Why Do People Think............

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 28 Jan 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

JamieSmith	28 Jan 2005
Why Do People Think Tarot Cards Are So Evil?Is It Because There Afraid They Might Be Right?What Do You Think!

Celtic Star	28 Jan 2005
Don't know but lack of education could be a factor. I was stunned to learn that there are lots of people out there that are afraid of Tarot. I find this ridiculous but they apparently do not. Peoples reactions can be over the top sometimes. I know when I told my aunt about joining this forum she asked me if it was a cult & winced while we were talking. She also told me to be careful....of YOU guys! Heehee. She didn't know but I was offended by these remarks.

Ace	28 Jan 2005
People think tarot is evil because the Catholic Church says that fortunetelling is evil. They want people to use the Church to talk to G-d for them, and not let each one of us talk to G-d ourselves. I have a friend who was raised Southern Baptist. He believes I am damned to Hell. But he likes me anyway. We have a pact: when we meet in Heaven, he will get a card reading.

tarotbear	29 Jan 2005
Anything that is not understood is immediately bad - didn't they drum that into your little head in grade school? If they don't have a clue and you say that you are learning something from it that they didn't know - then it has to be bad or they would have known it already. Have you ever seen the movie 'Sorceress' (Also known as 'the Sorceress and the Monk'?) where the monk tells the wise woman in the forest that is it bad to try to learn the knowledge that God put in the plants - that it is not hers to learn? ( Meaning that the monks didn't know about the plants' properties first and don't want women to have the knowledge they don't? I always wanted to ask those idiots who scream about the Tarot being the Devil's Picture Book ( complete with the devil card to prove it) why something so evil is chock full of Christian symbols.

Dark Inquisitor	29 Jan 2005
tarotbear wrote: I always wanted to ask those idiots who scream about the Tarot being the Devil's Picture Book ( complete with the devil card to prove it) why something so evil is chock full of Christian symbols. They were put there as a veneer to hide the witchcraft . Like curtains ! (And who decides Christian symbols aren't evil? )

WalesWoman	29 Jan 2005
Dark Inquisitor wrote: They were put there as a veneer to hide the witchcraft . Like curtains ! (And who decides Christian symbols aren't evil? ) I was raised a Lutheran and Catholic symbols,i.e. the statues, were "idolatry", and so was praying to saints, which was bad so all Catholics were going to hell too! LOL I remember sitting there on the hard pew hearing that even playing cards was bad, that anything that had any "secrets" was bad, that anything to fortell the future was bad, in fact just about anything that was fun or might even feel good was bad, I was bad. There were a lot of clubs I couldn't join, so I suppose if I'd have been into it, a college sorority would have been bad. So it's sort of ironic that so much weight is put on the books of the Bible that were written by prophets who saw the future, but somehow it was ok since God told them, 1,000 years later, they'd have been burned at the stake after torture for heresy!!! Like that isn't going on today, just a bit differently. Anything that isn't understood is persecuted, evolution is still not taught in many schools around the country. I'm still trying to figure out how my dad could believe the world was only 4,000 years old while looking at dinosaur displays in a museum. I don't know what he'd think of me doing Tarot, probably that I'll burn in hell too, but I've done much worse, so oh well. That isn't what I believe, so I'll just continue to live my life in the best way I can and hope for the best.

Simone	29 Jan 2005
I am lucky to live in a region where people are not thinking the cards are the work of the Devil - some are just skeptical, some make fun of them, but I've never had anyone running screaming from the room or trying to convert me }) Therefore, I was really shocked when I first heard about this medieval attitude of people thinking about Tarot as "the picture book of the Devil" - it remined me of witchhunting and dictatorship... I guess it really is honest fear - and the dogmatic belief in what their churchmen tell them without analysing it with own thinking and compassion.... There are people who think the world is only black and white, either good or bad, and something with a picture of the Devil in it can only be classified as bad, eh }) ? Deriving insight and spirituality from a set of cardboard pictures must look like worshipping "another god beside me", the golden calf, a step back into heathen beliefs... And there are those who are scared of what the cards might have to tell them, maybe because they have something to hide or things they do not want to talk about, so they prefer to point the finger at the cards rather then confronting them. The more I think of it, the more it seems that it all breaks down to simple fear, and with some, this fear has been allowed to grow to a fanatic and passionate rejection of the unknown... Hmmm, interesting question Love Simone

spoonbender	29 Jan 2005
It definitely all comes down to fear. Religion and dogma's offer some sort of escape from that - it makes everything fixed and controlled. But if you're not careful, anything outside of that religion can quickly be considered evil, resulting in a very manichaean world view: the evil-doers versus the side of justice and generosity. And it's usually clear that there's no neutral path :(. It also seems that it is tied to geographical locations, because I've never met anyone who thought Tarot was evil here in Belgium. It's kind of ironic (and sad) when you think about it, that part of what people call the "New World" is actually the most reactionary... Spoon

Lady Mary	29 Jan 2005
Ace wrote: People think tarot is evil because the Catholic Church says that fortunetelling is evil. They want people to use the Church to talk to G-d for them, and not let each one of us talk to G-d ourselves. Living in a "Catholic" country (majority is/was Catholic) I've never heard any negative remarks about Tarot. I've never met anybody who feared Tarot. I've never heard a Catholic priest even talk about Tarot. The only negative reaction you might get here is "I'm not interested" or "It's nonsense". I'm wondering if it might depend on where you live. So maybe there are more conservatives across the Atlantic and these conservatives are maybe a little more fearful. I'd tell them to just turn on any newschannel. Here they can see all the things happening every day around us everybody should fear!

Stacie Doll	29 Jan 2005
Yesterday my neighbor saw my cards. It was an oracle deck but before I could answer my mother told him yes, they were tarot cards(she dosn't know the differece). He then said "Tarot & ain't no joke, I run from that & the ouija board"! My mother told him it was nothing to be afraid of. I didn't say anything. Edited to add:He also said it's voodoo.

Stregaverde	29 Jan 2005
I had to hide my tarot studies from friends and family in the US, who either thought that I was crazy, in league with Satan, or one step away from joining a cult. Sheesh. After moving to Italy, a VERY Catholic country, I was astounded to find that most people are totally open to the cards! Some have some fear of their 'power', and some are skeptical, but no one reacts with garlic and crucifix as they did in America. Some people are a little afraid of my 'powers', but I'm quick to explain that we can all get in touch with our Inner Guides. I've since come to realize that America has never truly shed its Puritanical roots. I'm getting a whole new view of religion over here, it's fascinating. Not better or worse, just different. In our travels to both Ireland and America, my very Catholic husband was shocked at the oppressiveness of Catholic beliefs in those countries (his opinion, and mine as well). And don't get me started on the far-out Protestants in my native Deep South! Oy!

bleuivy	29 Jan 2005
I think alot of it is, indeed, fear of the unknown. Tarot still has the esoteric mystique about it, as if it is something forbidden. That makes it scary. Also, of course, the Bible says fortunetelling is wrong, witches are wrong, and wanting to see the future is wrong, so we should all be going to hell. Of course, I don't use tarot cards to learn about the future. I use them to learn about the NOW; what's going on now in my life that I'm just not seeing. The readings I do may have implications for the future, and if they do, so much the better, but that's not my intent. The people I've known in my life that have been afraid of tarot cards haven't ever really tried to get to know about them, though. One person told me that fortunetelling was wrong because I was trying to see into God's Divine Plan, which is just plain nonsense, but she wouldn't listen to me when I tried to explain why and how I really read tarot. So I guess the fear of tarot cards is based upon the fear of the unknown coupled with what the Bible has to say about witches and fortunetelling. It gets agravating some times, but we all live through it.

similia	29 Jan 2005
I think it is just poor education on the matter. "Magic" like most things is taught as a very black and white topic in Christianity (despite most biblical characters doing the exact opposite). Obviously there's a lot more subtly involved, but to be safe "its better to stay away completely" is their thinking (or my interpretation of their thinking). If your interested in the topic, I highly recommend "Meditation on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism". Its written by an almost cardinal, the afterword if from a cardinal and the current pope has a copy. It discusses the major arcana and relates them to christian theology. Its a fascinating read, and might give you a few arguments to help combat ignorance. (e.g. there's a section on the pentagram as it relates to the five wounds of christ, and its power to release souls from limbo or purgatory into paradise) I never had anyone run from the room, only a few weird looks. A friend I read for frequently was raised catholic, so she stills feel nervous eveytime she asks me to read for her (but she's also my best referrer).

RedMaple	29 Jan 2005
Lady Mary wrote: I'm wondering if it might depend on where you live. So maybe there are more conservatives across the Atlantic and these conservatives are maybe a little more fearful. I'd tell them to just turn on any newschannel. Here they can see all the things happening every day around us everybody should fear! Have you seen American news channels lately? Much of the news is really opinions on the news, with right-wing analyses and hysteria. Obviously, what makes the news is driven by their agenda as well. All the things we should fear are blamed on the lack of "Christian values and religion." CNN seems to be trying to get back to actually presenting the news. But it is shocking for me when I visit Canada, to see sane news broadcasts that are intelligent, and assume the intelligence of the audience. Here, everything is hype.

Lady Mary	29 Jan 2005
RedMaple wrote: Have you seen American news channels lately? Much of the news is really opinions on the news, with right-wing analyses and hysteria. Obviously, what makes the news is driven by their agenda as well. All the things we should fear are blamed on the lack of "Christian values and religion." CNN seems to be trying to get back to actually presenting the news. But it is shocking for me when I visit Canada, to see sane news broadcasts that are intelligent, and assume the intelligence of the audience. Here, everything is hype. I was just thinking about the pictures we get to see (war, dead bodies, torture scenes, fugitives, ...). In my house we do not turn on any newschannel when my daughter is around as I do not want to see her these pictures. So given the world we live in I can only laugh when someone thinks Tarot cards were evil.

le pendu	29 Jan 2005
I think I understand why so many people are afraid of Tarot. In a Christian world view: We have God and the Angels; and the Devil and the Demons. They are in a continual fight for your soul. The way to communicate with God is via prayer. You may pray to God for a particular outcome to an event, but the future (and all matters) are entirely at God's whim and descretion. When appropriate, God may choose to give "signs" of His will, or of what is to come. By using tools of divination, Tarot, Ouiji boards, dice... etc, you are not reading the signs that God has placed in the world, nor using the proper communication channel to God.. prayer. You are, in effect, forcing signs. You are using a system that attempts to forcefully reveal God's intentions. You are using an "alternative" means of discovering God's plans. Regardless of whether Tarot "works" or not, it is an attempt to obtain foreknowledge of God's plans. If it *does* work, and it is not via the correct channels of communication with God (prayer, signs), the logical conclusion is that it is the work of someone else... the Devil or his demons. So, the more a Christian believes that the Tarot actually works, the more frightening it is. The Devil makes the cards work as a way to lure you further and further away from correct communication with God. Your soul is in peril. --- Now, does the Bible actually say that? That's up for debate, and there are threads here on Aeclectic that address this debate in detail. Regardless of how silly, fundamental, or simple-minded this may seem to some, it IS a valid world view.. one that has ruled the Western mind to varying degrees for almost 2000 years. I don't think it is hard to imagine this viewpoint, although it is, I think, a fairly dangerous one.

Cerulean	29 Jan 2005
I've just heard fortune-telling with playing cards, gambling and drinking alcohol can become bad addictions, but nothing specific about tarot when I was growing up. As a working adult who also goes to night classes, I've been interested to hear about different backgrounds and also different belief systems in this forum. My own opinion is if one can afford to buy and use the cards within one's personal balances, it's a good pastime and maybe even educational or helpful with other personal work. Far from my childish upbringing, I feel I know many family-oriented and rather healthy people who enjoy their 'pleasures' in moderation. This includes: they lik tarot card art for various reasons; play card gambling games with matchsticks and pennies or once in awhile buy a lotto ticket that supposedly helped finance school contributions or go to Vegas. All of them learned to know their alcohol tolerance. I personally think I know the above for myself, as well. Given the above is all within reasonable personal limits, I've been amazed at what other strange stories that I've heard or read from those who enjoy tarot card study and art. Sounds like urban legends and folklore with tarot and playing cards are almost interchangeable, when I hear such things. My thoughts, thanks for asking. I am curious about your thoughts and hope to learn about what tarots you might be curious about or like very much. Regards, Cerulean

rosyelf	29 Jan 2005
It's fear. And it's hard to iron out because the fearful people don't want to listen to what we're saying. It is only in the last few years I have come to realize just how much fear runs through Christianity. It was definitely not put there by Jesus. It's fear inculcated by those who want power. Tarot challenges their power because virtually anyone can do it. You don't even have to be literate to do Tarot-as long as you've had someone to explain the symbolism. And, needless to say, women can do Tarot, gays can do Tarot, and that freaks the life out of some people, even now. I have some friends, good and lovely people, committed Christians, not fundamentalists, who would probably cringe right away if they ever got a glimpse of my cards. If I even mentioned the cards. Yet, if I followed this up with a "Why are you against Tarot ?" question, I don't suppose I'd get anything more than the usual circular argument which shows they know nothing about it. They are all intelligent and well-informed people, but this is shoddy thinking. In fact, it is not thinking at all. There is evil a -plenty being committed in the world every single moment, but it does not reside in pieces of illustrated cardboard. And it's not just Christians. I have a close friend, a lovely man, very "New Age", a healer and so on, who advised me only this week to "protect" myself when logging onto Aeclectic Forum ! Extraordinary.

Red Emma	29 Jan 2005
Dark Inquisitor wrote: (And who decides Christian symbols aren't evil? ) Dear Dark, I needed a good chuckle this morning. Thanks.

Red Emma	29 Jan 2005
The more I read about religious history, and such books as "Gnostic Gospels," and Margaret Starbird's writings about Mary Magadalene, the more I think that there's a certain type of rigid, narrow minded, punitive personality who managed to take control of Christianity in the first and second centuries. They went through all the existing (at that time) books (scrolls?) regarding Christ, his mission, etc., kept all the rigid, punitive parts and destroyed anything which didn't fit their idea of 'good.' Or life as they thought it ought to be. As the centuries flew by, this type of personality maintained control of 'Christianity' -- which I strongly believe had little to do with much of anything Christ taught. And 'Control's' the operative word. If people can read their tarot, and privately access the occult to help their lives, then the Jerks cannot maintain control. They killed, maimed, tortured millions of people to keep the control they grabbed at such a high price to humanity. I'm wondering if the current cultural climate which opens up our brains a bit, and even permits such TV programs as X-Files, -- can't think of some of the programs for young females -- Is it Charmed? And one about vampires -- doesn't make the acceptance of the occult much more acceptable for that generation? And as it takes its place in society, makes occult pursuits an okay thing to do. Who knows. The day may come when Christ's real teachings become acceptable. According to some of my readings, these right winged 'Christian' nuts have shrunk from about 50% of the population after WW II, to a current +/- 25%. They are noisy. But noisy is about all they have left.

le pendu	29 Jan 2005
Red Emma wrote: According to some of my readings, these right winged 'Christian' nuts have shrunk from about 50% of the population after WW II, to a current +/- 25%. They are noisy. But noisy is about all they have left. I wish I believed you were right, but if I were to make a guess, based on a certain unmentionable occurance on November 2 here in the US, I would say it was more like 51% against 49%. There is evidence that the event was drawn very much along religious lines. I don't mean to be paranoid or a fear-monger, but I sincerely believe that many folks would like nothing more than to see "the Kingdom of God", as they understand it, established right here, right now. Many churches are doing everything in their power, religiously and politically, to see that outcome manifest. Many would be thrilled to have the "rule of God" replace the "rule of the people". A theocracy is in the making. robert

Rosanne	29 Jan 2005
I think people who are scared of Tarot are scared about other unknowns in their life. Scared of the symbols of other thoughts- the Crescent, the Hammer and Sickle,the Cross - just to name a few. They run to where they think the most people are to hide in the crowd. They are first to yell in fear that someone is out of step with their crowd. Quite often, all tho they don't know it they are marching with ghosts. In this country at least the last census showed a huge drift away from organised religions of every persuasion. I am fortunate because when I tell someone my persuasion is Tarot, there never seems to be an outward bad reaction.Maybe it is something to do with how this country evolved. People immigrating from other cultures away from rigid thought to do their own thing here. A small nation of strong individuals asserting their path against all comers. Also, I just look like everybody else- no 666 tattooed on my forehead. Regards Rosanne

ncefafn	29 Jan 2005
Celtic Star wrote: She also told me to be careful....of YOU guys! Haha! She was right! Mwahahahaa!

rainwolf	29 Jan 2005
maybe its the death card.....? Most ppl sadly only know taht card adn the other more grim looking ones...and maybe they think its only a predictor of death.

prudence	30 Jan 2005
A close relative of mine is a Jehovah's Witness and she explained that they believe that there are no longer any "good entities" on the Earth these days since we have strayed so far from His teachings. And so, if we are communicating with an entity thru Tarot (or any oracle) we are guaranteed to be communicating with an evil entity or demon. They believe that only during "biblical" times, like when Moses got the commandments, did "good " entities or "God" actually communicate with humanity. I did not ask her what Witnesses think about the human subconscious and whether or not it too is considered evil. (BTW, JW's are not allowed to meditate either for fear of "contacting demons", they are all about avoiding that whole "demon scene"). So, there's that common thread of fear again. Astrid O

tarotbear	31 Jan 2005
Astrid O wrote: And so, if we are communicating with an entity thru Tarot (or any oracle) we are guaranteed to be communicating with an evil entity or demon. They believe that only during "biblical" times, like when Moses got the commandments, did "good " entities or "God" actually communicate with humanity. Astrid O I'm reminded of the scene in "Moonstruck" where Olympia DuKakis tells Cher that the dying mother of Johnny Commarari isn't dying anymore and it must be a miracle and Cher shouts! "There aren't any miracles anymore! This is Modern Times! Miracles happen in the Bible!" There are no longer any 'good entities' on the earth? Are they in the social register or something? LOL!

Red Emma	31 Jan 2005
People DON'T think, and that's one of the biggest problems. They just react with long ago, laid down negative reactions to the world. As well as more than a little little bit of psychological conditioning. Remember Pavlov's dog? Thanks, Bear, for the social register remark. (I needed a laugh this morning!) When I was in public relations I saw a lot of this crowd. That's when I learned that there are people in this world whose main goal in life is to be invited to the "Right" parties. It's still hard to believe. But I sure wouldn't accept their perceptions for much of anything.

rachelcat	31 Jan 2005
I think that Catholic schools specifically teach that tarot is used by witches. My son went to Catholic high school, and he said his religion teacher just said using tarot was "dabbling in the occult" like a ouija board, and you shouldn't do it, and that's all that was said. But I think there is a specific "witch" teaching that must be given either to elementary students or in older or old-fashioned schools. On this forum there was a post that simply said "since you use tarot cards, do you consider yourself a witch?" A few days later, when I mentioned to my co-worker (a 50ish woman educated in all Catholic schools in Boston) that I was buying tarot cards, she said (calmly and curiously, thankfully!), "oh, are you a witch?" I thought this was too much of a coincidence. Has anyone else been taught specifically that tarot is for "witches"? (as opposed to just occult, bad, etc.)

tarotbear	31 Jan 2005
rachelcat wrote: My son went to Catholic high school, and he said his religion teacher just said using tarot was "dabbling in the occult" like a ouija board, and you shouldn't do it, and that's all that was said. Has anyone else been taught specifically that tarot is for "witches"? (as opposed to just occult, bad, etc.) OF COURSE Tarot is "dabbling in the Occult!" 'Occult' means ' that which is hidden.' When the ER orders a stool test to look for occult blood, it is blood hidden in the stool at is not detectable without a lab test. Not that I compare reading Tarot to looking for blood in someone's stool... Remember - if the Catholic Priest doesn't 'do' something on the altar at Mass, then is a big 'no-no' to catholics. Just think of what would happen if catholic priests started reading tarot on the altar - say - after the gospel - it would change so much for the Catholics who are still believing condoms are from the devil, too. Personally - I wouldn't touch a ouija board if you paid me, ... but that's another story!

le pendu	31 Jan 2005
tarotbear wrote: Personally - I wouldn't touch a ouija board if you paid me, ... but that's another story! Now THAT'S interesting tarotbear. Why is that so? What is the difference between communication with a ouija board and communication with tarot cards? robert

tarotbear	31 Jan 2005
le pendu wrote: Now THAT'S interesting tarotbear. Why is that so? What is the difference between communication with a ouija board and communication with tarot cards? I believe the communication with tarot comes from within, and whatever is powering a ouija board is subject to debate.

ncefafn	31 Jan 2005
le pendu wrote: Now THAT'S interesting tarotbear. Why is that so? What is the difference between communication with a ouija board and communication with tarot cards? BIG difference. I've been reading Tarot off and on for 20 years and never had anything creepy happen to me. Did the Ouija once and something really, really bad happened. Scariest thing I've ever seen. Not gonna talk about it.

huredriel	31 Jan 2005
ncefafn wrote: BIG difference. I've been reading Tarot off and on for 20 years and never had anything creepy happen to me. Did the Ouija once and something really, really bad happened. Scariest thing I've ever seen. Not gonna talk about it. Now I'm really curious. Only messed about with it once as a kid in a group. Can't really remember what happened except we all freaked, convinced someone was playing jokes on us.

le pendu	31 Jan 2005
ncefafn wrote: BIG difference. I've been reading Tarot off and on for 20 years and never had anything creepy happen to me. Did the Ouija once and something really, really bad happened. Scariest thing I've ever seen. Not gonna talk about it. Yes, and I hear the exact same things said about Tarot cards. I'm surprised by this.. as this seems to be the very same reaction that started this post! robert

ncefafn	31 Jan 2005
le pendu wrote: Yes, and I hear the exact same things said about Tarot cards. I'm surprised by this.. as this seems to be the very same reaction that started this post! I can't speak for the person who started this post, but I am assuming from the general tenor of most comments reported here that the people who have reacted negatively to the Tarot have no experience of it. I have had experience of both the Tarot and the ouija board. Tarot, good; ouija board, bad. Your mileage may vary. Respectfully, etc.

Red Emma	31 Jan 2005
About Ouija boards... I tried it once in college, during WW II. It wasn't creepy, but it was so accurate that it was kind of scary. It had to do with a dorm resident who lived on a different floor than my room mate and I (who were working the board) and whom we didn't know. We accurately told her where she'd been the previous weekend and why. Her fiance, who had been fighting in the Pacific, had been wounded and flown to a hospital in Seattle. She had been able to go see him. It's more amazing if you understand how tight security about any military activity was in those days. Even news about a single service man being flown in from battle. As the public was frequently told, "Loose Lips Sink Ships." The concern was that anyone who knew what arm of the service her fiance was in, and what outfit, could piece together battle information and pass it on to whomever collected such stuff. Other Pagan Web boards I've been on have repeatedly said that Ouija boards are connected with "low level spirits," some of whom like to create havoc for fun and others who like to create havoc for unpleasant purposes. That was my only experience with Ouija, and I'm unlikely to try it again.

tarotbear	31 Jan 2005
I got my (first and only) ouija board as a child, for Christmas -- from Santa Claus! It was a cool/dumb thing to take to parties. After all, it was made by the Milton Bradley Company - who made dozens of children's games ... why worry about it? It never really bothered me, and we sat there on the porch, in the car, under trees with the board balanced on our knees and our fingertips balanced on the planchett. All we ever got was babble. Of course, we never did anything dumb like do it at midnight or call on 'spirits' to talk to our dead ancestors or anything... However, I became very aware that you make the indicator thingie move by yourself ... most of the time. It got so I would move the damn thing and spell out stuff and the other participants were oblivious to what I was doing! How corny can you get? Nothing ever 'bad' or 'creepy' ever happened to me. However, after the age of 16 or so I became interested in the occult in periferal ways, and started to understand that there is 'stuff' out there that you don't want to mess with, and lighting black candles and calling on 'spirits' to knock three times and that sort of bull***t will get you more than you bargained for. I tucked the ouija board between a large piece of furniture and the wall ... and every now and then the board would slide out and be on the floor. No - I don't believe there is a leigon or two of spirits hanging around outside the Milton Bradley factory waiting for the next truckload of ouija boards to be delivered to Wal*Mart for you to buy and bring home with you. But I do believe you should not open doors that you cannot close, and opening that door with the assistance of a ouija board will bring you a heap of trouble. I gave that ouija board away many years ago; I was glad to get it out of my house.

Dark Inquisitor	31 Jan 2005
tarotbear wrote: I got my (first and only) ouija board as a child, for Christmas -- from Santa Claus! Your Santa must have been very different from mine..! (Did he look like Stephen King?)

Umbrae	01 Feb 2005
Hold the phone… You mean Tarot is not evil? Well crap…33 years of study for nothing…I guess it’s back to cattle mutilations, sex, and drugs... Yo Satan buddy…wait up…you know what I just heard…?

Kara	01 Feb 2005
lol @ umbrae American duality is fascinating... I mean no where else is it easier to gain access to such a variety of spiritual learning tools, info, etc., maybe the UK is on a similiar level. I think this whole wave started in the States and then went around the world. I can't imagine any other country, not even Denmark, or the Netherlands with a community like Lily Dale, I was stunned when I read about it in a different posting. Are there any others like that anywhere else? I don't know, I've just never heard of it. But some of those puritanical views are unique too...two sides of a coin. The need for security, and the need for freedom.

Lady Mary	01 Feb 2005
JamieSmith wrote: Why Do People Think Tarot Cards Are So Evil?Is It Because There Afraid They Might Be Right?What Do You Think! Catholic Europe: Why did they believe (were made to believe) that it was evil to think that the Earth and all the other planets revolved around the sun? Why did they only care a couple of years ago to acknowledge that they were wrong? Why did they kill Giordano Bruno? Why did they prosecute all these women and men, burned them on the stakes? Why do they up to this date believe that homosexuality is a disease and a sin? It's all about power and greed (one of the 7 deadly sins by the way).

tarotbear	01 Feb 2005
Why did the church practically order the killing of all cats - seen as instruments of Satan? See Evil where there is none. Killing the cats led to the proliferation of rats and the fleas that carried the plague. (oversimplified, I know)

Lady Mary	01 Feb 2005
Hey Tarotbear - you got it! See evil where there is none distracts from so many other things that might not be kosher.

April	01 Feb 2005
This is great because I finally got to use all of the arguments I found on Aeclectic (and some of my own) on Friday night. I was having drinks with a girl who I knew to have issues with my Tarot cards. I don't remember the entire conversation because, like I said, we'd had a few, but I think she really believed that they are the work of the devil. I explained a few theories on why it works, one not involving any spirits at all, and how the skilled and ethical readers have been overshadowed by the crooks and media stereotypes. She still doesn't want a reading but she really seemed to understand my explainations. So I agree with most everything here. It's fear or ignorance or both. But sometimes it's stuborness about the fear and ignorance, which can be much more frustrating. My friend in the above story was afraid and ignorant (of Tarot, anyway), but at least she kept an open mind. I refuse to argue the validity of Tarot with anyone who doesn't care to hear another side. Nor should the ignorant person try to start one, but whatcha gonna do? One more short story to illustrate. I don't believe in astrology at all. But I'm slowly learning a little here and there so when the time comes I can have a more intelligent argument than, "Astrology is stupid." Peace, April

Kara	02 Feb 2005
I was scared of the Tarot as a child and it wasn't even because of my family, my Mom especially is pretty open towards this. It was society around me in retrospect, which was very christian.., you just knew this was something not be taken lightly. Back then, we were living in New Jersey, and from our local library I had borrowed all these books about the legend of the Jersey Devil, so I was scared already, and then the Tarot -OMG. There was another book I remember reading at the time, about out of body experiences(waay over my head, but the topic interested me, sounded like flying;-). I was constantly reading fantasy and those cheap horror novels for girls, mystery or something along those lines, so those books were the next step I guess. Of course in Sunday School we all heard the story of the witch of Endor(I think??, someone correct me here, the one a king in the old testament went to see to speak with a dead prophet), and that divination was baaad. Back in the OT days or deep dark middle ages people were probably so superstitious they needed some regulation like this... but nowadays, we know that little voice in our head is just ourselves, most of the time anyways, and we don't base our decisions on the flight of crows (or do we?). Many people are afraid of things they think they can't control, me included(like the above mentioned OBE, there's no way I'm leaving this body before I die), of new things, I'm not saying anything new here.. But what if some people think that using Tarot or any kind of divination is a sign of weakness, that human's don't need that, we're strong enough and important enough, standing higher-than-the-angels enough to deal with everything that comes our way without having to resort to such 'methods'. Kind of like the image of the extreme religious being weak, fleeing into their religion. Is there really a big difference?

NightWing	10 Feb 2005
I agree that at least in America, there are many evangelical, fundamentalist, Christian Churches and individual people who condemn Tarot, and for various reasons,...mostly based on this or that passage in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible. There is abundant evidence of that. They don't make a secret of their dislike of divination. But since they condemn practically everyone and everything not a part of their particular narrow slant of "Christianity",...well, why should I care? We're all damned in their eyes for something or other anyway. But Ace wrote about the Catholic Church condemning Tarot. Well, I've searched, but I can't find a single document or official doctrine of the Catholic Church that even mentions Tarot, let alone condemns it.(Card playing was once briefly banned in the late Middle Ages). Some individual Catholics may have concerns about Tarot. Some ignore it. Other Catholics find it pointless. But Tarot officially condemned by the authorities of the Catholic Church? I don't think so. There are practicing Catholics who use Tarot. Past Popes even commissioned tarot decks. The current Pope has been photographed with a book of Tarot Meditations on his desk, written by a good friend of his.(That appeared elsewhere on this forum). Ace, if you or anyone else can produce proof of the Catholic Church officially condemning Tarot, or Tarot Readers, please do so. I'd be very interested in that. Otherwise, by making unsupported claims as you did on this topic, you only cause problems for Catholics who are also into Tarot. I don't know why you would want to do that.

Junia	11 Feb 2005
Quote posted from Kara, ". . . and we don't base our decisions on the flight of crows (or do we?)." I only worry Kara if they are flying overhead and might poop on my head. Little joke here. I was surprised that anyone outside of being a Mormon like most of my relatives was banned from evil playing cards as the person who was raised Lutheran mentioned earlier. I do know that a lot of Mormonism's symbolism comes from FreeMasonry (which Joseph Smith (the writer/translator of the "Book of Mormon" was prior to founding the religion). There are also symbols on the Salt Lake Temple on all corners of the different phases of the moon. The East Door is never opened because that is the entrance that Jesus Christ will use when he returns. Also there are many "signs and tokens" in the temple rites themselves that people make. Some people here joke about the secret handshake stuff. I have never been through the temple. I think though that this explains some of the fears here that there are commitments being made (because they are made by Mormons) when you use the decks. Also, there is the gambling aspect with playing cards which is forbidden. I don't know if anyone here has addressed, in this discussion at least, the significance of the playing cards resemblence to derivative suits of the Tarot cards. Kings, Queens, Jacks (Pages), clubs, spades, hearts and diamonds all appear in both decks. Also, anything that is seen as occultism and witchcraft are forbiden. Living in Utah, I still am careful not to discuss Tarot with people. They may not burn me at the stake, but I might be stirred into a big vat of green jello for time and all eternity. (Local joke, sorry.) Somewhere there is an adage that, "anything used for good can be used for evil." Unfortunately, it is the evil that people focus on instead of the good. You know, "if it bleeds, it leads" and all that jazz. I continually see such thoughtful good-willed people here--that I can hardly believe anyone thinks anything but good about any of you. The main message that I see here is: How can I help myself towards enlightenment (excuse the worn out catch phrase), and in turn help other people when I can. Thank you for letting me be part of your community!! Junia

seapearls	11 Feb 2005
Everyone answered all the reasons already but I found this thread interesting, yes fear of twhat they do not understand summs up everythign to me. I'm going to pick out a beautiful deck on here and e-mail it to my sister to get her reaction. LOL My mother also asked me if I was joining a cult when I 1st mentioned Pagan to her. Then I had to explain the difference in cult and occult. LOL People crack me up.

psychic sue	12 Feb 2005
I think it's because the bible says somewhere that fortune tellers are evil, or something like that. I don't really see tarot as fortune telling. It's more about guidance from your higher self. A reading is a two-way thing. Many times people have sat opposite me and said "I'm not going to tell you anything at all, just read the cards for me". Although I find reading for a stranger more accurate than reading for a friend (for obvious reasons), it seems ridiculous for them to think that I have to guess their question! I gently explain to these people that the more they tell me, the more I will be able to help them. Have others expeirienced this assumption that you are performing a party trick?

tarotbear	12 Feb 2005
psychic sue wrote: Have others expeirienced this assumption that you are performing a party trick? Yes - always. The interesting thing is that 99.44% of the time, I can give these skeptics such an accurate reading that it blows their narrow little minds away. I always thank the goddess for that! The trick (for you) is to raise the stakes so that you rise above the 'parlour game' mentality. I remember that during the first classes I taught in Adult Ed that we were using a classroom and the teacher who's room it was suddenly appeared during my class to retrieve something, and did not like 'what' i was teaching in 'his' room. He turned into an abusing a**hole in front of my class, degrading us, the usual crap. At one point he turned to me and said 'Why should I have to tell you anything? Don't you know it already?' I stopped, and in one of those commanding voices that I reserve for a**holes I said : I AM NOT HERE TO 'ENTERTAIN' YOU! He left rather quickly after that.

psychic sue	12 Feb 2005
Well done! I agree that acurate readings can be given without any knowledge of a question, and I have done it many times - but I find that when you hit the nail on the head, people look at you as though you are some sort of devil!! I just think people would get so much more from a reading if they realised that if they participate they are going to get more insight into themselves.

tarotbear	12 Feb 2005
Dear psychic sue - I have probably mentioned this one time-too-many before, but one time I had a paying querent who kept repeating the whole time "I know this is all bullsh*t! I know this is all bullsh*t!" I finally looked at her and said 'If all you expect is BULLSH*T, all you are going to get is BULLSH*T for an answer!" She kept her mouth shut for the remainder of her reading. {I tend to suspect that I was hitting the nails right on the head, and it made her uncomfortable. I have a tendency to do that.}

Junia	13 Feb 2005
I've been thinking since I last posted on this question, a rather dangerous endeavor at best, and I have another little light bulb that I don't think has been expressed here yet. Although, control has been discussed before. What if the thought process is we don't want you to be able to talk to God, the Universe, etc. yourself? We want you to take our "canned knowledge" based on how we want our view of things construed and any talking to God is done by us. You don't have the authority, right, whatever to do it. It keeps us in our place. I believe in God and I do believe in a loving one with whom I can communicate and who now has a way to "talk back to me" through the Tarot. Not only that but, heaven forbid, everyone else has those same rights (or rites, pun to all you wiccans and pagans out there, hehehe). What I'd like to know is--why anyone else afraid of what God might say to me? Also, along these lines there was a news bulletin the other day regarding a poll survey of American Teenagers (highschoolers) who were asked if they thought the U.S. Government should be allowed to censure what people say. The majority said that our government should be allowed to edit things that someone says. These kids are too young to remember a time when say in the '60's or even WWII Germany--music, art and free speech were punishable when it went against the incumbency of those times. I do think that we are seeing a very definite return to the "righteous right" in our country which I find disturbing. I remember a bumper sticker that I used to see all the time here that said, "Think for yourself." When it comes to Tarot and God (and when I need good advice from all of you {which is always welcome}), what I THINK I will do.

psychic sue	13 Feb 2005
Junia wrote: You don't have the authority, right, whatever to do it. It keeps us in our place. I believe in God and I do believe in a loving one with whom I can communicate and who now has a way to "talk back to me" through the Tarot. I do think that we are seeing a very definite return to the "righteous right" in our country which I find disturbing. This is one of the reasons I don't like organised religion. The Catholic Church tells us we have to confess to a priest, who can then give us absolution. Why is the priest necessary? Why can we not simply talk to God ourselves (I too believe in a loving God) and ask for our own forgiveness? As you say Junia, this is the way religion keeps us in our place. When George Bush was recently re-elected, many people in the UK were surprised. I don't think many people in UK realise how strong christianity is in USA and how important the Christian Vote is to any would-be candidate for President. The UK is a tolerant society, and in its larger Cities (I live in the second largest) many cultures live side by side. In fact, there are many muslims living in Britain and one of my best friends is a muslim. He was horrified at 9/11, (like most people), and feared a backlash. But that just hasn't happened. I am of Irish descent, and in the 70's several bombs we detonated in Birmingham pubs by the IRA. Many people died. But of course, that doesn't mean all Irish people are members of the IRA, just as not all Muslims are members of Al-Qauyada. I too fear the political climate, not just in US but the whole world over. These are truly worrying times. By the way, I have no intention of insulting anyone by my comments, these are just some thoughts that came to mind when I read your post. I believe we are brothers, and we should work together to try and leave peacefully with one another.

Mabuse	13 Feb 2005
People use Tarot for "fortune-telling" and also the standard 52 card deck. There are also such uses for the European 32 or 36 card decks. Though I do not share the same disdain that Michael Dummett is reputed to have regarding the popular divination uses of Tarot, I do think it is problematic that Tarot is widely presented in our culture as being synonymous with things "occultic." Tarot is, in essence, a gaming device which has often been appropriated for various philosophical uses. I think that marketing should reflect this fact. In this new century I think it would be beneficial in terms of removing fears in some sectors if those in the Tarot industry (US Games et al) were to adequately promote Tarot as a classic card game as it is recognised in France. They could sell more decks that way and, thus, be good for business. Those apprehensive of "taromancy" to coin a word, may not be so fearful of the actual cards if Tarot were to be presented in a gaming context. I presume this is why there is a lack of this fear in such places as Italy, the birthplace of the Tarocchi game. It has been said that there is a correspondence between Chess and the I Ching (64 squares) much like the connection between the 22 Majors and Kabbalah but I don't think anyone is afraid of chess sets or claim such sets are evil.

EricTheHermit	13 Feb 2005
Tarot cards are evil? So the conservative Christians say, and it comes as no surprise to me. Americans have always been a backward and reactionary people. The pilgrim settlers were Puritans - orthodox Christian extremists who wanted English law and government to be based strictly on their interpretation of the Bible. The King told them that wasn't going to happen, and if they didn't like it, they could get the f--- out, so they got the f--- out and set sail on the Mayflower. When the Pilgrims reached the New World - America - they had no idea how to make a home there and started getting sick and starving. So, they formed brigand parties and robbed Indian villages, stealing every crumb of food and killing any Indian who objected. They eventually made peace with the godless savages - for the time being, until they needed more land and decided to wipe the Indians out. The government the Pilgrims established was a paranoid, reactionary Christian theocracy. Little has changed. How reactionary are we? America has been an independent country for about 230 years. About 140 years ago, it was legal for some Americans to buy, own, and sell other human beings. Just 63 years ago, over 100,000 American citizens were forcibly removed from their homes and interned in concentration camps for the crime of being Japanese, and the majority of Americans thought it was a great idea. Just 45 years ago, it was legal to force some Americans to go to different schools and use different water fountains and public restrooms than others. Just 30 years ago, women gained the legal right to decide the fate of their own bodies. The Christian theocratists keep fighting for their way of life. In the state of Kansas, a state court ruled that public school boards can force teachers to teach Christian theology (Creationism) instead of scientific fact (evolutionary theory). Only Christian theology, of course. Buddhism, Judaism, Wicca, and other religions have no place in the classroom, because, after all, Christianity is the only real religion. All others are false. This monstrous arrogance has resulted in a lot of anti-Semitism in America, as well as intolerance of other non-Christian faiths. In public schools, students can wear crosses and Stars of David, but not pentacles. Pentacles are not recognized as symbols of the Wiccan faith - they are considered occult symbols and forbidden. I was raised Catholic, but left the Church in disgust years ago. Even my mother, who was a devout Catholic, left the Church not long after I did. My father never had any use for religion. My mother was also into spiritualism and astrology, and didn't believe they were sinful or evil. The idea that tarot cards are evil is preposterous. They are filled with Christian symbolism. The Devil card has nothing to do with Old Nick. It's a card about being in bondage to one's material desires. As Buddha said, suffering is caused by want. To all American tarot readers, I say this - come out of the closet! Let the zealots know you exist and that you're neither evil nor insane. To non-American readers, be glad you that you don't live here. :) - Eric

Fudugazi	13 Feb 2005
EricTheHermit wrote: Americans have always been a backward and reactionary people. I'm not American, and I have my issues with some aspects of your country - but that's going a tad far. You have a progressive constitution (well, mostly) and guaranteed freedom of religion, including for Wicca. Try being a Wicca, or gay, or a Jew, or a woman, or a tarot reader, or drinking a glass of wine, in some countries I can think of. As far as I understand, tarot card readers can be frowned upon by some fundamentalist Christians, but how far does that go? I recently read Tarot de Marseille for some friends of my parents (liberal Europeans), both of them Church-going Republicans (we avoid discussing politics with them; they are a really nice couple) - and they were asking for more! It's just that, like most people in the world, Americans don't always live according to their best principles. Join the club! At least you have those principles upheld by law, including the right to read tarot on your front lawn in the middle of the Bible belt, if you like.

EricTheHermit	13 Feb 2005
I see where you're coming from. I said and I meant that the majority of Americans - not all, but the majority - are reactionary by nature. I stand by my statements. We have a President who lied to us, waged an illegal war on a country that had nothing to do with the 9-11 attacks, a war that my grandchildren will being paying for (I'm only 34) and still, the majority of Americans re-elected him. And Bush - a Christian fundamentalist - makes no secret of his intention to erode the wall between Church and State brick by brick. The Supreme Court and federal appeals courts are stacked with conservative judges. Already, these courts have decided that taxpayer money can be used to pay for tuition at Christian private schools, if parents want to take their kids out of poorly performing public schools. That means that non-Christian taxpayers are forced to subsidize Christian private schools via their taxes. Despite all of this, the majority of Americans support Bush. Well, not exactly. His approval rating did slip to 49% this week, down from 52%. Maybe there's hope for us yet. :) - Eric

The Dreamer	13 Feb 2005
In the united states, nobody "plays cards" using tarot cards. Sure, chess and other games (and other materials which were never games) can also be used as an oracle. But it seems a little disingenuous to me to say that people should try to market tarot as a card game to get others not to be afraid of it- what some people are afraid of is the divinatory uses of it. To say that churches should have no problem with tarot because what could be interpreted as christian symbolism appears on some cards makes no sense to me. If you really want to get inside the mindset of a religious person who believes the tarot is evil- consider this: many christians are taught that satan comes as "an angel of light" and that satan is "a liar". The most convincing liars don't tell a blatant untruth, but a convincing story of mostly truth around that untruth. When one is coming from the viewpoint of being on the lookout for "satan's lies", tarot (especially if it is laced with christian symbolism- I won't argue whether it is or isn't, but many think that it is) looks like a pretty good candidate as a "false religion" which many christians are on the lookout for. I never encountered prohibitions against tarot when I was in the catholic church. Others may have encountered such prohibition- I haven't looked much into the catholic church's relationship to tarot. Historical relation between the church and tarot (and the history of the cards themselves) doesn't interest me much. What interests me is the fact that divination of any kind with any material works. (If one wanted to find some scriptural basis for prohibitions against divination- well, the "witch of endor" is commonly cited. But, the magi were astrologers. The old testment priests used the Urrim and Thummim. Looks contradictory to me. Doesn't matter to me, though, since I don't believe that the bible is the word of god.) I was raised catholic, (never heard much about divination while in the church), left the catholic church at 17 and then became more generally "christian" for about two years. My reasons for leaving the church were that it did not seem at the time to me like the truest version of christianity (and on top of that, the power structure of the church I had problems with.) After trying to find a truer version of christianity by going more to "the source"- the bible- I found that I could not regard the bible as true. (I'd never taken it as literally true, and after looking deeper into it- its content, and its historical basis- I could no longer consider it even metaphorically true.) It just looked like a mass of contradiction to me which was neither internally consistent nor with good historical basis nor with good metaphorical usefulness. I agonized for quite a while that my not being able to accept the bible might be keeping me from the truth. (What if it really was true- even if it looked like it wasn't? The truth is seldom obvious, after all.) My whole deal is to want to know the truth. I feared the occult when I still half heartedly believed in christianity because I feared that occult practices might be tools of deception. I feared the occult in general as a child (this had nothing to do with the catholic church) because I feared the unknown and the uncontrollable in general. After I no longer believed in christianity, I still feared the occult because of the residual fear that I might be wrong about whether christianity was true, and also because I feared the unknown and uncontrollable in general. I also tend to take a scientific testing based viewpoint toward things, as a way to try to understand them. Many occult and psychic phenomena are hard to test scientifically. It's difficult to disentangle the human subjective element (are people just fooling themselves about divination and other related phenomena?) From the phenomenon itself. A person who takes a viewpoint of seeking proof about occult phenomena has good reason to fear being misled by such phenomena. The person cares about the truth, and considers it tragic for people to be misled. I started using tarot online (free automated card draws.) I found that it did work for divination- to describe situations, and occasionally to predict situations. I liked the fact that there was no human card- handling element involved - that showed that the results were not based upon my subconsiously shuffling and choosing the right cards. I did not interpret in an intuitive way. I interpreted as literally by the book as possible. I liked the fact that doing that eliminated vagaries of interpretation. I tested the truth of tarot's divinatory usefulness again and again and got real proof again and again. If I had approached it in any other way, I would not have been able to believe that divination really worked. I say this because it is important to understanding the viewpoint of someone who has a scientific "prove it to me" mindset. A person who says "why should I have to tell you anything? Don't you know it already?" Is not necessarily saying that to be abusive, or a smartass, or generally difficult; that person may indeed be as far from seeing tarot as a "parlor game" of entertainment as they possibly could be. What they are looking for in wanting to get answers without feeding the reader information, or in wanting to see some prediction of the future, is proof. Divination is a powerful thing. It can be "proved" (though not always in the ways we'd like). Showing people how it can work may be more useful in converting them to the "cause" (or at least gaining their tolerance of it) than disdaining them. (If in fact you do want to convince them). Understanding the reasons for their fears could help you know how better to allay their fears. Show. Don't manipulate and don't disdain. I myself am not interested in convincing anyone. I just know that tarot works for me. I don't know that it would work for everyone. For me, it has been a predictive tool. And one not based upon being a good reader or upon my intuition (which I do have [- it developed after i began to use tarot, but i don't know if it was because of tarot- maybe-] but I don't apply it to tarot interperetation.) I no longer fear being misled by it, because I haven't been misled by it. I no longer fear it being "of the devil"- because I have found it to be useful in seeking understanding and truth, and any god who is against that, I am against. I do not read for others. I am happy with using the tarot as a powerful tool for my own insight. Everyone is on their own journey. Maybe we can understand each other better along the way.

silvertears	13 Feb 2005
Ace wrote: We have a pact: when we meet in Heaven, he will get a card reading. that's absolutely amusing. i like it.

NightWing	13 Feb 2005
I too hope for greater understanding, justice, and acceptance between people of varying beliefs, cultures, nations, and politics. I fear that the world and the powers thereof are not headed in that direction. The Balkans, Nigeria, China, Iraq, Sudan, Iran, Korea, the United States, Burma, and so many other places of iniquity and injustice do not foster a lot of optimism. You may agree that at least there are indications of better things/times to be found within Tarot, and elsewhere. Perhaps it provides a thread of hope where so often there isn't much else!

EricTheHermit	13 Feb 2005
The Dreamer wrote: I feared the occult when I still half heartedly believed in christianity because I feared that occult practices might be tools of deception. I feared the occult in general as a child (this had nothing to do with the catholic church) because I feared the unknown and the uncontrollable in general. I was the exact opposite as a child. When I was about 5 years old, I discovered my mother's Ouija board. She was a devout Catholic and raised me Catholic, (Dad had no use for religion) but she was also into spiritualism and astrology. I loved the Ouija board. I felt such positive energy when my mother and I used it. Unfortunately, when our spirit friend spelled its name - which sounded ancient Egyptian - Mom got freaked out and threw out the board. I guess when something has a name put to it, that makes it real - not just a planchette tugging at your fingertips. :) This experience gave me heightened perception and a burning curiousity about the mysteries of the universe. I didn't discover tarot until much later, but when I was 11, after reading a lot about the subject, I decided to explore paganism. It seemed like a lovely, refreshing alternative to the Catholic Church. I even built a makeshift altar in my bedroom, with a butter knife for an athame, and a wine glass for a chalice. You can imagine my mother's reaction to that. :) But, she was a liberal like Dad, and wouldn't prohibit me from reading about Wicca or other occult subjects. I never did become a real pagan / Wiccan, but I did leave the Church in disgust by the time I started college. I haven't practiced religion since then. I'm now what you'd call a New Ager. :) I see the tarot as a great tool for self-development and helping others. It amazes me how this collection of 78 printed pictures can unlock the doors of self perception and understanding just as well as a therapist. Doing a reading for yourself is a great therapeutic exercise. It gives you understanding, a strong sense of self, and most importantly, hope. Your future is in your hands. All the cards can do is point you in the right direction. - Eric

souljourney	13 Feb 2005
I'm not sure why my husband thinks tarot is evil. He thinks it invokes spirits. And that they are evil, cuz the Bible specifically says not to see fortune-tellers. Or charlitons (?sp). He's not in town a lot...but when he is all my tarot stuff goes to a friends. He won't allow it in the house. But...I think I found a deck to keep around, no reference to elements, nothing like that. Even businesses use it. The Big Idea deck. It is tarot, it just never says that... I think it's fear... they fear what they don't understand, but are too afraid to find out if it's bad or not. SJ

The Dreamer	13 Feb 2005
Another thing about some people in the christian community's views on divination- (now, I'm speaking not from my own views, but from those gleaned from others secondhand)- is both the fear of and "rebuking of" forbidden knowledge. Many christians believe that one must rely upon god (as they hear from "Him") and "god's word" as the only sources of guidance and understanding. (Not all christians believe this, of course- I never encountered such ideas in the Catholic church- and there are many tarot readers who consider themselves christian. But this is a viewpoint I often encounter among those in the evangelical christian community.) I know that many users of tarot see it as no more supernatural than a good therapy session. I do tend to view it as "supernatural", though, in a way- I still do not know why it works and in my experience more is going on in divination than just a psychological mirroring. Some christians find divination to be something to stay away from, not only because of the prohibitions they've encountered against it, but also because since they can't explain why it may work they must attribute it to spirits. And why not evil spirits. My mother left the catholic church as well and later became a "born again" christian. In the period between those two events, she investigated a lot of "new age" religious practices. (She likes to say that she did everything else first before being born again. I consider that quite an exaggeration.) She went to psychics and got no advice she found useful there. She investigated astrology a little, but not in depth, and didn't get much understanding there. She used the I Ching a lot- and likes to use that as a cautionary tale to tell others- she felt she couldn't leave the house without consulting it and felt "bound by it" and "in bondage to it". That has not been my experience with divination. For my mother and many who share her views, christianity and its prohibitions provide great comfort and seeming guidance. Who am I to tell them otherwise. Works for them. As for tarot- they're allowed to avoid it and be afraid of it, if that's their belief. It doesn't neccessarily make them cowards, or stupid, or uneducated if they do. (And the fear of hell and evil spirits are pretty good reasons for them to avoid it, from the viewpoint of their belief system.) My guiding principle is to seek the truth. Theirs is to seek god. For myself, I'll believe in god (or tarot, or anything else), only if I can find sufficient proof that I should; but others don't see it that way- or have different standards for proof. People have beliefs. People have temperaments. People have experiences. People draw conclusions. Understandable.

EricTheHermit	13 Feb 2005
Whenever I hear some self-righteous religious yahoo say that things like tarot cards are evil or sinful "because the bible says they're an affront to God" this is what I tell them. I say, okay buddy, let's look at something the bible says that God allows - incest between father and daughter. In chapter 19 of Genesis, God destroys the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah for their wickedness. After Sodom is destroyed, Lot - a righteous man favored by God - and his wife and their virginal daughters flee. Lot's wife makes the mistake of looking back at her burning home, thus questioning God, so she is turned to salt. Lot, now a widower, takes up residence in a cave with his two daughters. Since Lot is the last man left in Sodom, and God requires all good women to bear children, Lot's daughters decide to have sex with him. They do, and both get pregnant with their father's children. According to God, Lot has not sinned, because he was drunk at the time, and the only sin committed by his daughters was taking advantage of their father when his judgement was impaired by alcohol. They waited until their father was drunk because they didn't know if he would have consented otherwise. If Lot had not been drunk, he could have consented and his daughters would not have sinned to get what they wanted - children by their father. That just goes to show you that anyone who bases his life on the literal contents of the bible is a fool. The New Testament does give a basic blueprint for living a good life - be compassionate, don't lie, don't kill, don't cheat on your wife - but the rest should be taken with a grain of salt. The bible is filled with so much contradiction and inconsistency, it's no wonder the Catholic Church never stressed bible study in Sunday school the way the Protestants do. That's why the Catholic Church created a Catechism - a 700+ page book of Church laws, rules, and regulations, most of which also don't make sense. :) - Eric

The Dreamer	13 Feb 2005
You'll get no argument from me about the inconsistency and immorality of the the bible and especially the old testament. However, people of every bent hold beliefs which are not entirely consistent or rational. Calling them fools because of it seems a bit extreme, in my opinon. Many have never felt the need to examine their beliefs, because those beliefs work for them. We all have unexamined beliefs and attitudes. My only problem with such beliefs is with others trying to convert me or to control what others are allowed to do or see or investigate.

The Dreamer	13 Feb 2005
And calling somebody a fool is a pretty good way to insure that they will not listen to what you're saying. If they're so foolish, perhaps they are incapable of the thought necessary to investigate their own beliefs. Why try to convince them, in that case. And, if you're not trying to convince them- I guess you're just making fun of how stupid they are. That doesn't seem very productive.

The Dreamer	13 Feb 2005
I understand your frustration, though. I have been known to call people stupid because of their beliefs also, in the past. I no longer see doing that as particularly true or useful.

EricTheHermit	14 Feb 2005
Dreamer - A fool is not an idiot. A fool has the capability to question his beliefs, but refuses to, either out of fear, indifference, or indignation. In the case of Christian fundamenatlists, it's mostly about fear. From generation to generation, these people have been taught by their parents and pastors that every word contained in the bible is the literal truth and not to be questioned at all, or the penalty is eternal damnation. So, even if a person's conscience tells them that it seems wrong to, for example, hate homosexuals because of one vague line in the bible, they won't question that belief outside their own mind for fear of damnation and ostracision. And besides, who are they to disagree with the bible? The koran is the same way. The meaning of jihad, as described in the koran, is highly debateable. It is described in such a deeply metaphoric manner that clerics can twist it around to mean just about anything. One thing is spelled out very clearly in the koran: to take someone's life is the most detestable sin in the eyes of Allah. So how is it that some Muslim fundamentalists never questioned the taking of innocent life in Allah's name? Are these men stupid? No, they are very smart men who believe that terrorism is condoned by their bible, the koran. They refuse to question this belief. When the time comes, they are prepared to sacrifice innocent lives as well as their own to fullfill what they believe is their obligation as outlined in their bible. They do it as nonchalantly as they would do their laundry. These men are fools. There is no other word for them. What really scares me is that our President, the leader of the most powerful country in the world, is another such fool. He governs the country and makes decisions based on his religion's literal interpretation of the bible. He actually believes, without question, that someday, God will suck all the devout Christians up into the clouds and let the rest of the world literally go to hell. It never occurs to him that this scenario makes no sense whatsoever. Why would a caring God callously allow the bulk of his creation to be destroyed, saving only a chosen few? Why give the people of the world his son if they're truly beyond salvation? Only the Christian fundamentalists believe in this "end times" crap. The Catholic Church doesn't. They see the bible's book of Revelations as simply a metaphor illustrating the necessity of holding on to one's faith in the face of overwhelming odds, and what can happen if you surrender your faith to false prophets with seemingly good intentions. It's also, in my opinion, a scare tactic used by the early Church used to ensure a plentiful harvest of converts and loyal communicants. When I see all the damage caused by this unyielding religious fundamentalism, I do get frustrated. Maybe the word is a little harsh, but it sure sounds like foolishness to me. - Eric

The Dreamer	14 Feb 2005
Eric- If someone calls me a fool, I take that to mean that they think I am less intelligent than they are. I am an intelligent person, and not easily fooled. I understand your distinction between fool and idiot, though, and you probably mean it exactly that way. In that sense, you're a lot more tolerant than I have been in the past- "stupid" is the first word which comes to my mind when considering the religious ideas which you have just recounted. And I've considered them quite a lot. So has my older brother, a highly intelligent catholic; my sister in law, an intelligent former religion teacher; my sister, an intelligent woman who has gone on many missions trips; my younger brother, an intelligent guy who considers christianity very useful to his life; my intelligent father, who once considered becoming a priest; my mother, an intelligent and not easily fooled evangelical; and many other people who I've met who believe in christianity and other religions and who can come up with intelligently thought out and convoluted reasons for why they should believe their religious doctrines. People have complex reasons for believing what they do. Fear sometimes is a major factor in the beliefs of christian fundamentalists- and I find it abhorrent that religious leaders propogate it and that people succumb to it. However, those who have such fears may also have many other reasons for their beliefs- some which are not irrational, and some which are postitive reasons which have nothing to do with rationality or foolishness one way or the other. I know many fundamentalists who came to the religion regardless of the nonbelief of their parents, and despite pastors who they disagree with. I just think that if we are really trying to understand why people believe tarot is evil, it is worth considering the views of people who believe that from their own perspectives. As for changing the frustating state of religious and political and intellectual matters in the world- well, I just think that calling each other names won't change anybody's mind. It's just preaching to the converted. Those who already believe the way you do (that the religious beliefs that you mentioned are foolish) may be glad to hear you say such things- but those who don't believe that will only feel more polarized from people who think as you (and I) do on this subject if they hear us speak of it in that way. By the way, is the way that you view tarot rational? Perhaps you are fooling yourself. A little tolerance goes a long way toward understanding. The title of this thread, after all, starts with the word "why"- not the words "isn't it terrrible that.." :)

Kit	14 Feb 2005
My father fears my interest in tarot and anything the majority of society find unconventional or not widely acceptable primarily beacause he doesn't understand it and he fears for me- he seems to think I'm likely to get sucked into some strange cult :rolleyes: . He spotted me scribbling pentagrams onto a notebook cover once and freaked out ("those are witch symbols!!! I don't ever want to see you drawing anything like that on books again!"). This is why I feel I have to hide anything tarot-ish from him (my decks and books live under the bottom draw of my dressing table when not in use ;) ). Most people fear anything they do not understand or care to understand. Many misconceptions about tarot, divination, paganism etc have been sown by the Christian church. :( I hope that one day these misconceptions will be broken down so that others can be more accepting of tarot and other misconceived topics. Kit

Junia	14 Feb 2005
I think that the saddest thing that I have had to come to grips with in this world is that my idealism has been tarnished. I grew up LDS was Episcopalian for 13 or so years and now am a "generic" christian. Christ said only one thing that matters, "love one another as I have loved you." The Christ I follow (and I love reading the Tao Te Ching, sayings of Buddah, the Dalai Lama) and anyone and everyone who repeats that love and compassion is the best way to answer anyone and anything negative. I get most frustrated with myself when I fail to live up to this ideal. Christ hated the theocracy of the Jews because they burdened the people with monetary hardships and laws and saw them as an abomination. He ate, lived and ministered to tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers and other people "shunned" by the priests. My SO and I often talk about "A Second Coming" in which Jesus Christ will be so angry at the evil and injustice done in his name and in churches bearing his name and they would be so surprised when he condemned them for what they did and not who they target. So, I guess I am a "Christian" Tarot reader. Incidentally a man by the name of Greenberg has written an interesting book, "101 Myths in the Bible." You guys would be amazed at the contradictions, errors, etc. that are considered "Bible Facts". The only thing I ever learned from Jesus Christ is the above-saying. That is the only thing worth repeating from the Bible and the only thing necessary to be a true "Christian." Does anyone remember a quote from Ladyhawke where Matthew Broderick is talking to the old priest and says, "Funny, I talk to God all the time and he never mentioned you." Just a little lightheartedness here. If anyone would be interest in a thread discussing solely the Christian symbolism in the Tarot, and what my SO and I have been saying is how can you ignore that link to Christianity since its symbolism is inherent in the cards. I think it would be a great thread. Who knows maybe we won't convert them, but we could have a lot of fun exploring ourselves. It would be nice to see some of these wounds healed. My heart bleeds for all of you who have been hurt by people who don't truly understand that Christ came to heal not to wound other people. I believe that God weeps for all of "his?" creation that suffers and that Jesus Christ would not condone atrocities done in his name or would cut anyone off just because they are Muslims, Jews, Catholics not Protestants, Wiccans, Tarotologists, etc., but, I have since ceased my soap box preaching at other Christians because I always get the "my way or the highway" feedback. I was volunteering for an evangelical organization and was shocked dead when I was told that those who didn't believe in Christ are, "going to Hell." I think that we must not know the same Jesus Christ and hence the ancedote from Ladyhawke. We are all in this together. Love you all--goodnight for now!

similia	14 Feb 2005
Junia wrote: I was volunteering for an evangelical organization and was shocked dead when I was told that those who didn't believe in Christ are, "going to Hell." There's a great passage in Matthew 8, where Jesus tells a pagan that he has more faith than anyone in Israel (i.e. Judaism) and will be among the many "from the east and the west" (i.e. non Jewish) in heaven, when "subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness". Guess a good pagan, is better than a bad Christian.

Junia	14 Feb 2005
Similia--great quote. I remember that one although had forgotten the pagan take on it. Eric and the Dreamer, I guess I consider myself The Fool 0. I actually thought of using that as my avatar for this web site. We all start out as the innocent goof-ball walking merrily off of his cliff in any endeavor. I guess we make choices though about whether or not we stay there. One of the things that drew me to The Tarot was the fact that it started out (as nearly as we can tell) from Christian beginnings. The Devil card most interests me because it shows a man and woman chained to the old image of Satan or Pan (if you go back to Greek Mythology). The Garden of Eden is one of those allegorical stories (as many are) that are actually rewrites of combinations of myth in other cultures. In one deck I have you also see the Lovers naked behind a tree with a fallen apple on the ground. In Mormon theology, it was believed that Eve ate the apple because she could never gain knowledge and become a god herself if she stayed innocent and ignorant in the Garden of Eden (she had to learn about sex and bare children). It was thought that Adam acquiesced to Eve because it was her decision. Eve had to bear the majority of the burden (pain of child birth and ultimately blame for having them expelled) of the eating of the fruit. This was a nicer way than say the story of Pandora's opening the box and letting out all of the evil into the world. But even in that story Hope remained hiding in a corner. I don't espouse Mormon theology anymore, but, I was thinking that maybe a way to heal old wounds is to incorporate the good things that we learned (if you think hard you'll remember a few) and it will broaden our understanding in everything including The Tarot. I'll tell you one very good thing about everyone posting to this web site--Christian Theology, for better or worse, has helped make analytical thinkers and debaters of us all. Here is to more lively discussion! Junia

The Dreamer	15 Feb 2005
Another question worth considering is whether anyone here believes that evil actually exists. I'm not sure if I do- I could be wrong about that, though. Tarotbear recounted some experiences with a ouija board earlier in the thread which indicated that he seems to think that malevolent spiritual forces can manifest themselves. Some people (including myself) have had experiences with ouija which did not involve any seemingly evil manifestations. People who have had no problem with ouija could easily deride and mock those who avoid it, or who have had problems with it- could call them uneducated, misguided, afraid of what they don't understand, afraid to face the truth, etc.- just as some people who use tarot mock those who don't use it because they fear it is evil. (I am not implying that people's experiences with tarot are equivalent to experiences with ouija- from what I've heard so far, it seems that bad ouija experiences are very common, and that bad tarot experiences are almost nonexistent. [well- my mother's i ching experiences could count as a bad divination experience, i suppose.]) But the parallel remains. Both are "occult" activities which involve the seeking of hidden knowledge. Occasionally I've heard users of tarot say that they thought evil people could use tarot for evil purposes. Given that I don't know why tarot works, I don't know what I think about that. Since I don't have others read for me and don't read for others, (and since I don't consider myself evil) it's not a practical consideration for me. But it's an interesting question. Examining our own ideas of evil might help us to understand why others might view tarot as evil.

Mabuse	15 Feb 2005
"In the united states, nobody "plays cards" using tarot cards. Sure, chess and other games (and other materials which were never games) can also be used as an oracle. But it seems a little disingenuous to me to say that people should try to market tarot as a card game to get others not to be afraid of it- what some people are afraid of is the divinatory uses of it." Dreamer Well, not quite "nobody" I do myself play the French and Austrian Tarock games. French Tarot has already appeared on a classic card game CD-ROM game designed for American (English speaking at least) usage. In David Parlett's more recent books on card games at least 3 different tarot games are included. There are 2 entries in the boardgamegeek website devoted to such games. In fact, in your own state of Indiana, there is a shop with a website selling decks for such purposes (tarock.net). Tarot gaming does have a small cult following in the US already. True, the divination aspects are a different story. While I am in no way an apologist for Christianity ( I am in fact an atheist), if one is opposed to divination there is nothing to be done. Part of one's religious choice is to adopt some rituals while rejecting for oneself others. The fear of the cards, however, is caused by ignorance. I taught one of my relatives the French Tarot game and because she was raised to be a devout Christian, she appeared horrified initially because of the "T-word" on the burgundy colored box, but as soon as she understood the exact nature of this game, she was not at all afraid of these cards. This was at Christmas with her entire family present. None of the devout Christian believers at this Christmas party were frightened. Knowledge conquers fear.

The Dreamer	15 Feb 2005
Well, okay. (I wonder if anyone is actually playing games with, say, the Haindl deck. That would be amusing.) But again, your relative was afraid of it residually because of the divinatory uses. The only knowledge she aquired by playing a card game with it was that the physical cards themselves didn't cause any bad effect. If one is opposed to divination, there is nothing to be done? Well, I used to be opposed to it, and the the thing to be done was try it. That's what I did. If one is opposed to trying it, I suppose there is nothing to be done. But again, guys, what we're talking about here is why people think it's evil. Maybe somebody should just start a thread devoted to making fun of the tarot fearing rubes and how annoying they are and just talk about that some more. As for the fear being strictly because of ignorance- I recall being in a store once and overhearing the ladies behind me speak of their tarot experiences in hushed and frightened tones- they had used tarot before, and given their deck away. My earlier statement that bad tarot experiences seem nonexistent should be amended, given that I just remembered that. There could be people having bad tarot experiences all the time. They just wouldn't be coming to this website.

Mabuse	15 Feb 2005
rather stimulating thread, I must say. There is a German Tarock website where the players are actually using an RWS deck for the play of a King call tarock game. From what I understand, they like the looks of the cards! They even find them more functional then the traditional Piatnik tarock or Cego decks, LOL. The French 78 card Tarock/Tarot is the only French suited one these days having indices. http://www.tarock.de/ babelfish.com will work for those unable to read German I myself would prefer Ancient Italien Tarot or the 1JJ if I wanted to use an Italian suited pack for gaming, but perhaps such choices aren't available there.

The Dreamer	15 Feb 2005
I had no idea. That makes me want to play cards with my decks now. First, the Thoth. It would be magical.

Mabuse	15 Feb 2005
Nearly forgot to address the fear factor, so to speak, I have also known people to say they have had negative (or perhaps spooky is more accurate) experiences with tarot divination. Perhaps they were already fearful before the reading and the reading intensified the fear. It's amazing how children, however, can hear the noises at night after watching a late night horror film.

The Dreamer	15 Feb 2005
"I stayed up all night playing poker with tarot cards. I got a full house, and four people died." -Steven Wright ;) Quote: It's amazing how childen, however, can hear the noises at night after watching a late night horror film. Very true. I was one of those children. Or it could be, as some have mentioned earlier, people hearing truths they don't want to hear. Not my personal experience, though. I want as much truth as I can get.

NightWing	15 Feb 2005
I have no doubt that ignorance begets fear, and fear begets intolerance, and sometimes violence and worse... I also have no doubt about the existence of evil in the world. One has only to recall the wars of the 20th century, the Massacre of the Armenians, Stalin's forced famines, the Holocaust of the Jews and others in Europe, and more recently the genocides in Cambodia, Rwanda, and now Sudan to affirm it. We forget them to our peril. Like any tool, Tarot can be used for good, but also for evil. The evil rests not in the cards, but in the reader, if anywhere. Christians, Moslems, and other people as individuals vary a great deal in their attitude to divination. Some condemn it, many are indifferent, and some engage in it. I cannot find any consensus within any organised religion that condemns divination absolutely. Any critically thinking Christian would agree that, in Christianity's own terms, a good pagan, heathen, or atheist has a better chance of attaining heaven than a bad Christian. The scriptures say as much, and only those belonging to some literalist "christian" cult could believe otherwise. Unfortunately, these literalist cults are now rampant, at least in America. But I'm concerned by some of the comments we share here. Some betray our own "ignorance" (as in lack of knowledge) of Christian (and other religious)teachings, and some reflect our own fears regarding reactions to tarot, and maybe tarot itself, on some level. And a number of writers here are sounding rather intolerant of the religious and spiritual choices of others. If we expect tolerance of our practices in Tarot, or Wicca, or anything else we have chosen as our path, then we must extend tolerance to others on other paths. And "tolerance" is the bare minimum. Beyond that lies "acceptance" of each other and our differing paths thru this life. What we are entitled to resist however, is anyone forcing us to hide, deny, or change our path against our will. But I don't think we accomplish this via negativity and "slamming" the practices of others. If ignorance is the problem, then we can each battle that; by informing ourselves about others who are different, AND informing them about us. Thus endeth the musings of NightWing (for now). :-)

Junia	17 Feb 2005
"What we are entitled to resist however, is anyone forcing us to hide, deny, or change our path against our will. But I don't think we accomplish this via negativity and "slamming" the practices of others." I think that discussion takes many forms and some of the people talking here are discussing their wounds. I don't necessarily find it all slamming. I, too, if anyone read any of posts to this thread, am trying in the midst of a lot of negativity out there to remain open to other peoples religions, spiritualities, etc. I do think that it is realistic to discuss the good and the bad in things and most of those are experiential. Hopefully, I didn't offend anyone. If I did, I am truly sorry. As to the existence of evil, well there is one subject that even the best minds (and I am not one of them) have discussed. I remember Carl Sagan, in "Cosmos", somewhere at the beginning, discussing whether or not serial murderers or murderers in general may have something wrong or right with their brain. The Reptilian Cortex is an older part of the brain that we each have, and I am no scientist here; but, he theorised that it may be that the newer part of the brain which occurred in later evolution may not be as active or developed or pronounced in every person's brain. The R-Cortex (which is billions and billions of years, {sorry Carl, wherever you are, couldn't resist}) carries all of those instinctual killing aspects of human and animal brains. Dualism, I think, is the philosophical field of study considering good and evil. From there, it branches into Theology. There is also the pertinent question here of whether or not good exists. I am afraid that I am not qualified to argue those questions. I only took Intro. to Philosophy 105 and got out of there as quickly as possible because my "butt was on fire." LOL I think if we consider anything evil in Tarot. It is a warning of negativity or flaws in situations and people. As for whether or not any religion, wholesale condemns Tarot Reading, I can definitively tell you that the Leadership of the LDS ("Mormon") Church is against it. No, if ands or buts about it. (Which is not a slam--Just a fact.) That is part of accepted Church Doctrine. Lively bunch of critters aren't we? Junia

The Why Do People Think............ thread was originally posted on 28 Jan 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.