Politically Correctness in Tarot: Death vs Transformation
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 19 Jan 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| closrapexa |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
There are those who prefer to refer to the Death card as Transformation, and there are many decks coming out the don't refer to Death as Death at all, but by some other name.
In my opinion, Death, in Tarot and elsewhere is hardly something to be afraid of, and it cannot be controlled. Such name-changinging seems like over compensating for people's fears of the particular card, and perhaps even feeding those fears.
What do you think?
|
| contradiction |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
i agree with the principal of what you said. BUT, in my experience the death card rarely refers to actual death. i have had it happen, once it 15 years of reading tarot. but the death card shows up on a regular basis, when there is a change taking place within or around the person the reading is for. this is why i read the card as transformation.
btw, i am the least politically correct person you will ever meet. i try not to hurt people's feelings, but i call a duck a duck, a garbage man is a garbage man, not a sanitation engineer.
|
| closrapexa |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
i agree with the principal of what you said. BUT, in my experience the death card rarely refers to actual death..
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I was referring to the Death card as a card of change, since I have never, really, seen it as a real death. But then, Death comes in many forms, and every one of them is "real" in the sense that something ends, be it a phase in life, life itself or a television show...
|
| Francesca |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
When card artists try to prettify things and give upsetting cards new names or images, often you end up with redundancy in the deck.
Why would you need to re-name death to transformation? The judgement card does the transformation job perfectly well.
It bothers me when people try to put a cheery spin on the dark cards. It's a form of dishonesty. Like the 10 of Swords. THere's just nothing bright about that card.
Francesca
|
| mercenary30 |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
I had a big long tirade about this a few months back. I am less than thrilled when this change is made for the wrong reasons. I call those Seseme Street decks, and I refuse to read with them or even own them. (Connolly and Gill for example)
I still kind of appreciate the old school tarot that did not name this card at all!!! It was just XIII. That was cool.
|
| Ceit |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
I think a deck needs to have a balance of light and dark. I personally like the darker cards. I don't understand the need to candy coat the Death card and the ten of swords they are what they are.
|
| Astraea |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
Like Contradiction, I agree with you in principle. However, as students of tarot, we pretty much live and breathe the meanings of the cards and we tend to appreciate each one in its archetypal fullness; clients, on the other hand, are often frightened of tarot, and specifically of having the Death card appear in a reading. At such times, our soothing words about the card meaning change and transition can sound like waffling at best, fabrication at worst. So I think that decks with changed titles on some of the cards can serve a useful purpose, especially at the introductory level with respect to anxious clients. Personally, the Death card is among my favorites, and it's always one of the cards that can sell me on a deck -- but I don't object to decks in which the title is changed, given the emotional fragility and even outright paranoia of some clients facing a crushing problem.
|
| April |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
In my opinion, Death, in Tarot and elsewhere is hardly something to be afraid of, and it cannot be controlled. Such name-changinging seems like over compensating for people's fears of the particular card, and perhaps even feeding those fears.
I think I disagree with you on both points. First, is Death something to be afraid of? Absolutely! If we're talking actual physical death, yes some people should fear death. Namely, those people who aren't headed towards the pleasantest of afterlifes. }) Not only that, but we can't help but fear the unknown, and I beleive man will never ever get over his fear of death. Why is it necessary that he should accept it? Lots of people go kicking and screaming into death everyday and I don't think those last few moments of freaking out have any effect on an afterlife determined by a whole life's work. Fear is a healthy emotion and it often keeps us safe from harm. It keeps us alert and prepares us for potential danger. If I didn't have a little fear in me, I would get mugged every weekend. Fear is what makes me take a cab.
Second, I'm one of those Tarot liberals, so I don't have a problem with changing the names of cards. If the Death card means transformation, why can't we just call it transformation? Either way is fine with me. As I think we can all agree, Death almost never means actual physical death, sometimes calling it change or transformation, even just in our own heads, makes a lot more sense. As for over compensation and feeding people's fears, I just don't see it. I would think it maybe does the opposite.
Peace,
April
|
| jumptothemoonyea |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
I suggest we rename the Death card, because according to dictionary.com it means:
1. The act of dying; termination of life.
2. The state of being dead.
which is not politically correct meaning of the XIII card.
Let's call it:
a) an 'End' before a Beginning
b) 'Close' the door please, before entering another
c) 'Winter' time before Spring
d) return to 'Nothing' before new Spark
the question is - what is the origin of our sorrow at the End of something? is it part of 'the end' archetype? or an emotional imprint conditioned by mass consciousness, or our Higher Self making us suffer to teach us a lesson? or just the minus before the plus of electro-magnetic waves?
|
| Fudugazi |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
I think transformation is a good term. After all, even the most dedicated of materialist atheist agrees that our body transforms after death and goes to feed other matter. Nothing is ever lost, nothing disappears. It only transforms. Of course, if you use the Tarot de Marseille you don't have that dilemma. XIII is not named.
|
| Shade |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
I think there are a great number of cards that represent transformation, Death (to me) means transformation in a very specific way. When I get the card I don't think oh something new is coming I think ah something current is ending.
I particularly liked the way Death is depicted in the Fey tarot as an un-winnable game. Creating something new and making the best of change is (to me) a choice and is not always guaranteed by the appearance of the Death card.
|
| huredriel |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
Let's call it:
a) an 'End' before a Beginning
b) 'Close' the door please, before entering another
c) 'Winter' time before Spring
d) return to 'Nothing' before new Spark
Actually in my deck, Tarot of the Old Path, this has been re-named The Close
|
| mercenary30 |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
To me death has many more possible meanings and permeations than transformation does. Why restrict the card to just a subset of its true meaning?
|
| Fudugazi |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
To me death has many more possible meanings and permeations than transformation does. Why restrict the card to just a subset of its true meaning?
But to some Death means dead end.
That's why I like it unnamed, you can play with the whole range of possibilities associated with the symbol, rather than get attached to the word.
|
| mercenary30 |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
But to some Death means dead end.
That's why I like it unnamed, you can play with the whole range of possibilities associated with the symbol, rather than get attached to the word.
I agree with you on that one. I did state in my first post that I rather liked the original premise for the card numbered XIII.
|
| Red Emma |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
Okay, here's where Red Emma earns her name as a revolutionary and gets drummed out of the corps.
First about political correctness. I found, in my street fighting for women's rights in the sixties and seventies, those -- especially older men -- who didn't want the world to change, who wanted to keep on keeping women and minorites 'in their place' resorted to the denigrating term, political correctness. It seemed to make them feel a bit better to denigrate the changes which shook their world, while we shakers kept right on rattling the rafters. Now my granddaughter can apply to medical school and be accepted or rejected on the merits of her scholarship and her abilities.
Now about death vs transformation. Once when reading for a teen age friend of my teen age granddaughter, the death card came up. It rattled the both of them so badly neither of them heard anything else I said. As an aside, in a few weeks the young friend got herself into a jam and ended up in juvenile detention. Was that death or transformation?
Now to bring my whole family into it, my grandmother used to say, "You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar." I see the use of harsh terms in some tarot decks and their books as counter-productive. The idea is to deliver a message to your client. If the vocabulary you use is too harsh, you may as well save your breath. The client will either not hear you at all, or use the protective measure of re-arranging in his mind whatever you said. And all you efforts will be as naught.
Okay, now you know about Red Emma and political correctness. Her actions were the death card -- or transformation -- of a sexist, racist society. And she's quite proud of it.
|
| jumptothemoonyea |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
That's why I like it unnamed, you can play with the whole range of possibilities
this reminded me of the first lines in Lao Tzu: Tao te Ching
The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.
The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.
here is one of the links: http://www.mindfully.org/Tao-Te-Ching-Lao-tzu.htm
and the smart one should do this:
"Therefore the sage manages affairs without doing anything, and conveys his teachings without the use of speech."
so what do we do: be eternally real and silent, or name them and be not real? :)
|
| MeeWah |
19 Jan 2005 |
|
The term "death" encompasses a greater variety of meanings & associations. The reaction to it may be a matter of the personal associations, cultural or societal conditioning. It is not dependent on the intellect nor logic.
In metaphysical terms, death is not an ending per se but a transformation or change of energy; an evolutionary process. Hence, its spiritual meaning is "transformation".
In physical or material terms, it is a literal or figurative end to a cycle or phase of an activity including a life pattern of any kind. Whether it involves an actual life, a relationship, employment, residence, etc--to cloak it otherwise seems contrary.
That stated--I like Tarot of the Old Path's card of "The Close", defined as "...change, transformation, alteration."
|
| cSpaceDiva |
20 Jan 2005 |
|
When I was first starting out, I liked the concept of changing the name. Transformation seemed to have a broader meaning. Now that I understand it better and can explain to people that it may be a relationship dying, a bad habit, etc. etc. I like "Death" better. Transformation seems like it could just transform back, but death is so final, so irreversible.
I had a big long tirade about this a few months back. I am less than thrilled when this change is made for the wrong reasons. I call those Seseme Street decks, and I refuse to read with them or even own them. (Connolly and Gill for example)
Hmmm. Card 13 in the Gill deck is a cloaked figure with large dark wings. Its bony hands are gripping a long, menacing scythe. On the cloak, there appears a skull, but where the cloak pulls aside to reveal the face, there is nothing but black. At the foot of the figure is a pool of blackness and blood. Also, the card is titled "death". Not exactly Sesame Street.
I also like the idea of the cards being unnamed--not just death but all of them. Probably not what I would have wanted when I was starting out though.
|
| Fudugazi |
20 Jan 2005 |
|
In physical or material terms, it is a literal or figurative end to a cycle or phase of an activity including a life pattern of any kind.
Or you could see it as actual physical death being a transformation - as our dead bodies decompose they transform into something else and feed the rest of creation. It's a more radical interpretation, but it's still a material transformation - I think the metaphyiscal idea came from the physical observation: since our bodies go on to other uses after death, surely, then, must our souls, since nothing in the universe is ever lost?
BTW, I'd say transformation and end of cycle are related.
|
| Rosanne |
20 Jan 2005 |
|
In a reading I say i.e"when the Death card appears..." it can mean Transformation, closure, the end of this cycle.. change hits us no matter what our station in life etc etc. I have never seen it as someone literally dying. I agree that I would prefer the Card to remain untitled for all the shades of a death to be expressed.
|
| mercenary30 |
20 Jan 2005 |
|
Hmmm. Card 13 in the Gill deck is a cloaked figure with large dark wings. Its bony hands are gripping a long, menacing scythe. On the cloak, there appears a skull, but where the cloak pulls aside to reveal the face, there is nothing but black. At the foot of the figure is a pool of blackness and blood. Also, the card is titled "death". Not exactly Sesame Street.
Ooops, you are right. Now I wonder what other deck turned me off......
|
| tarotbear |
20 Jan 2005 |
|
It's kind of onteresting that in one thread people are saying that because of one image in one particular deck that they can 'never' use the deck in public, and here it's like ooooooooo! Can't use the "Death" card because someone will get upset!
A good reader should be able to explain a card to the Querent in a way that they can understand, even if they have to talk down. Now, I am aware that when you flip over a card and it says "DEATH" in half-inch tall letters that it will possibly upset the Querent and you will have to explain as calmly as possible that the Death card deals in the death of a past way of living or whatever you need to say to reassure the Querent that they or someone close to them is not going to die.
If you want a deck to be 'politically correct' then get one with 78 World cards in it; you will be sure not to upset everyone and all their readings will be hunky-dory. In The Tarot of the Soul- the author removed every negative thing she could from the deck because she felt that life was negative enough without having tarot reinforce it. That is exactly the reason there are negative cards in the deck. You must deal with your problems and see things that are not pleasant to make you change the things you don't like.
It is one thing to act with taste and decorum; obviously a deck with depictions of forced sex or guresome tortures is not the thing to bring when you do readings at a Women's Center. But if you're going to try 'sanitizing' the Death card to make it saleable at a Hallmark store - then you should rethink why you read Tarot to begin with.
Just my two cents ....
|
| Chara |
20 Jan 2005 |
|
To be honest, I don't really have a preference, and I don't always view that change as a matter of being politically correct as much as an attempt to be more accurate (as many people don't consider "Death" to be the right word to use for what they feel the card means).
I've just gotten my Tarot of the Old Path deck, which -as mentioned here- has Death as "The Close". Looking at the imagery of this card, I simply could not imagine it being called "Death". That word doesn't fit.
However, in some of my other decks - The Housewives Tarot, for example - the word Death is appropriate to me.
Neither card (or deck, for that matter) is better than the other to me. One doesn't give more effective readings than the other, or have any more meaning.
However, I'm quite sure that one day I'll come across a deck that has made this change, and I won't appreciate it. If the change is made for reasons that "feel" right, I don't see any reason why it should make a difference. If it was done for the sole purpose of "Death just sounds icky!" than I may not aprpeciate it as much.
(It kind of reminds me of cards that keep the name of "The Devil" but don't actually feature a traditional devil figure in it. I get the meaning of that card much more in my Robin Wood and Housewives Tarot than I do in in any other deck, and the closest part of The Devil in The Housewives Tarot is the little horns on the devil food cake. If you get the meaning, don't worry about it!)
|
| fluffy |
20 Jan 2005 |
|
I have to agree with almost all of the above, i would rather not sanitise the death card or any other - what is the point? As long as explanations are made that death does not mean a literal death of a physical person ( although it may do, but this is very unlikely), there should be no problem with the questioner understanding it. The point of the tarot (only in my humble opinion) is to teach us about life and how to deal with it - the good and the bad so what is the point if every card is happy? There is nothing to learn from every card being about the joys of life because people do experience pain and unpleasant changes this is what makes the tarot such a great tool for understanding, to enable us to let go of the bad bits and embrace the great bits!
Love fluffy
|
| huredriel |
20 Jan 2005 |
|
I've just gotten my Tarot of the Old Path deck, which -as mentioned here- has Death as "The Close". Looking at the imagery of this card, I simply could not imagine it being called "Death". That word doesn't fit.
Hi Chara,
LOL - it's lovely isn't it. This is my one and only deck and I love it to bits. The Death card is fantastic, one of my main favourites and I agree that the Close feels appropriate here, especially since it's feels such a good card.
x Huredriel
|
| closrapexa |
20 Jan 2005 |
|
I must say that I am surprised. I ranted about about the new "pretty" decks that make Tarot something that, in my mind, is "nice" and "safe." I never expected this kind of reaction.
Death, in any deck, is my favorite card. Un the Thoth, it is one of the most powerful Deaths that I have seen. In the unpublished Vespertine Tarot, the Death is my favorite.
Yes, Death is the End. To me it means the End of something. What comes after the Death is out of the scope of that particular card. All the talk about Death being a phase, a big change or all of that, well, it weakens the card. Unless the Death in a spread means actual death, which most of us have never seen, obviously it is a phase. Yes, there is always tomorrow, but today
something is Ending. What was, is no more. Kaput!
Not meaning to sound fatalistic or depressive. Really!!:)
|
| paradoxx |
20 Jan 2005 |
|
Death in the Shapeshifter and Osho Zen is Transformation, but the concept of 'the end' still remains. The same argument can be applied to the Devil Card or for that matter any of the Major Arcania.
The truth is that Tarot is by far more and more accessable and as long as the traditional archetype remains in effect, using synonyms does in fact work, if not for you, then for others. Each deck has its own personality, and perhaps they lose something when they don't use the word 'death' but then again, they add something when they replace it with another word thus altering the tradition.
Altering traditions in and of itself seems to be the very nature of Tarot, to change oneself and ones opinion about something using the concepts of symbol and word combination diviniation tempred with reason and logic.
Later
|
| Emily |
21 Jan 2005 |
|
I have decks that use 'Transformation' and 'Death' - I don't really have a preference but I think that if you use a deck with Death named as Death in and it comes up in someones reading then you have to make them realise that it doesn't mean Death fullstop.
I once talked an old boyfriend into having his first tarot reading, a very long time ago with the 1JJ Swiss. He was very nervous and I'd spent a while reassuring him that it would be fine. I turned the first card over 'Death' - his faced paled and he didn't hear anything else of the reading, which saying that I was very new and very young was good lol. He never asked for me to read for him again and we broke up around 2 weeks later - see that was the Death lol :D
Edited to add:-
The Death card of the 1JJ Swiss is La Mort and has the skeleton and scythe - pretty much sums it up lol
|
| HOLMES |
21 Jan 2005 |
|
if i was to rename the death card it would be.. hmm thananatos ? the pruning ?
i see nothing wrong with light over darkness since darkness is just an illusions, example last summer i lost my cousin, this fall i lost a friend, at christmas i lost an aquintance and friend. and just this week i lost my homemaker and friend as well. ( five people out of a small reserve of 50 poeple is afecting every one )
as i go down there i dont' lament saying whyyyy, i go down there and look at the old skins and know their energy bodies have transformed, that they are free. who know perhpas they are recairnating right now as we speak.
perhaps death can be called the castoff ?
death is a matter of belief,, some think that the universe is out to get us (from people around me ) that that is the end no going forward and it will happen to us so why continue ( depression there )
it come down to your ideal of god, or godess, and the universe..
ps.
what about sacrice vs new view, devil evil vs materialism, judgement vs letting go , and so forth for other threads title like this one ?
|
| other |
21 Jan 2005 |
|
When card artists try to prettify things and give upsetting cards new names or images, often you end up with redundancy in the deck.
Why would you need to re-name death to transformation? The judgement card does the transformation job perfectly well.
It bothers me when people try to put a cheery spin on the dark cards.
Francesca
Agreed! The whole 'PC' in general is all well in good -- in Tarot, in society, in mixed company -- but oftentimes it's just a matter of semantics. What is infused into a word or thought or intention or interpretation is what matters. There are many interpretations to every card in every different reading for every different person. That's life. Sometimes it's loaded with clarity, brightness and smooth sailing, other times it's confusing and dark and takes us on a ride we're not sure we want to be on, but 'white-washing' or diluting any of life's experiences or any of Tarot's meanings doesn't help anyone face what one is intended to transcend. And that's where the light really is, isn't it? In the facing of something dark and scary and working straight through it into a light we can really "own." Ya can't own if you deny...
|
| Red Emma |
21 Jan 2005 |
|
First about political correctness......Now about death vs transformation. ... . And on and on. Cough! Cough! Red face!
Take a person who's much too impulsive for her own good, add a liberal dose of depression, then give one of her hot buttons a good tweak. You get a rant which, when read the next morning, deeply embarrasses the good old gal.
Sorry, guys.
|
| Fudugazi |
21 Jan 2005 |
|
And on and on. Cough! Cough! Red face!
Take a person who's much too impulsive for her own good, add a liberal dose of depression, then give one of her hot buttons a good tweak. You get a rant which, when read the next morning, deeply embarrasses the good old gal.
Sorry, guys.
Oh no, no, no! Don't apologise, Red Emma!
I loved that post of yours. Straight from the gut, true and direct. I like to know there are real people behind the funny names ;)
And I am proud of you. Speaking from the generation after you, I couldn't have done it without your transforming energy. The old patriarchy is not quite dead, but it's on its last legs, at least in the West. Now for the rest of the World, sisters!
There are times I wish Death to mean Death.
|
| RedMaple |
22 Jan 2005 |
|
I want to second that, Red Emma. I loved your rant. You lived up to your name. LOL And you are totally right about the political correctness thing - it hugely annoys me, since the only real political correctness in America is racist, sexist, ageist, homophobic, classist, ableist, business as usual. Anything that challenges that is denigrated as "pc" -- a brilliant move on the part of those who want things to remain as they are.
But....I disagree with you on the Death card. And although I understand the difficulties of people who see the card and can't hear what you're saying about it -- it is part of their learning that Death is part of the cycle of everything in our lives. And we grieve, and begin again. That's the hard truth. Transformation is a pale abstraction in comparison. It lacks power. That is my main problem with changing the names of the cards -- usually it dilutes the power.
But then, I actually would prefer it if we had more concrete names for some of the abstract cards like Justice or Strength. I always think "the lady with the lion" for strength, the "horn player" for Judgment. Hmmmm. Maybe I need to do my own deck. LOL
|
| Kit |
22 Jan 2005 |
|
To me death has many more possible meanings and permeations than transformation does. Why restrict the card to just a subset of its true meaning?
I agree- transformation is somehow shallower and lends itself less to the imagination. What's so scary about Death, anyway? Unless you have a huge aversion (sp?) to change...
|
| Fudugazi |
22 Jan 2005 |
|
I agree- transformation is somehow shallower and lends itself less to the imagination. What's so scary about Death, anyway? Unless you have a huge aversion (sp?) to change...
Hence the beauty of not giving the card a name - just letting that strong figure stand on its own...
|
| Sulis |
22 Jan 2005 |
|
I prefer to call Trump 13 Death because death is scary for a lot of people - Transformation just doesn't have the same impact. Other cards are about transformation anyway.
Death is a transformation that is inevitable; there's no running away from it, no choice in the matter. It's there whether the thought of it terrifies you or not. Then from the sadness and grief that goes along with death comes something new.
Death should definately not be changed - it should be Death.
Sulis xx
|
| HOLMES |
22 Jan 2005 |
|
clients come to the tarot readers to get scared?
hey the death card that means i am goin to die,,
no it means that there is a big natural transformation going in in your life and you can't stop it..
"ohhh" but in the client mind they still thinking it is death and someone they know will die.
should the devil be named devil as well ? no it doesnt' mean there is someone trying to put black magic on you, it means that there is a bondage or lack of personal power in your life..
death and the devill , i am cursed, the client walks out thinking despite our lack of conviction for perhaps.
but if the title was growth and bondage instead of death and devil. that might lessen their fears.
for sure sometimes clients come to get their little jollies i know a few eheh.
|
| cSpaceDiva |
22 Jan 2005 |
|
Transformation means something is changing, death means it is OVER. Yes, it also means the way has been cleared for something else to take its place, but whatever was there before, is no more.
I seriously doubt whether a client who cannot grasp this is going to truly understand the rest of the reading either.
:TDEAT
|
| gareth. |
22 Jan 2005 |
|
The sheer number of responses here to the Death card tells us something about the way we view the concept.It is deep within our inner selves but change is so similar and sometimes equally challenging.I usually read the card as a move to a different direction as otherwise it is too difficult to take on board.G
|
| Red Emma |
22 Jan 2005 |
|
clients come to the tarot readers to get scared?
death and the devill , i am cursed, the client walks out thinking despite our lack of conviction for perhaps.
but if the title was growth and bondage instead of death and devil. that might lessen their fears.
Holmes,
Thy name is wisdom.
|
| other |
23 Jan 2005 |
|
Transformation means something is changing, death means it is OVER. Yes, it also means the way has been cleared for something else to take its place, but whatever was there before, is no more.
I seriously doubt whether a client who cannot grasp this is going to truly understand the rest of the reading either.
:TDEAT
Good point -- they're called 'querents' b/c they're seeking answers. Not comfort. A valuable experience for any querent** is to see that death card, get uncomfortable and scared, but then quickly learn that this is NOT to be feared, but...maybe...to be embraced. Or at least explored and interpreted.
A great metaphor for anything disappointing and/or scary in life. For me, Tarot is about getting closer to the truth.
(**Of course, this could exclude very young querents or querents with special needs or disfunctions for whom the death card could trigger a truly harmful reaction...)
|
| Fudugazi |
23 Jan 2005 |
|
but if the title was growth and bondage instead of death and devil. that might lessen their fears.
I agree with your sentiments, Holmes, but I would personally never read with a deck that called the Devil "Bondage", because I view the Devil card in a far more positive light than that - an active call to reach for the most hidden and exciting and unbound in us. Dangerous, yes, undoubtedly, with a risk of addiction to the high he provides, too.
Maybe none of the cards should be named, that way no querent can ever be freaked out - or misunderstand - and can respond to the actual symbols. Although symbol, as well as words, can mean different things to different people. I imagine that to very Christian people, the image of the Devil evokes something else than to me.
But back to Death. The word does frighten people. I once read for a girlfriend who was worried about a mole on her lip. The Death card (in the Colman Smith) came out - she neither heard my explanation of the card, nor the rest of the reading. I think if that card had been unnamed the ambiguity surrounding it would have been more visible. Not sure, though: that skeleton riding a horse is pretty powerful! It reminds me very much of Bergman's Seventh Seal. A beautiful, expansive, but not an easy film to watch since it is a game between a Knight and Death during the Black Death.
I would say that if you know you are dealing with someone who is new to Tarot, who is worried about her or a loved one's health or whereabouts, then don't use a deck with a card called Death which has such an image on it -or at least, use one that leaves XIII unnamed. But be sure that if "Transformation" comes up, and it means death, then you know how to recognise it! (Passing it on might be another matter and the subject of another thread: how to give bad news).
|
| Red Emma |
23 Jan 2005 |
|
Helvetica and Red Maple,
Thanks very much, guys. Your support is greatly appreciated.
The thing is, when I'm both depressed and mad, my judgement is right out the window. Add the genetic impulsiveness, and I do, now and then, have a few 'next mornings' of embarrasement.
Glad to know that this one was unnecessary.
Goddess Bless,
|
| Melpomone18 |
23 Jan 2005 |
|
Transformation means something is changing, death means it is OVER. Yes, it also means the way has been cleared for something else to take its place, but whatever was there before, is no more.
I seriously doubt whether a client who cannot grasp this is going to truly understand the rest of the reading either.
:TDEAT
I definitely agree with you on this one, cSpaceDiva. To me "Transformation" for Death is a bit of a perplexing misnomer. I used to like decks that used the softened term Transformation, but the more I thought about it the less sense it made. Death is the force that actually closes the door, whether or not one takes that end and uses it as an opportunity for transformation is purely up to the individual seeking guidance, but an entirely different force comes into play if that's the path that they do take. When I do a reading for others and Death comes up I'm careful to point that out. I've read for a few people who were a bit unsure of Tarot, but I don't think that I've ever had anyone run shrieking away from the kitchen table just because he or she pulled Death. Sure, the knowledge that a closure of any kind is coming into your life is a little hard for most people to deal with, but at the same time it can give you a sense of, well, closure. And in my mind, this closure is conveyed rather beautifully in the death card, changing it into "Transformation" is not only unnecessary, it is incorrect.
|
| HOLMES |
23 Jan 2005 |
|
Originally Posted by cSpaceDiva
Transformation means something is changing, death means it is OVER. Yes, it also means the way has been cleared for something else to take its place, but whatever was there before, is no more.
I seriously doubt whether a client who cannot grasp this is going to truly understand the rest of the reading either.
--------------------------------
when i first read that i thought you meant space diva that those who couldnt' grasp the concept of the transformative abiltiies of the death card ,,
not the fact it is over..
however,, it isn't really over, unless one believes that the souls dont' come back to talk to us.
yet one cant go back and burn the same wood over can they.
for another example waylon jennings used to talk about his cocaine days about chasing the first high but you never do . (achieve it)
in a way it can be the death of ignorance, loosing one virginity such as online virgin, tv virgin, and all that stuff,,, that is what is tragic isnt it,,
when old people die it doesn't hit us that hrd.
what is worst,, the loosing of the old ,, or the loosing of the innocent ?
to bring it back to the death,, which brings up fear,, and transforming which doesnt have enough OMPH . i do like the dragon from the celtic dragon tarot shedding his old skin. for the essence of the dragon remains the same.
i have the belief that we retain our essence when we die, but then what happens to the wood when it get burns, or the animals when it get butcher, to those divine essences.
i have yet to see a piece of wood come back in a person dream and say hey thanks for burning me, now i am free,,
or why did you burn me,, i wasnt' yet to change.
i am rambling here just free flowing,, thinkign to myself about death , is rebirth better then transformation yet ? that means more sense to me,, however i do like the idea of bring in ascension better, for we like to think of transforming as getting better.. it doenst' have to get better ti can get worse cant it ?
|
| cSpaceDiva |
24 Jan 2005 |
|
I don't think I was very clear when I talked about the client's grasp of the card meaning. What I was trying to say is, if they cannot get past the name on the card and understand that it can have many meanings, then we are going to have problems with more than just Death and the Devil. If you pull the Emperor, does it mean that you or someone you know is going to become an emperor?
Whether or not souls come back and talk to us, they will never come back to the life they had before. I never said there wasn't more to come, and I think there is a very good reason that Death is not the last card in the deck. ;) I DO think there is a finality to death that should not be ignored. In 78 Degrees of Wisdom, Pollack writes, "eternity triumphs over the transitory." To me, transformation is transitory, death is eternal. I agree that death can be very frightening, but it can also be very, very refreshing when something is over and done, once and for all.... (again, we are not limiting the definition to physical death)
Something else has just occurred to me. One of the lessons of the Death card is that being afraid of what's coming doesn't make it any less inevitable.
|
| Fudugazi |
24 Jan 2005 |
|
what is worst,, the loosing of the old ,, or the loosing of the innocent ?
We are commemmorating the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz by the Red Army. Innocents died, old people died, all murdered. Now, in Israel, in the US, here in Europe, old people who were survivors of the Shoah are dying of natural causes, after a life spent forgetting, remembering, and finally trying to pass on the memory to future generations.
I don't think one is worst than the other: when an innocent dies, it is our future, our hope, our dreams of love that die. The death of youth revolts us. When an old person dies, it is memory, history, the wisdom of a life that disappears. It does not revolt us so much, but, if we value these things, we know we are losing something precious. "When an old person dies, a library disappears" goes an African proverb.
The Death card can show the end of something unpleasant, obsessional, or cruel - when Ceausescu and his wife were killed, despite the illegality of their executions, not a lot of people mourned their passing. So it is with some of the things in our lives we can finally kick into touch - bad habits, unhappy homes, energy-draining jobs and people (even if they don't actually die)! But XIII can also show the loss of someone or something precious, that we lose forever, except in memory - a parent or child, a beloved grandmother, a dear house, one's years at University, a friend who moves to Australia, our dog Roxanne, our dreams of becoming a pilot, our voice, our looks, our eyesight, our grandmother's ring, our sense of self in Alzheimer's.
It leads to transformation, of course - one might say that the transformation is contained in the death: but after it, someone, something will have gone irretrievably. And the transformation is not always for the better. When the Red Army took over Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe, it chased the Nazis, but put the country in another prison, opened other camps.
I don't know if souls come back to see us. I don't believe souls remain intact, rather that they do what bodies do - become something else, become pure energy perhaps. But who knows, it's the Great Mystery. People do live on in memory - that's why it's so important to commemorate and remember the millions of innocents and aged who died in Auschwitz and the other camps - as well as the millions who died unacknowledged in other genocides, or in pandemics - for those who might have known and remembered them often also died, or are dying now.
I'm thinking of these things as I re-read the Journal of Anne Frank, which is my act of commemoration. I think, given her honesty, she would have chosen to call the card Death, or leave it unnamed - in acknowledgement of the Great Mystery.
|
The Politically Correctness in Tarot: Death vs Transformation thread was originally posted on 19 Jan 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.
|
