How to Conquer a "Mean" Deck?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 05 Jan 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Melpomone18	05 Jan 2005
I don't know about anyone else out there, but every deck that I have speaks to me with a different voice, which is why I have so many (well, not SO many in comparison to some here ). I've always found this a particulary enriching quality of Tarot. For instance I have my blunt decks (Hanson-Roberts), my gentle decks (Moon Garden), and my decks that give advice to me in an almost motherly-guidance way (Fey). But I also have in my collection one or two that seem to be especially mean and sarcastic. The one that's the worst for me is World Spirit. Now, I love this deck, I truly do, but I just feel as if it doesn't love me! It's such a beautiful deck and I'm sure that the problem is with me and my state of mind, but how to figure out exactly what it is and how to address it? Has anyone else ever had this happen to them with a particular deck? Or does anyone have any advice for meditations that I can do before reading? I'd feel silly selling such a lovely deck because "we can't get along."

Fulgour	05 Jan 2005
The World Spirit Tarot uses a lot of black coloring, and maybe it would help to use a flowery reading cloth with ambient lighting ~ and rock n roll music!

gypsy_morrigan	05 Jan 2005
That's really interesting, because the World Spirit is quite nice to me! In fact, it's my Golden--which looks like such a happy deck--that has been foiling my attempts to read with it. How is the World Spirit mean to you? Is it in the specific cards that come up, or is it just the tone of its 'voice' in the cards over all? Also, how long have you had it? You may just want to give up, if it's determined not to like you--you shouldn't have to change to accommodate it!

jumptothemoonyea	05 Jan 2005
what if every deck is a mirror, we are looking into, each curved differently, thus reflections varies..."Magic mirror on the wall, who is the fairest of them all?" :)

WalesWoman	05 Jan 2005
I don't have any advice, just wanted to chime in...I just got the Sacred Rose before Christmas (my present to me) and have discovered it can be very thorny. It seems like the spreads I've done so far with it can really puncture, illusions most especially. The descriptions, meditations and bits of poetry are really excellent as well as beautiful, but the DM's can draw blood. This was not at all what I expected from this deck. I'm not sure what I expected to be honest, but I'm a bit leary of reading with it "frivolously." I save it for the tough questions or if someone asks me to use it. The readings I have done with it have actually turned out very well, as per on target, but not neccessarily all touchy, feely and fuzzy. It definately is a rose...smells sweet, lovely to look at, but handle with care. Maybe it was a coincidence that many of the spreads so far had to deal with "thorny" subjects and it felt less than positive. Too funny, I never thought I'd hear myself talking about a deck's personality, not believing that they might have one and here I am doing it! So, in logic, it would be the reflection of the deck's creator's personality coming through rather than the cards themselves.

Milamber	05 Jan 2005
If I may, perhaps conquering it isn't what you need to do. The deck isn't really your enemy after all, or I'd imagine not anyway. By trying to conquer it, you may be creating a sort of aggressive or competitive mood, which could in turn be one cause of the problem. Instead, try considering how you think of the deck, rather than how the deck considers you. What sort of imagery or moods do you pick up from it? Perhaps that will lead to a better understanding of the deck. Even if you have continued trouble reading it in common readings, you may find a mood to the deck that will allow you to choose it in certain readings.

full deck	06 Jan 2005
Consider that some of what you feel is a psychological projection of your own. A deck is still just a deck of cards, with paint or ink upon them. The images may have more or less personal meaning to them, depending upon the symbols and how they are portrayed. Perhaps when you have freed your mind from what you see with your eyes, you will see the Tarot.

Fulgour	06 Jan 2005
full deck wrote: Consider that some of what you feel is a psychological projection of your own. A deck is still just a deck of cards, with paint or ink upon them. The images may have more or less personal meaning to them, depending upon the symbols and how they are portrayed... Perhaps when you have freed your mind from what you see with your eyes, you will see the Tarot. Your preference for Classic decks may have limited the experience many have had of being confronted by a deck with an edge to it. And yet I love the Ancient Tarot of Lomabardy for its gentleness!

Melpomone18	06 Jan 2005
Wow! Everyone's raised such good points. I didn't expect so many answers so quickly to my first thread. You guys are great! I know that all of the negative readings that I've gotten with this deck are definitely a reflection of my mindset when I'm reading with them. Since I see Tarot is a tool for self-exploration I know that if I keep seeing negative it's because I'm *being* negative for some reason. I can definitely see Milamber's point about possibly adjusting the rather aggressive stance I've taken with it as of late. Fulgour wrote: Your preference for Classic decks may have limited the experience many have had of being confronted by a deck with an edge to it. And yet I love the Ancient Tarot of Lomabardy for its gentleness! Actually this is an interesting point. I guess reviewing my Tarot collection does show that I definitely lean toward classic, gentle, or whimsical decks. And while World Spirit is a fabulous deck it's not really any of those things. I see it as contemporary, earthy, and very edgy. It's kind of the red herring of my collection. So perhaps it could be that I'm so used to reading with softer or more fantastical images.

Fulgour	06 Jan 2005
I was responding to the post by full deck when I referred to the Classic decks. full deck seemed to imply we were imagining it all.

Melpomone18	06 Jan 2005
Fulgour wrote: I was responding to the post by full deck when I referred to the Classic decks. full deck seemed to imply we were imagining it all. Oops, sorry, I see that now. At any rate it got me thinking :)

Fulgour	06 Jan 2005
Melpomone18 wrote: Oops, sorry, I see that now. At any rate it got me thinking :) That's Ok. The idea works in a way, and that may help. Maybe it's more that The Wild Spirit is so urban-active, kind of like it has a social agenda, more than an attitude. It might be too preachy, even when it tries being playful. I like the deck for just that reason, but don't read with it.

Cerulean	06 Jan 2005
I like to see the World Spirit used in spreads within tarot books because it has an edgy tone and the pictures in black and white look different than the decks that I would use for the same spread...I tend to use decks that look like the Neoclassical or Ancient Tarots of Lombardy in general in readings for others. Perhaps if you saw it used in a book such as Mark McElroy's Taking the Tarot to Heart, it might help you? Sometimes when I see the World Spirit, my kiddy-memory kicks in and sings about the "Tiki Room" or "It's A Small World" from erstwhile Southern California Disneyland memories. Here is one of those caffienated worlds where many colors dance in Disneyesque fantasy and vibrant people glow warmly in story. I gave away my deck because of my limitations... Oddly to me, I don't have that reaction to the Fey. The Fey seems to me like new anime in a way that is still interesting to me. It could also be that when I have lots of black in the decks that I enjoy, I usually prefer simpler color palettes...there's a feel of restraint in Lo Scarabeo's Gothic Tarot of the Vampires in terms of the color which seems to work with my reading preferences...some of my favored reading decks tend to use a great deal of white and black. Hope some of the chat or idea that I mentioned here might help... Cerulean

full deck	07 Jan 2005
Fulgour wrote: I was responding to the post by full deck when I referred to the Classic decks. full deck seemed to imply we were imagining it all. If I really understand you correctly, that is Exactly what I am saying. The personification of inanimate objects does not help unless one is performing in a Punch and Judy show. Personally, I like what "Milamber" wrote: Milamber wrote: "you think of the deck, rather than how the deck considers you. What sort of imagery or moods do you pick up from it?" That's another way of putting it in that we often put our moods into objects or situations. IMHO, A large part of using Tarot originates from one's use of their imagination and learning how to distinguish "moods" and other influences from seeing through the Tarot imagery. I feel that this is an important distinction that should be made.

crystal cove	07 Jan 2005
full deck wrote: If I really understand you correctly, that is Exactly what I am saying. The personification of inanimate objects does not help unless one is performing in a Punch and Judy show. Personally, I like what "Milamber" wrote: That's another way of putting it in that we often put our moods into objects or situations. IMHO, A large part of using Tarot originates from one's use of their imagination and learning how to distinguish "moods" and other influences from seeing through the Tarot imagery is an important distinction that should be made. I agree wholeheartedly with you, full deck. Personifying inanimate objects or even animals has always seemed like human arrogance and self centeredness to me.

Fulgour	07 Jan 2005
Inanimate objects "or even animals" are free to personify me if they choose to (and who is going to stop them), and since I am a human being, I am going to JOYFULLY act like one! :)

stella01904	07 Jan 2005
MM ~ No need to "personify" animals since they are just like us, anyway. And "inanimate" depends on your view, and often your religious beliefs. A traditional Native American will tell you that stones are alive, and I tend to go with that. Just because something doesn't use a cell phone doesn't mean it has no conciousness. The consciousness just manifests differently. I think all oracles have an Intelligence behind them, and I mean this in the magical sense, I'm using "Intelligence" the way Greer uses the word - as an entity. And they're like people, some you get on with, some you don't. Some you just need to get to know better, and some, well, forget it. My Runes have never liked my S.O. They've always said horrible things about him. Just the Runes, not any of the Tarot decks, or the Lenormands, or anything else. BB, Stella PS I just wanted to add that the Intelligence is BEHIND the deck. If my house was on fire and I had a choice of either getting my kids or my decks out, well, I'm not stupid! The cardboard can burn. I'll get replacement decks - so I can once again communicate with the Intelligence! Just wanted to point that out before it gets all twisted up. But a deck is not "inanimate" in the sense that say, a cheeseburger wrapper is...

Azezel	11 Jan 2005
The person who taught (is still teaching) me possesses many decks. One which she uses often is the crowley thoth. She told me once that when she first bought it it was most uncooperative. That it was trite and thorny. She went on to say that in the end she laid each card out face up, stood and said out loud 'You work for me! I ask, you answer! Play nice or you'll never see the light again!' She told me this as she was trying to make the point that each deck has a different voice. She says that these cards have never misbehaved since. Frankly, neither would I if she told me off. but When I told this story to someone else, they were scandalized to here of someone treating their cards this way. I suppose the mesage is, some people can and some can't.

tarotbear	12 Jan 2005
Azezel has the right idea, and I do the same type of thing periodically. I have a lot of decks but work with only a few of them and when you have a lot of experience, you get to understand the 'feel ' of a deck rather quickly. There are times I can tell the deck is lying to me ( no - it's not in my head!) -giving me the answer that i would like to hear - not the answer I need. When this happens, I take the deck and put it together and take the long edge of the deck and SLAP IT HARD AGAINST THE TABLE TOP! I usually accompany this with am admonishment such as 'KNOCK IT OFF!- I need a straight answer - not this poetic crap!' Sometimes the truth is not pretty, and I don't accept pretty answers. Shocking your deck every now and then might be the best thing to do to it. Remember,a deck is only a tool, but you need a tool that you can trust.

spoonbender	12 Jan 2005
Sure. You know, I have this pen and every time I write with it, I get ink stains. So I guess the only possible conclusion is that he hates me and is being mean, right :rolleyes:? It sounds very VERY VERY naive to me to say that decks are "being mean" or are "telling lies". And then after you slap them, they behave themselves better??? Well maybe I should start slapping that pen I have too :rolleyes:. It's very easy, though, saying that tarot decks can predict the future, but then saying that they can also lie... If cards turn up that are completely off and can't be interpreted in any other way, the logical conclusion would be that Tarot can't predict the future. And stella01904, since when are animals just like us :eek:??? That's news to me! (I had a talk with my cat about this, and she told me that she also doesn't agree :rolleyes:.) I sincerely hope that I misunderstood you guys and that you were just joking. I really do. Spoon

Fudugazi	12 Jan 2005
spoonbender wrote: Well maybe I should start slapping that pen I have too :rolleyes:. If that's what you do to your pen, no wonder it weeps all over you. Seriously, though, I can understand why some people might find some decks uncooperative. As full deck said, it could be personal projection; but I have an alternative explanation: it could be that in certain decks certain symbols (shapes, colours, etc.) play on something in our unconscious which we are resisting. We all know the power of symbols - these lie not in their formal meanings (though the meanings can add to the experience) but in their quality of experience. That's why they are so common in initiation rites, in ritual (religious or secular), in all kinds of social positioning or adherence to a certain set of beliefs or way of life. Even in merchandising! A true symbol speaks to more than just the intellect or the emotions; though we immediately apprehend it, yet its reach is long and unconscious, even if you do not "believe" in symbols (being rooted in experience rather than intellectual or social construct, symbols are not things one can believe or not believe in. Either it speaks to you - to more than your intellect - or it doesn't). Given the route the symbolic charge take in our unconscious, it is not surprising that some of them will simply attract resistance, which might be just as unconsicous. Therefore, even though we might like a deck for its art, classicism, gentleness, power, etc., there might be some of the symbols it uses that we either cannot apprehend, or that we can and resist. This does not explain why telling your deck to stop playing up works for some` A psychologist might answer that. It could simply be that by focussing on overcoming resistance to symbols, these symbols are allowed more unfettered access.

Azezel	12 Jan 2005
Spoonbender. In fact I am still not convinced that tarot or anything else can predict the future. My results have been compelling, but not yet conclusive. as for telling my cards to behave. Well, mine have never missbehaved. My instructress is a beleiver, and considers the cards to be a conduit. In the smae way that diferent shaped nozles will produce diferent shaped jets of water, different cards will produce diferent styles of answer. But it is always the same water, always the same future. This is how she explained it to me. As for telling her cards of, I suppose she might say that it is the same as hitting a water nozle with a hammer until the shape of the jet was what one desired.

tarotbear	12 Jan 2005
O.K. - maybe 'lie' is the wrong term, but possibly when you get really silly answers from your deck, it is a sign that you need to get your own act together. So, I slap my deck around -- who cares! If I knock the lack of focus away and can get to the correct source ... Does passing your deck through burning smoke really 'clean' it? Does sleeping with the deck under your pillow for three nights really make you 'bond' with your deck? Probably not, but if it is what works for you, then it is what works for you. PS - I cleanse my deck between multiple readings by slapping the long edge against the table, too.

Keslynn	12 Jan 2005
That was a great insight, Helvetica! Insightful stuff. Once I started thinking about it, it seems to correspond with my personal experiences. I have had decks that gave me "mean" readings. Those were also the decks whose artwork never wowed me, but I had decided to try them out anyway for one reason or another. The decks I click with, where I can pick up on all the little symbols and go on for hours, those always give me honest helpful readings no matter what. :) Kes

Imagemaker	12 Jan 2005
Great thread! When a thread I've not read gets longer and longer, I always find I've been missing good stuff. Quote: not "inanimate" in the sense that say, a cheeseburger wrapper is... Is that insensitivity to the depth and wisdom potential of cheesburger wrappers? LOL Just asking. (There must be so many kinds and varieties of messages printed on them.) I think that shouting at a deck to get more honest answers is simply an enactment of a message to the subconscous/Tarot/Higher Self (whatever you want to call the intelligence) that you truly want honesty. There may be another facet of the Self that wishes for something more comfortable, though illusory. We are all One, expressed in infinite forms--sometimes we have to talk to ourselves in emphatic ways to get the message through the innumerable filters.

Azezel	12 Jan 2005
Imagemaker wrote: We are all One, expressed in infinite forms--sometimes we have to talk to ourselves in emphatic ways to get the message through the innumerable filters. Imagemaker Sounds like rather a taoist sentiment. Certainly if the act of shouting at/striking/cleansing/sleeping with the cards makes the reader feel better, then that may solve the problem without actualy effecting the cards. I suppose it depends on wether one beleives the cards themselves are the orcale, or merely a tool for some more discrete force. I am not sure which, (or in fact if either) is the correct answer. Whatever works for a given reader, I don't think I should pass judgement.

tarotbear	13 Jan 2005
This is meant to be slightly tongue-in-cheek. A Tarot deck is an inanimate object; it is a tool but is not an oracle. It has no moving parts; if you rip a card in half nothing falls out, no machinery is inside, whirling demons do not fly out. Tarot cards are paper, ink, and a thin plastic coating. Tarot is not supported by science, cannot be defined by science, and cannot be proven by science. It we were to accept that flat statement as final, then we are all under some grand delusion. Why should be believe in tarot? The defining moment is that we do. Tarot is a creation of the mind, and no scientist can tell you why a mass of fat cells and neurons gives you a capacity for learning, intelligence, or reason. We believe in Tarot. Being a product of our minds, we define it by our understanding of it. Why else would you hold a pack of 78 images so dearly? Because it is a product of our minds, it works the way our minds work, or conversely, does not work the way our minds don't work. Tarot is a tool for whatever reason you use to comfort yourself when the skeptics and naysayers demand some reasonable explanation for your fascination. Pity people whose minds are too small to grasp what we so strongly hold on to. For this reason, whatever you conceive Tarot to be or how it works or even why or if it works is up to the individual using the cards. If you are one of those people who treats their Tarot deck like a sentient object - that works for you. If you bury your cards every dark moon and dig them up every new moon-that works for you. If you slap them around because they are giving you a pain - that works, too, and there is no one who can tell you that what you are doing is wrong if it works for you. Life is too short to accept someone else's way of doing things if it just doesn't work for you. Stop wasting your time and energy! ...we now return you to our regularly scheduled program already in progress....

Fudugazi	13 Jan 2005
tarotbear wrote: If you slap them around because they are giving you a pain - that works, too, and there is no one who can tell you that what you are doing is wrong if it works for you. As I read this, the image of the Queen of Swords rose in front of me - she got up off her throne, turned and put her free hand on her hip, brandishing her sword: "No-one is going to push Me around, Sir Slap!" Careful who you take on ;)

tao51	13 Jan 2005
I never really thought of the World Spirit as a mean deck. I can see how you derived at this concept. I do feel that a particular Tarot decks has a certain appeal because it is dark or has a gothic feel to it. I have several dark decks. I find that the World Spirit has striking use of colors in the illustrations. I would try to luse it when you are examining or reading darker emotions or events.--Tao

The How to Conquer a "Mean" Deck? thread was originally posted on 05 Jan 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.