Suits and the Elements

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 03 Jan 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Moonbow*	03 Jan 2005
I have seen it mentioned several times recently that some people attribute ALL of the elements to the suits.... the posts that come to mind are in this thread: Three of Swords - A good card? Where Kwaw and jmd both mention this. When reading with Marseilles decks I tend to use the Element and Numerology method (plus alot of 'myself') and this now puts me in a quandary, so I wonder if we could start a discussion on this. Another important reason - for me - to understand this, is because I have a few decks which I like very much but find difficult to read because the suits relate to a different element then I am used to. So reading with them becomes more like Oracle reading. One particular deck, which I love, is the Tarocchi Di Vetro (Crystal Tarots), where Justice is 8 and Strength is 11. The pips do not follow the RWS tradition and are more pips than scenic, and the deck has a 'slightly' Marseilles feel (see the Ace of Cups): http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/crystal-tarots/ But in this deck the suit of Swords relates to Water, Cups are Air, Coins are Earth and Batons are Fire. So, how do you read decks that have the elements in a different order to what you are used to? And.... more importantly - for me, how do you read pips and incorporate ALL of the elements, what's your method?

Eco74	03 Jan 2005
I may or may not incorporate all the elements, but the more I think about it, the more I feel that I probably do. Each suit is related to a specific element but an element can not exist without the others and will always react with the other elements. Adding to this "communication" and "reaction" between them is easier in a reading with multiple cards that show what element is dominant and which element is at the heart of the question, but even with a one-card-reading the element will have an effect on others depending on the question. For example, how does a wand/fire-element effect a matter of the heart? The heart itself is closer to water, especially if it is a question regarding emotions. In this there are already two elements and can be more depending on the nature of the question, impressions that come up during the reading and on possible "clarification-cards". And how would a coin/earth-element effect a mental endeavour like studies? I think its easier to blend all the elements than to stick to one, even if the card would be given the main meaning from the element on the card. It will still interact with the rest of the world (or spread) around it..

jmd	03 Jan 2005
Perhaps it is not so much adding all (or some) of the elements, but rather seeing the implement and its uses. For example, as one uses a cup, or a knife, or a coin (or its plastic equivalent), one presumably does not begin by thinking how it relates to an element. Rather, one chops carrots, or drinks a coffee (or tea - the two universal social drinks... air like, in some ways :)), or makes a purchase of either a cheap or an expensive item. It is to these that the implement is primarily connected. Of course, it is not simple kitchen knife, but sword... what is that? and how is (was) it used? Neither is it a coffee cup, but a chalice - what is (was) its function? etc... These are the questions and reflections that, for myself, guide more my own reflections than a presumed elemental attribution.

Fudugazi	03 Jan 2005
jmd wrote: Perhaps it is not so much adding all (or some) of the elements, but rather seeing the implement and its uses. [...] Of course, it is not simple kitchen knife, but sword ... what is that? and how is (was) it used? Neither is it a coffee cup, but a chalice - what is (was) its function? etc... These are the questions and reflections that, for myself, guide more my own reflections than a presumed elemental attribution. To the question of the use of implements, one can also ask how is it made. A sword is is made of metal extracted from the earth, forged in fire and tempered in water, and those three elements work their way into its very being. Air brings the needed oxygen at all levels, and is the element in which the sword operates. Likewise a chalice - whether made from clay, wood or metal - will have some close connection to earth, its home element, then fire and air. A club, generally made of wood, also has its roots in the earth, was fed and grew on water, sun (photosynthesis) and air. A coin was forged with the help of the three elements not usually associated to it. The root element of all these implements is earth. And to all of this we can add those vital transforming elements - man's sweat, intellect and emotions, man's sexual and spiritual needs and journey, and the whole arc of man's creativity. This is making me think about our human relationship with these implements, and with the elements. What does the idea of a root element mean? In addition I am integrating the thoughts Eco posted about the relationship between all elements.

Moongold	03 Jan 2005
Moonbow* wrote: So, how do you read decks that have the elements in a different order to what you are used to? And.... more importantly - for me, how do you read pips and incorporate ALL of the elements, what's your method? How I use the elements depends on the situation. Relationship readings, for example, elements are often the first aspects I would see. A CC, which tells a story, might not involve the use of elements so much. In the Marseille, which I'm learning at present, I'm very conscious of elements. Have been reading about alchemy to understand even more. There is so much to learn in Tarot. I am trying to get to know two decks really well, so am concentrating on in-depth aspects of these two. I was developing a superficial understanding which was quite dissatisfing overall. I'm therefore not using decks which use different approaches at the moment. Sometimes I play with other decks but the serious study is just with two at present.

Moonbow*	03 Jan 2005
I LOVE what I am reading here, you are all saying that there is alot of freedom in the cards - which is the way I like to read. Going back to Tarocchi Di Vetro, where the Swords relate to water and the pips incorporate scenes including fish, water lilies and crabs etc. I believe that the best approach to this type of deck is to forget all the books and read the card, but this will need some practice to change my way of thinking. Moongold, I too am very conscious of the elements in the Marseilles... which is one of the reasons for my question, but I am glad to hear that there is even more flexibility in reading this deck than I at first thought, and I think I will pay particular attention to using all the elements in future.

Fulgour	03 Jan 2005
Moonbow* wrote: One particular deck, which I love, is the Tarocchi Di Vetro... This is indeed a complex deck, but there is an abiding logic. (I'm glad you liked the scans, I sent them with my review.) Have you noticed the mix and match assignation within the Court Cards? There's a thread on this in Using Tarot Cards: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=35306 Moonbow* wrote: Going back to Tarocchi Di Vetro, where the Swords relate to water and the pips incorporate scenes including fish, water lilies and crabs etc. I believe that the best approach to this type of deck is to forget all the books and read the card, but this will need some practice to change my way of thinking. The elemental attributions follow those of the Spanish Kabbalah. Basically, those of this School have shown that if it's used at all, the Kabbalah shouldn't be twisted to fit Tarot ~ but over-layed. The Spanish School says if you want to do it, let it so be fitting. Here is a thread that touches upon the subject: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=28346

Moonbow*	03 Jan 2005
Fulgour, Wonderful, thank you. I enjoyed your review too. I have spent some time reading the links, searching the web and I really need to think more about the elements and the suits and I will be doing this from now on. I know absolutely nothing about the Kabbalah, and at the moment cannot spend too much time reading up on it because it is such a vast subject. But I am taking in snippets.... baby steps. The astrological associations on the Crystal Tarots was quite an eye opener, I had no idea they were there. I am encouraged to spend more time with the deck now. Oh yes, so, who did draw the 1975 version?... hmmm :rolleyes:

Fudugazi	03 Jan 2005
Fulgour, I received the 22 Majors of the Tarocchi di Vetro at Christmas. So far I have only gazed in wonder, and some incomprehension (it doesn't help that the LWB is in italian, and that my Italian is a bit slow). Your review and the link you provided gave me some illumination, wonderfully tantalising, and left me with lots of questions. My knowledge of the Kabbalah is sketchy, except insofar as it relates to basic theological matters and meditations (I am Jewish by my mother). I think I'll just keep gazing for now ;) But if you have any more appetising titbits to share, or even a whole meal...

Fulgour	03 Jan 2005
The Kabbalah forum seems the place to raise further questions. With only 100 threads, this forum has less happening than the (reactivated) Phantasmagoric Theater Tarot Study Group (105). Kabbalah & Alphabetic Reflections Kabala, Cabala, Qabalah: studies of Jewish mysticism, its esoteric appropriation, Alphabets, and their application to Tarot.

Fulgour	03 Jan 2005
jmd wrote: For example, as one uses a cup, or a knife, or a coin (or its plastic equivalent), one presumably does not begin by thinking how it relates to an element. Rather, one chops carrots, or drinks a coffee (or tea - the two universal social drinks... air like, in some ways :)), or makes a purchase of either a cheap or an expensive item....These are the questions and reflections that, for myself, guide more my own reflections than a presumed elemental attribution. Just as the underlying structure of the Major Arcana had substance and meaning before it was stylised as the 22 illustrations and designations we recognize, so too with the Minor Arcana ~ especially when it comes to the Elements: Fire Water Air & Earth The Elements were the foundation of the Minors, the inspiration for the corresponding suit symbols: Fire ~ Batons Water ~ Cups Air ~ Swords Earth ~ Deniers Recognizable and understandable, the symbols do have special meaning in and of themselves, but more so being representative of the intended elemental correspondences.

Fudugazi	04 Jan 2005
Fulgour wrote: The Elements were the foundation of the Minors, the inspiration for the corresponding suit symbols: Fire ~ Batons Water ~ Cups Air ~ Swords Earth ~ Deniers Recognizable and understandable, the symbols do have special meaning in and of themselves, but more so being representative of the intended elemental correspondences. Well, yes and no. They are a useful short-cut, and can help us in meditations, too, but we should no be prisoner of elemental attributions. These symbols are rich and, as Eco and Jean-Michel said, elements meet in many ways in the suits. I also think that if we lose track of the implement - how it was made and what it was for - we lose track of the real day-to-day life of the Tarot, as well as a whole world of symbolic meanings. When I see a sword, what exactly am I looking at? When I see curved swords in a vesica piscis, what does it mean? The sword and the vesica piscis have such abundant histories, in themselves, without even referring to elements! And when one does - because that's yet another layer of Tarot to enlighten and intiate us - then attributions are useful, but should not be claustrophobic, and it is well to remember how each element links with the others, and all four together form the fifth - the quintessence.

jmd	04 Jan 2005
Perhaps another way to distinguish the four elements from the suits is to see the latter as representations of the four platonic virtues (Gareth Knight also suggests this in one of his books - all packed at the moment, and thus inaccessible). Swords to Justice, Cups to Temperance, Batons to Strength (observe, as an example, some early depictions of this card - such as Visconti), leaving Coins to Wisdom (recall the mirror and the 'prudence' notes in the Queen of Coins thread in the Marseille section). The four elements are sublunar elements from which the Earth realm is constructed - the virtues are transcendental. Having an equivalent number to work with certainly leads to possible quantitative correlations. It is, however, their qualitative correlations that may be questioned... and by questioning, of course, perhaps be lead to discover a deeper connection.

Fulgour	04 Jan 2005
jmd wrote: The four elements are sublunar elements from which the Earth realm is constructed - the virtues are transcendental. Looking at the Marseille suit symbols, one might wonder if they were designed to be abstractions, not of the real world at all ~ and so simply meant as nice visual aids? Certainly in the Colman Smith Tarot, we go back and forth, where the items are realistic and then very strange indeed. And if the implements are the true mechanics of the minors, why not have 4 groups of 36 different but related things?

Fulgour	04 Jan 2005
Helvetica wrote: ...and it is well to remember how each element links with the others, and all four together form the fifth - the quintessence . Rather than negating the Four Elements, "Quintessence" serves to enhance them.

Fudugazi	04 Jan 2005
jmd wrote: Swords to Justice, Cups to Temperance, Batons to Strength (observe, as an example, some early depictions of this card - such as Visconti), leaving Coins to Wisdom (recall the mirror and the 'prudence' notes in the Queen of Coins thread in the Marseille section). The four elements are sublunar elements from which the Earth realm is constructed - the virtues are transcendental. I like that idea, another layer, another understanding. I have often wondered what happened to Prudence (where's Prue?) and seen her shadow in her sister cardinal virtues. Baba-studios put Prudence at the top of the 7 of Pentacles, with Temperance, in the Tarot of Prague. Very fitting for that card of growth.

The Suits and the Elements thread was originally posted on 03 Jan 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.