Having a problem with origins and legitimacy

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 05 Feb 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

piscesdreamer	05 Feb 2005
I guess i'm a tradtionalist.there are so many versions of the tarot out there,and many are meant to fit to a certain esoteric agenda.But i have a tendency to go back to origins,and try and discern their true meaning.i've recently picked up the i ching and it seems more umiform in meaning than the tarot.all systems of divination differ but the tarot seems so wide open to it's forms and interpetation that i'm losing faith in it as a system due to the wide bredth of interpetation.given the wide assortment of decks and intepetation what is the true path of tarot?

Alta	05 Feb 2005
I wonder if you may not be focussing on an unhelpful (to yourself) point of view. Do you really want a system to explore the human heart and soul and the ways of the world with a rigid paint-by-numbers system? I don't mean that literally, but the edges have to be fuzzy, in order to see the relationships, in order to see deeply. I Ching is much less "this means this" than you appear to think. Like tarot, I Ching will pun and joke, suddenly pull back edges and give you a new viewpoint. "Fuzzy logic" was developed by mathematicians because so-called fixed sets could not deal well with situations (like weather forecasting for example) wherein relationships between individual elements became important. You can't have rigid walls between sets of numbers; it is better to develop 'probability of interaction' between them. These probability sets (that is probability of interactions and how strong, especially at the edges of things) allow the development of many elegant mathematical ideas that have carried us far. To take weather forecasting again. When computers first came out, everyone focussed on deterministic solutions, that is, one problem, one answer. But the atmosphere tricked these solutions with depressing (for the forecasters) regularity. Scientists found out a couple of things. 1. You can never truly know the starting point, and 2. the end point can be quite a range of events with probabilities attached to them. And picking the most probable event doesn't even work that well. In fact if you pick the average of the solutions you are very likely to be wrong. And to take this even further, the solutions of most interest, that is most importance, are the out-liers. The extreme events that cause really bad outcomes to happen. Deterministic solutions work very poorly here. It is that darned fuzzy logic again. Being a traditionalist, if by that you mean fixed meanings, or close to fixed, is very likely to wind up leading you down a dry and sterile path. just my opinion of course. Marion

Jeannette	05 Feb 2005
I'd like to second Marion's opinion. To clarify: I think it's important to be in agreement regarding semantics. Tarot cards do not have "true meanings" -- rather, they have a constellation of meanings, any and all of which are "true" if interpreted in the correct context. There's nothing wrong with exploring the myriad of meanings via "traditional" rather than "contemporary" symbolism. If "tradition" speaks more deeply to you, if it resonates in your soul more clearly, then by all means, stick with the acknowledged classics, and skip the updates, reworkings, recolorings, "corrections," etc. But please don't be deterred by the fact that many of the more recently-published decks may use (sometimes radically) different symbol systems to express the same (sets of) ideas. I would be the last person to claim that every deck every published presents a useful and accurate picture of the school of philosophy and metaphysics that has come to be referred to as "tarot." But by the same token, I wouldn't immediately dismiss an "updated" approach to tarot symbolism as being inherently "wrong" or "un-useful." While I understand and appreciate the symbolic approaches adopted by the more famous historical decks, I also feel quite strongly that my understanding of tarot has been greatly enhanced -- if perhaps on a card-by-card basis (that is, sometimes by just a few isolated cards within a deck rather than the whole deck itself) -- by studying some of the better contemporary "reframings" of tarot's imagery. One of tarot's greatest strengths, IMO, is its tremendous adaptability. The symbols may change to reflect the zeitgeist of a paricular culture and era, but if the deck creator knows what he or she is doing, we can ultimately reach the same conclusions. Not all roads lead to the truth, but it would be an error to assume from that fact that the truth is only reachable by one road. -- Jeannette The Tarot Garden

Rosanne	05 Feb 2005
Hi PicesDreamer, You question took me back to a discussion I had sometime ago with a emigrant from mainland China(now a family friend). He is a middle aged traditional Chinese merchant here, but was a painter and I Ching practioner in China. He will do a reading if asked. He told me after an accurate reading, that it was all just a matter of statistics and not so much intuition. He knew about Tarot and said something like..." ah the method of going into your heart with pictures and puzzles to find out what speaks to you." He seemed to think it was more intuitive somehow, but it was not his cultural base, but could see why it was the base of Western thought 'fortune telling'. He said cards were for gambling where he was raised. I have an I ching set and one with painted cards. I can not seem to connect with the system somehow. I am attempting to connect with the Tarot de Marseilles, I have always used the RW type system up till now. Pictorial cards are what works for me so I have yet to see what I can glean from TdM pips . Regards Rosanne

piscesdreamer	05 Feb 2005
Rosanne wrote: Hi PicesDreamer, You question took me back to a discussion I had sometime ago with a emigrant from mainland China(now a family friend). He is a middle aged traditional Chinese merchant here, but was a painter and I Ching practioner in China. He will do a reading if asked. He told me after an accurate reading, that it was all just a matter of statistics and not so much intuition. He knew about Tarot and said something like..." ah the method of going into your heart with pictures and puzzles to find out what speaks to you." He seemed to think it was more intuitive somehow, but it was not his cultural base, but could see why it was the base of Western thought 'fortune telling'. He said cards were for gambling where he was raised. I have an I ching set and one with painted cards. I can not seem to connect with the system somehow. I am attempting to connect with the Tarot de Marseilles, I have always used the RW type system up till now. Pictorial cards are what works for me so I have yet to see what I can glean from TdM pips . Regards Rosanne well if anything the tdm in my opinion would seem the most authentic in regards to tarot as oppossed to say the hello kittly deck,lol.i mean please where does one draw the line on pop culture and real divinatiatory tools????

Fudugazi	05 Feb 2005
piscesdreamer wrote: I guess i'm a tradtionalist.there are so many versions of the tarot out there,and many are meant to fit to a certain esoteric agenda.But i have a tendency to go back to origins,and try and discern their true meaning.i've recently picked up the i ching and it seems more umiform in meaning than the tarot.all systems of divination differ but the tarot seems so wide open to it's forms and interpetation that i'm losing faith in it as a system due to the wide bredth of interpetation.given the wide assortment of decks and intepetation what is the true path of tarot? Which is the true path to the Divine? Is there only one? I love using the I-ching, too, piscesdreamer. But unless you read ancient Chinese, and can calligraphy each hexagramme to a T, then all you and I are getting is interpetations - in translation. I have read at least five different translations (in French and English) from the original Chinese, which gave sometimes radically different meanings. So is i-ching any more accurate a system than Tarot for a non-Chinese writing Westerner? I doubt it. It feels more like "book-learning" and "system" because of the words - all translated recently. I have found i-ching very practical, and I also like the whole idea of reaching the mean - and the Taoist idea of emptying. And as Marion said - i-ching has a great sense of humour (a bit biting at times...). But Tarot I find creative, dynamic and adaptable in a way i-ching is not to someone who does not read 5000-year old Chinese ideogrammes and pictogrammes (and perhpas even to those who do). I believe you are very new to Tarot - you have worlds of numerology, sacred geometry, symbolism, alchemy and Kabbalah to discover, before you can decide the Tarot has no system - that should take you a few decades ;)

Fudugazi	05 Feb 2005
piscesdreamer wrote: well if anything the tdm in my opinion would seem the most authentic in regards to tarot as oppossed to say the hello kittly deck,lol.i mean please where does one draw the line on pop culture and real divinatiatory tools???? Divinatory tools can be pebbles on the beach. I've done divination with blank bits of paper with the names of cards scribbled on them, or with playing cards. Tarot is something else.

Rosanne	05 Feb 2005
Hi again, I have a personality disorder(split) when it comes to Tarot decks. I collect and I read. Quite often the two don't meet. I have not being able to read with some of my collection. Then again, I do not seem to collect Tarots like 'Hello Kitty" etc. I have discovered on this forum that people connect to some of these and can read well. I would spend my time laughing and see those picture symbols as not applying to anything for me. I have four reading decks for myself. They are Spiral Tarot, Estensi golden Tarot of the Renaisance(repro Historical),Rider Waite (I learned with) and Intuitive tarot(somewhat Thothlike). These pictures when studied, evoke in me things I know and can relay to another; it does not matter when they were printed or how historical they are they just have echos that I relate to.To top that off, these pistures are within a system that works when laid in patterns. The more I try to dissect that, the more I don't know why they work. I love the Historical aspect and research appeals to me. Thats how it is for me. Regards Rosanne

Rosanne	05 Feb 2005
Pisces Dreamer, the Tarot is like a text book for my Human condition and how to live it. (should have said that first) and I like those aforementioned textbooks, Spiral, Estensi etc. Regards Rosanne

Magi	06 Feb 2005
My opinion was best expressed in this post i made in the Naked Tarot thread: "The essence of the tarot is the archtypecal symbols that are recurrent within the human life. These symbols are multi leveled and ever present. On this point, at it's most basic level the earliest tarot images are the multitude of ancient cave pantings that early humans left behind. The tarot deck that we have today is this same symbolisim in a very refined form. I may step on a few toes here, but you can watch the symbols of the tarot evolve from cave pantings, to tomb paintings, to statuary, to paintings, to cards, and all you need do is visit a few muesiems. look around you and you will see the tarot alive and well in our lives today. As I said in another thread, the tarot is a living orginisim, not unlike any organic life. And all organic life must grow by a series of numbers called the Fibinarchi series. Example; 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, ect, with each succesive number being the combined total of the previous two. I think the real question is what is do you gain from the tarot? If you gain nothing from it, than you should put the cards away, because they'll be of no real use to you. Under stand that I in no way mean any of this to be flamitory, but the tarot is a set of symbols that we can use to better ourselves, not a cheap parlor game. And with that said I'm done." As for the multitude of different themed decks, one must connect with the imagery to gain full understanding of the tarot. If you don't understand the images than you will never under stand the tarot & to you it will be nothing but another pack of cards. Blessings, Magi

Fudugazi	06 Feb 2005
Magi wrote: As I said in another thread, the tarot is a living organism, not unlike any organic life. Oh man, that is so true! I feel it alive and pulsing whenever I pick a deck up. And I couldn't have such conversations, hear such wisdom, jokes, rueful or rude remarks from something inert.

HudsonGray	06 Feb 2005
If you're going to stay with the older decks, you'll also need to do a lot of study on Medieval & Renaissance history. How does the plague affect the Death card, what are the hailstones on the Tower card and why is the top off there when newer decks focus on a different look, which version of the Fool (age, clothing, background) is appropriate to the timeline you're studying, what role did Christian religion play in the interpretation of the Pope card, and the counterpart Pappesse card? Was the Hanged Man connected to the Itallian use of hanging pictures upside down to warn others of merchants who didn't pay their city fees or who were known cheats? How much alchemy do you have to know to understand the Star, what role did the Hermit play in Medieval Europe in the various countries, Etc. Be prepared to read through a lot of the Marseille discussions and to find some really old books that talk about the older decks.

Logiatrix	06 Feb 2005
piscesdreamer, In regards to the I Ching, it is a system I knew growing up. My grandfather read bamboo sticks (no, not yarrow stalks) for people during the Cherry Blossom Festival. It was amusing to see the tourists from the suburbs stand in awe of his old I Ching text written on rice paper and bound with ribbons; it was on the table only for effect--he actually consulted a crisp, brand new volume of the Wilhelm translation. More amusing was that he was Japanese, not Chinese, but no one seemed to notice or care; at any rate, his readings were still quite "authentic" and accurate. Incidentally, now there are hundreds and hundreds of translations and paraphrases of the I Ching ("I Ching Made Easy", "A Woman's I Ching", "The Fortuneteller's I Ching", "The I Ching of Love"...) and the uniformity between them is often difficult to see. If you delve further into it, you will discover a huge debate about who or what holds the most authentic translation, and it is more heated than any dispute on the ATF about the most "authentic" version of tarot. Oh, and then there's the argument concerning how to build your hexagram: use three coins, use six coins, use eight coins, use only yarrow stalks, use only beads, use a computer (binary system), use only ONE coin... Personally, I read with my own system. It is the same with tarot; I have my own favorite decks, my own preferred school of symbolic thought, and my own personal meanings. When I began studying tarot, I tried to put myself in a box, and I tried to fit tarot in one, too. The very best advice I got regarding tarot came from a very nice Aeclectician named "Umbrae"...he simply said, "Relax." When I finally relaxed, I found that the more I learned, the less necessary it was to make anything fit; in fact, that is the greatest lesson tarot gave me: the cosmos has no walls, and I have no limits. I believe a label such as "traditionalist" is a limit you are putting on yourself, with the risk of missing out on the rest of the Tarot Cosmos beyond those walls. piscesdreamer wrote: well if anything the tdm in my opinion would seem the most authentic in regards to tarot as oppossed to say the hello kittly deck,lol.i mean please where does one draw the line on pop culture and real divinatiatory tools???? Therefore, one draws the line where she or he chooses to, so it is ultimately an individual choice each of us makes for ourselves...even if some of us choose to read with the "Hello, Kitty" deck. ;) Many BLESSINGS to you on your journey... :)

MattDouglas	06 Feb 2005
Piscesdreamer, In regards to what is the truth path, all I have to say is that if you and I meet at the top of a mountain who is either one of us to tell the pther that "You climbed up the wrong way."? Just enjoy your climb. Love, understanding, and compassion Matt

Ceit	06 Feb 2005
Quote: well if anything the tdm in my opinion would seem the most authentic in regards to tarot as oppossed to say the hello kittly deck,lol.i mean please where does one draw the line on pop culture and real divinatiatory tools???? Tarot is the glimpse to the divine! How we communicate to it, is how we can relate to the cards. If a person can identify more with the Hello Kitty deck, then who are you to say that is wrong. How many times have people looked at a card then a traditional meaning and say; "No, that's not it” There is something more in the card." A person can see a color or a felling or something different from the "learned" meaning of the card. The cards are a tool no matter what. The original tarot decks (according to some) where nothing more that Pop Culture games of the time-- order to make by the Nobility to edge off a long winters night. it was much later when tarot became Divinity cards that people started to have "ridged" rules. I read from The Gothic tarot of Vampires, a very dark deck, but the cards seem to speak to me. Each one of us connect to deck or don't. I have the Witchy Deck which I think are interesting but I haven't read with them, I am not sure if I will because they don't speak to me -- they might at some point, but at the moment i draw a blank. Each person can bring their own "knowledge" into a system it's how a card speaks to you. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for others. I hope that helps. Ceit

Cerulean	06 Feb 2005
Some of this history of a divinatory system based on the I-Ching shows a variant here that says the original might have had a taoist slant. http://www.taodeck.com/his.html If you use coins or sticks, I can look for other links. I do not read Chinese, I'm dependent on English translations and there are several available. If you are saying you are essentially conservative in terms of your tools, I believe the family structure and conservative nature of the sayings in the I-Ching would be appealing. My grandmothers read Japanese and recognized the Chinese symbols as well; they also liked the lovely landscape depictions that I found in a pictorial French version of the I-Ching. I have found historical Italian trumps and tarocchi patterns essentially more conservative, but I like the understanding of us being modernists looking backwards on the patterns and using the allegorical tools if we can. Best regards in what you choose and your tools! Cerulean

Logiatrix	07 Feb 2005
Thank you for this, Cerulean... Cerulean wrote: ...I like the understanding of us being modernists looking backwards on the patterns and using the allegorical tools if we can. An elegant gathering of words. :)

caridwen	07 Feb 2005
"I guess i'm a tradtionalist.there are so many versions of the tarot out there,and many are meant to fit to a certain esoteric agenda.But i have a tendency to go back to origins,and try and discern their true meaning.i've recently picked up the i ching and it seems more umiform in meaning than the tarot.all systems of divination differ but the tarot seems so wide open to it's forms and interpetation that i'm losing faith in it as a system due to the wide bredth of interpetation.given the wide assortment of decks and intepetation what is the true path of tarot?" How do you know you're a 'traditionalist' if you've never studied the cards? No one knows for sure where the Tarot came from, you can take a guess but there are many different versions of their origins. Try and discern their 'true' meaning? You mean Absolute Truth? Good luck it will take you the rest of your life...the beauty of Tarot is the variation of meaning according to position, querent, time, place, task...the list is endless. When you begin it is difficult and confusing - some suggest it's best to begin with One Card at a time. You can build your own system. You can 'programme' your cards. You can base it on Numerology/Kabbalah/Alechemy/Magick/Jung/Colours/Symbols/Mythology/Bible et al. Have fun with it and experiment. Your interpretation will change based on experience and knowledge. It may come full circle and you will change back to the original meanings after a long journey. But it is a journey and the nature of that journey depends on you.

The Having a problem with origins and legitimacy thread was originally posted on 05 Feb 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.