Letting Go of Ego.....

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 18 Mar 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Satori	18 Mar 2005
I've had a couple of conversations with some of my reader friends here, and, well, the E word has come up. EGO So I'm gonna be daring and throw it out to all of you. I've told my sitters that the info I'm giving them is coming thru me, not from me...and then I've felt so happy to be told, "You're so good!!!" I've tried to figure out which deck is the "magic deck" that gives me the best readings...when it is really just that my ear is tuned in better some days than others.... And recently, when I was given feedback telling me I was accurate and that some of my reading had come true, rather than give the nod right back to the Universe, I spent some time basking in my own greatness. Ouch!!! The de-throning was inevitable. So how has the Ego bug bitten you? How did you delouse? Are you bug-free? Can we ever be bug-free? All replies welcome.........Ego is not.;)

Eco74	18 Mar 2005
So far so good... But I did get an email today from a woman I've been laying cards for on a couple of occations asking if I could give her a more general reading "because I've been so accurate". Seeing as I still have enough self-doubt I didn't get to the huge ego-peak but did find myself smiling happily and when I did I quickly sent a "thankyou" to the "powers that be" for letting me see clearly on those occations. I can't help thinking that if I use this 'vision' for my own good I might loose sight of things, so that fear is keeping me very well behaved. :D I think one way of "de-bugging" ourselves may be to meditate at a semi-regular basis and envision ourselves as the recepticle at the recieving end of the "graces of sight and enlightenment". That would place us in the same position as the people we manage to do accurate and helpful readings for, and that way it would balance out a bit more. And, another problem if we are too humble is that people will repeat things like "but YOU are the person that told me so YOU have the knowledge I need, the 'powers' have chosen YOU after all" and that makes it difficult to remain humble. Perhaps the best way to handle compliments of this kind (and we all love them) is to just say "Thankyou" and forward the thanks to our own sources of sight. But there are times we will forget this ofcourse. The universe surely is wise enough to know that we do not mean to take all credit for ourselves and surely gives us a little time to "mend our ways". As long as we go back to the humble ways again, we should be fine.

Dark Inquisitor	18 Mar 2005
Here are some red flag ego warning signs: * Readers who claim 100% accuracy or say they are never wrong. *Erecting a mental temple to yourself and moving in. *My deck, blahblahblah, every thread -no matter what the original subject - is turned into a discussion of *My Deck*. *Assuming your readings are of world importance . *Twisting interpretations so they are made to seem like they are of global or god-like proportions. *When the reading is more about you than the person you are reading for. In other words , when the purpose of reading becomes the search for praise instead of the search for truth or helping others. *When your readings become exercises in endlessly trying to save others, thinking you are the great dispenser of love and light to the planet and all its' tiny people. *When your tarot discussions are so full of intellectual hot air , superfluous wordage , and obscure references that it alienates more people than it educates. (Especially if you don't talk that way in real life.) It is one thing to be well spoken, and another to use your intellectual prowess to try to make your statements either hard to refute or difficult for the average person to understand so they will think you are smarter than you really are. *When you assume you know the one and only true meaning of the tarot , and your proclamations are conspicuously absent of words such as maybe , possibly , could be, might be , etc.

isthmus nekoi	18 Mar 2005
I can't say that I see ego as a problem in and of itself. Ego is very important - without it, you lose all individuality, you would move through life completely unconscious and in a sense, perfect and aligned but with zero awareness of such. Ego is what holds your mind together but yes, it can get blown out of proportion :) I also don't see it as an issue of remaining humble. That still puts you on a humble-proud axis. Just get off that axis altogether, you don't need it.

Simone	18 Mar 2005
I am a big EGO-ist, my ego is strong and very much alive and kickin' :D I say: while humbleness is seen as a "good" trait, it also often betrays that we do not see ourselves as "worthy" of praise, aka some game of feeling inferior. Not always, but - isn't being truly humble the fact acknowledging your strong points and at the same time not flashing them in the face of everyone? If admitting to yourself and others that you are good at something, does that mean your ego is too big? Or is it simply accepting the facts and building on your strengths? Why do we have to play ourselves down? I have "developed" my own strategy - as I feel that if I can admit to my strengths and weaknesses, others may feel encouraged to do so too. Admitting or acknowledging strengths does not mean bragging. Admitting or acknowledging strengths brings along, for me, gratitude and joy. And both those feelings are for me a sign of growth. Admitting or acknowledging strengths lift energies. All this of course in a truly honest-to-oneself attitude. This only works if you are not lying to yourself, neither in the way of playing your self down nor of playing yourself up! Understatement and overstatement are not harmonious. Love Simone

psychic sue	18 Mar 2005
Here here Dark Inquisitor! I concur with everything you say 100%. Of course we are wrong sometimes - we have picked up the wrong thread or gone down the wrong path. Of course, everyone has an Ego, and its lovely when people give you positive feedback. When we get negative feedback we should try and learn from that. I think we should always try and bring to the forefront of our minds WHY we read the cards - to help others. Sue x

judylea1	18 Mar 2005
Ah, that ol' hubris. I think ego is a good thing to some extent, it helps us survive, helps us to accomplish things. It's a good thing, so long as it doesn't keep us from seeing the truth of things. If we ignore that the powers that be will knock us on the head. It's a difficult balance, one of those challenges of life.

Milfoil	18 Mar 2005
This is a very stimulating thread with some really interesting responses which have made me seriously think about my own attitudes to reading. The only little bit I would add is that, certainly in the early days, getting some positive feedback is extrememly productive (and sort of necessary) if only to give the reader more confidence in their own skills and thereby allowing them to learn from each experience. I can remember being extremely greedy for feedback but in all honesty I believe it was only to see if I was getting it right or not. Of course, like every other area of life, when praise or acknowledgement becomes 'required' like a payment rather than simply usefull feedback then perhaps its time to re-examine the whole thing. Everybody pats themselves on the back now and then but defining whether the expression is a smug grin of self satisfaction or a smile of honest thanks that you didn't give the client the wrong information is sometimes difficult to discern. There's never any need to be smug but likewise there's no need to be a simpering doormat either. Its also worth remembering that people can sometimes 'need' to give you their good feedback. If they are so happy that your reading has helped them and possibly their life has changed tangibly for the better because of it, its just as important to accept that praise and be happy for them and with them. I think a lot of people find it difficult to accept praise especially those who are natural 'givers'. I suppose that recognising the fact that you are only a link in the chain of consciousness here is helpful for keeping things in perspective.

rachelcat	18 Mar 2005
Simone wrote: while humbleness is seen as a "good" trait, it also often betrays that we do not see ourselves as "worthy" of praise, aka some game of feeling inferior. This reminds me of a parable I read somewhere (or maybe heard in a sermon . . .) Two wealthy and powerful men were in church praying. Suddenly one stands up and prays out loud, "Oh, Lord, I am nothing compared to you." Not to be outdone, the other wealthy man does the same--"Oh, Lord I am nothing!" The janitor walked by and was inspired by their piety, so he began to pray, "Oh, Lord, I am nothing!" The first rich man nudged the other and said, "Hmph, look who thinks he's nothing!"

firemaiden	18 Mar 2005
rachelcat wrote: This reminds me of a parable I read somewhere (or maybe heard in a sermon . . .) Two wealthy and powerful men were in church praying. Suddenly one stands up and prays out loud, "Oh, Lord, I am nothing compared to you." Not to be outdone, the other wealthy man does the same--"Oh, Lord I am nothing!" The janitor walked by and was inspired by their piety, so he began to pray, "Oh, Lord, I am nothing!" The first rich man nudged the other and said, "Hmph, look who thinks he's nothing!" This is a delightful point, my dear rachelcat. It reminds me of Blaise Pascal's paradox, that even trying to be humbler than thou is an act of pride; and for himself, even writing his book about the problem of pride is an act of pride, it is built into our nature, and there is no escape for man from this paradox except by the grace of God. He writes also Quote: 525: There must be feelings of humility, not from nature, but from penitence, not to rest in them, but to go on to greatness. There must be feelings of greatness, not from merit, but from grace, and after having passed through humiliation. (from Pensées by Blaise Pascal)

firemaiden	18 Mar 2005
but to answer elf's question ... of course i've been hit by the ego bug, it almost crippled me. First I did funny readings for fun, then people told me I was good and my readings were accurate. I didn't "believe in the tarot" anyway, and I figured if people considered my silly readings to be accurate, that was their problem, it had nothing to do with me. Then I started taking it seriously, and got a huge block, and couldn't read at all anymore. Part of me thinks it is equally dangerous to "believe in" the accuracy of the cards, as to believe in the accuracy of one's own reading of them. Who knows what the person in front of you is really going through?. I think it is important to remain conscious and respectful at all times of the element of chaos, of sheer unknowability of events and of people - and not only of the person we read for, but also for ourselves. There will always be a part of the other, a part of ourselves, out of our reach, reserved for infinity, and if we claim to be able to know it, and own it, it will reach around and surprise us big time. (In place of "belief", I like the word "trust". I have to trust the cards, and trust the ideas that pop up, and the little voices that speak within, as somehow relevant for the reading. )

SongDeva	18 Mar 2005
I think there is EVERY reason to feel good when you've received feedback like that. It might not mean that you "knew everything and was right" so much as you were able to shut down your ego and tune in that day in a meaninful way. That takes skill and practice and patience and trust and huge faith. I think it's something to shout about.

tarotbear	18 Mar 2005
Ego is a very important part of being alive. There is nothing wrong with having someone stroke your ego; I am surprised at how many people are embarassed when this happens to them. It is another thing to search out those to stroke you. I have said to my boyfriend many times 'This monthly 15 minutes of fame is a real killer! - you think it's easy? LOL! ' But I can't stop laughing at Dark Inquisitor's 100% accuracy :smoker:

Satori	18 Mar 2005
Quote: There must be feelings of humility, not from nature, but from penitence, not to rest in them, but to go on to greatness. There must be feelings of greatness, not from merit, but from grace, and after having passed through humiliation. This is quite lovely. I like this a lot. I think that for me, I am trying to spot ego and tame it. I don't want to kill it. I don't want to annihilate my self; I want to come to a place of knowing the self from the Self. I think that many of the points raised in the thread are thought provoking and useful. Thank you. I do notice a little thrill of perhaps fear from some people when they even consider the taming of the ego or finding a way of being in the world with out ego. Which seems to me the Ego responding with fear that we want a life where it's role is not the starring one!? I haven't gone off half-cocked and acting like a braggart, and I don't want to descend to the point of disgusting whining where I lament that I have no talent, that I am the Mouthpiece for the Divine...I want balance and a concious effort of remembering that the wisdom, sensitivity and confidence I have allows the Tarot to speak according to that level. Such that our readings reflect our experience which includes our personal learning and symbol sets. I think that no matter where you are on the Tarot path or any spiritual path, there will be times that you may forget this. There may be times when the Ego sees an opening and leaps at the chance to be venerated. For some of us it is a bump in the road, a passing fancy...a thrill and moment of crazy glory. Perhaps this is the moment when I ask if all of us Tarot readers need to be spiritual or have some kind of spiritual perspective. Because for the readers who deny intuition or a Divine Force behind the cards, and read from a purely symbolic or dignity based perspecitive, then the Ego just might be your best friend. Not sure if this is a split in the discussion, but it is a question to consider I think.

ncefafn	18 Mar 2005
Sometimes I forget what a jerk I can be. So never mind.

Simone	18 Mar 2005
ncefafn wrote: There are two strategies for keeping your ego in check. [...] The second is getting a cat. No one who has a cat can have too great an idea of her own importance. I do have a cat, but I just proudly confessed to my big ego... so now you got me confuzzled - do I have one now or not? (ego, I mean) })

ncefafn	18 Mar 2005
I should've been more specific. You need to have a Maevie-cat. My cat Maeve is the Empress of the Universe. She is gorgeous and she knows it. What is more, she considers herself the alpha female of my household. For example, she comes to me to be petted. I lavish her with attention. When she is done with my services, she puts her paw on my forehead and oh so casually extends her claws. I know my place now. Servitude. :) Kim

tmgrl2	18 Mar 2005
I'm still passing through phases and stages. Initially, I really wanted to get feedback from people about readings... Then I started doing more live readings (as I know you have, elf)... At first, it felt good when I got feedback about the readings ...positive feedback that somehow I was "right on." Lately, though, I have had sitters who cry some time during the reading...because I have touched on something painful. They aren't angry...It seems that something that came out in the reading brought up feelings and issues. So, now...I say before I even start the reading...that it isn't necessary for them to give me feedback about what I say...I say that I hope that the reading is somehow helpful in even some small way in their lives. I do wind up getting feedback sometimes days or weeks later about something I said during the reading. Most of the time, I don't even remember what I said. One person reminded me by naming several cards and telling me what I said and then I remembered. I'm becoming quite comfortable doing the reading and moving on afterward. I don't think sitters even know how the reading is going to affect them ...until they move forward with the information. And, I, myself, am not sure where the things I say are coming from. I do say a little quiet prayer before I begin for some guidance and then, I just do my best and say what comes to me. I did a reading for my stepdaughter yesterday. I started crying at one point when the Queen of Cups came up and for me it was my stepdaughter's mom who just passed away in December. So, I'm thinking... "It's her mom who died, and I'm the one crying..." So, who knows? She called late last night when they got back home and told me she had told her husband most of what she remembered about the reading ...while they were driving home. She said: "You told me things that no one could have possibly know about me, about what I was thinking." I didn't ask her what those things were and she didn't volunteer and, surprise! to me, I wasn't even curious .but she was very pleased that I had done the reading for her. Now one of my other stepdaughters (the one that I know really has "tolerated" me...with respect....for 30 years...but who has never fully accepted that I have married her dad) ) is hinting that she wants a reading....I can't read for her, so I will have to find a way out. But, ego?? I simply read because I feel I need to read. I feel less and less like I need someone to tell me anything at all about the results. Again, to just shower me with praise at the time of the reading is meaningless to some extent, since I feel the real impact happens over time anyhow and people may not even be conscious or aware of how the reading affected them or if it did.... terri

ncefafn	18 Mar 2005
tmgrl2 wrote: I feel less and less like I need someone to tell me anything at all about the results. Again, to just shower me with praise at the time of the reading is meaningless to some extent, My complaint about feedback from readings is that I don't get negative feedback. If I screw up, I want to know it. I want the sitter to say, "Kim, thanks for your time and energy, but I feel you were really a pompous @ss to say . . . " Or, "No, you totally got it wrong because you assumed . . . " One time, I did an internet reading and had totally misread the situation because I had started from a faulty assumption. Luckily, that lady e-mailed me back and said, "No, this is the way it is. So given that, how do you explain those cards?" I was really grateful that she did that, and I did go back and look at her cards from that new angle, and was able to give her some interpretations that made sense to her. How are you ever going to learn if someone doesn't tell you when you screw up? Kim

rabidwolfie	18 Mar 2005
rachelcat wrote: This reminds me of a parable I read somewhere (or maybe heard in a sermon . . .) Two wealthy and powerful men were in church praying. Suddenly one stands up and prays out loud, "Oh, Lord, I am nothing compared to you." Not to be outdone, the other wealthy man does the same--"Oh, Lord I am nothing!" The janitor walked by and was inspired by their piety, so he began to pray, "Oh, Lord, I am nothing!" The first rich man nudged the other and said, "Hmph, look who thinks he's nothing!" I hate to say it but, funny as that is it's true more often than not. Sometimes people will pretend to be "humble" when they are really just showing off. It's sad. As for the origenal question, I don't THINK my ego has ever gotten out of proportion, & I do my best to keep it that way, but I'm only human. LOL However, should my head ever swell to much, for any reason, I'm usually surrounded by freinds that won't hesitate to bring me back down. Heh. Admittedly, it's always nice to hear what you said was correct, even better to hear that it somehow helped the person you did the reading for. And like someone else said, should something you said turn out to be incorrect, take the time to learn from that. However, a good idea to keeping an eager ego down is making it known to the querant (is that the right word?) that what you read from the cards may not be 100% correct. There's ALWAYS room for error in interpretation. NEVER say that you are never wrong, even if you are that good, as if invites a long fall, so to speak. Hope that helps.

Nevada	18 Mar 2005
Oh that damnable ego! Oh that beautiful ego! I feel disturbingly at home on this thread. :P In a recent discussion elsewhere, the idea of "comeuppance" arose. I remembered learning to drive a car, as a teenager, and how I would get this cocky idea that I now knew it all, a kind of super-confidence, perhaps from the giddy feeling of driving fast on the freeway and knowing I was the one in control of the car. That feeling was usually swiftly followed by an incident or stupid goof that would put me severely in my place. Ego is necessary, but inflated ego can be dangerous. The Universe provides our comeuppance, or some balancing factor, sooner or later. Self-esteem is often confused with ego, but I think (a healthy) self-esteem is actually right in the center of the ego spectrum. It's easy for me to feel feedback-deprived, at times. We want to check how we're doing, and that's a good thing. But if I become too attached to the answer, the slightest bit of praise can inflate me so I'm floating just beneath the ceiling. That's when I'm at my most dangerous, to myself and others. That bubble is going to pop! Criticism at that time does almost the opposite. When I'm in balance this isn't as likely to be a problem. So centering--always centering before reading--may be part of the answer. It seems one solution, for me, is also to focus on the reading being about the sitter. Always about the sitter. tmgrl2 wrote: So, now...I say before I even start the reading...that it isn't necessary for them to give me feedback about what I say...I say that I hope that the reading is somehow helpful in even some small way in their lives. That seems like the simplest way to avoid problems during a reading. I think we can expect ego to be a persistent problem. Just keeping in mind that our egos are a part of everything we are, and everything we do, can help. Staying in balance is a big issue for me. Nevada

firemaiden	18 Mar 2005
Dark Inquisitor wrote: Here are some red flag ego warning signs: . To this list, I'd like to add a one more severe warning sign: * criticising or ridiculing others who mean well, with intent to hurt

Nevada	18 Mar 2005
Something I saw recently on a blog was a discussion of self-censoring. For some reason it's become popular in our world to "just say it" as if the controls we place on ourselves are somehow wrong, that free speech is only free if one blurts out whatever words cross our minds. In my view this results in a lot of hard feelings. The self-censor can be ego-driven, and can require the same kind of balancing effort. There are days we're more forthcoming, and that can have its good and bad side. We blurt out something and don't realize that in our passion to freely express ourselves we may be hurting another or treading all over their ideas. I know I'm guilty of this. So I would say another ego-harnessing tool is self-censoring, and that must also be a finely honed tool in the reading process, because the sitter may take what the reader says so seriously. Edited to add: However this can become a second-guessing game with oneself. There comes a point we have to learn how to behave and then act out of those better instincts. (I believe in rules of etiquette as a base from which to learn our behavioral instincts. Our own rules of etiquette or someone else's, out of a book or straight from common sense.) Making a certain way of behaving a habit that one can turn to in moments of great emotion or ego roller coaster riding. Nevada

Dark Inquisitor	18 Mar 2005
firemaiden wrote: To this list, I'd like to add a one more severe warning sign: * criticising or ridiculing others who mean well, with intent to hurt Reading between the lines, should we then add : * assuming what the intent of others is ? If your post is hinting that I am criticizing and ridiculing, I disagree. This thread asked a valid question. I answered to the best of my ability . No persons were named. If my intent was to hurt and ridicule, my reply would have been entirely different. I must also add that I find nothing on my list the least bit funny. I consider them fairly serious indicators that people should be paying attention to. Can we assume that people with an overabundance of ego "mean well" ? I don't think this is always the case. If anything, the ego only wishes to further itself and is very clever at covering up its' true motives. Let's take one of my examples: being well spoken instead of being full of overly intellectual hot air. If we think about others when we want to say something and we want to communicate instead of self-inflate, we will be considerate of the average person and realize they may not have all day to look up 5 syllable words in the dictionary when a 2 syllable one will do. What is our point? If one is writing a private research paper or working on one's own manuscript , fine. Different situation. This is an opinion. For myself, I can wade through the intellectual hot air well enough and I may even be able to serve it back. But others may not . Being considerate of that is a good thing in public discourse. Perhaps we shouldn't talk about ego anymore. Many egos might be happier with that , and it may be in the public interest .

Umbrae	18 Mar 2005
There’s always another person there when we read for others. Sounds trite, however it’s true. The other person is the core of a reading. You’re sitting across from a live human. What we say to them may have a profound effect. Our words may affect. So we go along and receive good feedback. We know we are good readers – bang. Bad reading. It is usually something small, and inconsequential. And a lovely yet gentle reminder. The Ego Bug. Ego’s not the portion of yourself that keeps you alive, that’s a much lower level. Ego is who we think we are, who we project that we think we are at the moment. No, I don’t think that reading about what deck you use or what method of interpretation you follow – throw in some astrology and Kabbalah, a little numerology too, it’s about the relationship you have for the next thirty minutes or fifteen or whatever, it’s not about the books you’ve read. It’s the relationship. Bad readings can occur when we forget, that the reading isn’t about us. Bad readings occur when we ‘know’, and don’t feel. It can happen anytime. You go into a setting thinking about home life, you feel out of sorts, a headache. You just read the cards because it’s what you do…habit…no connection. Face to face readings are a whole different ball game than reading (or posting) online. When we sit down to read for another, regardless of intent of/for remuneration, is a relationship. You look them in the eyes. From my perspective, "It ain't about me...” I’ve looked into some pretty different sets of eyes in my time. Sometimes, what looks back at you can be unsettling. Sometimes feedback can distract us, and we begin reading for the wrong reasons. When our heads swell, we are in danger of missing opportunities, for either a better reading, or something more profound. And the latter can go either way. When folks tell me a reading was good, I thank source - the universe - God(dess), cuz it wasn’t about me. You may be an Ace reader by yourself, but when another sits down, you are no longer an ace – you are one portion of a two, and when you become aware of that, it’s a three. Aces don’t read for others, it’s impossible. When we ‘tell’ a sitter, it’s not a reading. When we communicate with a sitter, it is bilateral – it becomes a relationship, we listen as well and tell. Look that sitter in the eyes – connect – there’s a real person there. That’s whom it’s about. “For Entertainment Purposes Only” states that I’m not legally responsible for your actions. It alleviates accountability. You can say it legally, you may have to post it to be legal, but please please don’t ever feel that way in your heart. It’s about the relationship. You may find it important to do something before you pull out the cards to establish rapport, it may necessary to use this pre-reading time to find on what level you can have compassion for the other person. To add palm reading so you can actually hold their hand, touch them, may be a good start. I use numerology. It’s gets them to warm to me. Gives me time to warm to them, to find a level on which we can build rapport. Ego moves into a backseat when I am sitting and talking face to face. I’m recognizing you – as a person…and then I can move onto it not being “about me” and how good or clever I might be…we can start to read. It’s not about being humble, it’s about being a servant, but not in servitude. And slide the cards across the table… And look them in the eyes…

DarkElectric	18 Mar 2005
Was it Henry David Thoreau who said "Never appear to be more of an intellectual than the people you're trying to talk to" or someone else? Maybe Mark Twain? Dang. Somebody wise like that. I'm not exactly sure who said it, but it sure does hold to be great advice. A few years ago, a really really good friend of mine told me I had a tendency to do that. I didn't think I did, but, sure enough, he was right, and there were folks I liked a lot who thought I was talking down to them, and trying to "Lord my brain over em'" as one girl said. Man, I was embarrassed. I felt like I'd been behaving like a real jerk, and since then have made a conscious effort to pay attention to the people I'm conversing with, and make them feel comfortable wth me, and what I say. This doesn't mean "dumbing down", but it does mean that I have to see if I can explain something in more or less "plain language", because people have really different vocabulary skills. And by doing this for a while, I came to realise that I had really been perpetuating unconscious intellectual elitism, And it was putting good people off. This ties in really well about ego, because here was mine, strutting around using big huge words to impress people who were definitely impressed in the opposite direction. I try to rein in any tendency to do that very thing when I read for people too. Man, I admit, it feels good when people tell me I'm a great reader. I've worked hard to learn things, and I love cards sooooo much. But, what I always remember is that no matter how good people think I am, I am really dead wrong an awful lot. So, as with any skill/art/passion -I do what I do, and when I'm wrong, cheerfully admit it. I'm also no biggie mystic Ooga Wooga person. I'm just a chick with a deck of cards who likes to read for people. This also helps keep my ego from going into the realm of the ridiculous.

Rosanne	18 Mar 2005
I agree with Nevada- Egocentric/egotism and self confidence are often confused. Pride in giving a good reading can sometimes, for me, be a problem. I find myself a little smug at times. On my mirror I have a small sign that says "E is for Excellence and also Effluent" My bookmark in my scrapbook(Journal) has this to say "Don't judge yourself by your intentions and everybody else by your expectations" For all else I agree with Dark Inquisitor, especially about "my deck is the only one" attitude. ~Rosanne

Moongold	18 Mar 2005
I confess! I confess! In my delight at learning Tarot I am always pleased when things go well and pleased too at the feedback from others. It's human. Of course we should be pleased when things go well. It's healthy and reinforces us for the times when they don't. And there will be plenty of those. Many of us are of good intent and work at our readings because we delight in the Tarot, not because we want our egos stroked. I often know when a reading has been flat or not so good anyway. I don't think that because we read Tarot we are by default more wise, more enlightened than others. Querents also have the capacity, right and responsibility to balance what readers say. Hahahaha - many of them choose to do this by not acting on what we say! We should perhaps discuss THAT more. What's more, often the accuracy or not of a reading is hard to measure. Sometimes readings relate to the future and sometimes they are about personal development which takes time, sometimes years, to integrate. So more often than not it is the *engagement* itself which matters. The fact that we spend time and thought in *being with* people, whatever their issue or question is, is sometimes more important than what we say. Elf - I think you are warm, funny and wonderful woman. Any encounter with you would be interesting. And your Tarot readings, almost certainly insightful and genuine, would be a bonus to that. It's your spirit that people respond to, I suspect, and part of gift of that is that you're human, just like the rest of us. So you might mess up at times and make mistakes and at other times be quite brilliant. That makes you much more the kind of person that I would want to consult as a reader. I don't want to go to God yet :).

firemaiden	18 Mar 2005
Dark Inquisitor wrote: Reading between the lines, should we then add : * assuming what the intent of others is ? If your post is hinting that I am criticizing and ridiculing, I disagree. If you are *not* aiming at specific people, then you are neither criticizing nor ridiculing, nor would there be intent to hurt. I am very glad to read that you have no such intention. Tarotbear wrote tarotbear wrote: But I can't stop laughing at Dark Inquisitor's 100% accuracy at nailing a few of the personages around here. Unfortunately, such statements usually pass over the heads of those for which it was intended. -- I'm very glad to know you had no intention of nailing anybody, and this is all in tarotbear's mind.

DarkElectric	18 Mar 2005
Jeepers, it all looks like a bunch of generalisation and personal opinion to me. I think there are probably lots of people everywhere in the world who would fit Dark Inquisitor's description. And law of averages (and human nature) being what they are, it's quite possible that each and every person out there has exhibited those selfsame qualities at one time or another. I know I sure have. That's another good reason to keep an eye on the ego. And if for some reason someone else may have noticed that those previously described qualities strike a familiar chord somewhere in that person's individual frame of reference, oh well. I really don't think anyone is being mean spirited here. All I see are general statements and personal opinions.

Alta	18 Mar 2005
I agree with DE. Those descriptions can match any of us at some times in their lives. I know I winced a couple of times. I noticed the post about not getting negative feedback. And, largely it is sort of like yearly evaluations, you almost have to go by what isn't there. I have had a couple of real doozies of negative feedback here, and honestly I wouldn't say I learned a lot from it. You have to be able to step back from yourself, and if you can't laugh, at least smile wryly.

Satori	18 Mar 2005
I don't think negative feedback works either. People just shut down. Just listen to the language around ego. She really bruised my ego... What an egomaniac! Children are egocentric... He likes to have his ego stroked. (Among other things! ;) ) and there must be more. Is there a difference between a strong sense of self and ego? I think there must be. I think Nevada was talking about that when she discussed self-esteem. Perhaps the self can be made strong and weak by ego, because at different times in our lives ego is serving different purposes. I just think that we reach a point when we begin to realize we might be enslaved by ego. And at that point depending on what you do for a living you make a decision to be careful that what you are saying at any given moment is not driven by ego.

Moongold	18 Mar 2005
elf wrote: Is there a difference between a strong sense of self and ego? I think there must be. I think Nevada was talking about that when she discussed self-esteem. Perhaps the self can be made strong and weak by ego, because at different times in our lives ego is serving different purposes. I just think that we reach a point when we begin to realize we might be enslaved by ego. And at that point depending on what you do for a living you make a decision to be careful that what you are saying at any given moment is not driven by ego. Isn't ego simply a sense of self? Without ego there would be no self. It is one of those words which get overlaiden with projections. What is wrong with knowing that you've done a good reading, with taking pride in what you've done? Nothing. I believe in the great cosmic equalizer XIV Temperance, and her buddy XI Justice. They're both great balancers and we should leave the balancing to them. Life experiences, the connections we make within our psyches and with others, and faith, are the only way we can achieve balance in the matter of reading Tarot - same as anything. (So I think :) ) I know there is an undercurrent here but I don't think it is worth spending time over. We should take the original question at face value.

Moongold	18 Mar 2005
Ego ~ Conscious thinking. Part of the mind that reacts to reality and has a sense of individuality; self-esteem; self-idealization. There are not so many sides to this coin. Are we all talking about the same thing?

jmd	18 Mar 2005
I must admit that, along with most people in the communities in which I mix most of my time, the term 'ego' refers less to that as developed out of the writings of Freud than those of Steiner. In Anthroposophical literature, Waldorf/Steiner schools and adult education sections, biodynamic farming communities, and others, the term 'ego' tends to refer to the inner core of one's humanity: the I. If I recall, the term was first used in that sense by Descartes, and then acquired various connotations as views of the nature of a human being came to be understood as either fundamentally spiritual (Steiner), or reductively material (Freud). From these (and others who also similarly use the term) comes the fundamental difference between the senses of 'Ego'. From the sense that one may impose one's will 'over' and 'onto' others appears to be what has emerged out of one way to understand 'ego'. That aspect tends to make one more self-focussed. In that sense, focussed on oneself rather than the reading-at-hand may take away from the actual reading. Self-abnegation, however, is also a denial of the wealth and riches that one may contribute. That the spiritual may at times work through one in order to reach and perhaps even transform the life of another (hopefully for the better) is both awe-inspiring and to be held with reverence. However, the responsibility rests in the being of the other in terms of their actions, their thoughts, and their feelings: ie, on the very nature and health of their EGO. Is it possible to think that one is better at something than one actually is (whether it be at reading or anything else)? Of course it is - and is that not also the process of learning that builds on previous knowledge and skills, develops confidence, and then also undermines that confidence a little as further steps in understanding, insight and learning develop? When reading through this thread, a number of other factors seem to also arise: one is a sense of mild-anti-intellectualism (if I at times use polysyllabic words, does this make me a self-indulged and self-focussed overly engrossed individual with their own sense of self that wishes to beat their view over other people's head? I certainly hope not, and would expect various contributors to skip my posts, as I may skip others too - styles, in a broad community, differs, and it is not the lowest common denominator towards which we should strive); another is that the term 'ego' is used to denote not only self-indulgence and overinflated sense of self-importance, but also, unfortunately, and by association, an encouragement to deny one's inner essential self - the Ego. Personally, I consider an inner sense of self of high importance. Sure we each falter in our own ways at different times. Certainly some of us even blame others for our falterings. But Ego, this central ME, is more than an important part in a reading: it is the essential aspect of who is interacting with another in the process.

Satori	18 Mar 2005
Hi jmd! Welcome to the ego thread! ;) I've missed these posts of yours. And here I was wondering if anyone would show up and help to define the terms and whooosh! in swoops jmd! Thanks for the post. In your usual way you clear up so many issues and create myriad others. It is so nice you stopped by.

lark	18 Mar 2005
I imagine that ego in moderation is an excellent thing. And very nessesary for a well rounded personality. When elf and I talked of ego yesterday it was in the context of reading tarot. As Umbrae has also said one of the most important things for me is the client. It's one on one, and all else fades in the distance. Is the cheery table cover straight? Is there lipstick on my teeth? Is my hair ok? I hope they like my spiffy new crystal ball? Do these cards make me look fat? All ceases to exsist when someone sits down in front of me. It's not because I'm some humble, wonderful person who is egoless. It's because it has to. Or I can't read. Because along with the shift in focus from me to the person in front of me comes the biggest ego release of all for me. Releasing the ego of my logical mind. Letting my ego go long enough to read the cards in a purely intuitive frame of mind. Trusting what comes in, speaking it, and not anazlizing it. And the reward truly has become not how right I was, but was I true to the intuition, and was the reading helpful to the person in front of me.

Moongold	19 Mar 2005
lark wrote: I imagine that ego in moderation is an excellent thing. And very nessesary for a well rounded personality. When elf and I talked of ego yesterday it was in the context of reading tarot. As Umbrae has also said one of the most important things for me is the client. It's one on one, and all else fades in the distance. Is the cheery table cover straight? Is there lipstick on my teeth? Is my hair ok? I hope they like my spiffy new crystal ball? Do these cards make me look fat? All ceases to exsist when someone sits down in front of me. It's not because I'm some humble, wonderful person who is egoless. It's because it has to. Or I can't read. Because along with the shift in focus from me to the person in front of me comes the biggest ego release of all for me. Releasing the ego of my logical mind. Letting my ego go long enough to read the cards in a purely intuitive frame of mind. Trusting what comes in, speaking it, and not anazlizing it. And the reward truly has become not how right I was, but was I true to the intuition, and was the reading helpful to the person in front of me. I think you too are a wonderful reader, lark, but I'm not sure that I understand you. I know you think of the other person when you read. That person becomes more important than anything else. Sure. But I don't see that as letting go of a healthy sense of self - that same self who possesses knowledge and the capacity to read intuitively - is necessary. The self just becomes focussed on someone else ... and gives. A healthy ego recognises the worth of self, the interdependence of self with others and the value of relationship. Anyway, I now bow out of the discussion because it's really words, their meaning and how we use them and there will rarely be agreement on that. Blessings

SunChariot	19 Mar 2005
elf wrote: I've had a couple of conversations with some of my reader friends here, and, well, the E word has come up. EGO So I'm gonna be daring and throw it out to all of you. I've told my sitters that the info I'm giving them is coming thru me, not from me...and then I've felt so happy to be told, "You're so good!!!" I've tried to figure out which deck is the "magic deck" that gives me the best readings...when it is really just that my ear is tuned in better some days than others.... And recently, when I was given feedback telling me I was accurate and that some of my reading had come true, rather than give the nod right back to the Universe, I spent some time basking in my own greatness. Ouch!!! The de-throning was inevitable. So how has the Ego bug bitten you? How did you delouse? Are you bug-free? Can we ever be bug-free? All replies welcome.........Ego is not.;) Can't say that I have had much of that kind of thing, as I read only for myself, so I don't get others telling me I am good at it. But my readings have always been very accurate for myself. I don't tend to think how great I am. I consider that my answers come from G-d (the universe....however you want to refer to it) and I think if we sincerely look for answers: pray for them Tarot for them, or any other method, then we are given what we need. When I am accurate, I tend to think how great the universe is to know everything and how kind to share it with me and give me what I need when I ask. So that my life can become easier for me. And have become more and more amazed the more I Tarot at how deep the connection is between everyone and everything in the unverse. I find the beauty of it astounding. I have always been grateful for the willingness of the universe to share with me the answers I need. And I don't ever imagine I could get accurate answers if it were not. Guess it depends on where you think the answers come from.:-) I did once read for someone and they did say it was accurate, but it is all the same for me. If I am successul, it is because the universe is kind and wants to share with me the info of what I need, and the more I Tarot, the more grateful I have always felt to live in a universe of such beauty and love and depth, that is willing to share itself with me. Bar

lark	19 Mar 2005
Moongold wrote: I think you too are a wonderful reader, lark, but I'm not sure that I understand you. I know you think of the other person when you read. That person becomes more important than anything else. Sure. But I don't see that as letting go of a healthy sense of self - that same self who possesses knowledge and the capacity to read intuitively - is necessary. The self just becomes focussed on someone else ... and gives. A healthy ego recognises the worth of self, the interdependence of self with others and the value of relationship. Anyway, I now bow out of the discussion because it's really words, their meaning and how we use them and there will rarely be agreement on that. Blessings I think we are talking about two different things Moongold. A sense of self is to me is different than ego. Ego gets in the way in a reading, it blocks the intuition because it focuses on me instead of the client. I would agree that a "sense of self" would be a good partner in a reading because it brings into the intuitive experience a wealth of life experience and wisdom. p.s. I think you're a wonderful reader too!

Nevada	19 Mar 2005
Moongold, I always enjoy reading your perspective on things. And yes, I think we do each differ in our definition of Ego. As JMD points out, Freud and Steiner had their definitions. I was going by popular use, an abbreviation. We often use the word "ego", when we really mean a distortion of it, an unhealthy projection of ego. The manifestation of ego changes, I think, with every mood and every interaction with others. Because of that, any discussion of it easily lapses into a mere exchange of words. Yes, the ego must be present in readings. Readings are interactions. Unbalanced projections of ego can get in the way, and the reader is only in control of his or her own, if at all. Nevada

Moongold	19 Mar 2005
Dear lark and Nevada ~ Thank you for your responses! How important is language and meaning! :). I know the vernacular meaning of ego and never use it because it is such a distortion of reality for me. I see the ego as *I* - the self, which needs to be strong and confident ...... and honest. Do you know what mostly impedes my reading? It is when that sense of self deserts me - the hesitation, lack of confidence - that I am paralysed in my reading. It is when my faith is at a low ebb. I believe we are intended to be strong and confident - to have a healthy sense of self and thereby a healthy ego. Like 0 Fool - Le Mat - whom I see as full of grace - people who have healthy egos are full of grace. Part of that health is realism and humility as well. I come from a country which hates "Tall Poppies". Our media and culture rip them down. You dare not step above your place and be different too, otherwise you really can ripped to shreds. So I have tried to define *ego* in other terms than the popular. I had hoped to convey in an earlier post that it is natural and healthy for beginners (and I still class myself as that) to delight in a reading which means something to the querent. It's like making a beautiful painting or photograph and we should be pleased because we may be using a remarkable tool (the Tarot) as it is intended to be used. If we retain our humility with that AND our curiosity and openness to learning the balance will come.

tarotbear	19 Mar 2005
firemaiden wrote: If you are *not* aiming at specific people, then you are neither criticizing nor ridiculing, nor would there be intent to hurt. I am very glad to read that you have no such intention. I'm very glad to know you had no intention of nailing anybody, and this is all in tarotbear's mind. Shakespeare said it very well in Hamlet - end of act two. "I have heard that guilty creatures sitting at a play have by the very cunning of the scene been so struck to the soul that presently they have proclaimed their malefactions. For murder, though it have no tongue will speak with most miraculous organ." Someone makes a comment directed at no one in particular like "Well, SOME people are just plain stupid!" - next thing you know, six people are PM-ing them to complain that the poster wrote about THEM - how dare they? I once got a rather nasty email from someone bitching at me for what I said about them ... too bad I wasn't even referring to them at all!!! 'Guilty creatures' ... oh yes, Shakespeare had it right. Sometimes the guilty complain the loudest.

Dark Inquisitor	19 Mar 2005
Let me clarify a few things. It is not wrong to enjoy good feedback and have healthy self esteem . It is unhealthy when it becomes unbalanced.( If you were sick and went to a doctor who was all miffed that you didn't compliment him, wouldn't you think there was something out of whack in the relationship?) If anyone thinks my list resembles any one person, that is not the point. The point is that all of us may at any time can fall prey to these ego imbalances. We should be watchful over ourselves. Sometimes our own minds can be our worst enemy. Continuing on with my intellectual hot air example , I see a lot of people coming here and saying they feel like they are not up to the conversation. It hurts me (YES- IT HURTS) to see them saying things like they feel they are not smart enough to join in , or see them groveling around like they are inferior or ashamed of themselves somehow. I don't find that enjoyable. It's not my particular problem and I could choose to ignore it. I am not going to go barging into everybody's threads and lecture them on manners . So it hurts to say it. And it also hurts to keep silent. There is no good option . If one keeps silent, one in a sense enables and promotes. This seemed like a good opportunity to bring up the subject . If we only hear one side of things- our own side - then we do not have complete information. Other things on that list hurt me also , I am just choosing what I thought would be the least inflammatory example. If it were my intent to nail people, I would provide quotes . And vicious pms.

tarotbear	19 Mar 2005
I am reminded of a quote from the Whales Star Trek movie where someone makes a statement that the 'message' being delivered by the probe (and is destroying the earth) cannot be understood, and Mr Spock, I think, comments that only an arrogant human would think at any message being delivered is meant for THEM - or something like that. Some people just automatically think that if there is a snub in the air, that it must be aimed at them. If that isn't ego - I don't know what else it would be! Anywho - DI makes a relevant observation. I know someone at work who says 'I'm Sorry' at the beginning or end of every sentence. They are constantly 'excusing' themselves for things like going to reach for the phone as you pick it up, or having dropped a pen on the floor. Do they think so little of themselves that they think everything they do must be compared to someone else and they had better 'excuse' themselves before the other person gets mad? Do they think so little of their own self-worth? Are they ashamed of themselves ... somehow? A definate ego imbalance.

Moongold	19 Mar 2005
Dark Inquisitor ~ I have seen you be straight forward in your contributions but I have not seen you be cruel. I think you may have been left with some tar from a different time. I have personally known you to be witty, a sharp Tarot reader and supportive to me at times at times and to others. There was a different culture in Aeclectic 18 months ago and different influences in the community. I didn't take your post today as being anything but general and maybe a little funny too. I didn't overly identify with any of it, or feel defensive. That in itself makes me see how much I've changed too. God knows we are all so different. I think that is the key. It's recognising how different people are and looking for common ground. There is enough room here for all of us - no matter how developed or fragile our sense of self is. It's the undeveloped self and the hurt or angry self that gets in the way often (I refuse to say ego :) ). This is relevant to the thread because the healthier our ego or sense of self is the less likely we are to get into battles and the better readers we become. This was the original subject of the thread. Blessings ~

ncefafn	19 Mar 2005
The problem is that free-floating criticism is impossible to refute, because of its essential passive-aggressive nature. Someone feels stung, and the immediate response of the criticiser is, "Oh, I wasn't referring to you. But what an interesting psychological comment it makes that you thought I was." This smacks of gamesmanship, which I find tiresome. So when comments like those of the Dark people and TarotBear are proffered without names, those of us who have grown up in environments where we were not made to feel special naturally assume -- rightly or wrongly -- that we are being singled out by the mean kids for cruelty. Those on one side get to feel smugly superior, those on the other get hurt, and in the end, no one wins, for strife is the harvest. This is a shame.

firemaiden	19 Mar 2005
ncefafn wrote: The problem is that free-floating criticism is impossible to refute, because of its essential passive-aggressive nature. Someone feels stung, and the immediate response of the criticiser is, "Oh, I wasn't referring to you . But what an interesting psychological comment it makes that you thought I was." This smacks of gamesmanship, which I find tiresome. So when comments like those of the Dark people and TarotBear are proffered without names, those of us who have grown up in environments where we were not made to feel special naturally assume -- rightly or wrongly -- that we are being singled out by the mean kids for cruelty. Those on one side get to feel smugly superior, those on the other get hurt, and in the end, no one wins, for strife is the harvest. This is a shame. Yes, this is exactly what I felt, reading Dark Inquisitor's list, and tarotbear's comment. Free-floating criticism is a little bit like a free-flying bullet. In the end, it may not matter who it was supposed to hit, only that it was sent out at all in the first place.

Dark Inquisitor	19 Mar 2005
Personally, I feel neither smug, nor superior. Again, names are not the point. It would have been wrong to use names . But how else to discuss these ego situations? They exist. It isn't a game, at least not to me. If I just wanted to endlessly criticize I would follow people around and do that. Ncefafn, I had no idea any of what I said might be thought to be applicable to you or would have any impact on you in any way. It's news to me, and rather startling at that. (Neither Tarotbear nor I are the mean kids, by the way. )

Dark Inquisitor	19 Mar 2005
firemaiden wrote: Yes, this is exactly what I felt, reading Dark Inquisitor's list, and tarotbear's comment. Free-floating criticism is a little bit like a free-flying bullet. In the end, it may not matter who it was supposed to hit, only that it was sent out at all in the first place. Well ok, let's have new rules then. Remain silent. Do not discuss any issues that some would rather be suppressed. Apply fake facade covert agreement daily , once in the morning , once at night. I get it now.

firemaiden	19 Mar 2005
No it is not a matter of remaining silent. I think it is quite possible to talk about tarot-related issues without criticising each other.

Moongold	19 Mar 2005
jmd wrote: When reading through this thread, a number of other factors seem to also arise: one is a sense of mild-anti-intellectualism (if I at times use polysyllabic words, does this make me a self-indulged and self-focussed overly engrossed individual with their own sense of self that wishes to beat their view over other people's head? I certainly hope not, and would expect various contributors to skip my posts, as I may skip others too - styles, in a broad community, differs, and it is not the lowest common denominator towards which we should strive); another is that the term 'ego' is used to denote not only self-indulgence and overinflated sense of self-importance, but also, unfortunately, and by association, an encouragement to deny one's inner essential self - the Ego. Personally, I consider an inner sense of self of high importance. Sure we each falter in our own ways at different times. Certainly some of us even blame others for our falterings. But Ego , this central ME , is more than an important part in a reading: it is the essential aspect of who is interacting with another in the process. I really don't want to make things more difficult and to look as if I am taking sides but let us be careful. JMD's comments could also be taken as free floating criticism. I did not take them this way personally as I did not take DI's comments personally but once I may have. The is is one of the sensitive areas of the rules which guide us and we need to thoughtful about. We make generalizations all the time. If I am hurt by such a statement I need to ask myself * Why?* Sometimes in the forums if one criticises an issue identified with a person one gets taken to task for attacking the person not the issue. How can we constuctively comment and criticise without hurting each other?

Dark Inquisitor	19 Mar 2005
I am feeling criticised. No fair.

firemaiden	19 Mar 2005
Interestingly, the subject of elf's thread was not about "ego" in the sense of overblown pride, or "hubris" or "vanity" or "vainglory" or "boastfulness" or any of these other imaginable perjorative acceptions of the word ego. No - I think she was inquiring about how we can get out of our own way, as a specific thinking individual, aware of our own self-ness; how can we release the blinders which our specific human-ness place on our vision, and tap into something larger than ourselves, in order to hear and deliver the message.

Alta	19 Mar 2005
Hi all, Well, we seem to have two threads going here. One, the original one about the effects of ego on reading tarot. And, an off-shoot of that because some members are taking exception to a detailed list of how that effect of ego could manifest. Let us go back to the original post and the original train of thoughts, which have generated some fascinating and new (to me anyway) thoughts. I prefer to just leave the thread as is and let it continue. Please take personal messages off side now, into the realm of PMs. Marion Co-moderator of Talking Tarot

Aoife	19 Mar 2005
The way I see it.... The inner me is vulnerable... I need it to be... therein lies my humanity. But life experience has taught me that I have to protect it from unwarranted attacks and seductive traps... whilst at the same time allowing reality to get through. And so I have developed...and am constantly reviewing and refining my means of protection. I think of it as a permeable membrane.... that keeps out the grosser attacks, and keeps in the baser instincts. They still get through on occasions causing me hurt and enabling me to cause hurt. But most of the time the membrane functions well and allows a manageable flow between inner self and the external world. I try to keep the membrane flexible and responsive to the situation. ...Sometimes it would be nice to dispense with it, particularly when fulsome praise is flowing my way... but I need to keep my BS monitor well honed, and keep a watchful eye on the motives of the person doing the praising. Often it says much more about them than me.... sometimes its attacking - an attempt to disempower, sometimes defensive - a fear that I might misuse my power... sometimes its a genuine, altruistic, loving act. I need to be able to discern. ...Sometimes it would be safer to make the membrane rigid and impermeable... almost like a mirror that would bounce back any unwarranted assaults. But I’m not there yet... and maybe I wouldn’t want it even if I could do it. Maybe I recognise the need to allow my inner self to sometimes get bumped and bruised a bit. I work with damaged and difficult people. Awhile ago stress, tiredness, whatever... caused my membrane to weaken. Like overstretched lycra it had lost its elasticity and ran easily into uncontrollable holes. Too much was getting through and my inner self was too exposed... I was at risk of being harmed and causing harm. I asked for help here and was advised to develop and strengthen my shielding. It worked.... too well. The damaged and difficult are particularly well attuned to such shields, they’ve encountered them often.... and respond with anger and hurt. I realised that I had reneged on a commitment to relate. Like it or not the helping relationship is not one of equals. As soon as we place ourselves in the position of helper, reader... we are taking on a commitment to give... of ourselves or through ourselves, no matter. That does not mean we should enter the relationship unprotected. There has to be trust... of ourselves.... that we can stop bad stuff getting through to and out from our inner selves. The person asking for our help is after all trusting that we will not cause harm. I can put hand on heart and say I am not particularly interested in feedback. But then I only read for a few. Sure... I’ll very occasionally chip in with an interpretation of cards and question posted here. But my real interest lies not in divination but in the reading relationship. My commitment is to relate.... to establish a flow inner-self to inner-self. What’s in it for me is the magic of relating.

Satori	19 Mar 2005
firemaiden was right, I wasn't talking about overblown pride. I merely wanted to see how people who are reading for the public and themselves handle the ego when it does begin to think it is more than a little special. Personally, I raise my kids to know what they are good at. Not from ego, but from the inner knowledge that they have gifts, and they are blessed with gifts, so acknowledge the gift, just don't be vain over it. I tell them when they need improvement, With love and sensitivity I hope. I hadn't gone way over the edge with happiness at hearing my client's liked my reading, I was being careful. But I still got a nudge from the Universe...telling me I may be treading on dangerous ground! I may be sensitive to it. But where I am right now in some ways necessitates this stance. I'm thankful for all of the responses, every single one. Thanks for bringing your passion to the discussion.

contrascarpe	19 Mar 2005
Getting into the discussion late here. Without reading all the posts, I wanted to weigh in a little. Personally I try to separate that fine line between ego (or overblown ego) and confidence. In the "real world" of working life, I feel most of us try to accomplish the same two goals - to make money so we can live, and to come away from our work day with the self-satisfaction of a job well done. There is nothing different for when I read at the store. Although the money is a lesser goal (just some pocket change to keep my tarot deck "fix" satisfied), the self-satisfaction part is alive and well, and may I say thriving. I began reading years ago just because I love tarot. However it has transformed into something much bigger. Graduating from high school those many years ago, I did a thesis in my psychology class on how the occult and psychology interrelate. May I add that I loved my Psychology class and I entertained thoughts about pursuing it professionally. I also loved history as well, but this being the days when corporate America was building up steam, neither of these disciplines was deemed "practical", so I pursued a business career. Now that I am much older and just a tad wiser, I want to turn the clocks on my "way-back machine" and become either a psychologist or a history teacher. But alas, neither will happen now. But the two of them have something in common - a sense that I can help people ..... see the fruits of my labor take shape. I don't have that sense in my current career path, and that saddens me. So, when I read for someone and they shower me with praise, yes, it is good for my ego because I am accomplishing something that I can't do in my daily "corporate" life. I feel like I am making a difference. And let's face it, reading the cards is not that much different than something a psychologist would do. We help people see things from a different perspective. We give them a shoulder to cry on. We give them hope. If that is ego, I don't see anything wrong with it. Dan

Moonbow*	19 Mar 2005
Aoife wrote: I can put hand on heart and say I am not particularly interested in feedback. But then I only read for a few. Sure... I’ll very occasionally chip in with an interpretation of cards and question posted here. But my real interest lies not in divination but in the reading relationship. My commitment is to relate.... to establish a flow inner-self to inner-self. What’s in it for me is the magic of relating. Aoife this is exactly how I feel. I am not interested in feedback either or in knowing whether I am right or wrong because mostly people cannot give an honest, instant response. If something I say relates in some way and instantly the querant knows what that may be then it is gratifying, but I am also aware of the fact that what appears to be the connection may not be. It could relate to an event which has not taken place yet. Some ego must surely be present in order for us all to think we can do this, to read Tarot cards and speak of what, at times can be personal situations, to others (in some cases complete strangers). But in my opinion the most important aspect of reading is to relate on a one to one basis with another person, to have the intent to help them in some way and to have empathy with them. The membrane too :) I like. I think of this as a person's aura. A whole and complete aura is strong. Negative feelings will only penetrate if there are holes in it and the difficulty is keeping it whole and repairing it when cracks appear. So as regards to reading for others we should surely have some confidence in our ability to read, but also confidence in knowing that whatever resonates (or doesn't) with the querent we are rignt to do the reading. They have to make of it what they will.

Umbrae	19 Mar 2005
zorya once said, “If we are too attached to a perceived outcome, we may miss opportunities, or what is truly meant for us.” You want to learn how the cards speak to and for you, not how your ego speaks for the cards. The reason many folks should not read tarot, is the inability to shut down ego. When a sitter begins shuffling the cards – all those, “What deck? What spread? What do I wear? What is the meaning of…” questions are the ego talking… It is difficult to learn that neither the cards nor you are an issue. The sitter, our client is the issue– it is all about them. Many don’t take a chance! They feel they might make a mistake! And that is the reason why many should learn to read for others. To learn to shut down the ego – and operate without self – and put themselves at risk. The professional student, the pragmatist, will tell you that it is all about the learning process, that pre-digested knowledge gained from books and the insight of others is the learning process. They will equate an un-measurable, or un-observable event with a learned process, and disallow even the possibility that such an event could occur without a priori information, by which to define the event. Such an attitude disallows anything grander than the human experience, and holds us prisoners in this skin - calling that alone, life - the sum total of all. Although sometimes, if you are not listening, and ‘reading in’ what you want as opposed to ‘listening to’ what they are saying, the cards may become a little forceful… Perhaps there are life situations that need our attention...sometimes different decks appear to speak different languages. The world is a huge place. Filled with people who need each one of us - as we are - and we have much to share - but do we share enough? I dunno, do you think we love enough?

Moongold	19 Mar 2005
Umbrae ~ I think there are many people who agree with you. I, for one, simply use different language. Let me quote four times from things that have been said in this thread: Aoife wrote: But my real interest lies not in divination but in the reading relationship. My commitment is to relate.... to establish a flow inner-self to inner-self. What’s in it for me is the magic of relating. lark wrote: All ceases to exsist when someone sits down in front of me. It's not because I'm some humble, wonderful person who is egoless. It's because it has to. Or I can't read. Because along with the shift in focus from me to the person in front of me comes the biggest ego release of all for me. Releasing the ego of my logical mind. Letting my ego go long enough to read the cards in a purely intuitive frame of mind. Trusting what comes in, speaking it, and not anazlizing it. And the reward truly has become not how right I was, but was I true to the intuition, and was the reading helpful to the person in front of me. Moongold wrote: But I don't see that as letting go of a healthy sense of self - that same self who possesses knowledge and the capacity to read intuitively - is necessary. The self just becomes focused on someone else ... and gives. Moongold wrote: What's more, often the accuracy or not of a reading is hard to measure. Sometimes readings relate to the future and sometimes they are about personal development which takes time, sometimes years, to integrate. So more often than not it is the *engagement* itself which matters. The fact that we spend time and thought in *being with* people, whatever their issue or question is, is sometimes more important than what we say. I agree with Aoife that the relationship – the “being with” – is the most important thing. Contrascarpe was saying the same thing. The relationship is the conduit for the reading but in itself it is critically important. I have only done 20 face to face readings so far but progressively, in each of those, how I connect with the Querent is the most important thing. 30 minutes or 6o minutes is a long time, plenty of time to establish a relationship. I have worked in mental health and the alcohol and drug field for sixteen years, not as a therapist I need to stress. Although I am not a therapist I know that the most important aspect of working with others is relationship. Even though my job is not therapy but HR I know also that the most important part is how I connect with others - how I support others to find their own solutions, to do their jobs. I have seen excellent work done with very damaged people and it is often hard to know what works and what doesn’t but most agree that often it is simply the “being with” – the relationship and sometimes the attachment. That is, both giving and receiving, but of course much more than that. Moongold

Nevada	19 Mar 2005
Umbrae wrote: Although sometimes, if you are not listening, and ‘reading in’ what you want as opposed to ‘listening to’ what they are saying, the cards may become a little forceful… Great point, Umbrae. I've caught myself doing this. I think it's also important to be able to let go of the reading when you're done, and let the sitter make their own decision how to incpororate it into their life, or even whether they believe it or not. Read and then let go, relinquish control over the outcome. I think we can remain empathetic while we do so, but let the sitter's free will take over. Umbrae wrote: The world is a huge place. Filled with people who need each one of us - as we are - and we have much to share - but do we share enough? I dunno, do you think we love enough? We do but it's too often conditional. All those strings we like to add can make love a sticky thing. We need to be willing to listen and support and then love the other just as they are, or as they choose to change. Nevada

tmgrl2	19 Mar 2005
Nevada wrote: I think it's also important to be able to let go of the reading when you're done, and let the sitter make their own decision how to incpororate it into their life, or even whether they believe it or not. Read and then let go, relinquish control over the outcome. I think we can remain empathetic while we do so, but let the sitter's free will take over. Nevada Nevada...you have said so beautifully what I feel to be true for me of ego and Tarot. The sitter is going to take over anyhow, and how that is done, will not be up to us once the reading is finished (in most cases..) terri

Moongold	19 Mar 2005
This morning I found myself asking the perenniel question, which Umbrae often reminds us about : Why do I read Tarot? I feel compelled to read. This gift of Tarot came almost three years ago and the most obvious thing to do with it is to: 1. Use it as tol for personal growth 2. Read for others. If you truthfully answer the question Why do I read? you will pick up on your own motivation and your own sense of self in this. But I think it is a question that we may need to revisit again and again. Again, I prefer not to use the word *Ego* because people simply mean different things by it.

Satori	19 Mar 2005
Umbrae wrote: zorya once said, “If we are too attached to a perceived outcome, we may miss opportunities, or what is truly meant for us.” I love this! Yes! There is in the relationship found with the sitter, a lesson or piece of valuable information for the reader. This has been shown to me repeatedly. I would hate to miss this "lesson" because I was waiting for it, or because I was so busy listening to my own self talk! Like lark, so far this hasn't happened because I've been keeping the focus where it belongs, on the sitter! Quote: You want to learn how the cards speak to and for you, not how your ego speaks for the cards. This is great. How do the cards speak for me. That is a great question to answer, and that is the question for me that speaks to the deck issue. Because different decks speak differently to me. Quote: The world is a huge place. Filled with people who need each one of us - as we are - and we have much to share - but do we share enough? I dunno, do you think we love enough? This is profound! AS WE ARE strikes me. This means with ego. Without ego. Before enlightenment, during enlightenment, in the bathroom, and swearing in traffic. This means making mistakes, reading Old Maid cards and passing them off as the latest oracle...this means...as we are! W\o/W ( Do you really mean as we are Umbrae???? ;) }) :)

firemaiden	19 Mar 2005
elf wrote: This is profound! AS WE ARE strikes me. This means with ego. Without ego. Before enlightenment, during enlightenment, in the bathroom, and swearing in traffic. This means making mistakes, reading Old Maid cards and passing them off as the latest oracle...this means...as we are! hahah...swearing in traffic! (Watch out I have a New York Driver's License, you know what that means...it means, license to roll down your window and say... no sorry I can't repeat that here) I love this! As we are! accepting human foibles and weaknesses too, the quirks that make us individual.

Fulgour	19 Mar 2005
Dark Inquisitor wrote: Here are some red flag ego warning signs: * Readers who claim 100% accuracy or say they are never wrong. I feel partly responsible for this particular observation, because awhile back I sent Dark Inquisitor an e-mail with a link to the following website, and it's not a joke! Certification Thoughts ...based on the writings of DenElder... © Dec. 2003 "The I.S.H.T.A.R. Org." http://denelder.com/ishtar/ishtar7.html Scroll all the way down to the bottom and you will find: The 'Grandfather', 'Grandmother', 'Grand Master', 'Grandmaster', 'Sage'... when truly awarded for ability, are the elite level of the Tarot Community. When accounted for actual achievement they have done it all and usually over an entire lifetime, that counts by the decades. Their ability is nearly 100% accuracy! We often find them leading international groups with broad recognition and respect for their abilities. * Who is this I.S.H.T.A.R. you ask? The Management ...based on the writings of DenElder... © Nov. 2003 "The I.S.H.T.A.R. Org." http://denelder.com/ishtar/ishtar1.html

psychic sue	20 Mar 2005
Fulgour wrote: The 'Grandfather', 'Grandmother', 'Grand Master', 'Grandmaster', 'Sage'... when truly awarded for ability, are the elite level of the Tarot Community. When accounted for actual achievement they have done it all and usually over an entire lifetime, that counts by the decades. Their ability is nearly 100% accuracy! We often find them leading international groups with broad recognition and respect for their abilities. * Who is this I.S.H.T.A.R. you ask? The Management ...based on the writings of DenElder... © Nov. 2003 "The I.S.H.T.A.R. Org." http://denelder.com/ishtar/ishtar1.html I don't like these terms at all "grandmother, sage, grandmaster" - of course these people's experience and knowledge should be recognised, but saying nearly 100% accurate can't be right. I believe the cards show us only influences around the querant, and it is then up to the querant to make what they will of them. The CARDS are 100% accurate in terms of influences around people. Its how we interpret that requires the skill. Setting people apart from others is divisive - why do we have to do that? Can't we just say these people have a lot of knowledge and wisdom and leave it at that? Just edited to add another thought - sometimes, the tarot requires only the simplest of interpretation. Some people don't want to know what the universe grand plan for them is.

Fudugazi	20 Mar 2005
elf wrote: So how has the Ego bug bitten you? How did you delouse? Are you bug-free? Can we ever be bug-free? Better late than never. I'm answering this before reading other answers (that's the E in mE ;)) - It bit me on the day of my birth, no doubt. Or the day I did my first Tarot reading, if we are only talking about Tarot Ego. I have been trying to tell it, politely, to go away. Well, it used to be polite, nowadays it's more like - "begone, you!" (which might in itself be a sign of Ego: one of the problem with Big Bro E is that she (changes sex and) likes FIRMLY to pretend to get rid of himself. Pretends to be helpful, you know.) - I delouse like I bathe, once a week whether I need it or not (sorry, couldn't resist - Papa used to tell me about how he and his brothers took the ceremonial once-a-week bath - pity the last ones in! But apparently it kept the Ego down). A good delousing method is a reading at the end of which the querent says: "Hmm yeah. No sure what all this means." It happened to me the other day, E fled like a whimpering monkey that had tried to take on a deft snake. - I am not bug free, as must be apparent by now. But I live in hopes. That is, the part of me that isn't riddled with E lives in hope it will be clean one day (that leads me to another question: is Ego a Drug or a Disease?) One thing to remember about an ego-free reading is - make conversation not monologue. I'm not G-d, I'm just a tarot reader. If the querent is looking cross-eyed, I'm doing something wrong, there's no point brazening through. Humility is the best delouser in those moments. - Can I ever be bug-free - ah, I dream of such a day. That is, the part of me that is neither diseased nor a drug addict, nor full of bugs. There are moments when...but to say - I am E-free - is to call up Ego, so... What I love about conversations on Ego, is that we never know who is speaking. Crafty old thing!

ncefafn	20 Mar 2005
Quote: Their ability is nearly 100% accuracy! Nearly. They're like the Ivory Soap of fortune tellers -- 99 & 99/100% pure.

Fudugazi	20 Mar 2005
firemaiden wrote: Part of me thinks it is equally dangerous to "believe in" the accuracy of the cards, as to believe in the accuracy of one's own reading of them. Who knows what the person in front of you is really going through?. I think it is important to remain conscious and respectful at all times of the element of chaos, of sheer unknowability of events and of people - and not only of the person we read for, but also for ourselves. There will always be a part of the other, a part of ourselves, out of our reach, reserved for infinity, and if we claim to be able to know it, and own it, it will reach around and surprise us big time The other day I was given a big lesson in humility. About three weeks ago my nephew of 8, who is interested in the tarot, wanted a reading. He asked me: "am I going to have an accident?" I said that was not the kind of question I answered, please ask another. By then I was a bit jangled by his first question, not to say cross. He asked "will I go to Disneyland in March?" I thought it a silly question, but read for him, for the sake of peace. It was a crap reading. Looking back, I can see the cards were saying he was getting a rotten reading, but I interpreted them as - no you won't and adults around you are lying (true, they were, only it was me, not his parents who were being dishonest). He looked downcast and I felt like heel, so I read for April and told him he'd be going then. He told his mother all this - she had promised him the trip to Disneyland (Paris). Last week-end, Sarah, my sister called and laughingly told me - "well, I just wanted to tell you, your tarot was wrong - we're in Disneyland!" I answered that I was very glad and that it was I, not the cards, who had been wrong. So yes - we must take our readers seriously, no matter how strange their questions are (even if we don't feel able to answer the question), and not assume we know all, or understand what they are going through. Maybe I should have answered the first question Alex had ("am I going to have an accident?"), despite its negativity. At the very least, I should have taken his Disneyland question seriously, as it mattered to him and he was doubting. I hope I haven't broken his faith in tarot - when I see him at Purim I shall have a little chat with him and tell him it was my poor reading and my bad mood that got in the way...

Fudugazi	20 Mar 2005
tmgrl2 wrote: Now one of my other stepdaughters (the one that I know really has "tolerated" me...with respect....for 30 years...but who has never fully accepted that I have married her dad) ) is hinting that she wants a reading....I can't read for her, so I will have to find a way out. I had to ask Terri - why can't you read for her?

Fudugazi	20 Mar 2005
Umbrae wrote: “For Entertainment Purposes Only” states that I’m not legally responsible for your actions. It alleviates accountability. You can say it legally, you may have to post it to be legal, but please please don’t ever feel that way in your heart. Oh man, Umbrae, I'm so glad you wrote that! That sentence has been bothering me for a while (no offence, Tarotbear -I know you mean well by it -and I've never seen that notice in Europe). We are responsible and accountable. Maybe not legally (how would we quantify damages, for one?) but ethically, we are. We could do unnamed damage if we are not careful (I am still hoping I didn't mess up my relationship with my nephew :(). As others have said, it's not about praise, though praise now and then can be warming, and it's not about being right, either. We can be right a thousand times and still muck up a reading, because we say things the querent isn't able to hear. And yet we must be truthful, not wrap things up in candy floss... My chief concern is to get it right emotionally, to hit the spot that will help the querent move on. I could study all my life and not be certain of 100% accuracy in that, because a tiny slip of mood, Ego slipping in, will cut the connection. oh, it's a dog's life for those who aren't Maeve the Empress...

ncefafn	20 Mar 2005
Maeve has been wondering when someone would get around to mentioning her name. Now that Helvetica has proven herself worthy, Maeve has deigned to grace this forum with her picture. Bow down before the Majestic and Magnificent Maeve! To keep this on-topic, Maeve wishes all her subjects to know that she does Tarot readings with the Fey and Druidcraft, and you should be so lucky to have her ego involved!

Fudugazi	20 Mar 2005
What a Gorgeous Cat! How splendidly proportioned! How truth, beauty and intelligence shimmer out of her thick silky fur! (ok, can I have my Druidcraft reading with Maeve's ego??)

Fulgour	20 Mar 2005
Thanks "Not Cool Enough For A Funky Name" for the introduction to Maeve! LOL :) Fulgour (ever so unegotistically, albeit archaically, spelled with a "u")

Moongold	20 Mar 2005
ncefafn wrote: To keep this on-topic, Maeve wishes all her subjects to know that she does Tarot readings with the Fey and Druidcraft, and you should be so lucky to have her ego involved! I am SO glad Maeve feels comfortable with her ego. I would hate to have reading with anyone who didn't! She looks as though she has a healthy one :).

psychic sue	22 Mar 2005
Now a cat, yes I would bow down to a cat! :)

tmgrl2	22 Mar 2005
One other thing I thought of as I reread this thread... I have been practicing some responses lately....When/if a reader gives me all kinds of praise...or whether they tell me things didn't make sense... I try to say something like... "Well, hopefully, as you ponder what was said...you may find something that will prove helpful to you....." If it's praise...I'm working on saying ..."It's good to hear you were pleased with the reading, but more importantly, I hope there was something there that will be of guidance to you...or offer hope in some area." Then I try to let the outcome go. It's about doing my best in the moment of time the reading occurs and then letting go of the outcome and letting life itself guide the outcome of the reading. Just me...and where I am going. Years ago, when I was given praise for something, I felt quite "important" about it. If I was criticized, it put me low. This used to happen especially with parents and families...I was much more "dependent" on what they said. As I worked in my field, it became less important to me if they were "thrilled" with my work, or if the felt I wasn't making enough progress with the child or family member. Sometimes I could address specific concerns about the remediation techniques or evaluation results or long-term expectations...but when it came to words of general "praise" or "dissatisfaction," it became less and less important. Now, neither praise nor criticism, send me in either direction....I simply take them in and then move quickly away....if there is something in the cricticism that can help me change for the better, then I am grateful for that. If I get merely praise, I'll never really know in the long run anyhow what the outcome becomes. Working with children and adult clients in my profession, when I was younger....I also felt so deflated if I felt a session wasn't up to my expectations....and felt good about it if I felt good afterwards. Then I realized that the two don't necessarily correlate. I could feel good about a session, but that didn't mean it was "successful" in terms of the client(s). Conversely, if I didn't feel good about it, it didn't mean that there wasn't something good that came of it for the student or adult. Again, it's about working at one's craft and doing the best in the moment and letting results go... Sometimes after doing a quick self-evaluation about what you might do differently, or after taking in some feedback from a client about what THEY might prefer in terms of certain elements of a session....one can change or add things in an effort to "grow" toward being the best we can be, but rejoicing in the process itself. Progress, not perfection. Process, not outcome. My goals. Much of what I did in my work, now applies for me during the reading event. I can only change me anyhow, not someone else. That's the role of the "other." It's what the "other" does with what they get that helps them grow or change. That all takes time and I'm not usually around to know or see that. I have had some great surprises of meeting students that I had when they were very young...They have come to me as adults and told me things about how I treated them when they were little. One child I found especially delightful when he was eight years old, was the nemesis of his teacher and a classroom terror....I loved him! He was bright, but today would probably be diagnosed with attentional/emotional difficulties. Anyhow, a couple of years ago, he came up to me, all 6feet 6inches of him...He was now a teacher in our high school. We got to talking. He asked me if he was really a nightmare kid...I laughed and told him how much I enjoyed him. He said, "You always believed in me. You believed I could get better. You believed I could learn. Most of the others didn't." He had no reason to tell me that since we didn't even work with same children in our district. He could simply have kept quiet. terri

Nevada	22 Mar 2005
tmgrl2 wrote: Progress, not perfection. Process, not outcome. My goals. I like your goals, Terri! tmgrl2 wrote: One child I found especially delightful when he was eight years old, was the nemesis of his teacher and a classroom terror....I loved him! He was bright, but today would probably be diagnosed with attentional/emotional difficulties. Anyhow, a couple of years ago, he came up to me, all 6feet 6inches of him...He was now a teacher in our high school. We got to talking. He asked me if he was really a nightmare kid...I laughed and told him how much I enjoyed him. He said, "You always believed in me. You believed I could get better. You believed I could learn. Most of the others didn't." He had no reason to tell me that since we didn't even work with same children in our district. He could simply have kept quiet. Others saw him breaking rules, you saw the whole person. I think a big part of ego unbalance is that of judgement. It's when we judge others that we're in danger of thinking we're better than others. I've known so many people who were sort of underdogs, no one else liked them because of some quirk that made them difficult to be around. These have been some of the most rewarding friendships I've had. (Not all, but most--there were a few complete nightmares.) I think we miss a lot when we judge people. So much behavior we don't like is simply the person's outer crust. Perfection, or even normality (whatever that is--fitting in, I suppose) isn't all it's cracked up to be. Nevada

firemaiden	22 Mar 2005
Terri that's a happy story. :) You know, it reminds me that there is a difference between ego-stroking praise, and acknowledgment. The space of acknowledgement was a buzz term in e.s.t. (human potential group thingy from the 70's, before you all were born })). When you are in the space of ackowledgement with someone, you can see the part of God in them, and all ego-barriers have crumbled. Feedback for a reading doesn't have to be dangerous ego-feeding flattery, it can be acknowledgment.

tmgrl2	22 Mar 2005
firemaiden wrote: Terri that's a happy story. :) You know, it reminds me that there is a difference between ego-stroking praise, and acknowledgment . The space of acknowledgement was a buzz term in e.s.t. (human potential group thingy from the 70's, before you all were born })). When you are in the space of ackowledgement with someone, you can see the part of God in them, and all ego-barriers have crumbled. Feedback for a reading doesn't have to be dangerous ego-feeding flattery, it can be acknowledgment. How beautifully said, fm...I needed a whole story to say what you mentioned so in such simple terms.... Acknowledgment... I use that for feelings...we can't control the ones that arise, but I try to acknowledge them, so I can move forward. I have a very close friend (actually several...LOL)...but we live in that space....it's something you feel...different from ego-stroking praise, as you said. It builds trust, as well. terri

tmgrl2	22 Mar 2005
Nevada wrote: I like your goals, Terri! Others saw him breaking rules, you saw the whole person. Nevada Yes...again, said in simple, concise terms....others did see him as breaking rules. I saw a bright, young boy with a gleam in his eyes and the most impish sense of humor. I knew he would go far. terri There have been many children over the years like this boy, (young adult) now. I have loved them all and looked for what was loving and special within. I realize how blessed I have been to do the work I did. My cup is never empty.

The Letting Go of Ego..... thread was originally posted on 18 Mar 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.