certification or not?!???...
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 10 Feb 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| yaraluna |
10 Feb 2005 |
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blessed be!
i am curious to know how many of you are "certified" tarot readers/masters and how many are not. i ask this because i am finally getting out of the broom closet this year in full and that is something that someone asked me: "are you a certified tarotist?" --wow! i was sooo surprised! but then, i live in north america now where those titles and papers seem to be more important to the querent than his/her own intuition on the reading. i have "studied" tarot the nrthamerican way for the past 7 years. my skills are from intuition and from being a third generation 'gifted' person in my family. we don't concern ourselves with certificates and papers as tarot, oracles, magick, shaman healing etc are things that are historically a woman's innate ability.
know what i mean? soooo, are you certified or not? why are you or are you not??
thanks
yaraluna
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| snowy25 |
10 Feb 2005 |
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I'm not a certified tarot reader or master.
I have learned much by reading books, looking on the internet back in the days I started and from my own experiance.
My decicion not to become a certified tarot reader is based op on not wanting to go all professional and not wanting to do the stuff I learnd all over again.
I don't want to ask people for money and read only for myself and friends.
Maybe some day on the internet, but I haven't decided yet.
I want to read tarot as a hobby and for me it's part of a growing process.
I don't read all the time and want to have my say who I do a reading for or not.
I don't know if it's true but I think of reading in public a reader has to read for every one who asks.
(If this is not the case then I will be happy to hear I'm wrong about this and I will eat my words)
I just don't like it if it would be my profession.
For me it's better this way and I feel I don't need proof on paper with numbers from 1. to 10. indicating how good or bad I am.
If some one doesn't think I'm a good reader they don't waste money on me and aren't obligated anything.
I like it this way.
Lots of luck and happyness.
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| Grizabella |
10 Feb 2005 |
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I'm not certified and never intend to be. I believe reading is a gift and one's skill can develop over years with use. I don't need someone else to legitimatize me. I know I'm a good and ethical reader and my reputation is holding strong with those I read for and word continues to spread to others testifying to that. That should be enough for anyone.
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| Kara |
10 Feb 2005 |
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Pros and cons of certification...some things are taken just too far.
And who certifies the certifiers? The same that punish malpractitioners? God? Krishna? Jehovah? The Powers that Be Inc.?
And when you're 'certified', do you have to give a 14-day-money-back-guarantee? Are the chances for successful suing better? Are you then also certified to buy their way out of their 'Karma'? What's wrong with people nowadays?
If you can't trust your inner voice to tell you who to trust confiding your spiritual/emotional problems in, and you need some obscure board to do that for you, then no amount of readings or certification is going to help much-> people like that might even have problems understanding what it's about... I mean, how many times more, and in how many languages more, does the Spirit have to try to explain that it has nothing to do with our money, or our material value system???
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| tarotbear |
10 Feb 2005 |
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Certification serves no real purpose unless you are one of those people who 'needs' to have something hanging on your walls - in which case Major Tom can give you a "Scalawag in Tarot" certificate, such as the one I have!
I actually started going through the process - a long time ago in a different century. To make a long story short, the ATA (yes - I always mention names) did not have it's act together and I got tired of the changes being made in the process as we went, some of the confusions arising from the fact that the ATA and the 'Certfication Board' were two separate entities, but one person was on both of them and that added confusion to the mix. It also seemed you have to become a Kabbalist to be certified, and that just didn't work for me. At one point things got so confusing .... NEVER MIND!
I remember getting an 'Apprentice Certificate' WITH AN EXPIRATION DATE! Does knowledge expire?
Anywho - IMHO - certification is all in your mind, not in the piece of paper on your wall. Such devices are money-raisers for the organizations that provide them. Like I said - if you want a certificate, Major Tom can send you one for free.....
PS - BTW, kara - 'The Powers That Be' is the name of my business - but I don't do certifications! LOL!!!
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| Apollonia |
10 Feb 2005 |
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Now, I hope I don't get made fun of (or worse) for this, but for me, the jury's still out as to whether I will ever seek certification or not. When I was a beginning Veterinary Technician. I took the first-ever certification exam in our state. A lot of people were saying it was a joke, worthless, just to let the state get money off of us, that everyone had always done okay without tests of their skills, etc. And yet...now, twenty years later, it means something to be a Certified Veterinary Technician, versus someone who isn't. So mightn't certification someday come to mean something? I mean, way back, doctors and dentists and psychologists didn't need to pass a test--they proved themselves by whether their patients lived, got better, and came back for more. People could decide for themselves according to the results they got. But was that better?
Even though I've seen other posts stating vehemently that certification is worthless, I know that there are readers out there who have gone through the process. They exist. I want to know why they thought it was a goal worth pursuing. Do they still think it was worth it?
I would love to hear from someone who is actually certified, but the only readers who ever seem to reply are people who aren't. Is there some kind of reverse discrimination regarding certification? Is there some certification closet Tarot readers go into upon passing the test? I actually think that some folks who don't feel comfortable getting a reading might get some sense of ease from the knowledge that someone is certified.
It just feels like people get a little defensive when this topic comes up, and I don't know why. If you want to read at a shop, you usually have to give the owner a sample reading. What's so different about being certified? I'm not trying to start an argument; I'm just really, really curious. And maybe it's the child in me, but darn it, if someone else has a piece of paper that says they're good, then I want a piece of paper, too!
Blessings,
Amanda
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| tarotbear |
10 Feb 2005 |
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There is a big difference between being certified to treat sick animals (or people for that matter) and being certified to 'read' tarot cards. Who can set the standard for what constitutes a reader? Accuracy? Ability? By whose standards can these be judged?
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| April |
10 Feb 2005 |
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I was also batting around the idea of certification before I stumbled onto this site. I have since decided against it.
If you are going to read professionally, I would imagine that most clients wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a certificate from a board and one you printed up yourself (which I am now going to do ;)). Most people I know have never heard of ATA or any similar organization, and I don't think they care much either.
My other problem with certification is the requirement to follow a preset code of ethics. Don't get me wrong, I think every reader should have one, but let me write my own please.
Eventually (I promise) I will put my money to better use here. But not this month 'cause I'm going to Vegas, baby!
Peace,
April
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| Grizabella |
10 Feb 2005 |
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As a reader myself, if I were looking for a reader, I'd avoid someone with certification because that would say to me that they weren't confident enough of their own intuition to read intuitively. It would say to me that they felt the need to look to someone outside of themselves to validate their gift. It would be a negative to me.
That said, I do understand a beginner thinking it might be better to have a certification and a formal course in tarot. However, I wish it were done more on an apprenticeship basis without money changing hands. I think that would truly keep the purity of intent alive and would also be more ethical than taking big sums of money to issue a piece of paper that says the student has learned things by rote and conformity in order to get the certification.
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| April |
10 Feb 2005 |
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Now that I've thought about it, personal references seem much more valuable. Getting a certificate doesn't ensure an ethical or even a good reader, but someone if recommends me it's golden.
Coatl, I see where your coming from. Certification might be valuable or necessary further down the road, but right now there are just too many kinks in the available programs that need to be worked out.
Peace,
April
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| bladeraven |
10 Feb 2005 |
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Certification serves no real purpose unless you are one of those people who 'needs' to have something hanging on your walls - in which case Major Tom can give you a "Scalawag in Tarot" certificate, such as the one I have!
Anywho - IMHO - certification is all in your mind, not in the piece of paper on your wall. Such devices are money-raisers for the organizations that provide them. Like I said - if you want a certificate, Major Tom can send you one for free.....
LOL..I would love to get a Scalawag certificate...where do I sign up..lol..I think that would be cute..wish I could put it up at work..LOL
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| Junia |
10 Feb 2005 |
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Originally posted by April, "Now that I've thought about it, personal references seem much more valuable. Getting a certificate doesn't ensure an ethical or even a good reader, but someone if recommends me it's golden."
Once upon a time back in the late fifties there was a woman named "Pearl" who read with a plain deck of playing cards. My mother and her sisters would go to see her and she would tell them actual things in their own future (she could see it in the cards). Every one of them happened. She also told my mother that she sensed in her this gift and that if she wanted she could teach her. My mother never learned (sigh). I wish she had. How do you teach people a "gift" for doing anything. Pearl knew because she could see it in Mom. I agree with the above statement and would add, "if yer hot yer hot honey and people will find YOU."
P.S. I was trying to print out my own "certification", but the toilet tissue has jammed my printer. Could somehow please tell me how to get it out? He-Halw
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| Kara |
10 Feb 2005 |
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Maybe we here should start a board! With certification program!! International, over 1000 years combined experience(or more, lol!!!), published authors - and it's a well known site...seriously! And tarotbear at the Powers that Be will also be our certifier :D
There are some ideas I really, really like: like a code of Ethics. That would maybe also finally clear up the 'taking money issue', the questions of is this counselling or not, does it help or not, is it all about fortune-telling or not, is it evil, would God approve, etc. Doctors weren't taken seriously for a long time in history either...
An apprenticeship would be good, I mean that's the best way to learn anything - by doing, with the aid of an experienced guide, better yet, several experienced guides. But what about the privacy of the client? Camcorder? But I wouldn't like that either, as a client...
Ok, I can understand the certification. It's just the implied snobbiness I can't stand, and it goes against everything the cards mean to me and stand for in my eyes. And I like the unstructured, still creative atmosphere, which might disappear once things are 'set in stone' - the freedom of it all...interpretations, options of taking money or not, with nobody stepping on someone else's toes, or 'taking away someone else's business' because they don't believe in charging for their services. Just everyone doing their own thing... it's beauty.
And I'm just afraid all these issues and more, will come up and ruin everything, once the bureaucracy starts to roll..
As someone else posted, sometimes(most times IMO) 'wayfaring Gypsies' are much better, than a: K. Johnson C.T.R.,C.T.I(instructor), CBM(certification board member), specializing in..., trained in..., travelled for two months (actually 14 days) through (the nightclubs) Rome, learning the rites of the ancient (fill in blank) and studying under the tutelage of (the cute waiter's guy friend who was showing off a pick up trick) Signor Tricosti...blablabla. Sure it applies in truth to some, but I know who I'd rather go to anyways.
I like to imagine the Spirit and the connection to others through it as being free, not to be contained or regulated, and if, then for sure not by us. And belonging to us all, as we need it, in our lives.
But I'm sure that in the future, certification will be a big issue...People are opening up more and more: readings in Spas, using the cards (on DreaminginColor website) with 'challenged' children... It doesn't look too far off anymore.
Natureopaths ca. 10 years ago were still laughed away(here in Germany), now they are well respected and growing more and more in popularity. So, the day for us can't be too far off...I think pity. But who knows..
xoxo
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| yaraluna |
10 Feb 2005 |
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..goodess gracious! never thought this question of mine would bring about so much passionate posts!! thank you all for your responses. my post wasn;t intended to create controversy (although that is what the world is made up of ///) or bad feelings etc. well, you get what you want from these answers.
i never thought of ceritfication because i never thought of a "gift" of intuition being certified! ehhehe!
i am not getting certified, i just wanted to know both sides of the plate and seeing what the fuzz was all about, and if i had to do it as a general rule here in North america.
anyway
gracias
yaraluna
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| TemperanceAngel |
10 Feb 2005 |
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Yes I often wonder about certification as one card in a reading can mean so much depending on the time, person and place. Sometimes when I read a card it means something that I have never read in a book ever, nothing even resembling it....
Recently I saw an ad in Melbourne for a Tarot College and it was offering correspondence courses and it also said on the ad something about finding yourself a new career. Now I may have read it wrong but the idea I got was (and I maybe exaggerating to make a point) "do a 6 week Tarot correspondence couse and you will be a certified Tarot reader...."
This thread has reminded me of that, I must ring the College and get some info sent to me :)
Certification is not for me!
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| Kath |
10 Feb 2005 |
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"do a 6 week Tarot correspondence couse and you will be a certified Tarot reader...."
You mean it only takes six weeks till I can earn big $$$ for tarot readings?? :eek: Darn it. Why didn't someone tell me this ages ago. I've been studying tarot for years, and still haven't made a cent!
Hmmm... maybe I should buy a Tarot Certificate from Ebay (Issued by the University of Australia!). ;)
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| yusia |
10 Feb 2005 |
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Definitely certification does not add anything neither to knowledge, nor to intuition of a reader. But if you cherish an idea to teach a class or to give lectures, then, probably, the subject is not that stupid as it seems to be. People respect certificates, after all. :)
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| Rosanne |
10 Feb 2005 |
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Hi, I have an A+ Horticulture Diploma. I can't garden for peanuts, but I sure know how to sit exams. I would do a certificate in Tarot for the extra insights not for the Certificate. No one has ever asked for my credentials or my certification. I am sure people have asked if I am certifiable tho (That was a Joke should anyone feel the need to call a moderator!!) Regards Rosanne
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| jumptothemoonyea |
10 Feb 2005 |
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here is what I think about this
the question behind certificate or no certificate is : can Tarot be taught to average normal person as a science, or it only belongs to the gifted, special kind of people, inherited the 'gift'
if it is possible to teach it and train the person under a system, then certificate is a legitimate acknowledgment of the level achieved
if tarot cannot be taught ( I mean on very good level), then certificate is a piece of paper
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| EricTheHermit |
10 Feb 2005 |
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While I can understand how certification can provide a professional reader with credentials - which, as Yusia pointed out, people do respect - it takes more than just reading about card meanings in a book and regurgitating that information on a written test. Tarot *is* a gift, and is also about intuition, connection, and interpretation, not black-and-white facts and figures. A tarot reader, certified or not, is not like a certified public accountant. :)
- Eric
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| Kara |
10 Feb 2005 |
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I don't mean to be rude in any which way - but the accreditation site for Europe is only in english, and affiliated to the American Association.... For those interested, here's a link to the first german Tarot Association - which set up last year or end of 2003, I'm not sure. They don't have accreditations, but they are planning a serious Tarot school.
I've heard and read about Tarot classes, but when I talked to others about it, it seems the general feeling is that it is a 'money ploy', and made for people with time and money... http://www.tarotverband.de/ if you click on the 'wer ist wer?' (who is who), you'll see a page with a short bio on each of the founders (Hajo Banzhaf is one), with links off to their personal sites. Unfortunately it's all in German though, some are very interesting. Some have sample spreads and such, if you do click through and like something, just mail me, I'll translate.
It would be interesting for someone who is accredited to post too.
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| Rusty Neon |
10 Feb 2005 |
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Certification serves no real purpose unless you are one of those people who 'needs' to have something hanging on your walls - in which case Major Tom can give you a "Scalawag in Tarot" certificate, such as the one I have!
Also in a humourous vein, let's not forget the Ph.D.T. offered by the Divine Fifi of Villa Revak fame.
http://www.villarevak.org/phdt/intro.html
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| Rusty Neon |
10 Feb 2005 |
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I don't mean to be rude in any which way - but the accreditation site for Europe is only in english, and affiliated to the American Association....
Similar issue with the Canadian Tarot Network ... Most national organizations in Canada (even those not government-run) offer websites and services in both official languages of Canada, yet the Canadian Tarot Network website is in English only, no French.
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| tarotbear |
11 Feb 2005 |
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here is what I think about this
the question behind certificate or no certificate is : can Tarot be taught to average normal person as a science, or it only belongs to the gifted, special kind of people, inherited the 'gift'
if it is possible to teach it and train the person under a system, then certificate is a legitimate acknowledgment of the level achieved
if tarot cannot be taught ( I mean on very good level), then certificate is a piece of paper
So, you mean I should have a page in the back of my book that you can cut out, and sign and hang, certifying that you read my book and understand my system? I like it - but my publisher probably would not go for it! LOL!!
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| Neville Surrell |
11 Feb 2005 |
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Why do we need to be certified? i am not sure I would find it useful for someone to give me a certificate to say I can do something I am already aware(from feedback) I am relatively proficient in.
Neville.
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| Kara |
11 Feb 2005 |
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My first thought on seeing the site was, that it was affiliated with a major american publishing house for Tarot cards, affiliated with an american organization, and only in one language - so who here (assuming they find it) should feel it is relevant or even care? But I don't want this to come across as being arrogant, it's hard sometimes on the net, when people can't see how you say something..
Similar issue with the Canadian Tarot Network ... Most national organizations in Canada (even those not government-run) offer websites and services in both official languages of Canada, yet the Canadian Tarot Network website is in English only, no French.
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| caridwen |
11 Feb 2005 |
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This is really strange because I found a certificate training thing only yesterday on the web and didn't know they existed before. Never heard of it.
I then followed the links on this thread to TABI and looked at their criteria which actually seems quite good.
I was scammed in my first ever reading and got my fingers burnt. I now mistrust Tarot Readers I see at fairs etc because of that experience - it would be useful or reassuring to know they had at least done a single reading before I handed over my hard earned cash or wasted my precious time listening to a load of drivel.
However, I suppose it's the same with counsellors - anyone can set up their own office and become a counsellor. But these people are dealing with vulnerable clients who are seeking them out because there is a problem or deep issue in their life that needs to be resolved. Sometimes they just need someone to talk to. Much has been made of this in the press in recent years and there has been a call to regulate them properly.
I suppose word of mouth is as good a regulator as anything but where Tarot differs is intuition. But although Tarot is intuitive and it depends on skill of both reading the cards and intuiting their meaning there is also a practical result: it has to have a meaning to the querent and make sense. Also the reading should be done 'ethically'.
With TABI there is some kind of ethical code:
All readings remain confidential between the querent and the reader and, if appropriate, the readers mentor.
All readings will aim to empower the client.
All querents are equal and will be treated with respect.
As a reader I will be open minded, honest and remain non-judgmental.
I will suggest the querent contact a qualified professional if appropriate e.g. health or legal professional.
Any payment will be discussed prior to the reading, will be reasonable and within the clients means.
If at any time I feel unable to continue the reading I will withdraw tactfully
I will use Tarot responsibly e.g. I will not offer to remove or place curses
I will not knowingly read for minors without permission from a guardian/parent
I will not undertake reading for anyone other than the querent, i.e. third parties.
http://www.tabi.org.uk/page.php?page=ethics
I suppose as a member and reader associated with that organisation you are meant to follow it. It provides at least a basis for an ethical reading and money's worth for the querent.
For someone who knows little of Tarot and wants a reading, to know that the reader is part of a recognised organisation may be reasuring. It may even provide a place to take complaints if you felt you were scammed or mislead.
If there were two booths at a fair and one of the Tarot readers was a member of an organisation and the other wasn't - it may provide reasurance. It they had a certificate that at least showed they had done 25 readings under the supervison of a mentor, it may reasure further. Yes, Tarot is deeply intuitive etc but at the end of the day you are asking people to part with hard earned cash.
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| Grizabella |
11 Feb 2005 |
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The problem is, though, that how is the average person to know whether the one holding the certificate has just paid a fee to get it, printed their own bogus one, or has actually passed some kind of "test" to gain their certificate?
A person who goes to some sort of fair or festival and on a whim decides to try having his/her cards read probably isn't so concerned with whether the reader is certified. A lot of those people just think it's a fortune telling experience and don't understand what tarot really is.
The person who does understand what tarot really is and is accustomed to having readings would, in my opinion, be more sensitive to whether a reader was bogus or not just by how they presented themselves.
A person who knows what tarot is, although hasn't any or hasn't had a lot of readings but wants to start consulting someone regularly would probably ask around and find someone by word of mouth who seemed reliable. At least, the sensible person would. I don't think certification validates a reader. Reputation and ethics do.
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| caridwen |
11 Feb 2005 |
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The problem is, though, that how is the average person to know whether the one holding the certificate has just paid a fee to get it, printed their own bogus one, or has actually passed some kind of "test" to gain their certificate?
A person who goes to some sort of fair or festival and on a whim decides to try having his/her cards read probably isn't so concerned with whether the reader is certified. A lot of those people just think it's a fortune telling experience and don't understand what tarot really is.
The person who does understand what tarot really is and is accustomed to having readings would, in my opinion, be more sensitive to whether a reader was bogus or not just by how they presented themselves.
A person who knows what tarot is, although hasn't any or hasn't had a lot of readings but wants to start consulting someone regularly would probably ask around and find someone by word of mouth who seemed reliable. At least, the sensible person would. I don't think certification validates a reader. Reputation and ethics do.
Very valid points - but how do you know any person with certification hasn't printed it off the internet or bought it?
Mostly because they belong to an organisation that has already vetted them.
I'm not saying that there SHOULD be a certificate, I'm looking at this from both sides and trying to find a medium. Excuse the terrible pun.
Many who don't trust Tarot readers know of someone who's been scammed. I was scammed and that's why I also hold mistrust. It's a shame the con artists can't be weeded out and there isn't some kind of complaints system to get rid off them or at least make them think twice before they tell people they're going to die in three days unless you pay them to lift a curse.
You can't tell how good a reader is by how well they present themselves. It reminds me off a survery done once where a man dressed in a suit and asked for money because his wallet had been stolen and he couldn't get home. Then they compared the amount he got to the same man who wore scruffy clothes who got much less. Appearances can be deceptive.
I've been reading Tarot for a while and only have one deck. If you wanted a reading would you go for someone with only one deck or someone with a choice? Maybe the one with a choice just picked them off ebay five minutes ago - how would you know?
I'm sure many here read at fairs, it's a good way of getting money. Not everyone who goes to a fair thinks Tarot is all about fortune telling and crossing palms with silver. Some are curious, some are taking their first steps into Tarot, some are readers themselves etc If you get scammed the first time you get your cards read you're going to think twice before getting it done again and it brings honest readers into disrepute.
Also, I wonder if you as a reader and the friend who recommended the Tarot reader to you, would have different ideas of how 'good' they were? They could just trill off a load of memorised book meanings or read body language or just ask enough questions to come up with some kind of meaning.
I don't know anyone, bar this place, who reads Tarot and I don't know anyone who regularly sees a Tarot reader to get a recommendation so how am I supposed to find out who is good in my area or not? One of the ways of doing it would be to get in contact with an organisation like TABI and ask them to recommend one. At least in that way, if I didn't think they were any good I could take my concerns to an organisation.
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| HANDMAIDEN MI |
11 Feb 2005 |
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HI ya!,
I beleive the rise of schools/colleges/university type teaching of Tarot is part of the mass concsiousness towards legitimizing Tarot as a viable Tool for the public, like Astrology.. which no doubt has all kinds of "certificiation" type degrees of knowledge. If the public is taught that Tarot is a legitimate form of asking questions... such as Astrology.. then they will comfortably PURCHASE this knowledge with confidence. Providing broad education combined with ethics, and "practice", a certificate would be valuable in as much as the school/college is respected in the community of education. There was a time when Astrology wasn't located in some section of the newspaper.. the public had to accept it first. If I had a degree from the Juliard School of Music... ho ho.. that is SOMETHING! Takes years for the schools to become FAmous for their students so.... As time grows up, we WILL see more and more Tarot taking place, and specific and original Practicianers of specific SYSTEMS.
I for one DISagree with the idea of giving away money to a "GOBBLYGOOK". 35.00 is the price for a Reader round my parts in Michigan. I just recently had a PRO reading done... she has no books near her "They are just opinions" and she was theatrical a bit too much and she gave no knowledge whatsoever about the cards she was reading.. just her "Opinion" about what they were magically telling her about ME. I felt the stage, and the actor and an egoism that didn't help me one single bit. The idea of protecting the unsuspecting who don't know anything about Tarot or a reader... getting a reading that just makes 'em FEEL GOOD, NEXT, I think is a serious question for our futures... out of the "For entertainment purposes only", "Meet the Gypsy... be dazzled!" this idea stinks doesn't it? I think of that stripper song, "Let me entertain you"... that's all I'm responsible for, isn't it? Certificates probably add to the IDEA of what a "Professional" might wish to be about... knowledge is power... power is choice? (I have none yet myself but I like the idea of becoming increased in the POWER of knowledge) Gifted people are just the cream always coming to the top... which will always remain so.
Ms. Ae
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| April |
11 Feb 2005 |
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I don't know anyone, bar this place, who reads Tarot and I don't know anyone who regularly sees a Tarot reader to get a recommendation so how am I supposed to find out who is good in my area or not? One of the ways of doing it would be to get in contact with an organisation like TABI and ask them to recommend one. At least in that way, if I didn't think they were any good I could take my concerns to an organisation.
This is the best argument for certification I've heard so far, and surprised I haven't heard it before. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna quit arguing! :D
How much authority would the issuing body have over the individual reader if you did complain? I can't imagine they'd be able to do much except revoke certification and that only means something if certification is mandatory. The Better Business Bureau seems a better route (here in the US anyway).
That reminds me, there is/was a website where you could report a scam psychic or Tarot reader for other people to read. Does anybody know what that is?
I think eventually governments have to and will step in and pick up the slack (as sickening as that might sound). When these schools and orginizations become accredited, that's when I'll give a hoot about their certificates. TABI, the ATA, and everyone else just don't have any power until that happens.
Peace,
April
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| tmgrl2 |
11 Feb 2005 |
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As long as we are listing sites....
I agree that with so much available for "self study" and with participation in a wonderful site like this....plus lots of practice reading...
One should be on the way if the work and preparations and practice are done....no certification needed.
I love what the Association For Tarot Studies says re its purpose...in the Constitution: I am a member and proud to be so...even though I'll probably never make it to Australia!
http://association.tarotstudies.org/membership/membership.html
So this link and AT are on my flyers....since my philosophies are reflected here.
People will return and recommend you if you have given them sound guidance and a dose of hope.
Only once did someone ask me about how long I been using Tarot. I answer honestly....If they are in my home office, there is a mini-library of Tarot literature, since I love learning ABOUT Tarot...and, as a result, have more information to share with my sitters than they want or need to know.
I also give my sitter a bit of background about Tarot, the Trumps, the suits and meanings and talk some about the spread and the process....then I interact all the way through the reading.
The event should speak for itself.
People have no hesitation telling me about "negative" experiences they or friends have had with Tarot readings....so I am thrilled to be able to foster my own style and intent for reading.
terri
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| jumptothemoonyea |
11 Feb 2005 |
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So, you mean I should have a page in the back of my book that you can cut out, and sign and hang, certifying that you read my book and understand my system? I like it - but my publisher probably would not go for it! LOL!!
Tarotbear, thanks for your comments. Validity of the certificate or the institution issued it is another question. It can be applied to any profession. Not only to tarot. In my previous post, I only considered a very serious, through, long term spiritual training. And if it possible or not. Even the "cream" need to be taught to speak a language. Could simple milk be converted to "cream" ? is a thousand years quest called alchemy, is it? There is such thing as good schools and not so good. The certificate is a trademark of the school. I did not read your book, but reading your posts, I have a feeling, your school would be good :)
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| augursWell |
19 Feb 2005 |
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The certificate is a trademark of the school. I think this gets to the whole issue of certification. If people know the "School" then they will trust the certificate, someone mentioned the Julliard for music. If local government got into the mix here and started saying that Tarot readers can only have a license to read Tarot if they have a certification from A or B or C then I think certification would mean something as far as the public was concerned.
The other question comes up, what about "Schools"? You would have the Marseilles system of reading, the Golden Dawn, the Chicken Kabala, the Aunties Tea cup system, etc... In the Medical profession you have MD's and DO's and Podiatrists and Dentists, etc. I like the idea of different schools (visions of Harry Potter here :) ) of Tarot but any "credential" should take that into account. I think a certification system for Tarot Readers would require some kind of impartiallity when it comes to the philosophical system behind a particular Reader's way of reading. If certification had the bare minimum necessary to insure that a Querent would not get bilked then it might be useful for the public and to advance Tarot Reading in general away from the realm of con artists and into the world of general acceptance.
But of course, like the Julliard example above, if a musician gets up on the stage and can't play for beans then there "certificate" is obviously a fake.
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| Gwynne |
27 Mar 2005 |
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I think this gets to the whole issue of certification. If people know the "School" then they will trust the certificate, someone mentioned the Julliard for music. If local government got into the mix here and started saying that Tarot readers can only have a license to read Tarot if they have a certification from A or B or C then I think certification would mean something as far as the public was concerned.
The other question comes up, what about "Schools"? You would have the Marseilles system of reading, the Golden Dawn, the Chicken Kabala, the Aunties Tea cup system, etc... In the Medical profession you have MD's and DO's and Podiatrists and Dentists, etc. I like the idea of different schools (visions of Harry Potter here :) ) of Tarot but any "credential" should take that into account. I think a certification system for Tarot Readers would require some kind of impartiallity when it comes to the philosophical system behind a particular Reader's way of reading. If certification had the bare minimum necessary to insure that a Querent would not get bilked then it might be useful for the public and to advance Tarot Reading in general away from the realm of con artists and into the world of general acceptance.
But of course, like the Julliard example above, if a musician gets up on the stage and can't play for beans then there "certificate" is obviously a fake.
Sorry for bringing up an old topic, but this one has been on my mind the past couple of days.
I'd considered getting certification, but then looked at the requirements, and realized that after 14 years of reading, and 3 of them doing paid readings for the public, I wouldn't be able to pass the requirements!
I don't have a set, specific meaning for each and every card. Sometimes one card will mean drastically different things for each person. Granted some cards are always bad (ten of Swords) and some cards have a certain general meaning (Death=change) but for the most part it really depends on what my gut is telling me at the time of the reading. I am a very intuitive reader.
I also involve my clients in the process, asking for their input, asking if they see anything specific in the cards. It's worked for me (recently got the book Heart of Tarot and was delighted to find that others work that way too!!) And I have no shortage of clients. In fact I've recently been offered a position at a metaphysical store, I don't have to pay any rent or booth fee, I will get to keep all of the money I make on readings and I just have to help keep the store neat and orderly and help customers when I'm not doing readings. It's a win-win situation for myself and the store... It doesn't cost me anything, steady stream of new clients (the store is in our local mall!!), and the store doesn't have to pay me. Anyway... that's off topic...
It was that offer that got me thinking about certification. I thought that perhaps having a pretty certificate hanging on the wall next to my reading space would help reassure some clients.... But many of the objections brought up here are ones I've had myself. I could print a certificate "Certified Professional Tarot Advisor" from the "Peaceful Horizons School of Metaphysics and Spirituality" and no one would know that I made up the title and the "School" Peaceful Horizons, is actually the name of a community center I hope to someday start.....
Not to mention the COST of being a Certified Tarot Consultant (the level of certification I feel qualified for... though I probably wouldn't pass the exam because I have no "specific" method of reading...) It would be $200 just for the Tarot Certification boards fees!!!! Not to mention seeking out someone to do the exam for me. I've looked up just basic classes that offer Apprentice certification, and those run in the $300 range, and that's BEFORE paying the $50 fee to the certification board!!!!
It just seems like a money-making scheme to me. I figured that to "qualify" for CTC level certification I'd have to take a minimum of four classes, pay out over $1000 for those classes and then another $200 for certification. It's just not worth it when those certificates aren't accredited by anyone. Who's to say that I can or can't read except for the clients who I read for. And I must be doing something right because they keep coming back!!!
Honestly, if I were seeking out a reader I think I'd walk away from someone who is "certified." It just seems elitist to me. "I'm better than you are because I'm certified...." Well... I've spent 14 years studying Tarot, and while I can use a "keyword" system, and I know of "elemental dignities" I don't use them. I have my own method for reading, developed over those 14 years of study, and refined with 3 years of reading for hundreds of clients. I don't need a certificate to prove that, just give me 15 minutes, sit down and let me read for you. If you like the reading pay me, if not, walk away. That's my policy and it's served me well. And generally they ask for more time and pay me more money that way as well. Or cookies.... :lol: I accept barter as well....
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| augursWell |
31 Mar 2005 |
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The more I 've thought about this the more I think that all one needs is a simple business license of some kind. Just so that if a querent/customer has a problem with a particular Tarot Reader then they have some sort of legal recourse to get their money refunded. That way a querent could see a simple business license on the wall and know that it isn't a fly by night con artist they are dealing with.
I like Gwynne's policy, if you're satisfied with the reading then pay, otherwise you can walk away. :)
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| calligirl |
31 Mar 2005 |
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This thread is a very similar discussion that is going on with my other passion - calligraphy. Some people pick up a how-to book and a felt marker and feel that's all they need to get started in business. One class and they're at the craft fairs with a self made piece of paper saying they're 'certified' because they finished the class.
In fact there is a cartoon about that very thing, a man facing another man sitting at a desk and behind him is a wall covered in diplomas. The caption says something about 'no, I just do a lot of calligraphy', i.e. he made his own diplomas.
I like to think that in this unjust world, if you're good enough for long enough, the public will find you, whether you have 'papers' or not.
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| Earthly Virgo |
01 Apr 2005 |
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I am so glad to see this thread. The whole certificate thing came up for me this morning when Is tumbled onto the certifying web site...
Honestly....I felt my blood pressure rising.....what a loads of codswallop.
Who can tell if I am doing a good job or not?...As we all know...one day we can read a card as one thing and then the next day you will be doing a reading and khazzam! you just know it means something different for that reading.
Calmer now... I can see that some people might need that but I would never consider it nor recommend it.
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| Ceit |
01 Apr 2005 |
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What does certification mean? It means that I can open a book, read, recite, and react in a prescribed manner. It doesn’t mean that I have a connection with the cards and what ever deity/supernatural element.
I have been reading for a little over a year, but I could take a test and pass but – something is missing. The soul of the Tarot the spirituality of it. When I read I look at the cards, I know what is expected because I have read the books but there might be something in the card that needs attention like a color, shape, the image or hundreds of other things. It could be the sorrow on the person on the cards face, or the way the wind is blowing the hair on another.
You can’t certify spirituality or understanding.
You can certify I suppose that you know the basics that you know that the Queen of Cups means something. But, if you look at different decks and different books on the subject not everyone agrees.
My feeling about certification in general is negative. Certification to me means that someone out there is making money on people’s hopes and dreams. Most Certification programs latch on to people’s hopes of making more money to better their situation.
I have done a reading on Certification and it’s as follows: (I used the DruidCraft Tarot) and asked the Tarot what “it” feels about certification
The High Priest (the Hierophant in other decks) –There is a rich tradition with Tarot connected to spirituality. However you really need to learn and seek out guidance from those who have gone before. You need to learn the basics and have a basic connection to spirituality.
Cernunnos – (the Devil in other decks) I think this addresses the idea that there is a chance for those to take advantage of the Tarot and abuse it. However, what strikes me is this. The mean of this card from the nifty book that comes with the book – It says “The Call to Awaken to Responsibility.” I will take this as the readers must take responsibility to make sure that they don’t abuse Tarot and to learn while still keep the connection to their spirituality.
Three of Pentacles – How appropriate, the Book that comes with the cards say “ You may will find yourself receiving financial reward or praise and appreciation for your efforts, which almost certainly follow a long period of apprenticeship, training and practice. Work may still need to be done, or improvements made, or you might even have to pass a test or prove your skill in some other way, but support and encouragement is close at hand” – That learning the tarot is a long process which in the end will bring you the ability to do well with it. – But even taking a test doesn’t mean that you can not keep up with practice and knowledge it’s a lifetime process, which a simple certificate might not be enough.
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| jmd |
03 Apr 2005 |
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One of the problems with certification that has not yet been mentioned is that there is an attached assumption that those without the same have not achieved competence.
Those that argue for certification for themselves and use those certificates in any public manner whatsoever are also implying that others who do not have such somehow 'ought' to.
Apart from a large number of other threads to which I have also contributed on the subject, the following is quite useful to read through:[indent]Ethics and Certification[/indent]
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| Fulgour |
03 Apr 2005 |
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I wonder how many people have actually gotten certified
by the few offices that handle the books and accounting.
Two hundred maybe? And how many choose to display it?
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| psychic sue |
03 Apr 2005 |
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Certification? You can keep it !
The only way to tell a good tarot reader is to go and have your cards read. If you are a good reader, you will get the best advertisement possible - word of mouth.
How they heck do they certify? Do all the readers sit in an examintation room with a pack of cards and the same querant go to each reader? (ha ha).
You only have to look on "your readings" to see the wide range of possible readings for one spread - and none are "wrong" - the reading is just looked at from different perspective by different people. It's like trying to certify a clairvoyant! No way you can do it, in my opinion.
I think it's probably just a way to make money (I expect they charge for a certificate).
Even if it were possible - doesn't make you a good reader.
When I was training, I could have wiped the floor with half the qualified solicitors in my office. They'd gone straight from school to Uni and had all the "knowledge" of law. But I had life experience, and I had trained on the job. Much more valuable.
My son is training to be a hairdresser (quick brag, he is up for assistant of the year at Toni & Guy) and when he started he asked "should I go to college full time or work and go one day a week?".
I advised him to go the one day a week. You can learn from books and pass exams, but NOTHING is of more value than pratical experience. That goes for any thing in life.
Sue x
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| Phoenix Rising |
03 Apr 2005 |
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My words exactly there Sue!!
I'm surrounded by qualified people with degrees, but it doesn't mean they got any common sense! They got good memories and are good at re-writing someone else's theories. But in saying that, some are very intelligent too, I'm just generally speaking...But for tarot, I don't think a certificate makes them a good one.
But if people are looking for pieces of paper...Well it's very easy to make up your own certificate, on your home computor these days!!:laugh:
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| Aerin |
04 Apr 2005 |
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I've just completed my apprenticeship with TABI, not for business reasons (no intention at the moment to read for profit) but because I wanted to get some worthwhile feedback and support to hone my skills. I wouldn't have had the courage to even embark on this if it hadn't been for my learning from Aeclectic.
I am a member. I joined their Free Readers service, and have completed 25 readings with a mentor OK'ing and feeding back on my readings. I had to do a sample reading to join, and also outline my experience: they use the Joan Bunning course as a basis for their initial training, I'd already done this with the Barnes and Noble free course. You do need to be a member of TABI, and carry out a certain number of readings, but there are no extra course fees or hidden payments beyond that.
I've had loads of very good feedback, been able to see other readers readings, and got to do readings for members of the general public to defined ethical standards. I didn't have to use pre-defined 'rote' card meanings and have certainly made use of both knowledge and intuition in the work I've done there so far. I've felt challenged and supported throughout: my motivation was to learn more, and the discipline of having to do and post a certain number of readings for members of the public has definitely sharpened my skills. Previously I'd mostly read for myself plus a few readings on Aeclectic. (You have to have every reading OK'd by your mentor before it is allowed to go out, and that leads to some thought provoking discussions.) My learning has been entirely practically based: doing readings and getting feedback, not writing essays or answering multiple choice questions or whatever.
I did search around for other courses before choosing to join TABI, but most seemed rather expensive and not in tune with my values. Also, I do live in the UK so a UK based organisation seemed to fit!
Aerin
ps yes I will get a certificate, but the only person to see it is likely to be husband! Don't think it would go down too well with my teaching colleagues.
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| jmd |
04 Apr 2005 |
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There is no question, in my mind, that the process of 'mentoring' or any other learning structure may be quite useful for any person. This is not, of course, the concerns raised in this thread.
After all, numerous Tarot courses around the world exist, and many on these boards also run such, which, when focussed on readings, will include giving feedback to the suggested interpretation of the spread, the legal locally determined constraints, and the interaction that occurs between readee (that some call 'querent' or 'client') and reader, and the important responsibility that comes with what is voiced and how it may impact on another's life (the ethical dimension of the reading).
These are of course important.
The problem, further (at least for me) is not whether a person gets a piece of paper at the completion of a course of participation mentioning to them that they have participated.
The problem lies in the presumption that readers in any way ought to be certified in order to publicly read. Any such indication, explicit or implicit, is, in my personal view, undermining other readers and stepping over proper boundaries of respect, of actually understanding that the reading process is one that occurs at each stage 'in the moment', and imposing certification on fellow readers who do not seek for such when a reader advertises that they are themselves 'certified'.
Further, it also gives the impression that the reading process may be certifiable. The only thing that a certificate can show is that a person has participated in a course, however this may be characterised.
Neither the course, nor the certificate, can in any manner guarantee the worthiness of the reading about to take place.
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| muteswan |
05 Apr 2005 |
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I think a registry with a small fee would be good enough. Enough to show some paper that says you're up to snuff, but no tests and quizzes.
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| jmd |
05 Apr 2005 |
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But why have a registry, for which someone would have to be paid?
How many readers, even those who supplement their income with readings, would want this? If not all, they why would those that desire such impose the same on everyone?
If part of the concern is charlatanism, a registry, or a certification or endorsement programme, does not prevent such.
Charlatans are astute enough to be able to 'pass' any test, any procedure, or even, if such became necessary, be willing to place their 'name' (whether genuine or not is another matter) on any established register.
These suggestions do not, in my personal view, support either Tarot, nor those who wish to work with it, but rather constrain its uses or direction in particular ways.
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| cybercat |
11 Apr 2005 |
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I am going to make a comment here about certification. It is going to happen and become standard. That fact is it has already started and it will keep going and get stronger. Why? Because there are people out there that have had readings by liars and cheats that only want to hurt thier clients.
There are good readers and they will be the ones and are the ones that will change things professionally. Many of the certifications require a code of ethics. It can be of your design but it must be appoved for certain content. I came from the massage arena where we are now nationally certified. I see this happening for Tarot readers also on the professional level.
My massage association police itself and checks on massage clinics and offices to make sure it is not a sexual business under the code of massge. The same can be done with tarot readers. It would not be that hard. Just like what they do to bars send someone in to sample the goods. In this case get a reading if the reader tries to play games then they would be found out and action taken.
Certification will happen for the public wants Proof that you know what you are doing. It is how we are taught. You go to school to be educated in your field. You learn responsible behavior for your field and you learn warning signs about clients. Like it or not it is progress.
Cat
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| Alta |
11 Apr 2005 |
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I do see your point, but honestly I simply cannot see some enormous groundswell of public opinion demanding that tarot readers be certified. Readings tend to be personal, private affairs. People go to whom they trust.
Massage is a profession, with offices, receptionists (maybe), equipment and some medical basis. Not much emotion is involved. The medical aspect does imply a degree of certification.
I could be wrong, but the day I see letters to the editor demanding that tarotists have certificates and a governing body would be some amazing day indeed.
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| jmd |
11 Apr 2005 |
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Cybercat, the only people who really want to see certification of readers as readers are those who are certified or wish to be certified themselves. These people are doing a great disservice to Tarot and to Tarot readers.
For those who understand Tarot and its various ways in which it can be read, for those who read in various ways, for those for whom divination is a graceful gift washing over one in the act of reading, for those, there is also an understanding that no 'certification' can ever guarantee that a reading is any better than from someone without such certification.
The day that some kind of certification becomes either required or standard will be the day when those who have pushed for this have imposed their particular manner and ways of operating onto others. It will be not only a sad day indeed, but the greatest con-job onto the public yet, based on lies that certification or a stated codification of 'ethics' can give 'proof' (your word) that the reader will be able to in-the-moment be able to accurately read.
A sad potential situation indeed, and one promulgated by a very vocal minority (though fortunately, not here on Aeclectic).
The views you have expressed ('There are good readers and they will be the ones and are the ones that will change things professionally') makes for a very sorry situation indeed if it was true in the USA.
I trust that the ATA works against such development in the USA, as I also trust other organisations work against similar potential developments elsewhere, for the health of Tarot and its users.
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| Fulgour |
11 Apr 2005 |
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I trust that the ATA works against such development in the USA, as I also trust other organisations work against similar potential developments elsewhere, for the health of Tarot and its users. So far as I'm aware, the ATA has no stand either
for good certification or against bad certification.
The ATA basically has nothing to do with it at all.
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| Gwynne |
11 Apr 2005 |
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Came head to head with certification just this week. I now read two days a week in a pagan shop. They have a Rune reader one day a week, and another Tarot reader one day a week, and then a massage therapist one day a week.
The other Tarot reader is certified. I'm not. She reads "by the book." I don't mean that she has the book right there, but when she's doing a reading it comes off as right from a book. There is no depth, and she doesn't form a real story with the cards. The Devil means the same thing in every reading he comes up in, same with the Two of Cups, the Three of Wands, etc... They all mean the same. I watched her read the other day and it was just... robotic. Boring. And there were no "WOW" moments....
When I stop having "WOW" moments I'm quiting reading.... Those are the moments when I get into the zone, where the words just flow, the cards all seem to blend together and I tell a person things about themself that I could not possibly know on my own. When I look at a spread and then look at a client and say "Why are you so sad..." or "So, tell me about this guy you're seeing, your gut says run, why aren't you listening...." and other things like that, stuff that just comes out of nowhere.... Or.... like last night when I was doing a reading with my Quest deck and I was using a Celtic Cross spread... fairly straightforward reading, the woman had a question about her lovelife and if it was ever going anywhere... One of the cards was the Five of Stone (Pentacles) I'm sitting there looking at the card and suddenly I see this wierd shape.... I looked at it, trying to figure out what it was... "What's that..." I muttered to myself, and she just looked at me like I was nuts... I picked up the card and then suddenly blurted "BUGS!!!!" and I looked at her and said "Your mom is such a nag!!!! She just keeps bugging you and won't let you live your life!!! You don't want a relationship, your mom wants grandkids!!!" She was stunned!!!! "How do you know that???" she said to me... I was right!!!! She wasn't looking for a relationship, but she felt she had to in order to please her mother!!!! We ended up finishing the reading in an entirely different direction and she gave me a nice tip too :D The bugs on that card? Beatles, and I'd never really noticed them before. And guess what? I don't have the faintest clue what beatles symbolize, but I'm pretty sure it's not a nagging mother!
It's moments like those that no certificate can cover, no book meaning can portray. It's listening to that little voice in your head that tells you something about the person sitting across from you that you couldn't ever know in your wildest dreams. It's those moments where you have to hand the tissues to the client because you just hit a spot so close to their heart that they never let anyone in.... You can't get there with book meanings, you can only get there with your own heart, and no certificate can tell me if a person can or can't do that.
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| cybercat |
11 Apr 2005 |
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Massage for most here in the US is a one on one thing. No office or all those trappings. The ones that do go that way are watched because of the visabilty of them.
As far as certification goes it will be the public that cries for it. Store owners will ended up making it a point. It is already happening here in the US. I know of a few stores that if you are not certified they will not let you work in their store as a reader.
Not every reader is going to read story wise. That takes time and imagination. I know I do not my reading is intuitive but I do know the meanings of the cards. Yes, I agree to read just keywords is flat and reeks of inexperiance but at least she is doing the cards right. Not making up lies to hurt the clients or telling them they are cursed ect. ect.
As I said in the massage ring we were not certified that long ago. Now we are and you have to go to school and take tests ect. Doing that does not make you a good therapist but at least you know the basics. One thing I do know even if you do go all threw school and certification you may not stay. Many leave a year after for it was not for them.
Anyway, it will happen and it will not matter if you are for it or not. The more popular tarot reading gets. The more the public wants Proof of your training. It is just a plain fact.
Please remeber one thing I am talking about those that either work for a business as a reader or run their own business as a reader. For those that do it for friends and such it will never be a issue.
Cat
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| tarotbear |
11 Apr 2005 |
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It still will come down to "WHO" exactly will be doing the 'certification.' and who is going to say who can or cannot.
The State licences massage therapists (around here, anyway) because you have to take classes, have dilpomas, etc. The State wants to make sure you are legitimate and not running a brothel or prostitution ring ~ that makes sense.
The state denies that tarot even exists! It has no scientific proof, cannot be tested ~ so how can they regulate the readers? They can regulate the readings being done, but why should you accept the 'certification' of one reader because they got their certification from XYZ Board of so-and-so, and nor someone else? Hey! Major Tom has a wicked 'Scalawag in Tarot' certificate he can sell you for $25. I'm a published author with a well-selling tarot book. My knowledge is right there in print for you to see ~ do I have to pass 'certification' to make you believe I know what I am doing?
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| muteswan |
12 Apr 2005 |
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The state denies that tarot even exists! It has no scientific proof, cannot be tested ~ so how can they regulate the readers? They can regulate the readings being done, but why should you accept the 'certification' of one reader because they got their certification from XYZ Board of so-and-so, and nor someone else? Hey! Major Tom has a wicked 'Scalawag in Tarot' certificate he can sell you for $25. I'm a published author with a well-selling tarot book. My knowledge is right there in print for you to see ~ do I have to pass 'certification' to make you believe I know what I am doing?
I don't see how showing a client you know what you're doing is a bad thing...
But, also, I wanted to know, what do you mean by the state denying the existance of tarot? NH I know has laws governing divination, which means they do certainly acknowledge it as existing. As for being valid? I don't think the US government would really say one way or the other regarding divination.
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| jmd |
12 Apr 2005 |
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Any store owner that assumes the validity of certification has simply been duped into believing those who have one of those and have flagged it. They henceforth come to believe that there is such a thing as a proper method of certification. A self-fulfilling run.
This does neither justice to the certificate, nor to those who have waved the same in front of store owners who would not know whether a reader (with or without the certificate) is any good.
I also wonder what it means to say that 'at least she is doing the cards right'? Is there a 'correct' meaning, outside of the reading-at-hand, to the sequence (or even singly) of the four of coins followed by the three of swords followed by the nine of cups? Or more: is there something that those three cards could not indicate in a specific reading?
I agree with muteswan that showing a client that you know what you're doing is not a bad thing - in fact I would say it is terrific. How one shows this, however, is by doing the reading. A certificate shows nothing of the sort.
This is also quite disctinct from any regulation a state may have for the registration of any business (for which there may be arguments related to taxation purposes). Certification, however, is unrelated to this.
If people want certificates for answering 'correctly' an exam on tarot, or having completed and participated in a course, fine. But let's not present it to the public as though it somehow makes the reader any the more knowledgeable or accurate as a reader as someone without such.
As I have mentioned in other posts, I am all for the learning situation of courses, of mentoring, of getting together with others (online or in places). These always add to one's knowledge, understanding and enables for greater diversity. The problem is when the process is assumed to lead to a certifiable outcome.
There are of course numerous people for whom I have the highest respect that hold differing views on this to myself. What cybercat has presented in two posts highlights the dangers I have been pointing to now for some years, with always the assurance that this would not be the case.
Unfortunately, I do sense that in some places there will be further decrease in liberty, all in the name of 'protecting the innocent' (as if any certification, when it comes to Tarot, can ever do this!).
Muteswan, would you care to mention, for general understanding, what kind of laws or regulations the US state of NH has with regards to divination, outside of possibly requiring that one has a permit to practice in public (and this for taxation purposes), obtainable from a sheriff's or police station's office?
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| Gwynne |
12 Apr 2005 |
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It's one thing to require a business license. I have one. It cost me $10 at the local County Clerks office. Now I can legally use the name Readings by Gwynne and no one else in my county can (not that there are that many Gwynne's out there... I met the second one in my lifetime yesterday... Did a reading for her too :lol: )
But that doesn't mean I'm a good or bad Tarot reader (I have days where I think I'm so horrid that I ought to just throw all my cards out the door.... then I have a client call, panicked and in need of a reading and I realize WHY I do this. I LOVE it...)
What that means is that if I screw up, the person can file a complaint, they can track me down, through legal means.
Certification will provide no such comfort. Current Tarot certifications are provided privately, and as many have said, can easily be faked. Who's to know that a certification is or isn't valid?
I could go out tomorrow to the County Clerks office, pay $10 to register a business name and list it as an educational foundation. Get a P.O. Box at the Post Office as I wouldn't want to give out my real address (notice a certain Tarot certification group has a P.O. Box) I could then go to OfficeMax and have letterhead and business cards printed for about $200 (or less). Then I just register a website ($8.95 for the domain, $7.99 a month for hosting) Build a website (real quick and easy if you know what you're doing, which I do.) That hosting would come with email addresses (admin@uppityTarotschool.com or whatever) I can also get an 800 number that rings at my home phone for about $30 a month. Just have the fax come to my normal fax line and *BOOM* I can now offer Tarot certificates!!!!
That's a cost of about $350 to startup and about $50 or less monthly. Of course I will have to charge for my certificates, as I do have to cover my operating costs and expenses. But I want to be competitive, so the first level of certification is only $25. Hey, that's cheaper than anyone else! Now, I want to get the name of my school out there, so I offer honorary certification to some of the bigger names. "Hey, so-and-so-big-name is certified with that school! They must be really good!" The class they get for that certification? Well, I'll provide that, it's a booklet with the keywords and a spread, basically a LWB, and a list of required and recommended reading (of course I'll set up affiliation with Amazon and encourage the required materials to be purchased through there...) Also, I'll offer to "acredit" certain classes that meet my standards. If you teach a Tarot class, you can offer it to students at my school and you can determine if they get certified or not!!!
Let's suppose I have only 4 people a month sign up for certification at the first level. Then a few months later they go for the higher levels, which of course cost more. The first month or so would be slow, I wouldn't be making any money. But eventually it starts rolling. People start talking about "I'm certified with such and so school of Tarot... you should take their certification it's great..." Eventually the money starts rolling in...
You see how easy that would be? You see how ANYONE could do it? I already have a Tarot class outline I could use! I teach private lessons, and while the lessons are individually tailored, I have a basic outline, you learn this before that, etc.... It could easily be modified to become required class for certification.
ANYONE could start a certification group. Anyone. And there are people out there who have been reading for YEARS who might not meet my standards of certification because my reading style is different and I expect different things.
There is no way to certify Tarot readers. We are ALL different. Personally I believe there are some bad readers out there who shouldn't be reading. They are fakes and charletans. BUT, they can fake their way through a certification exam! A certification doesn't prove they are an honest, ethical reader, just that they are good at faking.
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| tarotbear |
12 Apr 2005 |
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I don't see how showing a client you know what you're doing is a bad thing...
But, also, I wanted to know, what do you mean by the state denying the existance of tarot? NH I know has laws governing divination, which means they do certainly acknowledge it as existing. As for being valid? I don't think the US government would really say one way or the other regarding divination.
Can you see the current Bush administration - which wants to deny loving monogamous gays the right to marry - trying to give out 'Tarot Certifications'?
Can you be certified at the 'state' level and not at a 'national level' ?
By denies, I mean that certification implies that what you are reading (the meaning of this card following that card) has somehow been standardized and that you 'meet the quilifications' to be called a reader. How absurd is that? Does that mean that if the Certification Board doesn't like chapter two of my book because they don;t agree with me that they will deny me certification? The State of CT had 'Fortune Telling Laws (discussed elsewhere in other threads) on it's books until 1992. The state can license your business, but I don;t see the state ever being able to 'certify' your tarot reading abilities. If the state can't (and shouldn't do it) then 'tarot reader certification mills' will spring up overnight via the internet.
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| Gwynne |
12 Apr 2005 |
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It keeps being brought up that massage used to be un-regulated, and now it's a certification process before you can do massage. That argument is being used to justify the need for Tarot certification.
There's a HUGE difference though. There is a right way and a wrong way to do a massage. There is some lee-way, but not a lot. You do it wrong, your client KNOWS.
Sure there's a wrong way to do Tarot, but there is a MASSIVE amount of lee-way in the right way to do it! So how is a central governing authority going to determine what is or isn't the right or wrong way?
Am I wrong because I read intuitively with a bit of Gestalt thrown in? Is the other reader at the shop wrong because she uses keywords (even though her readings are horridly boring and monotonous, there is some accuracy to them... the cards are right, she's just got to work on delivery... :lol: )? Is the reader who uses elemental dignities wrong?
Who's going to decide which is right or which is wrong? Aren't they all right, in their own way? And so how is that going to be certified, with any sort of reasonable accuracy and without fees that range in the thousands?
I'm a reader, I make my living at it. It's the only job (beside Mom and Wife) that I do right now. I am able to help support my family, and my deck habit, but I don't have the extra money to pay hundreds, or even thousands of dollars, for classes and certifications in which I will learn little to nothing of value for my reading method. I've taken Tarot classes. I thought that since I was self-taught that I needed to take a *real* class from someone else. Guess what? I ended up teaching the teacher new ways to look at the cards! So how could she possibly certify me?
What about people who don't learn well in a class situation or who don't test well? Some people freeze, literally block themselves up, when they are being tested. Does that mean they are a bad reader? Nope, they just learn differently.
Regulation can be achieved by requiring a business license. Anyone can get one and claim to be a Tarot reader. And querents beware, as it should be. It's the sitter's responsibility to determine if a reader is good or bad, and word of mouth will very quickly make or break a readers career. Charletans and fakes don't get far in life, in Tarot, before they have to move on to something else. Sure the rest of us have to pick up the pieces, but most Tarot readers are healers, in one way or another, and picking up the pieces is just what we do.
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| MeeWah |
12 Apr 2005 |
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The possible political ramifications aside where certification concerned, the act of reading a very individualized process. Not a venue that lends itself to reduction to a lowest common denominator. As such, defies standardization.
Other than the basic or the traditional meanings generally associated with the individual cards, the reading process involves more than a familarity with such meanings though they may assist in the insight.
The actual interpretive process involves the ability to see beyond the surface of the common & to see the unique qualities accompanying each situation given to the reading.
In all the years of readings, no one has ever asked me for "proof".
Word-of-mouth has been a "standard", besides other means by which prospective clients may adjudge the skill.
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| cybercat |
12 Apr 2005 |
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Gynne I was using massage as an example that it will happen, not justifing the need for it. Here is something that has not been talked about. Since each country has it own Tarot association and some offer classes and reading practice and such. I see where these assocations will take it to the next level. This is how it usually works. The organizations grow with members and start adding things that will help them like insurance and such. Certification is a choise but in time it might not be for professionals. Who can say time will tell. I just say I can see it happening with what I have seen with other professions.
I know here in the US our associaction is separate from the certification groups. We actually have to groups that certify here. One I know will last the other I do not think will.
Cat.
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| jmd |
12 Apr 2005 |
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Speaking for myself only, not for the Association for Tarot Studies (ATS) to which I am a member, I have grave reservations about cybercat's comments that[indent]'Since each country has it own Tarot association and some offer classes and reading practice and such. I see where these assocations will take it to the next level. This is how it usually works. The organizations grow with members and start adding things that will help them like insurance and such. Certification is a choise but in time it might not be for professionals.'[/indent]The 'next level' implied (and as explained in another post by cybercat) is one that sees for the certification of readers. This would certainly be a 'next level', but not one upwards, nor in the direction of healthier engagement for Tarot and its readers.
It would, rather, take it down a level or two, and constrain the usage of Tarot to whatever is seen as 'legitimate' by those self-appointed as its guardians (of course, if this guard recognises that the Marseille has to be used as part of its foundation that all readers must use, without reference or recourse to the elements, 'dignities', or GD reference, then it may be on the right track }) - and of course this bracketed section is said in jest, in case there is any uncertainty!).
Apart from the International Playing Card Society (IP-CS), the only other Association or Society more specifically oriented to Tarot to which I was a member was the International Tarot Society (ITS) - and that because it did not in any manner support certification. In fact, some of the materials that came out from the Society suggested views similar to the critiques here presented. Unfortunately for the world, and especially North America (in which it was based), it has folded.
Since then, I have also been a founding member of the Association for Tarot Studies (ATS). Why did I not join another existing association? basically because all other existing ones in some form or other support certification(s) or 'endorsements' of readers, the (improper, to my mind) codification of ethics, or other such either inappropriate products or titles that in other ways is undermining of either established or future readers - and it may be worth noting that most anglophonic countries have more than one association or equivalent within its borders (the USA has quite a few, as an example), in addition to the possibility of joining more internationally based ones, such as the IP-CS or the ATS.
If ever, and unfortunately, any association to which I was member took the direction suggested by cybercat, I would of course cease my membership thereto immediately. It may be worth noting, of course, that members of the ATS are spread not just in Australia, but in North America, in Europe, and in Australasia (and there are no 'honorary' members) - some of whom may not of course share my own personal view (this is also certainly the case with regards to their preferred decks). The ATS does not, however, recognise nor provide either endorsement(s) or certification(s).
The 'next level' of professionalism, if heading in a healthy way, is in: recognising the diversity of views; of recognising that there cannot be, for Tarot, a 'benchmark'; of defending the myriad ways in which Tarot continues to be used (only twenty years ago, some of the ways in which it is now used more broadly was hardly used at all); and in encouraging further dialogue in understanding the historical, symbolic and iconographic aspects of Tarot, and further delving into its myriad uses, whether as spiritual tool, or for divinatory, ceremonial, or psychological usage.
With regards to the three certification bodies in the USA, let's have a close look, for the sake of discussion and better understanding, at one of these, and actually assess its criteria.
I will start a new thread, and email them in order for their own response to be available should they desire such.
Of course, I am not in the least assuming that their motive is in any manner whatsoever founded on the fictional scenario so well expounded above by Gwynne - which would also be a possible (or even likely!) consequence of 'compulsory certification'. I rather assume an underlying care of its founders and members - in the same manner that it may be out of 'care' that certain constraints have been imposed (also inappropriately, from my perspective) on the citizenry of various countries.
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| Timothy Lake |
04 May 2005 |
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Hey folks,
I am the current Executive Director of the TCBA. I certified up to CPTR( third rank) before taking the position. I am currently a CTI( sixth rank).
Why did I seek certification? I run a brick and mortar metaphysical shop in Schenectady, NY from which I offer Tarot and Rune Readings as well as products( Spring Eagle Magick shoppe). There are a lot of "gypsy" type readers in the area who will rip you off and steal your shoes after they trip you. The City government is beginning to crack down on them all by demanding a 100.00/year license to practice. They are also aggressively shutting down the more egregious offenders. I needed to have something that certified me as a capable practitioner, was useful for gov't officials to look at and that made me stand out as a reliable choice to prospective clients. Granted, I also build my clientele by having a good rapport with them, providing accurate advice and good analysis of trends and by treating them with respect. The certification does offer my clients one more reason to consult me. I have developed quite a curriculum vitae in the Tarot community and certification has helped beef up that curriculum vitae. I have also been proactive with the local government by becoming involved in local boards and have been active on local TV as an expert when needed.
If you think getting certified is useful to you and you think that you can then rest on your laurels, you'd be wrong. You have to work your certification and translate it into your greater community. Certification is a way of getting recognized amidst your peers but also the general community.
Tarot certification is not for everyone. If you are just looking to read for yourself or friends or as a hobby, I wouldn't bother. However, if you interested in building a career out of tarot reading, I highly recommend it. At this point, there are no laws that say you must. That might be changing,by the way. If you are looking to grow your business and reach out to sectors of the populace that you have not encountered before, certification can be helpful .
If you think you are interested, give me a call at 1-800-872-0556 and I'll get you started on your path of certification. The process is worthwhile and remember there will always be in any forum professionally disgruntled folks. Nobody knows what you need better than you.
Bright Blessings,
Rev. Tim Lake.
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| jmd |
05 May 2005 |
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To read above the following is alarming, to say the least:[indent]'if you interested in building a career out of tarot reading, [timothy lake] highly recommend[s certification]. At this point, there are no laws that say you must. That might be changing,by the way. If you are looking to grow your business and reach out to sectors of the populace that you have not encountered before, certification can be helpful'[/indent]
It is indeed up to the individual to determine for themselves what and how they read, and by all means engage with others in order to possibly improve the manner in which one reads, reflect on the various experiences of others, and discuss and be informed of the various impacts on Tarot in different parts of the world.
I would personally recommend especially to those who seek to engage in the Tarot world at a professional level to NOT give any false impression to the world in general about the actual worth or value of such claims. In the professional arena especially, proper representation as to what Tarot and Tarot readers are and can do is important, and no certification can ever properly reflect this.
By all means, if you are dabbling in it for yourself only, or amongst friends, and wish to add to the coffers of the TCBA, then by all means go through the process of purchasing one from Timothy Lake - but please do not publicly claim in any manner that such reflects any professionalism in Tarot, for it doesn't.
Timothy Lake has also chosen, at this stage, not to address some of the further concerns and questions raised in the other more recent thread (Tarot Certification Board of America - a critical appraisal).
Of course, it is really up to each person to carefully consider their own actions and involvement in whatever each decides...
...as a general question, Timothy, have ANY of those listed on the TCBA site as Certified Tarot Grandmasters actually obtained that certification from the TCBA according to its own stated rules? If so, of the 39, how many... and when?
It should also be noted that any 'city license' mentioned as a requirement to set up a practice is not (and hopefully never will) be in any way related to a certification for 'practising tarot readings', but rather a business-like registration (quite different, and totally independent of the same). In fact, and though having a 'certificate' may indeed add to a list of things one has on one's CV, the same can also be said of any certificate, degree or equivalent also bought via the internet. They certainly add to the list that one may include, but without any value.
To give the impression that the certificate is in any way legitimate is a first step towards taking away both freedom and honesty, and it is quite sad to read that Timothy (or anyone else) has used a tarot certificate to somehow claim legitimacy to a government body.
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| Timothy Lake |
05 May 2005 |
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First, the address to the TCBA is a PO box because there are 4 members on the board and those members will change from time to time due to elections. My personal address also belongs to my store: 123 Jay St., Schenectady, NY 12305. This is where I have the tests sent by folks who call in. That way materials come to me directly instead of the PObox which gets checked in albany once a week. I then spend upwards of an hour with the candidate's work
providing useful suggestions to better their reading style and providing other ways of interpreting the cards. I work with the candidate on their rapport building , flow and content. You will be amazed at what passes my desk that folks think passes for a tarot reading. If at some point I step down from my position, that address will be useless to the candidate.
Mary Greer was the disgruntled person who was passing along malicious content about John Gilbert in 2001. She has been unconnected with the certification process for some time now and does not hold any standing with our organization. These claims were studied in depth and proved to be false. You can see how the public record can be misadjusted. Any further information about that situation can be gotten by contacting Davron Michaels at edited by forum moderator to remove e-mail address
The levels and process of certification are proprietary to the TCBA and its predecessors. No other organization can use the process or the names. At this point, we are the only Certification Board in the US. Abroad, there are several countries who have licensure to use our system.
In regards to things that happened before my watch, I do not know what process was followed for all of the members. I do know that they all went through at least one set of processes. Rachel Pollack is very happy with her certification. She visited us at the Astral Light Temple in Albany last year. We also have good relationships with Ruthann and Wald Amberstone of the Tarot School in NYC, Sandra Thompson of the ATA and a great many others on that list and those folks support the certification process. In my time as Ex. Dir. , I have witnessed 4 CTGM certifications. They have all fulfilled the stipulations of each degree and met the requirements. Further, they have all had a positive impact of the International Tarot community. Now I ask our constant thorns, what have you done for the Tarot community recently? Added to the literature of the field? Provided lectures? News events? held conferences on Tarot? Anything besides naysaying until your teeth turn blue
and your fibromyalgea acts up? Perhaps now is the time for you to get active in the Community instead of being self-absorbed and negative.
Bright blessings,
Rev. Lake.
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| Lee |
06 May 2005 |
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Now I ask our constant thorns, what have you done for the Tarot community recently? Added to the literature of the field? Provided lectures? News events? held conferences on Tarot? Anything besides naysaying until your teeth turn blue
and your fibromyalgea acts up? Perhaps now is the time for you to get active in the Community instead of being self-absorbed and negative. I don't think it's necessary for someone to have done all these things before one can ask questions or raise concerns about the concept of tarot certification or the past actions of your organization or predecessors of your organization.
However, if your questions are addressed to jmd, I think in all fairness it should be noted that jmd is organizing the 2005 International Tarot Conference in Melbourne. He has been instrumental in the republication of Robert O'Neill's well-regarded but long out-of-print book "Tarot Symbolism." He has also organized Tarot Cafes in Australia. Not to mention his contributions to the tarot community through his duties as a moderator for the Aeclectic Tarot Forums. So he has done all the things you ask about in your post. So whatever point you're trying to make about community involvement, it appears in this case you've picked the wrong person to address that point to.
-- Lee
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| jmd |
06 May 2005 |
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Thank you Lee - and as you mention, one certainly need not have been involved in any of these things to raise any questions.
One of the interesting aspects of the last post by Timothy Lake is that he says that 'In my time as Ex[ecutive] Dir[ector] , I have witnessed 4 CTGM certifications. They have all fulfilled the stipulations of each degree and met the requirements'.
Given that Timothy Lake has been involved with the TCBA on its board since the inception of the organisation, this means that, out of the 29 listed TCBA certified 'Tarot Grand Masters', only four actually meet the stated certification requirements, with the others being honorary acclamations (which, again, is fine, as long as it is truthfully presented).
For myself, and given the past history that seems to suggest a direct link to the TCB, and also given what I know of the integrity of both Mary Greer and Ed Buryn, I would place greater trust in the 'disgruntled' misgivings mentioned by Mary Greer (and of course numerous others) about the activities of the now defunct TCB and the activities of John Gilbert than I would on what I have so far observed of the TCBA.
It should be mentioned that despite these misgivings, simultaneous positive comments were also made about John Gilbert in his bringing to greater consciousness the need for ethical behaviour when undertaking readings. This positive contribution has not, unfortunately, seemingly also been taken up in terms of the open and quite easy questions I originally raised in the other thread in my critique of the TCBA.
It would have been far more honest for Timothy to mention from the beginning that most of the TCBA 'Grand Masters' did not undertake the criteria as specified by its own charter, and that this will need to be altered in order to reflect truthfully what has occured.
Likewise, it would have been far more honest to make mention that a former organisation (the 'TCB') had developed problems to such an extant that it was disbanded. In its place arose two other organisations, the TCBA and the ABTC. More recently has also emerged the WTN, with, it seems, similar desires for certification in North America.
From there, we would at least have been able to address the far more important issues about certification in general, rather than whether any of the three bodies have any the greater legitimacy.
What is also interesting, returning to the point made by Lee, is whether any of the contributions a person makes to the world of Tarot in any way suggests whether a person is a good reader - remembering that the whole aspect about certification is not whether one knows any history, or is a good painter, or is a skilled shuffler, but whether or not the person is able to read a spread as it is given at the time of reading and, as significantly mentioned already, for a specific person for whom one is reading.
It is this latter that not only cannot be certifiable, but that, further, certification provides a false representation.
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| cybercat |
06 May 2005 |
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| World tarot network is actually promoting ABTC. They hold classes that help you meet there CEU requirments. Of course the owner of that site benifits from all the money made from those classes. Thats another topic. So I would say they do | |
