Horoscope signs and reading cards

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 25 Feb 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Elmcarra	25 Feb 2005
Hey all, This is a pretty broad question... Im a capricorn, and just found out my moon sign is scorpio with ascendant as cancer. Im not sure how our "sign" enters into our readings. Any thoughts on this or personal experiences? And if any other capi's read this, which cards do you find repeat for capricorns, yourself or others, and which ones represent capricorns specifically. Does that make sense? Just wondering how these two incorporate. Thanks for munching on this with me!! elm

closrapexa	27 Feb 2005
I have found that sometimes, not always, mind you, that the sign shows up in the elements that are in the reading. Sometimes, in a reading for someone that has a water sign, Cups will be predominant. However, don't take my word for it, since this doesn't always work and I don't always "see it"

Fulgour	27 Feb 2005
I'm a Scorpio and many books associate 13 Death with Scorpio. Then it was shown that if you match up the letters and numbers of the cards correctly (first letter first card etc) then my card is really paired with the 14th letter, and Scorpio is 14 Temperance. Capricorn is another card match up that changes, and it is not 15 The Devil, but really 16 The Tower. I hope that this comes as good news to you, though it's a little like switching a saying: because now you are out of the fire, but into the frying pan.:) As for your ascendant, Cancer is the 8th letter being 8 Justice. Other Capricorn match ups: The Queen of Pentacles 2 of Pentacles (Jupiter in Capricorn) 3 of Pentacles (Mars in Capricorn) 4 of Pentacles (Sun in Capricorn)

rainwolf	01 Mar 2005
I think "tarot mysteries" gives all the astro correspondences for the miners. I go by court astro correspondence in two ways: first by actual attributation, and second by actions/behaviors

Simone	01 Mar 2005
Elm, like closrapexa, I have had inklings about signs or at least the predominant element of the querent, and the Crowley Thoth deck (and probably others too) attributes signs or elements to the cards. I once did a reading for a person and I had the strong feeling it should be a capricorn ;) - and I got it right... Go with your feelings on this one is my best advice, but be aware that the cards may not always give an indication... Love Simone

Sophie-David	02 Mar 2005
Hi Elmcarra Welcome to the ATF! I have Capricorn Sun and Ascendent. The Golden Dawn tradition associates Capricorn with the Devil, and I would concur with this. Saturn in Capricorn says "I rule", and the Devil can be seen as "The Possessor". But in addition I associate Saturn in Capricorn with the Emperor, since Capricorn is also about "Authority". I have seen this to be a much closer map to the Emperor than the Golden Dawn association with Mars. In Minors, the Earth suit of Pentacles has a close affinity to those earthy Capricorns. I have often seen the Ten of Pentacles refer to me, particularly when I'm acting in "Capricorn mode" - often not a good thing ;). But the Sun and Ascendent is of course just one part of who we are: the other planets in their sign, houses and aspects also influence our perceptions and actions in a particular situation. And then there are the affects of the transiting planets on our natal chart too. Cheers David

tarotbear	02 Mar 2005
I am not an astrologer; I think Tarot is enough of a discipline to learn, much less another one to put on top of it! However, knowing what Sign ties in to what card will not hurt you in the least. For example, The King of Pents is associated with Taurus {not chiselled in stone}, so if he popped up in a reading and you were discussing this man, who your querent may think of as being a couple of possible men, when you say 'This card is usually associated with Taurus' - it may help narrow down the field. :smoker:

M-Press	02 Mar 2005
Hi! I must say that I love incorporating astrology into tarot, it just explains things better to me, in both vice-versa ways... if i'm doing a reading for someone who is for example a fire sign, and got NO wand cards, or any fiery majors, then this is an indication that this person at the moment is lacking his most essential fire. Then, there is this whole thing about how each court card, represents a zodiac sign. There are several versions to that, but I can tell you the one that works for me: in general, the Cup court cards are water signs, the coins are earth signs, the wands are fire signs and the swords are air signs. you can decide that you stick with that, AND/OR add the following: KINGS represent cardinal signs ( Aries, Cancer, Libra, Capricorn) as they set the direction. QUEENS represent fixed signs (Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius) which show manifestation and staying power. PAGES represent mutable signs (Gemini, Virgo, sadge, Pisces) as they are younger and can still adapt and change. The KNIGHTS represent the element of the suit itself and the passage ("riding") from one phase to another. some people like to use one of the court cards as a significator, other like to see if it will come up in the reading. Good luck with your exploration!

Sophie-David	02 Mar 2005
Hi M-Press I don't think I've run into you before, nice to meet you. That's a cool name! I really like your astrological treatment of the Courts, it makes a lot of sense to me - the Golden Dawn one does not. Referring to Elmcarra's original question, I definitely associate the King of Pentacles with Capricorn too. I'm not quite sure if I would want to swap the meanings of Page and Knight, but I'll have to think about that. Was this Astrology to Court mapping your creation, or from another source? David

M-Press	03 Mar 2005
Sophie-David wrote: Was this Astrology to Court mapping your creation, or from another source? David Hello David, nice to meet you too ;) Although I am the creator of the Sakki-Sakki Tarot, I would never claim that the astrological mapping of the deck is my creation. I have read many books that incorporated astrology, and I saw many differences in them and in the way they explained things. This particular mapping, is the one that made most sense to me, and sounded convincing. I'm very analytical, and like things to "click" perfectly. In some books I read that The Queen of Swords is Virgo, and the Page of Swords Taurus, and i just didn't inderstand why an air card is an earth sign... There was a website that showed all the versions of asrtological attributions to tarot, but I can't seem to find it anywhere in my bookmarks... On the other hand though, although I did add the astrological connections on all the cards, I did leave the court cards blank, for the reason you just stated. Some people, are so used to a specific connection with a sign, that i didn't want to "kill" that. So, for me, both options above work: as long as the zodiac sign is in the same element, I'm ok with it. Signs from the same elements, do share quite a lot, anyway... Now, regarding the meanings of Pages and Knights, well, I still see the Pages as messengers with news (which can bring change), but the Knights as a more manifestated movement (or the announcing of a new phase, and not just news about it). Does that make sense?

Elmcarra	03 Mar 2005
Thank you all for giving me some feedback, this has given me a better sense of my connectedness with the cards. M-Press and David, I appreciate both of your viewpoints and thank you for taking the time to help me break this down into more managable bites. I have to say, as a capi, I find that the devil really defines my strugges...I mean my BIG struggles. I tend to gravitate toward impulsivity and over indulgence...I dont do many things half way, its all or nothing and I have to be conscious of that. Anyhoo, I do see a LOT of pentacles in my readings, but for some reason, it irritates me. Weird. I get a kind of "here we go again" response when I see them come up. The queen also shows up frequently, but I dont always identify with her kindness and generosity...I tend to be a bit too hard nosed at times, but I think its due to my capi ambitiousness. Dunno. Will continue to study this...but the input is great, and I will refer back to the info you have all provided in the future. sincerely, elm ps David "particularly when I'm acting in "Capricorn mode" - often not a good thing", har har, I hear you.

Sophie-David	03 Mar 2005
Elmcarra wrote: I have to say, as a capi, I find that the devil really defines my strugges...I mean my BIG struggles. I tend to gravitate toward impulsivity and over indulgence...I dont do many things half way, its all or nothing and I have to be conscious of that. Yes, some of the positives of Capricorn are a tenacious follow-through of process or procedure, and the ability to formulate and follow systems and guidelines.* But in the corresponding negative directions we fall into obsession, legalism and dualism. By dualism I mean the tendency to polarize our thoughts and the reluctance to consider shades of grey. *Esoteric Capricorn tend to love astrology with its layers of systemization - I have to make a deliberate effort not to be seduced and obsessed by it. ;) Elmcarra wrote: Anyhoo, I do see a LOT of pentacles in my readings, but for some reason, it irritates me. Weird. I get a kind of "here we go again" response when I see them come up. The queen also shows up frequently, but I dont always identify with her kindness and generosity...I tend to be a bit too hard nosed at times, but I think its due to my capi ambitiousness. Dunno. Yes, I also tend to become irritated with both Pentacles and my own Capricorn tendencies. With a typically Capricorn polar response, I'm afraid I have overcompensated and gone too far the other way, into my Aquarian planets. I'm losing the gifts of self-discipline, groundedness and organization that Capricorn provides. The most significant symptom of this is a loss of energy, since by nature I must draw energy from the earth. I too find balance difficult - so I can even obsess over establishing balance too. ;) Elmcarra wrote: Will continue to study this...but the input is great, and I will refer back to the info you have all provided in the future. I found some interesting Aeclectic threads with further info on Courts and Astrology: [thread=14280]Astrological signs in court cards?[/thread] and [thread=37774]court cards and astrology[/thread]. From one of these threads, I discovered that Llewellyn has a great article on the characteristics of Courts, Hidden and Secret Meanings: The Court Cards. The author explains the Golden Dawn attribution of Capricorn to the Queen of Pentacles, among many other interesting details. Cheers David

Sophie-David	03 Mar 2005
Fulgour wrote: I'm a Scorpio and many books associate 13 Death with Scorpio. Then it was shown that if you match up the letters and numbers of the cards correctly (first letter first card etc) then my card is really paired with the 14th letter, and Scorpio is 14 Temperance. Capricorn is another card match up that changes, and it is not 15 The Devil, but really 16 The Tower. I hope that this comes as good news to you, though it's a little like switching a saying: because now you are out of the fire, but into the frying pan.:) Fulgour, I may never find time to read it :), but do you recall the source for this particular reassignment of the Majors? I would have great difficulty perceiving Capricorn in the Tower. I see Capricorn as all about preserving material structure and attachments, full of conservative Saturn energy. The Tower seems far too radical to be a Cappy! And not meaning anything personal, but I think of Scorpios plunging into the depths of transformative Death, including le petit morte. Its difficult to think of Scorpios as temperate! Blessings David

Sophie-David	03 Mar 2005
M-Press wrote: Hello David, nice to meet you too ;) Although I am the creator of the Sakki-Sakki Tarot, Hi M-Press, I didn't realize (duh!), so I went and checked it out. Sakki-Sakki Tarot looks very original, with great creativity and a good sense of humour. Congratulations! M-Press wrote: Signs from the same elements, do share quite a lot, anyway... Yes, I've noticed that some readers simply link the element in general to a particular court, for example any of the members of the Court of Pentacles could link to any of the earth signs Capricorn, Taurus and Virgo. M-Press wrote: Now, regarding the meanings of Pages and Knights, well, I still see the Pages as messengers with news (which can bring change), but the Knights as a more manifestated movement (or the announcing of a new phase, and not just news about it). Does that make sense? Yes it does, but I'm really going to have to weigh this further. The Pages are often not given a specific connection to astrological sign, as in one of the models the Llewellyn article describes. Give me a day or two and this Capricorn will reach a verdict. ;) Cheers David

M-Press	04 Mar 2005
Thanks David for the links! Actually, I think this one is among those that i couldn't find, so now I have it again! Part of the journey, is keep figuring out these things...from experience... Not just to decide by "which" version the cards should be interpreted, but to start deciding that according to experience. From myself I know, that i know more about some cards, and understand them better, becasue I GET them more. So, when I get the King of Cups, I know EXACTLY how that feels, and the zodiac sign is of less importance... I think this is why I left them blank, after all... In anycase, of course I'm looking forward to hear your verdict, whether it lasts a moment or a life time. There is something charming in guessing "which card am I" in the deck, anyway...and even more charming "what do I have to do with the Devil"...;)

Elmcarra	04 Mar 2005
Hello again, David, thank you, I will check out those links. I am having to set aside time to do my researching on this forum...If Im not careful, I can be sitting here at the machine and next thing I know, Im late for work! Thanks again! M-Press, I will certainly look into your method. How did you come up with the name? =) sincerely elm

The Horoscope signs and reading cards thread was originally posted on 25 Feb 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.