The death card & Pavlov's dog.
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 23 Feb 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| Red Emma |
23 Feb 2005 |
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Pavlov discovered in experiments with his dog, that 'conditioning' plays a very heavy role in the reaction of humans to fairly harmless things.*
Take the death card, for instance. Once when I read for my 14-year-old granddaughter and a couple of her friends, the death card came up. I did explain that it did mean change, not a physical death. Still, they were so rattled
It rattled the three of them so badly I couldn't
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| Grizabella |
23 Feb 2005 |
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I know what you mean. It even affects me like that sometimes. I keep telling myself it doesn't mean actual death, but there's that nagging "thing" in the back of my mind.
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| WolfSpirit |
23 Feb 2005 |
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It also works the other way:
I did a little reading for a meeting this afternoon - I drew the ace of wands and the Star and I sailed through the whole thing :D I just felt so energetic.
Now find a way to avoid the Pavlov reaction for the darker cards...
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| MeeWah |
23 Feb 2005 |
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...Take the death card, for instance. Once when I read for my 14-year-old granddaughter and a couple of her friends, the death card came up. I did explain that it did mean change, not a physical death. Still, they were so rattled
It rattled the three of them so badly I couldn't
Red Emma: Could have referred to the end of childhood, the beginning of womanhood & the menses.
Had occasion to read it thusly for younger teenaged girls; at least one pre-teen--onset of menses at 12. Also based on personal experience of same.
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| Red Emma |
23 Feb 2005 |
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Okay, here's the thing. I have this idea about 'death' being a cultural attitude which it is very hard to change. And tarot readers who "tell it like it is" are being neither sensitive or fair to their clients. Started writing it, got about 1/3 of the way through and the stupid thing posted itself.
I tried to 'edit' it, but the edit didn't take. Unable to spend more time on it today, will try to start from scratch and do it later.
I appreciate those who posted to the partial idea. I hope to do a much better post in a day or two.
Sorry about that!
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| wandking |
23 Feb 2005 |
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Perhaps the image should rattle us a bit, putting Pavlov aside, consider Jung. I wonder when streotypes become archetypes. hmmm, maybe they're already the same thing.
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| TemperanceAngel |
23 Feb 2005 |
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When I have read for females aged between 11-14, I can just about be guaranteed that Death will turn up.
At that age a girls body changes so much, including the possible beginnings of her menstral cycle.
When Death has appeared I explain just that too them and how the card symbolizes physical change (menstruation etc.) as well as moving from childhood to adolescence. In all cases the clients have been happy with the explanation and it has also dissolved their fear of the card. I also think that if we fear a card, it might just show its face in our readings :)
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| WalesWoman |
24 Feb 2005 |
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It is strange that Death doesn't really mean death literally. I've been doing some readings about a freind of mine who I found out a week ago is dying...very soon and have gotten Tower, Hanged Man, Hermit, Justice, Temperance, Judgement, Universe, 8 Swords, 6 Swords, 8 Cups, 5 Pents, Empress and the Sun...of all things!!! But not Death. Not in that order, but they all show up consistantly. What is even stranger is doing an online free reading and seeing those same cards come up almost in the same order that I drew them in.
I would guess for young girls...one of those decks that has the butterfly emerging from it's cocoon as Death/Transformation would be a good one to use, not so terrifying...which deck is that anyway??? I could also see that card coming up for those same girls in about 35-40 years, when they transform again at the "change of life."
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| jmd |
24 Feb 2005 |
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Perhaps the other question to ask is what is Death 'literally'?
For some of us at least, it is partly the laying aside one's vehicle(s) (physical and etheric bodies) as a first step in a process.
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| Diana |
24 Feb 2005 |
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There is no death card in my Tarot decks. That should be an easy way to get rid of the Pavlov dog (although when one reaches the Fool at the end of the deck, one could get mightily confused.)
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| Grizabella |
24 Feb 2005 |
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Waking the Wild Spirit and Merryday, to name two decks I can think of that I have, don't have a Death card. Both those decks might be great for reading for children and teens.
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| Diana |
24 Feb 2005 |
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Lyric: Adults are often a lot more scared of death than kids and teenagers are.
Anyway, why would one want to hide the reality of life from children and teenagers? (I know some people who don't use some tarot decks in front of children, because there is nudity in it! :eek: ) Kids don't need to be sheltered from the truth. And teenagers even less.
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| psychic sue |
24 Feb 2005 |
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I have seen actual physical death in the cards only twice in 25 years. And neither spread had the actual death card in, and on both occasions the death was not the querant but someone they were close to.
By the way, on both occasions I didn't voice my inner thoughts, as I would never tell anyone of such a thing.
I'm curious as to what other people would do if they saw a real death in the cards. Do you think I should have told the querant?
Just edited my post to add that I found out about the actual deaths at a later date, so my reading was accurate.
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| Diana |
24 Feb 2005 |
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I have seen signs of people dying in the World card. Which makes a lot of sense. But it would depend on the cards preceding it.
Any card can point to physical death actually. Someone dying in a fire could be the Sun. Someone dying in a car-crash could be The Chariot. Someone being executed (in countries where capital punishment is still allowed :mad: ), could be the Hanged Man.
Depends on the context.
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| jumptothemoonyea |
24 Feb 2005 |
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The dog on the Fool card illustrates Pavlov's concept pretty accurately, don't you think :D
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| wandking |
24 Feb 2005 |
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you write "I have seen actual physical death in the cards only twice in 25 years. And neither spread had the actual death card in, and on both occasions the death was not the querant but someone they were close to.
By the way, on both occasions I didn't voice my inner thoughts, as I would never tell anyone of such a thing.
I'm curious as to what other people would do if they saw a real death in the cards. Do you think I should have told the querant?
Just edited my post to add that I found out about the actual deaths at a later date, so my reading was accurate."
I feel you did the right thing... Some say Tarot is simply self-fulfilling prophesy. I disagree with this notion and findings like yours confirm the conclussion to some degree... Tarot, however, can easily become self-fulfilling prophesy with some clients and by predicting events, we might be programming certain clients to live, or in this case die, the event. I've often wondered what a spread predicting Death would look like. Do you remember which cards came up in the spreads?
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| Kara |
24 Feb 2005 |
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I've often wondered what a spread predicting Death would look like. Do you remember which cards came up in the spreads?
Uh oh, you might be starting a topic here with that question, LOL}):laugh::laugh:
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| TemperanceAngel |
24 Feb 2005 |
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I have seen signs of people dying in the World card.
Same here, but mostly seen it with The Fool card :)
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| paradoxx |
25 Feb 2005 |
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Different Decks will have different reactions. The Tarot Nova shows a winged skull crested hourglass with moths fluttering about and is rather harmless, but teh 5 of swords shows two humanoid mice with one stabbing the other (of mice and men) with more negativite perceptions than death.
While the Standard waite designs by Pamela Smith show a group of people awaiting the arrival of death on horseback. The little girl looks like she is waiting for the kiss of death while the King has already fallen. The Priest is preaching or speaking of/to death as if it means something and the other figure kneels before the allmighty end.
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| mnemosyne7 |
25 Feb 2005 |
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Interesting thread. I actually had to "learn" that others have a very different reaction to the death card than I do. I grew up in the back of a funeral home - Dad was a funeral director and mortician - and death was just one more piece of the life process. Most death cards don't disturb me at all. Though I do have to remember that the title or images alone might disturb the querent if s/he is not familiar with the concept of Tarot.
If anything, I've had to learn to be more sympathetic when it comes to Death. My natural tendency is to say, "So, it's cataclysmic change. So get over it."
Mnem
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| psychic sue |
25 Feb 2005 |
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I've often wondered what a spread predicting Death would look like. Do you remember which cards came up in the spreads?
Gosh Wandking, you got me wracking my brain now!
Both times I used the celtic cross spread, and on both occasions I used the Swiss IJJ deck.
The first occasion was some 15 years ago, so it's hard to remember, but I think the 5 of cups was the card that got me going down that road, in the near future position. It was one of those occasions where my intuition kicked in and I clearly saw the death of this person and the grief of his partner (the querant). I think I said something along the lines of "your partner may be going on a journey/business trip in the near future and you will miss him greatly". After the man had died, his wife told me, "as soon as you said that, I thought "he's going to die", so she picked up the vibe too. She didn't say anything at the time of the reading.
2nd occasion was about 6 years ago. Hanged man was in the outcome position - other cards told of terrible money worries and bankruptcy. Again, it was intuitive and I saw the querant's husband's suicide. I just said "you need to talk these worries through with your husband, try and shoulder some of the burden as he is feeling under enormous pressure" but I sort of knew that whatever she did, he was going to die. I was told by a mutual friend about 18 months later that she had walked in and found him. He'd hanged himself. It was a terrible ordeal for her.
I went through a bad phase afterwards - I was saying to my guides - "I dont want to ever pick up on that sort of thing again", and I stopped reading for a while. I just thought "what was the point of showing me that? there was nothing I could do". After a while though, I realised that 99% of my readings actually helped people, so I started again. I haven't seen a death since then, and I mentally say to my guides "please don't show me anyones death in these cards" before I begin. I don't know if that makes any difference, but it makes me feel better!
On both occasions, it wasn't the spread that told me of the deaths, it was my intuition. I don't know if other's have had similar experiences?
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| Kara |
25 Feb 2005 |
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Nothing that 'bad', broken legs and such yes, and even that not specifically as in he will have a broken leg; but along the lines of someone being laid up with illness, and hindered in their mobility. Afterwards it turned out to be a broken leg. That must have been really very horrible for you!:(
xoxo
Kara
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| WalesWoman |
27 Feb 2005 |
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Ok this is the spread I drew two days before my freind died. 6 Swords 2 Shields and 8 Cups with Legends. 6 Swords the boat crossing the water, with a torch to light the way 2 Shields (pents) is two people standing on a bridge between the forest on one side and castle walls on the other, with a turbulent stream flowing beneath them and the 8 Cups is an empty chapel, a black hand reaches in and extiguishes the candle on an unadorned alter, the rider and his horse both rear back in fear. Don't know why but I felt that the 2 Shields was telling me two days and he did die two days later.
While I was waiting for the plane to come so I could see him one last time, I drew 7 Swords Rx, 6 Cups Rx and Fool. Couldn't decide if was about him or the problems I was having getting there.
When I got these I wasn't sure if I'd get there in time, that perhaps he had already taken that leap, he was still fighting but losing the battle, the gathering of family and freinds under duress and then he did take that leap in to the unknown, the next morning.
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| mnemosyne7 |
28 Feb 2005 |
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Hi Paradoxx,
I LOVE that card. It's not that Death is warm and fuzzy for me ... it's just that I don't feel like it's the worst thing that could happen in some cases. And nobody gets out of here alive, so we might as well learn to deal with it.
I really don't mean to sound harsh about it, and I don't think any of my clients would ever say I'm not a gentle reader for the most part. What my shadow self is thinking, and how I actually conduct a reading can be quite different in manner, if not in substance.
Does that make sense?
Mnemosyne
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| paradoxx |
28 Feb 2005 |
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yes, especially given that the 'shadow of death' is actually an important part of that Deck's death card.
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The The death card & Pavlov's dog. thread was originally posted on 23 Feb 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.
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