Is there one definitive (or correct) way to categorize seasons w/suits?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 15 Mar 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Junia	15 Mar 2005
If there is already a thread which discusses why some authors disagree on whether the suit of wands is summer and the suit of cups is spring or vice versa, would someone please direct me. Or, does it just depend on how the author pens the Deck and so you follow one set of rules w/each individual Deck? Thanks folks!

Fulgour	15 Mar 2005
Do you associate the Court Cards with the Zodiac? I have always seen 12 (of the 16) of them as being: Queens ~ Aries Cancer Libra Capricorn Kings ~ Taurus Leo Scorpio Aquarius Knights ~ Gemini Virgo Sagittarius Pisces Now there are many associations for the Elements, Fire, Water, Air, and Earth, but with the 12 Court Cards matched to the Zodiac here's the directions: East: Aries North: Cancer West: Libra South: Capricorn Many people prefer Cancer as South, but it's North, as per the Tropic of Cancer, and Capricorn is South, as per the Tropic of Capricorn. Hope this helps! :)

Fulgour	15 Mar 2005
I think part of the beauty of Tarot is it presents an organic unity, rather than a mathematical one. Things are as they are, and not so systematized. Spring ~ Aries Taurus Gemini Summer ~ Cancer Leo Virgo Autumn ~ Libra Scorpio Sagittarius Winter ~ Capricorn Aquarius Pisces How the Court Cards relate is an interesting notion.

firemaiden	15 Mar 2005
The answer to your question is no. There is no one definitive or correct way to categorize seasons with suits, or with anything else for that matter. All correspondances are highly deck- and author specific.

jmd	15 Mar 2005
There are threads here and there that have discussed some of the reasons for correlations, but these are always worth re-discussing and reviewing. There are not only myriad views, but the reasons for those views are sometimes based on various ways of working. For example, Fulgour already presents some of the reasons and ways in which correlations have been made. Often, the first correlation that is made is to an element, and then from the element to a season. For the suits, each has been correlated in different ways by different people. For example, Swords has been correlated to Fire, to Water, to Earth, and to Air - each with good reasons and seemingly 'natural' to those who holds that view. The elements themselves have variously been attributed to the seasons in differing ways. For example, some have used as a basis the element of the fixed signs of the zodiac to inform the correlation, whereas others have used other methods. What results, then, are numerous possibilities. In terms of the elements, it does seem that Fire and Summer are more closely related, and that fire and Swords are likewise, to my personal reflections, more closely 'connected'. If such correlations are also accepted, then the next step is a transitive one: Swords and Summer become connected... but of course, even here, not everyone will agree - so correlations become fraught with disagreed indications. For myself, if correlations were to be made between the suits and the seasons, they would be the following: Swords - Fire - Summer Cups - Water - Autumn Coins - Earth - Winter Batons - Air - Spring

Eco74	15 Mar 2005
I actually like to switch.. Usually I associate; Swords - Air - North - Winter (for the clarity of air/thought/ice) Wands - Fire - East - Spring (for the rising sun and arriving warmth, almost explosive energy as the plants start sprouting from the frozen earth) Cups - Water - South - Summer (for the innocence, the receptive nature of the season) Coins - Earth - West - Fall (for the abundance of the earth, harvest et al) Sometimes though swords come out like Fire or Water, Cups hold embers or sprouting plants, coins reflect the clarity of mind like mirrors etc... Also, the reasons for my associations would not work on the southern hemisphere as the seasons are reversed there compared to here in the north. So flexibility is good..

tarotbear	15 Mar 2005
Blame the artist ... For me, my personal interpretation of the seasons in the Aces of the suits is: Ace Pents - Spring Ace Cups - Summer Ace Wands - Autumn Ace Swords - Winter This is based on imagery from the RWS and Wood decks ... mostly how Wood chose to decorate her cards.

tmgrl2	15 Mar 2005
I agree with firemaiden....it is quite specific to what you find comfortable within your work and with decks and systems you use. Here's another thread with a "flavor" of discussion on the topic... http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=23149&highlight=seasons+suits And another: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=2621&highlight=seasons+suits Enjoy.... terri

Junia	15 Mar 2005
Thank you all for taking your time to impart knowledge. It seems that all make a very logical argument for their point of view. Tmgrl 2 - Thank you for the threads--I read them and didn't even realize there was SO MUCH debate about this. Eco74 - My first seasonal elemental deck Tarot of Moon Garden reads the same way. FireMaiden and Tarotbear - thanks, at least it doesn't appear completely wrong. Somewhere someone wrote about "intent" being the most important thing when you read. And also, in one of the given threads, something about being driven nuts when the interpretation changed w/deck (I think that I am in that place). Last night, after I posted this thread, I went to bed and had strange dreams. I can remember only bits and pieces; but, all of this is not only food for thought--but geez the dream fodder for it all. At one point I think I set my hair on fire-so would that be air or fire (from the thread) or swords with the intellect and then what on earth would Jung say--LAM-Laughing at myself. JMD - how on earth, fire, water or air, do you moderators do what you do? Foulgor - I wish I could keep all of that straight in my head. Both decks are supposed to RW based and you are right they don't all agree! Love and Nines of Cups-today for your help! Junia

Lillie	15 Mar 2005
This is the way I have always seen it. They are not only the Tarot associations, but the basic magical, elemental, correspondances that I learned. Air, Swords, East, Spring, Dawn. Fire, Wands, South, Summer, Midday. West, Cups, West, Autumn, Sunset. North, Discs, North, Winter, Midnight. I know that there are many other traditions that would have it differently, and they are as valid as the one I use. However, I think that the most important thing is that you choose the one that seems right to you and stick with it. I have all these associations in my mind, and thinking of one connects to all the others. If I am wondering if they are right, or if they should really be something else, then it disturbs my concentration/meditation/whatever, breaks my chain of thought and sows the seed of doubt in my mind. Therefore I find that it is best to stick to just the one system, whilst still recognising there are others that are just as correct as mine. I get around this in my own mind by telling myself that nothing exists in isolation, that the pattern and cycles of the elements/seasons etc. are all interwoven, all partaking of each other, and dependant upon the existance of the others. At least, that is how it seems to me. :)

MeeWah	15 Mar 2005
Depending on the deck & the moment, I use either of two sets of associations. The first set as mentioned by Eco74, found through using the cards & for the same reasons: Eco74 wrote: Swords - Air - North - Winter (for the clarity of air/thought/ice) Wands - Fire - East - Spring (for the rising sun and arriving warmth, almost explosive energy as the plants start sprouting from the frozen earth) Cups - Water - South - Summer (for the innocence, the receptive nature of the season) Coins - Earth - West - Fall (for the abundance of the earth, harvest et al) The second as mentioned by Lillie& for the elemental/magickal correspondences: Lillie wrote: Air, Swords, East, Spring, Dawn. Fire, Wands, South, Summer, Midday. West, Cups, West, Autumn, Sunset. North, Discs, North, Winter, Midnight. Both work equally well for their purposes though consistency of merit. Btw: there is no definitive method. The associations of any deck usually depends on the creator's view. Nigel Jackson's deck the first in my experience that uses the association of Swords/Fire & Wands/Air. As I like the deck, I adjusted.

Junia	21 Mar 2005
Thanks Meewah--No is a good answer sometimes. The problem that I am having is switching back and forth from Tarot of a Moon Garden (my main deck) and my new Connolly. They are both patterned after RW. But, what is really odd about the Connolly is that the Nine of Swords (and one other in that suit) definitely shows snow deep on the ground and yet her book states Swords is for Autumn. Also one of the wands suit shows harvesting grapes in one picture and falling leaves in another and yet the book shows Wands = Summer!?? Oh, well I know that they did the book first to correspond to RW and the deck later. I'll just memorize it the way I have been doing. Although, I must say that the book really gets confusing to try to understand it in depth. Hopefully, my deck will get to know me and it won't matter. Thanks, again all! Junia

The Is there one definitive (or correct) way to categorize seasons w/suits? thread was originally posted on 15 Mar 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.