tarot and alliances

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 31 Jan 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

HOLMES	31 Jan 2005
I was watching zorro and thinking of alliances and how they are made.. i had went by the ideal that the swords was politcals and war alliances stuff. then i realized a person with pentacles would of made alliances due to resources, and the praticality behind it. yess.. hmm. the focus here would be the four of pentacles. and fear of five then a person with wands would of made alliances dues to their spiritual and social beliefs. their focus would be 5 of wands, and 7 of wands, but looking for those to give them support in the case of the nine of wands. many hands make the burden light after all in case of ten of wands. and a person would of made alliances with swords due to their stength(not resources strength)... i see this as easy backstabbing if done reversed.. but if upright they do it for unseen strength. in this alliance . the focus is on proving oneself as not to be trifled with it, respect through fear in case of reversed swords but upright respect due to the danger of the other person. a slight differnce. the worst case scenario,, mafia and the godfathers ideal alwasy end up like the ten of swords. (thinking of ceaser as well). that is why nine of swords is such a killer because of stress.. they are wondering not about resources, not about friendships, or beliefs,, but about how strong they are as they are percieved by others. for a person with cups , they would of made alliances due to friendship,, but once the emotional connection has grown distant they would pull the eight of cups on the person. of course in the twos, the alliances are made, joining resources and physical strenght, joining freindship and emotional connection, joining mutal social common grounds and beginning to be loyal to the common cause.. or joining due to they are equals and together they can rule, or be a force. just thinking of minor arcana right now and not court cards yet..

Alta	31 Jan 2005
I see, a bit like dignities but seeing it a more human level. I also think in terms of cards that was would work together and those that would blow apart, because alliances as you describe them are based on like thinking. True enough. Alliances based on idealism. Could certainly be wands, being the idealistic puppies they are, eager to save the world and work together to do it. Cups could be based on a romanticized version of the situation; you and me against the world; only we understand etc. Coins on the ideal of strength and security; banding together because together they make a more stable, stronger tea.. The most dangerous idealists of all to me are the swords. Slightly more likely to be loners, imo, but more than willing to break everything in sight in order to build it up to their own idelaistic visions. They do form teams, though one tends to lead. Hum, that leads me to another idea. In such alliances, who would lead and who would follow, and under what circumstances?

HOLMES	01 Feb 2005
yes marion,, let us look at the court cards for more indepth look at this, can you show me the alliance (friendship,, parthernship, business partners ) how it will go,, king of swords, and king of cups, well you see dear client, the king of swords is only in it for the power which the king of cups can't see, the king of cups is in it for the friendship,, and the time spent invested in it. "yes that is my husband, he went into business with his so called friend but i dont liek him for i think .. well i don't know " yes old rule says never go into business with your friend. now i see them as both upright and so it is a postive relationship so far.. and will most likely remain so just based on these two cards.. yet let us look at events.. example if reversed five of cups shows up.. that would indicate that your husband will get hurt but wont' want to see it.. "oh yes i fear that,, what is the next card " turn it up.. ah it is the 7 of swords reversed. it shows the king of swords might want more power but it is a feeble attmept to get it , so the ties are tied ? or perhaps the king of swords is reversed and the king is upright.. then the man is using the husband for sure without respect and will dump it when he could. queen of wands, and queen of pentacles. they would be in alliance, the queen is in it for the beliefs, and the other queen is in it for the resources (people would want their kids to get into church hierachy i remember reading for that is where the money would be.. that could be in reference to medievil ages ?) now throw down the 4 of pentacles behind it.. the queen of pentacles despite her good intentions would be using the resources to keep , in other words hinding the queen of wands intentions with her miseriness.. yet suppose an differnt element comes into play . knight of cups in alliance with knight of pentalces. they are in alliance , the one due to the emotional friendship, and the other due to the riches of the other knight. or perhaps he is like to lavish his friends with the pentacles and he knows his friend doens't care about the lavishing but his own indiviality. what could come between this two freinds ? the 5 of wands reversed. yess, their beliefs are coming to play, they have to prove they are equal,, but in doing so really want to prove they are better. what it would boil down most likely would be. (based on the thesis so far of allaince ) on my way of caring and sharing is more better then your way of giving support. yeah well my way of giving material support when need is how i show my love.. suppose the alliance was knight of cups , and king of swords reversed. the knight of cups idolizes the king of swords.. but the king of swords is mostly nasty yet doenst reveal his nature to the king of cups for he knows that such loyalty makes him an excellent pawn to buffer him from his poltiical enemes . (since it is swords i would not really use political but tactical and strategical enemes ) in the end the kngiht would be stun to learn the true nature of the mentor. and wonder where did he go wrong. page of cups and father of cups.. for likely alliance. i want you to go to school and learn the arts of poetry .. yes father.. but instead , he will go to learn to learn music. the father may get hurt for this way of expressing his self is not carried on with the boy . (or daughter ) yes let make it daugher. so she goes on and on learnign music, while the father writes and writes his feelings in music. they enver collabate on songs. for they can't see the words and feelings of the rhymthm go together. finally the queen of swords or perhaps pentacles walks in and say i am putting my foot down, you will work out a song for my birthday or things will shaky around this household. for she is seeing the union of naturalness.. and the father and daugher begin to grow and like each other again.. and remember their deeply hidden love for each other. (they refuse to listen to each other stuff .. you know holiwood movie ) and begin to connect in a way that someone else can't.. but then again, that isnt' to say that a queen of swords,, and knight of pentacles ( making knight young boy instead of young man . and he grows up to be young man ) wont' be able to achieve the same connection due to their differnt way of doing things.. the young man craftsmanship will be an apple in the mother eye for she will wonder how it can be used.. see the boy may be focused on where can i best learn,, and with who can i be the best.. while the mother may seek to bring fame to the boy.. or money depending on the element she is strong in. all that isnt hasnt' taken into account. water in water for queen of water , and queen of wands. water in fire.. suppose it was the queen of cups reversed, and queen of wands upright.. (i see too much element reversed is not in conflict but going to extreme.. while direct opposits such as water and fire instead of in conflict when reversed seek to try to equalize and harmonzied when upright ) the emotioanal feelings of the queen of cups reversed is too strong for the queen of wands to try to harmonize and so brings out the emotions in her which the fire can't compete with and goes out. one should be able to use alliances to asses marriages well. i would think

Fudugazi	01 Feb 2005
I like this discussion! How people build alliances...yes, and you will get cross- alliances. You're all a bit tough on the poor Swords. I would say Swords build alliances based on mental affinity, on shared idealism - and transform it into focussed action. Same with the court cards of the same suit. Only when the negative aspect is stonger would swords become dangerous and controlling - but at best, they make very effective alliances. I had a boss who was a King of Swords, in Congo. He saved a lot of people's lives and took brave decisions in a difficult political climate. He was idealistic but also very bright and used his fine mind to do so cleverly. He built alliances with lots of people, including some very unsavoury types (you have to in such situations) - and he used the other people's agendas to advance his own - his own being, as I said, idealistic and humanitarian. It was interesting working for him, though difficult as he insisted on logical frameworks for every piece of work ;) There are well-known alliances that exist, or have existed, for several reasons: e.g. Mahatma Gandhi built alliances based on Swords (idealism) and Cups (love, spirituality) with Nehru whose motivations were the creation of a new state (Wands) and power for the Hindus (Swords - doubled-edged instruments, remember!) and with Mohammad Ali Jinnah, later the founder of Pakistan, whose motivations were security for the Muslims (Coins) and power (Swords). This alliance was led with idealism and good brains (Swords) as well as Gandhi's spirituality (Cups) but it came under a great deal of strain from defensive Wands behaviour, and overwhelming (negative) Swords action from the British. Such alliances can only continue to exist while each ally feels his deep motivations are being met in the alliance. We can see this in the personal realm too. Let's take a conservative marriage: a woman marries a man for love (Cups) and because she wants to settle and build a home (Coins), while the man she marries want love (Cups) and a base for his creativity (Wands). These two could be very well matched, as both have love to give to the other, and the Cups/Coins lady provides a secure place for the Wands man to explore, create and launch a career from. But if the lady becomes too stifling (4 of Coins) the man will feel his creativity is being blocked and he'll wander. Or if he becomes too overpowering and uses "attack as the best form of defence" (always a danger with Wands), then the lady might feel her home has become a zone of tension. Then they will need to renew the alliance on the basis of love (Cups) again if it is to survive. Maybe the lady needs some Wands energy in her life, and the man a bit of Coins, and both would do well to apply some Swords energy (mental cutting through of problems) to a degraded situation.

Fulgour	01 Feb 2005
HOLMES wrote: ...in other words hinding the queen of wands intentions with her miseriness.. This is as far as I got. Let me know how it turns out!

HOLMES	01 Feb 2005
Fulgour wrote: This is as far as I got. Let me know how it turns out! nothing to let you to let you know,, you just have to read the rest when you get a chance. edited to add the reason for the miserness was the four of pentacles. indicating the queen of pentacles natural resourcefulness would be taken to extreme as she manages the resouces of the alliance.

HOLMES	01 Feb 2005
thanks Helvetica, i love interesting discussions as well :) i think for swords it depends on what defination you are giving them. i mostly said that it was swords who made alliances due to strategy and tactical reasons. i do believe it was marion who made mention of idealism. but that is perfectly valid as well. the swords have to have their postive effect as well for the mind is a powerful thing. the differnce for me for the wands and swords is, the wand would be spiritual and social beliefs. while the swords would be mental beliefs such as the ego. so a person at the highest for my meanings given to it would be a person trying to change the mentality of those he encounters. in such regards he would be trying to teach them to become stronger.. and not so much a victam. martin lawrence in rundlat was comparing malcom x and martin luther. he said martin luther was saying "non violent non violent" and malcom x was saying "by any means necessary " .(forgive me i havent' studies these two great influencer of history, and just using this example as it comes to mind for i been watching his video ). of course these two quotes could be both sword based.. the first quote refers to giving up the sword, while the second was using the sword to prove the point. the boss of swords at first i was going to ask was he really a king of swords ? but the description of "used his fine mind to do so cleverly" and "he insisted on logical framework for every piece of work " has led me to concure with your statment. indeed he was an fine upright king of swords, navigating the poltical scene while mainting his integrity. (the honest politician). the part about the alliances iwth unsavoury types and using other people agendas sounds about right for the king of swords allainces he must make. wow helvetica. that is some impressive alliance comparisions. i will say that sounds about right for the examples you have given (i am political and historical ignorant) for the example of the conversative marriage for wands,, i am not sure it is "attack as the best form of defence" as that sounds to me like swords.. but for wand what would it be.. "judging"for a wand reversed ? i would agree the basis they would have to reach would be the love,, and from that love to try to understand need of coin vs creativity and find some harmony based coin plus creativity. in such cases. the best thing to do would be to temper each other with the other strenghts. so he becomes creative based with some praticality taught by her, and she becomes coin oriented with some creativity energies given to her by the husband. in such a case i see an accountant who get inspired to start up her own firm. while the artist looks at the market and see what sells and starts to make paintings in those areas.. he shouldn't care as long as he is creating.. (then he can make the paintings he desires eventually after he creates a base that wasnt' there ) and that is possible due to their merging of energies. (a meeting of the heart that causes a meeting of the mind ). (where if they tried to meet by the mind , their hearts would get hurt) .

HOLMES	14 Feb 2005
i think it is pretty clear that for the most part , we are not simply of one element. example pentacles or wands. which is why the court cards are for the most part a mixature of elements except for the cards that get a water in water, fire in fire, earth in earth, and air in air. so accordingly we simply do not have one agenda while making alliances. but several. one example of serveral reasons is this alliance is great for the money (pentacles), i know the person well.(cups) and it will be added strength to our business (sword as i am seeing it here). in business wands shouldnt come into play but it frequently does. this business partner lieks to wheel and deel, my kind of person ( wands?) this person works hard in charity work (definatly wands there ) a person can learn much about praticality, politics, social concouness, and friendship just by looking at every relationship in their lives. as we went over family are alliances, blood brothers are alliances. when two competitors go into business and refuse to admit they like each other. they call it not an alliance but necessaity. they are fooling themselves. i think it would be limiting to say a person who is earth , earth . page of pentacles .. which could be young female in the physical world. or young person in the physical world depending on how you see the page of pentacles of course. they would only seek to make physical/pratical relationships. yes as they grow , some aspect of them must become water,, in order to become a woman. so the parents could look at their young child, or daughter and prepare them to make such alliances when they grow up. this system, could work to look at who the king of wands was when he was younger.. he is fire in fire,, so if you see the knight as being young man .. he must of been air and fire . the knight of wands. so a person would of made social and strategical alliances when young but now only make social relationships . which would be hogwash. for that aspect of the air would be there somewhere in the fire , fire make up ,,giving it fuel to burn. anyhow the whole purpose of this post was to look past the single elment of alliances and affinity for alliances to broaden into multi elments. and that should help you understand the court cards and people, minor arcana and events. and yourself and your relationships in life . and especially your relationship with yourself better :)

The tarot and alliances thread was originally posted on 31 Jan 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.