The Lessons Continue to Flow....

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 18 Feb 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Satori	18 Feb 2005
She is 32 years old and has six boys. Three of them live with her first husband, the other three are with her and her current husband. Someday, she want all her kids back. She came in for a reading about, yup, leaving her husband. It would mean a geographical change. She had no money, everything was in her husband's name. Her friend recommended me, and she also had a marital problem. Three cards into the reading I was telling her she had unfinished business with her husband, that the divorce didn't seem imminent. The Death card came up (VisionQuest Tarot) which in VQ is Transformation, so it seemed like the relationship was changing, but ending...the surrounding cards didn't support that. They were about growth, about partnership... As I was telling her this she changed. She became aggressive. She folded into herself and spat at me, "I told my friend, that if any reader ever told me to stay with him, that it wasn't over, I'd grab her by the throat!" She sat glaring at me. At this moment the energy in the room just...shifted. It changed. I felt like I was a step out of time. If you can believe it I turned over several more cards. From that point on she got the reading she wanted. Every card supported divorce. Every card was a positive statement for her about her life on her own. The reading positively sang with joy for her leaving her husband, and showed her doing some energy healing work some time in the future, just what she wanted to do. (on top of doing psychic readings or palmistry for people!!! Not in the cards, info from out of her mouth.) She walked out a happy customer and shelled out $50 bucks for the reading. Hardest money I ever took, don't think I'd do it again....but that is for later in the thread. I have very definite ideas about what happened. Now I throw it out to you. What do you think happened here. What was I being shown? What lessons were here to be learned. I bet we find a BUNDLE!!!

Imagemaker	18 Feb 2005
Wow, this is fascinating. That energy shift sounds like it was to protect YOU with "give her what she wants and get her out of here." Ve-ery interesting that you didn't need to reshuffle for the shift cards to appear. Looking forward to other reactions!

tarotbear	18 Feb 2005
I wonder if the cards knew this ahead of time (did she shuffle herself?) and the first reading is, indeed, the true reading. The remaining cards were put into place because they knew it would be the answer SHE wanted and get her yucky energy away from you! Interesting about the energy shift you felt. What was it like? Positive or negative? Or was it just that pathways were opened and something stepped in ~ for your protection? If she comes back - raise your fees! LOL!

WalesWoman	18 Feb 2005
Was one of the first three cards 2 Wands by chance??? Just wondering, since it sounded very possible. Ok that can mean a partnership, but also an empty marriage, not living up to expectations, feeling too confined,etc. But a thought just popped into my head...not psychic, just from personal experience when I was a young mom with three little ones and wanting out...that perhaps she has an outside interest happening with someone else and wants the Tarot to justify leaving her present husband. I'm thinking it takes a lot of courage and oompa to leave someone when you have no resources at all, but...if there is someone that can be there for you, even if only emotionally, it's easier to do that. I'll bet that there is someone already lined up for hubby #3! So maybe if that is the case that is why the first three cards weren't seemingly about divorce because she was thinking about this other. I'm really stretching the limits here, but that's just what it feels like to me.

ncefafn	18 Feb 2005
This lady sounds scary. I'm curious -- what vibes did you get off her before starting the reading?

firemaiden	18 Feb 2005
Well, to play devil's advocate, for sake of argument, one question that comes to mind is "why does she want to leave him", is it an abusive relationship? is she being beaten? is she desperate? If she is an impossible woman, and the men, and children are hapless victims of her whims, it would seem wrong to encourage divorce without sending her to do some self-work. But... what if she were in an untenable situation, terrible for the children as well? Wouldn't you urge her to leave as soon as possible? As for the death card, yes, transformation, still, even in this light, I might have seen that card as referring to divorce. I think some of the questions this situation raises are: Should we read the people? or read the cards? Do we get more accurate readings with or without being "assailed" with the client's energy? And finally: is accuracy important? or do the cards really have some other role, like... fostering dialogue? It sounds like she desperately wanted to talk about her situation and the reasons for wanting divorce, and wanted some kind of divine approval. My curiousity is piqued to know why she feels she needs to leave. I might have wanted to explore the "why" of it more with her in the reading.

Satori	18 Feb 2005
Hi folks, She was very high energy. Thin, pretty nicely dressed, but just jeans, leather belt, nice sweater, a henley type shirt. Long light brown hair, with neat bangs and hair pulled back into a pony on top, the rest of the hair loose. The earrings were a tip-off. Major totem energy: dragonfly. I love dragonflies, btw, and she may not typify dragonfly, but she was a real nervous talker, but the kind that comes off totally grounded and strong. It isn't until you sit with her for a while that the underlying aggressiveness comes thru, as you may have guessed, fear. First card was a jumper: 0 Clown This woman was not your typical Clown. Joy did not suffuse her life. She was upbeat and high energy, but weird little things would creep in. She said of meditation, when asked if she practiced it: "Well, if I get interrupted by the kids when I'm meditating, I just want to pound them, ya' know? I just get crazy mad, I want to just rip their throats out, I get so angry. I mean, I really want to hurt them. So it is easier to just not do it and not go there." Okay, don't meditate, please! Keep those kids safe. So even early on in the reading, see the Clown/Fool I kept thinking, she wants to ditch, she is already gone, just hasn't left yet. I also felt the wolf/coyote in the way back howling, was perhaps her husband, calling to her, in his way, but she does not hear him. She repeatedly told me she loved him very much, was very much in love with him, but wanted out. First card that I pulled after she cut the deck about ten times (it is the way I have people shuffle, to just do as many cuts as they want) Two of water-Love then XVIII Transformation then Seven of Water-Excess Now in this card two bowls are unbroken, five are broken. So much of the inner life of these people has been broken, they don't have much left, but they still both stand at the top of the card, whole and unbroken. So the Two of Water/love then Transformation/Death seemed to me they were the real deal, they were a real couple, and now they are transforming, but not dead yet. She had on her walking boots, but he was calling to her. And she had not told him she wanted out; he knew she did according to her, but she had never talked to him. He sounded like a piece of work, but it seemed she hadn't given him fair warning or a chance to make it right..... Part of what I try to do is to make sure I don't immediately sympathise with the woman just because she is sitting there. I also felt that she was just sick of dealing with him so rather than try to seek help/counseling she was going to leave the marriage. Not all men are pigs, right? :) So that is the defense of my reading, the first part of it anyway. I can't remember all of it, but she had two Aces, the Hermit came up for the husband, and I remember the 4 of Air/Swords as the last card-Contemplation. Before arriving to read I had prayed in the car, calling in my Angels, and placing Archangel Michael in front of me to protect me, shield me, but to cut a path thru the BS so that I would read well and deliver good, honest information. The energy shift was just that for me. A shift, a change. I think that the reading was now being filtered to me thru a different lens. Rather than see opportunities for them to grow together, because the 8 of Pents came up, in VQ Eight of Earth, Inner Order, I was seeing her growing away and alone. Where once I might have seen couple energies transforming and healing now I saw her healing and moving away from the marriage. And yes, I think it was for my own protection. Because she no longer wanted her reading. She wanted what she wanted. A friend said something interesting. She asked if I asked if people were willing to hear what the cards had to say. And then she asked me to put in my own words and ask her what I might ask a client. This is what I came up with: "Tarot is interesting because you don't always get the answers you want to hear. You get a kind of Truth that applies to you and your situation. Are you willing to hear whatever it is the Tarot wants to tell you?" This just might be the most important thing I say to future clients.

Satori	18 Feb 2005
HI FM, No danger from him. She talked and talked the whole reading. In fact, I said very little. I didn't even tell her about all the cards in their entirety. She didn't want to hear it. She really didn't. Many times I had to cut her off so that I could ask her a question, because she was just ranting. She held enormous anger. Which was hard to ignore, her and the talking and then look at the cards. This was one of the times not one card needed to be turned. The husband didn't want to watch the kids anymore. He didn't want to help her anymore. He had told her the house and land was his when they married and she had agreed to this, even tho they bought it as a couple. He was no innocent, no prize. He sounded immature in fact. Hey, maybe I called it wrong at the beginning and the energy shift happened to create space for the truth to roll. I'm open to that. But I kept feeling that she was taking the easy way out. They had unfinished business together. And WalesWoman, as we were walking down the stairs to leave, she asked if I had seen a man she used to know, from her college days, someone she wanted to reconnect with, someone she thought she could love.

Umbrae	18 Feb 2005
I’ve often said the Fool is one of the darker cards in the deck. Folks steeped in RWS imagery don’t get it… He’s harmless, about to step off… But in the older decks he’s on the road, perhaps at a crossroads (that moment of balance – the moment of….the moment… That’s your clue to the whole reading. When the Trickster (Loki, Yehl, Coyote, Hermes, Krishna, Legba come to visit your home – it’s not going to necessarily be a pleasant sleepover. The Fool lives on the spirit road between the living and the dead, a messenger of the gods, and a guide for the dead; he is the boundary crosser and the boundary creator, clown, keeper of the gates, ferryman, lord of apples, lord of the other-world, voracious, cunning, sly, wise, and lord of those in-between-gray-places; he does not live near the hearth. If he were the innocent or the idiot as modern interpretive theory tells us, he would not have been pictured on the road. He is the boundary crosser and mover; he alters internal social distinctions. Le Mat is the spot between heaven and earth, the moment the sun reverses itself; he creates a distance only he can span. He sets others at odds, or places boundary markers in new an unusual places…what will happen when the fool, gets to the cliff? The destroyer and the creator; neither good nor evil yet both…He is Chaos… The Fool can be one of the darker cards in the deck...and was a key to the rest of the reading (especially as a jumper).

firemaiden	18 Feb 2005
I see it, Elf (I was just playing devil's advocate anyway). (She sounds like a dominating, toxic person with no sense of personal responsibility).

jumptothemoonyea	18 Feb 2005
positive or negative energy... she needs help...

Satori	18 Feb 2005
Yes, she does need help. Funny thing is she doesn't think she needs help. My intent for posting was to talk about the shift in the room after she made a threatening comment towards me. If you met this woman she would come off as fairly stable looking. She had a rough and tough kind of attitude but it seemed to be a deflective posture. I think she was scared. She wanted a way out of her situation, she really wanted permission to leave her husband, and she wanted me to give it to her. She also chose four Virtue cards from the Mermaids and Dolphins deck. they were about being supported by the Universe, Can't remember them all. She really keyed into them and I used them as a way of telling her that she was okay to do what ever she felt she should do. she has the messages from Fairies deck, and I think she was going to be using it more. She has a very good support system. Problem is she convinced her Mom and sister to move to her new state...and they don't know she wants to be back here! Like I said, the reading ended well, she was happy with it, but I just kept wondering what that shift was about. What did it signal? Did it signal me on track or on a new track....

Satori	18 Feb 2005
Umbrae wrote: I’ve often said the Fool is one of the darker cards in the deck. Folks steeped in RWS imagery don’t get it… He’s harmless, about to step off… But in the older decks he’s on the road, perhaps at a crossroads (that moment of balance – the moment of….the moment… That’s your clue to the whole reading. When the Trickster (Loki, Yehl, Coyote, Hermes, Krishna, Legba come to visit your home – it’s not going to necessarily be a pleasant sleepover. The Fool lives on the spirit road between the living and the dead, a messenger of the gods, and a guide for the dead; he is the boundary crosser and the boundary creator, clown, keeper of the gates, ferryman, lord of apples, lord of the other-world, voracious, cunning, sly, wise, and lord of those in-between-gray-places; he does not live near the hearth. If he were the innocent or the idiot as modern interpretive theory tells us, he would not have been pictured on the road. He is the boundary crosser and mover; he alters internal social distinctions. Le Mat is the spot between heaven and earth, the moment the sun reverses itself; he creates a distance only he can span. He sets others at odds, or places boundary markers in new an unusual places…what will happen when the fool, gets to the cliff? The destroyer and the creator; neither good nor evil yet both…He is Chaos… The Fool can be one of the darker cards in the deck...and was a key to the rest of the reading (especially as a jumper). Hmmm. yes especially as a jumper. I kept thinking that the Clown card was somehow a crucial part of the reading. He jumped out early in the shuffle, like right as she was settled and turning to face me. And flash, out of the deck drops the Clown. This Clown disturbs me for another reason too. He has black ribbons at each of his joints... knees, wrists and oddly, his neck. Somewhere in the back of my mind I seem to remember that cutting someone up at the joints and leaving them for dead prevented them from crossing over to the Other Side. That the spirit couldn't re-enter the body and make the crossing, leaving them to wander in a kind of hideous inbetween place. They wouldn't be a nice spirit at all. I think this is of Native American Indian origin...but I don't remember specifically. So this Clown card always bothers me. In the LWB---sorry Umbrae---it talks about this Clown as light-hearted and beautiful. I just don't see it. I find him very disturbing, and I had no knowledge of you seeing Le Mat as darker. So seeing him pop out of the deck made me very uneasy. But I haven't decided what this Clown card says to me yet...just that somethin' ain't right. I think that I lost focus when she got threatening. I didn't help her sort out the reading, what she really wanted to take away. She took away the feeling of leaving sooner rather than later. But it seems now to be an even more ill-fated journey for her than before. I even said to her that the bad news was that she might be leaving sooner rather than later...and she loved that. She said she wanted more bad new like that. I felt like she was a Lemming. And RWS symbolism or not, the edge of the cliff looked damned inviting.

Moongold	18 Feb 2005
Maybe your reading was just a part of process for her. We all go through stages in coming to grips with difficult situations...... the denial, anger, bargaining, grief cycles. She may have been angry, fearful whatever but that is not all she is. Sometimes people just process things externally rather than internally - that is just the way they are. You are a channel, not a repository of truth, freedom and the American way :). You may have sown a seed, cleared something for her in some way and perhaps next time it might be different. Any one dealing with the public must expect these situations from time to time. Possibly as Tarot readers we are more vulnerable for obvious reasons. You sound as though you handled it really well and the next time it happens perhaps it will be easier for you to manage internally. firemaiden wrote: Should we read the people? or read the cards? I think we have to read both. This situation is not unlike a situation I might come across in my daily work when I may be speaking with the parents of a drug-using young man who may take some time to see that the situation may require different approaches than the ones they have used to date. Practical evidence suggests that. Son is not going to get up if they take all his meals to tbe bed room ... highly unlikely anyway. It's a process for all of us and therein lies the art.

ncefafn	18 Feb 2005
elf wrote: Like I said, the reading ended well, she was happy with it, but I just kept wondering what that shift was about. What did it signal? Did it signal me on track or on a new track.... Well, ultimately, you're the only one who can say what the shift meant, since you're the only one of us who was actually there. Maybe . . . you could do a reading on it. :) Kim

firemaiden	19 Feb 2005
Maybe we should all do one for her right here? Who will choose the cards?

tarotbear	19 Feb 2005
elf wrote: . This is what I came up with: "Tarot is interesting because you don't always get the answers you want to hear. You get a kind of Truth that applies to you and your situation. Are you willing to hear whatever it is the Tarot wants to tell you?" This just might be the most important thing I say to future clients. Can I borrow this quote? I like it very much. Sure beats the hell out of 'For Entertainment Purposes Only' ! LOL!

Moongold	19 Feb 2005
Yes I like it too but it does require quite a lot of trust on behalf of the querent. Unless you know the person already you have a few seconds to establish that trust. Elf would have had no difficulties there. I did two live readings this afternoon between the last time I posted and now. I was sitting in the park not far from where I live playing with my RWS. It has been a beautiful day, but a little windy. A middle aged couple came along and we began to talk. One thing led to another and the next minute I was reading for them - using the CC This was the first spread that I ever really learned and one I still love despite all the criticisms you hear of it. :) It was a warm lighted hearted experience for the first two readings and then a serious question came. I was able to work with it. The whole experience was an hour and a half with much discussion and warmth. They were interested in where the meaning came from. The man was a teacher and he wanted to know whether he was going to be able to last out the year. I guess this is off the point but there is something about trust and relationship in it. And they were gentle and willing to listen- around my own age. I was conscious all the time of them as people and there was no stress. I'm sharing here because I got a real buzz out of it. It was wonderful. I admire elf and others who do this so regularly. This afternoon has made me more motivated to try to do more. If I was to have a difficult client, elf, to be honest, I 'm not sure how I would respond. Probably the same way as if a similar situation occurred at work. I'm just not sure. Will have to wait and see :).

Satori	19 Feb 2005
firemaiden wrote: Maybe we should all do one for her right here? Who will choose the cards? Looks like it falls to you! This ought to be interesting.

Satori	19 Feb 2005
tarotbear wrote: Can I borrow this quote? I like it very much. Sure beats the hell out of 'For Entertainment Purposes Only' ! LOL! Hi there tarotbear, Sure you can use the quote. Since I posted one things plagues me about it. It presupposes that the reader can accurately translate Tarot's Truths. Now I know that we do that every time we sit across from a stranger, but seeing that quote written out and actually thinking about saying it gives me a stomach ache. I might have to add the rider, "to the best of my ability." This is one of the things I've been able to do fairly well since beginning reading. I really try to just give up any doubts to the Universe. I know that for the time I sat across from the client I really did my best to perceive accurately what the message for them is. The problem does lie in whether they can receive it. And sometimes for us, if we can articulate it. So this is where I went a little wrong with the reading I talk about here. Because saying to someone, "Gee this reading doesn't seem to be going where you want it to go. Should we keep going??" Is a viable option. You know it occurs to me that when she said what she said, she wasn't threatening me so much as she was threatening the Tarot!!! She threw down the gauntlet to the Tarot...telling it she didn't accept the outcome/situation as I was beginning to tell it. So as the Clown she was sidestepping the path about to be opened before her. and neither of us now knows what the reading she might have gotten is!

Satori	19 Feb 2005
Moongold, you are a very good reader, as you know;), and it doesn't surprise me in the least that you had such a good experience. It is a little scary tho. You want to do well for the client, you want excellent information to come up. So when someone who doesn't know you sits there trustingly looking at you to answer a big question, it is transformational. I really understand now why Umbrae is so vehement about getting out and reading for others. It is the real deal. And I admit that when I say things that are off the wall, that I might have filtered in the early days of reading, that is when my hits are the best!!! Congratulations for taking this step Moongold.

Alta	19 Feb 2005
about the energy/space shift. Hi elf, I too have experienced those, it is almost like shifting in time and space. Everything just moves, even your body seems subtly moved. And, like you, this almost always happens in the presence of strong emotion, either mine or someone else's. Sometimes I look around, half amused, wondering if it is like Star Trek where they wind up in alternate realities and don't realize it. I should write notes to myself. :) I very humbly offer a thought. Her energy did alter things and changed the outcome, first for her and then for you as reader. I think a doorway closed, because your first reading expressed things she then rejected once seen. The future changed in that instant. imo of course, but I have experienced this several times. Marion

tmgrl2	19 Feb 2005
Very interesting thread, elf....thank you for sharing all of this... I have read it through and through...since I, too, will learn from your experience. Moongold said "process" and firemaiden say "fostering dialogue" and exploring more the "why".....sometimes when people are asked to look at "why" they come up with something that has been lurking beneath the surface..... ....and when "dialogue" begins, somewhere along the way, out pops something quite important. It's not quite the same, but when I go to a professional conference and I find that I am spending six hours hearing what I already know and then I listen to my peers grumbling about this....I remind them of the one or two REALLY new or helpful things I learned that I can put into practice. To me, that is what I expect when I go to a conference. Some of those single "gems" I have gotten over the years have transformed some of what I did with my own clients....and the conference presenter didn't know it. (Although, I have at times taken the time to send a note or an e-mail thanking the presenter for that which was so helpful to me in my work.) Sure, there are mind-blowing conferences where I go and hear all the latest stuff...and everyone is bubbling about how marvelous it was to FINALLY have a worthwhile conference. But...the same goes for a Tarot reading. I have said this before. When I go for a reading, online or live, if I walk away and I can focus on ONE piece of guidance or information that I know is something I can carry out and know will be helpful (even if it may be hard to do) I feel that I am another step ahead. My reader doesn't need to know what I finally got, (since sometimes, it's days or weeks later that the message hits me).... What is important is that I DID get something and what the reader feels about the reading belongs to the reader. If they are like you, elf, they will be doing their best with love and telling you what they see. If I feel a reader is harmful or toxic or negative or predictive of horrible events... I certainly don't go back and I certainly won't recommend them to anyone else. A reading, though, no matter how we FEEL when it is over, is just a snapshot in time...part of a much larger process that is going on. People with a host of issues such as this woman has, often spend years in counseling or in seeking answers and in walking their way into solutions. So, a single reading, then still boils down to Doing the very best we can with love in that moment to read what we see and to create, hopefully, another step toward understanding....a STEP.... When I read Umbrae's new addition to The Process last night he touched on what I am coming more and more to believe....lately when I read, I find less and less that I need feedback from the sitter....I am talking about the kind we seek when we are through with the reading. The interactive process is the miracle that goes on and perhaps both sitter and reader will never know what impact that moment in time/space had on both sitter and reader. You are a loving, caring person, elf....and you are stepping into the arena of reading live...That is a whole different ballgame from reading online and being able to sneak some peaks at books or materials during the reading. I believe we get what we need during the event and if we go forward with kindness and love..(and that doesn't mean we don't say things that can be difficult to hear...it DOES) the outcome can be a loving guidance for that person, whether or not we or they know it in that snapshot of a reading. I have said many things to sitters that are not sugar-coated.....about people causing some of their own pain, or about needing to let go of things or about how to move forward taking beginning steps that can be horrendously difficult. This kind of discussion is so important because what you experienced happened in "realtime" with a person sitting there who, at least, was quite threatening. Well done. And... You learned And so did I. As are many others here at AT as well. Bless you, terri And Umbrae...I love your posts on The Fool...I have printed this one out as I have others...Also, the threads we have at AT on Le Mat/The Fool have certainly broadened my concept of this Trump.

firemaiden	19 Feb 2005
elf wrote: Like I said, the reading ended well, she was happy with it, but I just kept wondering what that shift was about. What did it signal? Did it signal me on track or on a new track.... ncefafn wrote: Well, ultimately, you're the only one who can say what the shift meant, since you're the only one of us who was actually there. Maybe . . . you could do a reading on it. :) Kim So.. shall we folks? I'll draw cards? Each person who wants to shall offer an interp... 1 – issue - what is the shift about => The Moon 2 – the veil - what is hidden => Temperance 3 – what is to be learned => 6 of swords 4 - what new place does the shift take you to => Queen of Cups 5 - Advice => The Tower hmmmm - the Tower as advice?

tarotbear	19 Feb 2005
elf wrote: Since I posted one things plagues me about it. It presupposes that the reader can accurately translate Tarot's Truths. Now I know that we do that every time we sit across from a stranger, but seeing that quote written out and actually thinking about saying it gives me a stomach ache. I might have to add the rider, "to the best of my ability." Try saying it with a fake Jamacan accent and wearing a lot of jewelry! No - I know where you are coming from. However, being the reader puts you in that position, like it or not, truthful or not. People come to you with a question and are accepting the fact they will get an answer - even if it is not the answer they seek - or want. You have no way to know this ahead of time and can't prepare for it's happening. Being the reader automaticaly tells them that you are the EXPERT, whether that is true in your mind or not. But I understand what you are saying - you don't want to set yourself on a pedastal as the 'all-knowing, all-seeing Madame Gizmo' because it will come back to bite your butt! However - the querent has already done this for you before they walked in. You are seeing it more as a 'chopping block' than a pedastal.

Umbrae	19 Feb 2005
I have two questions I love to ask. Many don’t bother to stop and ponder them, many think they have… Why do you read tarot (for others)? Why do they come to you? Tarotbear touched on question two here… We should (have to) think long and hard before we head out into the public (in person or via internet). Objectively and subjectively. Does not matter who you are or who you think you are – people will have expectations. During a reading you will either meet or fail to meet their expectations. And you’d better have a clue as to what those expectations are. Further, you may find that their expectations of you and your own self knowledge tell you that you are wrong for the job, you will never meet expectations, well now you have a duty… I’ll say it again…buying a deck, memorizing meanings from a stack of books that you’ve read from cover to cover does not make you a tarot reader. If you want to get serious… Why do you read tarot (for others)? Why do they come to you? Cuz this is very serious business… clue: any ego-based answers are wrong

ncefafn	19 Feb 2005
Umbrae wrote: Why do you read tarot (for others)? Does anyone ever start out with the right answer to this question? I started out reading Tarot, period, for the same reason I used to pry tiles loose from the hearth when I was a little girl. I wanted to know the unseen, unspoken truth. I wanted to know what was back there. I started out reading Tarot for others because I am a horrible client. Both are ego-based answers, and therefore I am damned to eternal hellfire. Now, I read for others because I am wandering in the desert, and I understand that others are wandering in their own deserts. Perhaps if I give some guidance, I will receive some from somewhere in return. And again, we return to my ego. So it looks like I will be wandering in this desert until the end of time. I am not Christ. That is my unpardonable sin. Others come to me for readings because they are looking for answers from God. At least I have realized I am not God and I can't give them answers. I can just hold their hand and tell them what I think. I hope to be able to do it with a modicum of compassion and understanding. Many times I fall short. Perhaps every reading should be preceded with the Penitential Rite: I confess to Almighty God that I have sinned through my own fault; in my thoughts and in my words; in what I have done and in what I have failed to do. And I ask the Blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

Satori	19 Feb 2005
I think I've answered why I read for others in another thread, but I'm being facetious because I think that the answer changes as I change. Why they come to me is another question. They come to me because a call goes out in the Universe saying she might be listening. She might be listening so go there and see... See if the whispers on the wind are being heard tonight, heard true or even half heard are better than not heard at all.....

Moongold	19 Feb 2005
Kim ~ I was very moved by your post but don't want to misunderstand it. You'd be more than aware of the so-called prayer of St. Francis? It was never found in any of his writings so the authorship is uncertain. I have only quoted it in part. ....for it is in giving that we receive; it is in pardoning that we are pardoned; and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. I've always loved this prayer because it is beyond ego. I can hear some people wincing over the ether already but the sentiments have resonance with me. It makes whatever I do, when I'm conscious of this, beyond ego despite all my human failings. I always say this or something like it before I read because the whole thing is about being a channel. There is no point in doing it otherwise - for me anyway. We are given gifts to use wisely. My own alternately mad and joyful human experience can add to the experience for the Querent. That is why I work in my profession. Doing those impromptu readings yesterday, I felt completely happy. Those two wanderers and I were engaged in the exploration of something quite beautiful and mysterious. The connection with them over that old wooden table was something else, and it may have been so even if it had not been so happy. I shall go for my walk now and drip these sentiments over the grey concrete of Richmond :D.

contradiction	19 Feb 2005
terri wrote: So, a single reading, then still boils down to Doing the very best we can with love in that moment to read what we see and to create, hopefully, another step toward understanding....a STEP.... When I read Umbrae's new addition to The Process last night he touched on what I am coming more and more to believe....lately when I read, I find less and less that I need feedback from the sitter....I am talking about the kind we seek when we are through with the reading. The interactive process is the miracle that goes on and perhaps both sitter and reader will never know what impact that moment in time/space had on both sitter and reader. terri, thank you very much for these comments in particular. sometimes when we read often, we tend to get complacaint and forget this. i remember when reading always made me feel this way. it still does at times, but then sometimes i am just reading. this thread and the readings at the "green gargoyle", and the thread associated with that, especially the post (i believe it was by firemaden, i can't find the thread right now), about doing a double-blind reading, in the context of aliens, and how it opened her up to the cards, is a double slap up-side my head to wake up, and remember why i started reading. i thank all of you, and i am sure those i read for in the future will thank you.

contrascarpe	19 Feb 2005
elf - The first thing I thought of while reading your initial post was "thank goodness you got her, and I didn't". If it had been me, I think I would have ended the reading right there and told her nicely that if she was ready for an honest reading, I am the one to do it. If you can't live with what I am about to say, then save your money for a marriage counselor or a reader who will tell you what you want to hear. Laura was reading the three pivotal cards to me and my initial reaction was the same as yours - no divorce in the cards UNLESS she already has another man to go to. The two of chalices to me means love, if she is leaving him for another, or companionship, if she stays. She is fooling herself (seven of chalices) if she thinks a change is good for her at this stage. I have had two very difficult people I have read for so far. One was like yours - they didn't like what I had to say (almost the same circumstances) but she was more calm than yours. Actually it happened on my first day on the job. I told her she had the option of ending the reading right then if she didn't like what I said. She didn't like it in the end, but she paid. The second one was a bipolar gentleman who "heard voices". When I wasn't telling him what he wanted to hear, he became agitated and violent. It was the first time I remember fearing for my safety. I calmly told him that I was not the reader he was looking for, apologized, and told him he didn't have to pay. Next time though, I plan on charging him double - once for him and once for his voices :) Dan

Gardener	19 Feb 2005
Firemaiden's cards for elf: 1 – issue - what is the shift about => The Moon 2 – the veil - what is hidden => Temperance 3 – what is to be learned => 6 of swords 4 - what new place does the shift take you to => Queen of Cups 5 - Advice => The Tower Shall I be the first to take a stab at this? The Moon, representing what is hidden and not to be wholly known, stands in for everything we are exploring in this thread, the mysterious side of Tarot, the times when it does more than simply allow us to be less expensive psychiatrists to our so-trusting clients. When the message is special and somewhat confusing and full of nuance that maybe the client understands, we sure hope so because we know we aren't getting the whole picture. The moonlight is itself a thing of distortions, the veil behind which Temperance lurked. Here Temperance is the soothing music that calmed the wild beast of a client. Elf needed help, her client was threatening violence and elf's preference was not to try out her new kung fu skills. So the Mystery responded with this shift in energy, which provided much needed new cards (the same that would have been there before? I don't think so, I think Tarot chose these cards to provide the soothing balm to the woman's mad energy). When I think Six of Swords I think "Journey" as in, away from the scary situation! Elf learned, I think, that there was no personal value to be gained from staying in the situation as it first presented itself. Moongold, now Moongold has a much harder job, because she stays with her clients through a longer time period, and probably through a great deal of anger. Hence her very wise comments about needing to protect oneself, internally, from the wild emotions of the client. I understand this is something therapists are good at, but it's a skill that some of us are slow to learn. Many of us who have been drawn to the cards find ourselves naturally drawn to feel as our clients feel. Empathy, taking their emotions too deeply inside ourselves. Lesson to learn? Keep that distance! Which is another way of saying, be kind to yourself, keep your heart for your own self and the ones you love. Elf does not need to experience the emotions of every client. A true Queen of Cups is not "a loving person" in some abstract saintly way, but someone who values the many sides of love. Elf can have some compassion for her client, but needs to love herself more. How, firemaiden asks, can the Tower be in a position of advice? In this case I think it's more of a warning! The clients come with their trust so full and open, and the price we pay, as readers, is the exposure to their pain. When we get to close to them, it can hurt. We are advised to keep that distance and that self-love, in order that we be able to continue reading, even after we get clients eager to spew Tower-energy all over our silk scarf covered tables. I'm glad it worked out so positively for you, elf.

tmgrl2	19 Feb 2005
Good points, Dan. I'm not sure how I would or will handle such an encounter. These situations must be quite difficult. I haven't read enough to have had such a difficult situation come into my space. No doubt, it will happen some day. Contradiction....I say those things because I, too, even though I am new, want to always remember "why I read." I think that that anything we do for a long time often becomes more "automatic," and we have to remember that for our sitter, it isn't something they do very often. I have experienced the same thing with my counseling in my professional work. I often had to remember that perhaps I was the first person to tell a family about a particular problem with someone they love.....or the first non-doctor to help them understand why a loved one can't speak as a result of what has happened to the brain...or to the nerves and/ or muscles that affect speech.... I have had families I have worked with become quite adversarial or angry and I may be the nearest person to receive their reactions. I always try to remember that almost all of these feelings boil down to fear of some sort. I also try not to "own" something that isn't mine. That helps a lot. That's why it's good from time to time to have these discussions about difficult clients and reading situations.......it helps all of us remember why we read. terri

contrascarpe	19 Feb 2005
tmgrl2 wrote: That's why it's good from time to time to have these discussions about difficult clients and reading situations.......it helps all of us remember why we read. terri Hi Terri, Yes, the diversity makes things interesting. Everytime I read I find out something new - not only about Tarot and the Seeker, but about myself. You get a mix of mundane and eccentric, and it is almost always fun to see how people react when you start hitting on something for them. Of course, the biggest rush is when you go out on a limb and say something really out there, and find out you are dead on. One example of this was when I read for a middle-aged gent who was giving me body chemistry that he didn't think I was on the up-and-up. I threw caution to the wind and told him I saw his mother recently died, but that it had been a long illness and that even though sad, it was a blessing. The change in his face was priceless - turns out I was totally right on and I had him in the palm of my hands the rest of the way. Funny thing is, I could then have spent the next half hour talking gibberish and he wouldn't have known the difference. Dan

Moongold	19 Feb 2005
Quote: How, firemaiden asks, can the Tower be in a position of advice? In this case I think it's more of a warning! The clients come with their trust so full and open, and the price we pay, as readers, is the exposure to their pain. When we get to close to them, it can hurt. We are advised to keep that distance and that self-love, in order that we be able to continue reading, even after we get clients eager to spew Tower-energy all over our silk scarf covered tables. Your whole interpretation is beautiful, Gardener. The Tower as advice? Towers will happen but we need to be far enough away to be out of danger. This really bears thinking about and practice too. In my work we are trained to pick up the signs of stress and volatility and do everything consciously and unconsciously to prevent it or minmize it. This morning I woke up thinking that for professional Tarot readers it might be worth doing a short course on managing and preventing aggression just as a protection for those who do not have this training as part of what they do in everyday life. As a worker in human services one of the hardest things I had to learn to deal with was coping with projections. Being who I am and a Pisces Moon into the bargain, I soaked them up like the Wettex Kid. Having some understanding of this stuff can help immeasurably in working with people. This is a sensitive topic because people don't want to see Tarot "professionalized", whatever that means to them. And some people don't like to think that they may not yet have all that it takes to manage difficult situations. I'm thinking of people who do a lot of reading, and for money, it might be worthwhile to get some extra training to manage uncertain situations. Projections are difficult. Just knowing about them can help. Vicarious traumatization is another difficult one and very common. Unless we know how to detach we can be so affected by someones else's pain. In my early days as a telephone counsellor on nights I wandered around in a supermarket close to tears after hearing a difficult story. Couldn't see a thing on the shelves and walked out with three boxes of tuna that I didn't need LOL. Thanks Gardener - a great reading, I forgot! Lawyers are pretty good at looking after themselves as well. :)

firemaiden	19 Feb 2005
Gardner I'm so glad finally someone took up the cards :) 1 – issue - what is the shift about => The Moon 2 – the veil - what is hidden => Temperance 3 – what is to be learned => 6 of swords 4 - what new place does the shift take you to => Queen of Cups 5 - Advice => The Tower My feeing about the Moon when I turned it over, was that it was a sort of reminder that there is so much that is unknowable, about another person. If they come up to you, presenting a problem, they bring to us just the tip of the iceberg - usually of something very profound. We only see the top of the lobster, coming out of the pool, but there is that whole deep dark pool, and what else lurks in there? and how dangerous is it? I think, on some level, you became aware of the rest of the monsters lurking in the deep, and stood back, in a necessary move of self preservation. Temperance surprised me very much in the position of the veil, I was expecting to see some horrible swords card here. Perhaps Temperance indicates the degree to which the client was "tempering" herself before she came in; attempting to present a calm demeanor, whereas in truth, she was in quite a volatile state. The six of swords seems too easy and too obvious a card, almost redundant here -- What do I learn about the shift? we ask, and the tarot answers -- that there was a shift. Gee thanks a lot. What? Just step back? the lesson is to let it go? The tarot is asking us to "cop out?" Yet, I think again of that card with the boat and the ferry person - it would be nice if the tarot reader could be the ferryman, and the "querant" the rider in the boat. In an ideal situation, the reader-ferryman could help transport the querant to a new, a better place. In an ideal world, the client would be the one making the shift, with the assistance of the reader, I think. If only... Now, if I think of the previous card in its Marseille incarnation - the Six curved swords around a cut flower, remind me that the sixes are balance. The cut flower looks so protected in the mandorla - a reminder to stay balanced and focussed, protect the flower... In the same vein, perhaps the Queen of Cups and the Tower, warn of the danger of becoming too empathetic. How do we avoid losing footing, and drowning in the other person's dark pool, where the lobster lurks? Of course that is another question... and not an answer.

Satori	19 Feb 2005
You see this is why I approach the creation of a thread with a feeling of terrified elation. Once born the thread takes on a life of it's own. It is chaos theory in action. Who knew firemaiden would take up ncefafn's query that we do a reading on this energy shift, that gardener would offer up such a kickin' reading and firemaiden's return would bring in so much texture and support to gardener's reading, almost like two voices weaving together during a duet, but allowing each other room to play and go in new directions??? I ask you, who knew? I think that when I read, I'm not just there telling people stuff about cards, but entering into a mini relationship with them. For the space of the reading, we are engaged in a face to face panoply of shared purpose. The retrieval of information from a hidden source becomes our shared...mission. I never stopped to think that perhaps I was diving too deeply into that well. So at what point does the outward manifestation of a sitter's intensity just mirror my own? Hers sourced from the absolute mad hope that I will have some new kernel of information that will bring clarity to her troubled life, and mine that I will find the return from the void has brought my partner illumination and me, well, perhaps a tiny bit of dullness in my soul has come to a new level of sparkle. And I can drive home feeling I've done something special and right and fine. So maybe this is why I've cried so many times in my life from being "overly sensitive" to people. Or been told, "Not everything is about you ya' know..." Because like the woman in the chair, everything is about her, and her man, and her babies... It is about You to whoever the me is in the you. Right?

firemaiden	19 Feb 2005
elf wrote: I never stopped to think that perhaps I was diving too deeply into that well. So at what point does the outward manifestation of a sitter's intensity just mirror my own? Hers sourced from the absolute mad hope that I will have some new kernel of information that will bring clarity to her troubled life, and mine that I will find the return from the void has brought my partner illumination and me, well, perhaps a tiny bit of dullness in my soul has come to a new level of sparkle. And I can drive home feeling I've done something special and right and fine. So maybe this is why I've cried so many times in my life from being "overly sensitive" to people. Or been told, "Not everything is about you ya' know..." Because like the woman in the chair, everything is about her, and her man, and her babies... It is about You to whoever the me is in the you. Right? The Queen of Cups is turning out to be the most important part, isn't it? As usual when I draw cards, I think they are the wrong cards. I didn't think expect the Queen of cups and I didn't think she belonged there, so I actually drew a second set of cards, and you know what? Yup... the Queen of Cups showed up once more, (this time in position one) -- so did the Six of Swords. So I decided they must be the "right cards" LOL. Indeed, the second set of cards only confirmed the first, but the three of swords showed up in the position of temperance -- that was the card I had expected in this position, LOL.

ncefafn	20 Feb 2005
Moongold wrote: ....for it is in giving that we receive; it is in pardoning that we are pardoned; and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. I love this prayer, Moongold, but had forgotten it with the years. Thank you for reminding me of it. :) As for Gardener's interpretation, I agree with everything, but I would add this. I think the Tower always says, "Wake up, the house is on fire!" Perhaps, Elf, you were getting too comfortable, and this client came along to remind you that not every client is going to be happy and calm and open; that some clients can be dangerous; and to be awake and aware and, like the Queen of Cups, to love yourself enough to get yourself out of such situations quickly and safely. Re: the Fool/Jumper, I was once where Elf's client was. I went into a situation knowing, deep inside, that it was wrong, that I was making a tremendous and costly mistake, but continued toward that precipice despite all my intuition screaming at me to stop and run in the opposite direction. If even my own intuition was not strong enough to stop me, nothing a friend, relative or certainly a strange Tarot reader could say would halt my furious gallop towards destruction. But sometimes, you just have to jump. Ah, well. I survived to tell the tale, and have reached the glorious and perfect age of 40 years. How wonderful to be old enough not to give a d@mn what anyone thinks of me anymore. :joke: Kim

Moongold	20 Feb 2005
firemaiden wrote: 1 – issue - what is the shift about => The Moon 2 – the veil - what is hidden => Temperance 3 – what is to be learned => 6 of swords 4 - what new place does the shift take you to => Queen of Cups 5 - Advice => The Tower elf wrote: ] So at what point does the outward manifestation of a sitter's intensity just mirror my own? Hers sourced from the absolute mad hope that I will have some new kernel of information that will bring clarity to her troubled life, and mine that I will find the return from the void has brought my partner illumination and me, well, perhaps a tiny bit of dullness in my soul has come to a new level of sparkle. And I can drive home feeling I've done something special and right and fine…….. So maybe this is why I've cried so many times in my life from being "overly sensitive" to people. Or been told, "Not everything is about you ya' know..." …………….It is about You to whoever the me is in the you. Right? firemaiden wrote: The Queen of Cups is turning out to be the most important part, isn't it? Let us look again at the cards. It s unclear who the reading is for. It was initially to explain the energetic switch and then became [i] for elf[[/i]. Let us say that Moon was all the anger, pain and dramatic stuff that happened in the reading. XIV Temperance is the need for balance; the fact that there are a whole lot of merging issues here that can’t be resolved in the now by a quick intervention. The drama of the Moon hides her from you. 6 Swords may suggest letting your client float off under her own steam. You can wish her well, give her something to meditate on, but that is about all. Ultimately she steesr her own ship. Queen Cups is fascinating. What is to be learned? The Queen almost teeters on the edge of the ocean. In her lap is a huge cup with little black angels sitting near each handle. She does not look happy or pleased about this situation but she can make a choice about what she accepts and what she returns. She does not have to take it all on. The angels, little black Temperances, remind us not to worry, remind her not to...... In this reading she is elf :) Advice: Often Towers are just gonna fall. Tarot readers are usually not the first consulted when trouble strikes. By the time the Querent lands on your doorstep the rot has well and truly set in. You can do lots of listening and supportive things around that but that’s just about all you can do, often.

tmgrl2	20 Feb 2005
Enjoyed the reading about the reading. I won't go into any of the other cards...all that has been said makes good sense... The only thing that I would add is that when I saw The Tower in the advice position... I thought: I might say to this sitter...This card suggests that you will know what to do.. with all that you are going through and all of the work you are doing on these issues... It will simply STRIKE you as to what you must do in order to have the healthiest, most loving solution for all involved. And when that comes, you will know that there are things you must let go of and leave behind in order to embrace the next phase. I had the Tower appear in a live reading once and, while this isn't always the take I get on it....at that time, my client, too was quite upset (not threatening to me...but going through something very difficult)....and I said... See that Tower...see the lightening...As can happen so often in life...don't rush to find an answer before you are ready...Do all of the work of trying to understand, work through, make some changes....but one day, it will simply HIT you ...this is right...this is what I must do, and this is what I have to let go of...old ideas or ways of behaving. She was very puzzled by that, but at the end , she said: "I didn't like what you said about that Tower card (It was the Gilded)....but now that I think about it, usually I want to have answers RIGHT NOW and later on, I realize that I often reach a point where a shift occurs suddenly and I simply KNOW what has to go and where I am going next.... Just my thoughts... terri

psychic sue	22 Feb 2005
elf wrote: She became aggressive. She folded into herself and spat at me, "I told my friend, that if any reader ever told me to stay with him, that it wasn't over, I'd grab her by the throat!" She sat glaring at me. At this moment the energy in the room just...shifted. It changed. I felt like I was a step out of time. If you can believe it I turned over several more cards. From that point on she got the reading she wanted. Every card supported divorce. Every card was a positive statement for her about her life on her own. The reading positively sang with joy for her leaving her husband, and showed her doing some energy healing work some time in the future, just what she wanted to do. (on top of doing psychic readings or palmistry for people!!! Not in the cards, info from out of her mouth.) I just read this, and it really disturbed me. I think you were being protected. I think she may be quite powerful, psychically, but the energy is undirected. How the heck did you carry on the reading??!! She spat at you!!! And then, she is doing healing work and readings/palmistry for people?? I think she is the one who needs a healer. What would you if those same circumstance arose again, with the benefit of hindsight?

Satori	22 Feb 2005
Marion wrote: about the energy/space shift. Hi elf, I too have experienced those, it is almost like shifting in time and space. Everything just moves, even your body seems subtly moved. And, like you, this almost always happens in the presence of strong emotion, either mine or someone else's. Sometimes I look around, half amused, wondering if it is like Star Trek where they wind up in alternate realities and don't realize it. I should write notes to myself. :) I very humbly offer a thought. Her energy did alter things and changed the outcome, first for her and then for you as reader. I think a doorway closed, because your first reading expressed things she then rejected once seen. The future changed in that instant. imo of course, but I have experienced this several times. Marion Thanks so much for this Marion. I've reread it several times. I think I gave a little too much detail about this client, because she is human, struggling, just like all of us, and she deserves to be seen in her entirety, not one moment of stress in front of a reader. So my apologies for stressing too much the other aspects of her personality, and not staying focused on the shift. I was just really fascinated by the anger she had so close to the surface just looking for an outlet, any outlet. And when I gave her one, well, energy shift and you know the story. When this happens to you it seems you proceed regardless of the shift. Why is that? Have you ever thought of abandoning the reading? Are you just then led to continue? It never occurred to me to stop the reading...but I wonder why now!

Imagemaker	22 Feb 2005
Quote: It never occurred to me to stop the reading...but I wonder why now! Perhaps that was part of the protection. If you had had the idea of stopping, you probably would have. But something kept you going, and the cards and the shift supported giving the woman what she demanded. I've felt that shift in a different context, not tarot reading, when for an instant I feel time stop and as you said, everything subtly changes. And a different path opens. Afterwards, none of it can be explained logically, but the feeling is a knowing that stands outside physical logic.

Alta	22 Feb 2005
I should clarify. It has never happened to me during a reading. Just speculating now... why stop? I don't think you can change things back. Best to keep going. What could you have have done? I think you proceeded in the exactly appropriate way.

psychic sue	23 Feb 2005
BUT what if she had pulled a knife out on you? Or did you instinctive feel she wouldn't? I understand what you say about her being angry etc, but to me, spitting in someones face is not a "normal" reaction to anger!

Satori	23 Feb 2005
Hi Sue, She didn't literally spit at me. She spat her words out; she spoke in such a way as to look like she was spitting out words.......she was so angry that her words came out very punctuated. It is an expression. Sorry about the confusion.

psychic sue	23 Feb 2005
OOH! I thought she literally spat at you! I see what you mean then. I have experienced a "shift" once or twice. I was reading my best friend's cards, and suddenly we both stopped dead - the lights in her house flashed on and off and I felt her mother there in the room with us. Didn't see her, just felt a shift in the atmosphere, as you so well described it. I wondered, did your ears pop? Because ours did, probably due to the shift in vibration. To carry on the story, I looked at the cards and everthing just flowed, tripped off my tongue. It was all very accurate - really personal stuff about her marriage - and she was thrilled with the reading. The atmosphere kind of gradually changed back, not in one big shift like it did origionally. Anyway thats my most intense "shifting" experience.

hilary	23 Feb 2005
This has been an absolutely facinating thread to read!! There is a quote from the very first book i picked up about our gifts. " It's a sad fact that psycic (and Tarot) work can attract some very lost and unbalanced souls. Whilst they may not be dangerous, these people can be difficult to handle, even when you are experienced." -- Tara Ward While I don't read for money, I do keep this quote in mind when a "friend of a friend" requests a reading. Also, perhaps you were brought together with this particular sitter, not for her benefit, Elf, but for yours (and ours!!). The "shift" during the reading, created the question which you posted. The question created an atmosphere of learning and sharing and discussion that, had it not been for your encounter, would never have happened. People like myself would not have had the opportunity to learn from yourself and others half way around the world. A sitter can go off into the sunset, and you may never have contact with them again, but the lessons we learn from their particular situation, their energy, their cards, stay with us as readers as we carry forward......h. ^j^

Imagemaker	23 Feb 2005
You make such a good point, Hilary. These phenomena are untalked-about face to face, for many reasons. To be able to talk about them here is comforting, reassuring, helpful and energizing. It also reminds us we're not alone or imagining it all. Sensing is so different from imagining.

psychic sue	23 Feb 2005
hilary wrote: Also, perhaps you were brought together with this particular sitter, not for her benefit, Elf, but for yours (and ours!!). The "shift" during the reading, created the question which you posted. The question created an atmosphere of learning and sharing and discussion that, had it not been for your encounter, would never have happened. People like myself would not have had the opportunity to learn from yourself and others half way around the world. A sitter can go off into the sunset, and you may never have contact with them again, but the lessons we learn from their particular situation, their energy, their cards, stay with us as readers as we carry forward......h. ^j^ I couldn't agree more Hilary. And this forum is fantastic. I only discovered it a month ago, and although I have a few like-minded friends, I wouldn't discuss most of my expiriences with anyone else, as people tend to think you are mentally ill if you do! I'd like to send out my thanks to everyone on this forum for all your insight and fascinating discussions and stories I have read and participated in.

The The Lessons Continue to Flow.... thread was originally posted on 18 Feb 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.