was : "The occult makes Christians horny." (!)

WhiteRaven	01 Jan 2005
Dark Inquisitor wrote: "The occult makes Christians horny." (!) You're kidding right?...no...you're not...:rolleyes::laugh:

Dark Inquisitor	01 Jan 2005
I did not make that up ! One more true story from the bizarre files.

WhiteRaven	01 Jan 2005
Many Freemasons and the female branch called Co-Masonry call their group the Craft, and they have been doing so for hundreds of years. These Christians talking about the craft might also be Masons. Personal interpretation although the bible does prohibit anyone from witchcraft – many Christians “Witches” site mistranslation in the bible. That is, of course, an accurate position as many scholars of ancient Aramaic do agree that “Witch” is a mistranslation as there was no word for Witch in Aramaic or Hebrew – there was Seer and something close to Alchemist (the bad sort) but nope…no word for “Witch.” Even so, being a Seer was something very much frowned upon….in the bible, Saul seeks the advice of the Witch of Endor…the accurate translation was the Seer of Endor…kind of like a medium in those days…ESP type of thing. He is punished for seeking this type of knowledge. It had nothing to do with the later connection of Seers/Witches to the devil – this no-no had to do with Saul’s seeming lack of faith in God/Yahweh. The whole witchcraft being a horrendous sin worthy of death came about thanks to King James, his religious zealotry and his purported insanity. Being a Witch has nothing to do with the bible – it does have everything to do with the latter mistranslation of the word. I have had a couple of discussions with ministers and one priest…to a person – the opinion is that one cannot be a Christian and a witch. It flies in the face of their faith – the omnipotent God etc. etc. Nobody said anything about the devil or evil-doing – the concern was that the belief in witchcraft was contrary to the Christian belief of God providing answers and solutions to problems. The concept of spellcasting from their perspective was interfering with God’s will. The ability to work Craft may be natural to some people but was not sanctioned due to the above mentioned reason. Only God can decide what is to be and man should be humble in the face of God etc. etc. Now, tie this into Tarot and what do you get Bladeraven?

Moongold	02 Jan 2005
bladeraven wrote: I just explained to her that Tarot cards are not what mass media says they are...They are not evil...they don't foretell doom (common response I got was..I don't want to hear anything bad) and that the future isn't set in stone..we have free will...and that the cards were guiding tools more or less. She was curious about them....but was scared to death. Yes, I would agree with WhiteRaven that possibly your co-worker is interested but afraid. There might be all sorts of valid constraints on her and the fact that she has asked you might be the door opening a little more for her. It may close again too, with a resounding thud. I think the simpler you keep explanations the better. Tarot really needs no defenses and no proselytizing. It will work best by attraction. If people feel interested they will take responsibility and seek the information in their own time and their own way. Your co-worker seems to be doing that.

Sophie-David	02 Jan 2005
Hello BladeRaven and WhiteRaven! I do consider myself both a born again Christian and a born again Wiccan, i.e. spiritually reborn in both god and goddess. This combination can be called Christo-Pagan, Esoteric Christian or Mystic Christian. There are many born again Christians like myself who are not conservative, literalist or right-wing (but much fewer who are also pagan). To me, born again simply means that you believe in the baptism and infilling of the spirit, it does not have to include a brainwashed attitude to the Bible, religious doctrine or structure. The stories of the New Testament and the Gnostic writings are full of people who were baptised in the spirit, that was the normative pattern. But in many conservative churches, there seems to be a strange contradiction, they encourage followers to be born again, but the manifestation of the gifts of the spirit - what we might today call psychic phenomenon - are deprecated. When I experienced the union with the Inner Beloved in April last year, the awareness and release of my own feminine psyche brought about a new sensitivity to the way the feminine is viewed within mainstream Christianity. It soon became clear that I was now seeing the divine in both male and female forms. I stated to develop my own rituals to express this new understanding. Within a month after the union, I was also specifically requested by Sophie, my Inner Beloved, to ask my mentor for a Tarot reading. I would have, in the past, viewed Tarot as the work of the Devil and that does seem to be a common understanding - any esoteric knowledge which does not arise from prayer, including prayer to other gods (in my liberal view), would by definition proceed from the forces of darkness. This is of course in complete ignorance of the history of much of Tarot imagery emerging from Renaissance Christianity, and the fact that a great many Roman Catholic clergy and laity, particularly in Italy, having been using Tarot divination for quite a number of years! When I went for my first Tarot reading, I was quite apprehensive, although I trusted the reader implicitly, and prayed protective prayers before dealing the cards. But having had my readings, I realized that these precautions had been completely unnecessary, Tarot was "safe". Well, this was just one of many re-evaluations that went on over the course of the past year - it sure does teach one to be humble. :) BTW, I have come to love darkness! There is much doctrine that I find upsetting in the Bible, particularly in the Old Testament, the Letters of Paul, and Revelations. In particular this Christmas season I had great difficulty with the story of an immaculate conception, which I consider a divine rape - what person could refuse the attentions of a god? Like a statutary rape between those of a significant age difference, this supposed union was one between non-equals where a free or qualified choice was missing. I must admit that I mainly go to church for the singing and the sacred magic of communion. But to be fair, it always easy to criticize the traditional and historical - any established human institutions become full of self-contradiction. What I have seen of Wiccan practice hasn't really been too satisfying for me either. And whatever you want to call the dominant religion of our society - determinism, rationalism or materialism - is full of lots of insanity also. Humanity just loves to take its metaphors literally. And there's my rant for the evening! })

Moongold	02 Jan 2005
WhiteRaven wrote: I have had a couple of discussions with ministers and one priest…to a person – the opinion is that one cannot be a Christian and a witch. It flies in the face of their faith – the omnipotent God etc. etc. Nobody said anything about the devil or evil-doing – the concern was that the belief in witchcraft was contrary to the Christian belief of God providing answers and solutions to problems. The concept of spellcasting from their perspective was interfering with God’s will. The ability to work Craft may be natural to some people but was not sanctioned due to the above mentioned reason. Only God can decide what is to be and man should be humble in the face of God etc. etc. Now, tie this into Tarot and what do you get Bladeraven? It would be very hard to be a member of any group whose rules were opposed to your personal beliefs and instincts And obviously, in parts of the world it is dangerous to live such duality. However people do. One such example is gay and lesbian men and women who remain practising members of the Catholic and other churches. I have known many who distinguish for themselves between what they see as separate entitiies: the organizational and the spiritual church. They see the Church proper as a political entity which has lost sight of true spirituality. Many clergy and religious support them, and are even among their number. I liken these brave men and women to the early Christians who practised their faith no matter what the prevailing powers thought. However, it is a very hard road to walk and many leave to seek freedom elsewhere. The spiritual church, the other, continues to grow and to seek ways it can survive within the political church. This is not to say at all that there are not orthodox Catholics who don't approve of homosexuality but who are genuinely spiritual people all the same. At a stretch, one could be a wiccan and a practisng Christian but the contradictions would be hard. I think it would be very much easier to practice Tarot and Catholicism or Christianity at the same time. There are probably many who do. Tarot is a broad ranging interest. There are people on Aeclectic who simply read by way of the symbolism and their capacity to weave narrative from the cards that is relevant to the answers sought. There are others who feel their beliefs are not compromised by the practice of Tarot. bladeraven - you have raised a very interesting question - one that crops up here again and again.

bladeraven	02 Jan 2005
I've done several readings for my co-workers already and now I have another co-worker who because of that one I occassionaly read for as well...I thought it was interesting that was happening..since I"m a Christian and I study the bible at work too...I'm sure the sight is an oddity to many but my mom is a Buddhist, brothers hate God (literally) so I'm use to contradictions...lol

Fulgour	02 Jan 2005
Dark Inquisitor wrote: I marvel at how many Christians hang around occult sites, and how many times I read of someone stating that they are Christian but "strangely drawn" to pagan stuff, tarot , etc. Something existed in the early Christian Era that caused "Christian-ity" to be embraced by many different peoples. Tolerance was the key fundamental and did not last long. It may well yet be said that, the Truth is (still) out there.

bladeraven	02 Jan 2005
Lol..bit off topic since I was hoping to hear from Christians who used the tarot or were Christian Witches or however you choose to identify yourself..you could be a ..well never mind...this is moderated...LOL but..I think the core of Christianity still exists somewhere but Christianity at large as been warped..I don't think the Christianity we see today is the Christianity that was supposed to have been...It was not meant to be with big churches, money-making machines, pastors who are richer than their "flock"...There are probrably a true essence of Christianity existing but it's been overshadow by it's big brother of fundamentalist who convert by usign different forms of the sword...hatred that is used as doctrine of love.. Christianity in its essence was pure until it fell in the hands of politicians and money...I feel there is a pure form out there...and it's not what we see in mass production...I'm a Christian...I have friends who are pagans and I love them to death...I know a Muslim too and we all go to bars...oh..I'm sorry...wrong joke.. For those who are Christians...remember how Christ went into the temple that also served as a bazaar...(Mat 21:12 Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves."It is written," he said to them, "'My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a 'den of robbers.'") People were making money off of people who came to worship....We see this with any major religion when it comes into the hands of power and greed...It gets warped and twisted and used as a tool not a way.. There are good and bad as there are good and bad Pagans, good and bad Muslims, good and bad politicians..uhm..never mind..there are just bad politicians. ANYWAY....lol..off topic...so for those who are Christians and who read the Tarot..how do you feel about Tarot reading and how do you discuss it with others...?"

WhiteRaven	02 Jan 2005
Fulgour wrote: It may well yet be said that, the Truth is ( still ) out there. This, imho, is so very true. We only really know the "truth" when we die.

huredriel	02 Jan 2005
WhiteRaven wrote: Many Freemasons and the female branch called Co-Masonry call their group the Craft, and they have been doing so for hundreds of years. These Christians talking about the craft might also be Masons. Now this is something I never knew. My grandfather was a freemason, apparently high up in their order, but would never discuss it, he also used to get premonitions (never good) and always told me to steer clear of certain things (like ouija boards etc). It makes me wonder exactly what he experienced. I might have be drawn to this path even earlier. Oh I wish LOL.

bladeraven	02 Jan 2005
Lol...things happen for a reason...that's probrably not the path meant for you..sometimes the worst things is to try and be something that we're not.

Sophie-David	02 Jan 2005
Hi Huredriel It is difficult to find a neutral discussion of Masons on the Internet - its either strongly pro or con. There is a fairly complete and concise but not particularly objective reference here: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/masons.htm It is worth noting that Freemansonry is not particularly associated with Christianity, but stands as a religion in its own right. Many members have no other religious affiliation, and many other members have affiliations other than Christianity. Incidentally, Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyers have an interesting discussion about the Masonic foundations of the USA in The Power of Myth, pages 24-30, large format (picture) edition. Campbell notes that "'In God We Trust'...is not the god of the Bible." bladeraven wrote: ANYWAY....lol..off topic...so for those who are Christians and who read the Tarot..how do you feel about Tarot reading and how do you discuss it with others...?" Early on in my new life with the Inner Beloved, I asked Jesus about how our relationship had changed. The answer was that I had grown up, he didn't expect me to be checking in all the time, I had access to all the tools I needed for life and growth. There was also the recognition that part of my further growth to wholeness came in experiencing other manifestations of spirituality, particularly those with a more feminine context. Without going into all the Jungian theory again here, I see the inner feminine as resting in goddess consciousness, since the psychological function of the Beloved is an exact reflection of my understanding of the High Priestess archetype, the gateway and guide to the unconscious and beyond. So Tarot for me is a particular focus on the sacred in my life, particularly that of the divine feminine. But really, that sacredness is no different in kind from any other thing that one might do during the day: eating, washing, sleeping, working, sex, etc. - I relate this to my interpretation of Celtic spirituality. It is simply that Tarot has the more intentional and conscious focus of a ritual. Tarot is yet one more way to connect with that sacred essence that is in me, in all of us, in all things, and is part of - or is - the divine. As my daughter, a Wiccan says, prayer is a form of magic. I also see Tarot as a form of magic, expressed in either received wisdom or transmitted intention. Churches are as diverse as the people in them. I sent the link to my Inner Beloved web site to our current pastor - he has no problem with it, and in fact I felt that his respect and understanding of me increased. I also sent him a skit or mini-play that I wrote, "The Preface to the Gospel of Luke", which presents a dialogue between god and goddess discussing the problems that humanity has, including my theory of the divine rape of Mary. We have yet to discuss the play, or my revelation that I read Tarot, but we still seem to be good friends. I am still quite inexperienced in Tarot and have only read for myself, my wife, and one other friend. When I have more experience, I will undoubtably offer to donate reading time to my church (and in the church) as part of routine fundraising. Who knows whether or not that will be accepted? As mentioned previously, in some countries Tarot is a particularly Roman Catholic tradition, but I am not a member of that denomination. I would also like to note that, in my experience, the majority of churches and pastors do not rake in large amounts of money. Like most practictioners of veterinary medicine, the typical pastor is underpaid, overworked, and ill-appreciated - its a job you do because you feel you need to. Medical doctors and psychologists are much more likely to make a decent wage. :)

huredriel	02 Jan 2005
Sophie-David wrote: Hi Huredriel It is difficult to find a neutral discussion of Masons on the Internet - its either strongly pro or con. There is a fairly complete and concise but not particularly objective reference here: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/masons.htm It is worth noting that Freemansonry is not particularly associated with Christianity, but stands as a religion in its own right. Many members have no other religious affiliation, and many other members have affiliations other than Christianity. Incidentally, Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyers have an interesting discussion about the Masonic foundations of the USA in The Power of Myth , pages 24-30, large format (picture) edition. Campbell notes that "'In God We Trust'...is not the god of the Bible." Thank you so much Sophie-David, this is very interesting. Definitely seems to suit my granddad. Unfortunately I never got to find out what level he was at, just that it was very high and my mum had to return some stuff after he died. Most English Lodges I believe have their meetings every Thursday, at least that's when he went and I think he was with them for most of his life. Guess I'll never know any more than I do now about his involvement. Thanks anyway. x Huredriel

Moongold	02 Jan 2005
bladeraven ~ I was brought up Catholic and about 10 years ago developed a deep friendship with a group of nuns involved in swork with homeless women. These nuns are quite exceptional but have no diifficulty with the Tarot. I even gave one of them an Italian deck for Christmas and another the RWS They are educated and world travelled women, well versed in mythology and symbolism. They could easily understand and have no apparent difficulty with the divination aspects of Tarot. As Sophie David pointed out there is a relatively close connection between Catholicsm and Tarot, it simply depends on whether you want to see it or not. Whilst these friends are interested and open, I am not sure that the Tarot would ever become a consuming passion. They have another kind of spirituality. Many blessings to you in your work.

bladeraven	02 Jan 2005
Lol..I don't do Tarot readings for a living..lol..I was reading a book I brought and it caught the eye of my co-worker, because normally at lunch I'm doing bible study.... I'm more Methodist with a step away from Catholicism for me...I think it made it seem easier for it to not be a big step for me..but I'm also half vietnamese and as much as I have faith in Christ...I have my beliefs and superstitions as a Vietnamese girl... For me..it's intertwined.... My mom would have us close our hands in a certain way and would read our future that way..it was a form of Palmistry but not quite....so it's always been a part of the family one way or another.

jmd	02 Jan 2005
The link given above by Sophie-David with regards to Freemasonry is both factually incorrect and anti-Masonic - a little like this view on the 'New Age' and Tarot from the same site. Highly bias and filled with bigotry. (Another good example of their bigotry is their article on palmistry) If you would like to find some more worthwhile information and discussion on the various aspects of Freemasonry (including the many branches that are not gender exclusive - whether for men only or women only), then I would personally recommend: [center]Masonic Forum of Light[/center] A number of us on these boards are not only Christian, but also Freemasons, and also interested in myriad other avenues and narrower paths leading to the sacred: religere in its etymological sense. With regards to bladeraven's question a few posts up - viz. 'for those who are Christians and who read the Tarot..how do you feel about Tarot reading and how do you discuss it with others...?', I do not sense any problem between divination, speaking with fortunæ ('fortune telling'), or in fact generally discussing with myriad individuals. Some of the courses on Tarot and on Kabalah I have in the past run have been in conjunction with a (now retired) Anglican priest. My grandfather, who usually read portions of scripture during (Catholic) services in France (and who would have taken orders had he not married - or so he said) had and used Tarot, and so did his compatriots, at least one of whom also wrote a book that included a chapter on Tarot - this was in the mid-1930s (Science Occulte and Sciences Occultes). How do I discuss it with others? depends who they are, the context, and what the discussion is about... the same way we probably discuss other general topics of interest, whether they be related to history, to writing, to computing, etc...

mac22	02 Jan 2005
Dark Inquisitor wrote: Interesting discussion ! I marvel at how many Christians hang around occult sites, and how many times I read of someone stating that they are Christian but "strangely drawn" to pagan stuff, tarot , etc. I once asked a group of former Christians the reasons for this phenomenon, and the best answer I got was : "The occult makes Christians horny." (!) Let me clarify a few things. First off I am a Christian. I'm fluent in Both Hebrew & Koine Greek the actual languages of the Christian Bible. I've read the Bible in the original texts. There is NO QUESTION that the Hebrews [and early christians] believed in and used magic e.g.casting lots & the Urim & Thummim, divination, Nehushtan the brazen serpent made by Moses ---- these are all forms of magic. The Apostles chose the replacement for Judas by casting lots [a form of divination]. What was forbidden was sorcery. Sorcery involves the use of forbidden magic to both Jews & Christians; IOW magic involving the practice & use of necromancy, demonology, demoniacal evocations, psychogones, lycanthrophy, human and/or [certain] animal sacrifice, cannibalism etc. Saul sought out the sorceress of Endor precisely because she engaged in sorcery, evoking demons & practicing necromancy [raising images of the dead] which both of them knew was forbidden. The reason why Thou shalt not allow a sorceress [kashaph] to live (Ex 22:18) is because they engage in FORBIDDEN magical practices Even Merrill F. Unger in his Bible Dictionary admits that "witch" was a poor translation choice for kashaph or pharmakeia [gal 5:20] which is more correctly translated as sorcery/sorcerer/sorceress and in some cases pharmakeia can also be translated as healer or one who heals. FWIW the Greek word pharmakeia is the source of our English words pharmacy, pharmacist & pharmacologist and no one would confuse them with "witches," "witchcraft," sorcerers OR sorcery. It is interesting to note that not even the 1769 Authorized Version uses the word witchcraft in Gal 5:20; it uses sorcery as does the NKJV, NRSV, REB & NAB. It's sorcery and its despicable practices Scripture condemns NOT magic per se. Unfortunately many Christians today don't take the time to do any real research instead they often rely on what others tell them or what they read in a online diatribe somewhere. Hope this helps.

Sophie-David	02 Jan 2005
jmd wrote: The link given above by Sophie-David with regards to Freemasonry is both factually incorrect and anti-Masonic - a little like this view on the 'New Age' and Tarot from the same site. Highly bias and filled with bigotry. (Another good example of their bigotry is their article on palmistry) If you would like to find some more worthwhile information and discussion on the various aspects of Freemasonry (including the many branches that are not gender exclusive - whether for men only or women only), then I would personally recommend: [center] Masonic Forum of Light [/center] Hi Jmd I'm sorry if you found the link offensive, that was not my intent. I did not introduce it as a neutral reference, but characterized in this way: "There is a fairly complete and concise but not particularly objective reference here", after mentioning that "It is difficult to find a neutral discussion of Masons on the Internet - its either strongly pro or con". The problem is that I could not readily find a reference in the pro-Masonic sites that would either reinforce or refute the point I wished to make, that Freemasonry is not associated with any particular religion, but can stand as a religion in itself. I would find it helpful if you could isolate a reference for me at the second site you quoted either for or against this proposition. I would also be interested exploring an earlier idea from this thread, what does "craft" means in the Masonic context, is it spiritually comparable to the "craft" of a Wiccan? I would hope that anyone using the Internet, or any other verbal media, would quickly be able to assess the "bias and bigotry" in non-neutral sources, either for or against. I did not see any particular difficulty in separating the facts from the bias in the parallel presentation on New Age. If one cannot find a neutral reference, one uses the polar ones that are available and then reads between the lines - I do not see anything particularly wrong with exercising ones discrimination in this, it seems to me to be a necessity. Printed material is less emphemeral than the Internet and more likely to be disciplined and neutral. For this reason I introduced the Joseph Campbell reference from The Power of Myth which I obviously could not link to. I would be interested in your impression of this source also. Setting aside this unfortunate negative reference, I would be much more interested in dialogue on the body of my post, which - I hope - was more on topic with BladeRaven's original inquiry. I notice that we are both agreed that the Tarot and the Church need not be in contradiction. There are wide variations in tolerance, understanding - and the valuation of the feminine -between the local incarnations of any of the organized religions, denominations and philosophies, including the Masonic, Roman Catholic and - in my case - Anglican. I find MoonGold's discrimination between "the organizational and the spiritual church" a helpful one. Also from The Power of Myth, Campbell mentions that when representatives of various religions get together at international conferences, it is the priests who have problems communicating, but the monks all speak the same language. Cheers David

huredriel	02 Jan 2005
Thank you also jmd for the link to the other site. They are both interesting. I would like to know more about my grandfather's involvement in the Masons and how it was related to his beliefs etc. but I don't think that is going to be possible to be honest. So all I know is that he was rather senior and I know that he was a very good person. Thank you and Sophie-David anyway. On a side note though, isn't it great that we can all come together on this site, with our many varied beliefs and be able to discuss things like this. I think it's absolute wonderful. x Huredriel

jmd	02 Jan 2005
Just so that there is no misunderstanding, I was not in the least offended by Sophie-David in giving the anti-Masonic link, but rather took the opportunity to comment on the site itself. Personally, I do not see Freemasonry, any more than Tarot, as itself a 'religion' - though each has religious or spiritual qualities. I realise that this is one of the common claims made against Freemasonry in especially the USA (and we hence also get quite a few reflections of the same here). From my perspective, both Tarot and Freemasonry arise out of the same Christian impulse that begins to come to light in the flowering of the 12th and 13th century, and each come to see the light of day of their own accord in the 16th and 17th centuries. Why I claim (and the various Masonic Grand Lodges also claim) that Freemasonry is not a religion is for precisely similar reasons that Tarot is likewise itself not a religion: each person may partake whilst totally maintaining their own faith (unless, of course, their religion forbids it - as also the Nazi regime did). To try to find a Freemasonic site that therefore presented itself such that it 'can stand as a religion in itself' would be a little like finding a Tarot site that presented itself such that it presented Tarot as 'a religion in itself'. Neither has dogma (though most, but not all, Freemasonic constitutions require belief 'in a supreme being' - for some Freemasons here, this corresponds with their Wiccan, Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Islamic, ...or many other views - and personally know various Freemasons of each of those faiths). Nonetheless, and having mentioned this, there was a discussion on the nature of Freemasonry and Religion on another board last year - in effect a number of us arguing for the intrinsic spiritual value of Freemasonry, its historical connections to both Judaism and Christianity, and that it may indeed, and despite its proper status, serve as 'substitute religion' for some of its members. Similarly, I would argue, Tarot may likewise be used as a basis for one's personal Religion. Neither, of themselve, is, however, such. In various parts of the world, and certainly here, a significant number of especially Anglicans (and their priests) have in the past been Freemasons - but then, there was a time in Australia that there were probably more non-Catholic and yet Christian adult men that were Freemasons than not... numerous small towns bear witness to this tradition, and Masonic records highlight the pervasiveness of the Craft. It is also in this context that the Tarot, as acquired by men (and I use the term in its modern non-generic form) interested in symbolic representation and spiritual iconography, have likewise developed, in addition to Freemasonry, an interest in Tarot. To those who question one's interest in Tarot and in Christianity, the question remains, as far as I'm concerned, why they see a problem!

Sophie-David	02 Jan 2005
Hi Jmd Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate the distinction regarding Freemasonry, "that it may indeed, and despite its proper status, serve as 'substitute religion' for some of its members. Similarly, I would argue, Tarot may likewise be used as a basis for one's personal Religion. Neither, of themselve, is, however, such." I have seen these two citations before: "Joseph Fort Newton (1880-1950), an Episcopal minister and recognized authority in the Masonic world, said, 'Masonry is not a religion but Religion -- not a church but a worship in which men of all religions may unite.'" "Henry Wilson Coil is the author of the encyclopedia that many lodges now accept as their authoritative source (Coil's Masonic Encyclopedia). Coil says that if Freemasonry is not a religion, nothing would have to be added to make it such, and that the religious service at the funeral of a Mason is evidence enough that Freemasonry is a religion." I have no way to check the original sources. Would you consider that they are refering to the aspect of Freemasonry as a substitute religion, or perhaps they there is simply a spectrum of belief about the nature of Freemasonry, just as there are differences of interpretation within most organizations? Incidentally, there really is a Church of Tarot: http://www.denelder.com/ :)

mzoltarp	02 Jan 2005
Christian versus Tarot? The problem is what? Spirituality has many paths. I use tarot to he,p me be intuitive. It's not a replacement for my Catholocism. It is a tool that helps me get it touch with angels, Jesus, God, spirits, etc. Call me bizarre but I see links not barriers. Rider Waite is very Christian.

NightWing	04 Jan 2005
Yes, indeed. The Rider-Waite deck is very Christian in its imagery, and Waite's perspective was that of a Christian who was "into" esotericism. I don't think you could even call him a Gnostic Christian. He appears to have been too main-line for that.

Junia	29 Apr 2005
Garsh bladeraven, I don't think that I'd take a Bible or my Tarot Deck to work with the religious and anti-religious polarities at each other's throat in this day and age. You are a brave soul to even try. Your work place must be pretty healthy not to squelch any discussions on religious subjects. But, I think I'd advise, be careful, those kinds of things get people fired if someone is "looking for a reason." I get enough "hassle" from folks if I even look at my deck or read a Tarot book in public! Sound of old woman (me) clucking like a Turkey the day before Thanksgiving.

Julien	29 Apr 2005
Hi everyone, I'm joining this discussion late, but it's very interesting. I've been reading through several threads that are currently dealing with religion and Tarot (some of our friends are clearly struggling with authority figures who don't like their Tarot practice). It's stirred up some questions in my mind: Where has this idea that Tarot is evil come from historically? I know some things about the history of the notion of "evil" and "Satan" as well as the various forms of gnosticism that were also demonized by various religions. But specifically -- when did the Tarot become a "tool of Satan"? Also, it intrigues me that some forms of divination are seen as "holy" and others aren't by some Christians. So, having a dream, or a strong feeling, or opening the Bible randomly to see what God has to teach you is not considered all common practices among some of my born again Christian friends. Same friends think the Tarot is evil... My guess is that they don't conceive of it as a Christian practice, so culturally it is coded as "bad". But with all the Christian imagery in some decks, I don't understand... Especially some of the older decks... Can anyone explain? Any good reading materials on this topic (besides what's already posted in the thread). (By the way, I do think it makes some people who believe the Tarot is evil very horny to be near the cards or receive a reading... They seem to get quite a kick out of walking "on the wild side" and "flirting with evil". However, they also take that horniness as a sign that it's an evil thing... Sometimes the same people who think sex is just for procreation... There's a Freudian psychoanalysis worth doing there, I think.) Julien

Julien	29 Apr 2005
Up above I wrote: Also, it intrigues me that some forms of divination are seen as "holy" and others aren't by some Christians. So, having a dream, or a strong feeling, or opening the Bible randomly to see what God has to teach you is not considered all common practices among some of my born again Christian friends. I meant: Also, it intrigues me that some forms of divination are seen as "holy" and others aren't by some Christians. So, having a dream, or a strong feeling, or opening the Bible randomly to see what God has to teach you is not considered evil but are all common practices among some of my born again Christian friends.

Vadella	29 Apr 2005
I ignore ignorance. People will always fear what it unknown to them. It's only the open minded ones that I can actually talk to.

Fairawen	29 Apr 2005
I have a friend. Her name is Faith. Her brothers and sisters are all interesting names like that: Jerimiah (not so strange) Charity, ect. Faith's family is blissfully ignorant of anything that doesn't go on outside their little bubble. ...Did I say blissfully? They aren't blissful. Not in any respect of the word. They seem quite unhappy. I'd be unhappy too if I didn't go out and try and find out a little of everything, and find out more on things that I already know alot of. Comparing her family to my family, mine is the happy, outgoing family, and her's is the quite reserved, laughes at our pathetic jokes family. Really, I am both aggrivated at their lack of searching and pity their ignorance as well. It's really quite pathetic, if you think about it. Cooped up all day in your little box. What a sad life. Sorry, just had to say that. Something someone said here reminded me of her. She seems to think I'm waaaay to open and forward though. *sigh* I'm having a wonderful life. Can she say the same? ~Fairawen~

Junia	29 Apr 2005
Fairawen wrote: I have a friend. Her name is Faith. Her brothers and sisters are all interesting names like that: Jerimiah (not so strange) Charity, ect. Faith's family is blissfully ignorant of anything that doesn't go on outside their little bubble. . . . Sorry, just had to say that. Something someone said here reminded me of her. She seems to think I'm waaaay to open and forward though. *sigh* I'm having a wonderful life. Can she say the same? ~Fairawen~ It will be interesting to see say 30 years from now what you both turn out like. Life hands you a whole lot and wakes you up on both sides. I've met both the Faiths and Fairawens along the way (and at certain times have been one or the other or both). It is an amazing thing to "check back" and see what life throws at you. I have found that people with seemingly disparate viewpoints have a lot in common that has just to do with hanging around on old mother earth for a long while. I hope you two always keep in touch. Justice XI likes a balanced life. Maybe that is why you both connect. ;-) Sound of Old Turkey Gobbling before taking Tarot into the public "i" again.

The Christian Tarot Readers thread was originally posted on 01 Jan 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.