superstitious?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 24 Mar 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Danacafe	24 Mar 2005
Funny enough..i went to purchase a purple cloth to wrap up my tarots.My friends who accompanied me frowned, they insisted that im simply being superstitious to believe in tarots and all..anyone of you encountered the same situation? I mean.. they believe in ghost stories and all...why not tarots..where one uses energy and the subconscious mind? Some even claims that tarot is evil or "corrupt ones soul". Not many believe in aura reading too...i wonder why...maybe our society have become too "scientific" ?

Ahria	24 Mar 2005
I think that alot of people will disclaim something works if it is the unknown to them. I think that it not the majority because I find people are looking more and more for explanations for the spiritual side of life, and most of this is not going to be scientific. The other observation I have and this is only my opinion, is that most tarot readers have a strong faith in something greater. Just having that faith requires us to believe in something that is not scientific so believing in the tarot is a small jump. Now on the other hand I think there is a scientific sort of explanation as well, all humans are beings of energy and that energy affects everything around us so in logical terms it would have to affect something like cards as well. The same would go for auras.

The Dreamer	24 Mar 2005
I'm "scientific", and I use tarot. I think many people just don't know what to make of what they haven't had experience with. So they make up theories about it. Those theories are superstitions themselves. "Superstition: a belief justified by neither reason nor evidence nor any religious canon". I like my beliefs to be justifed by evidence and reason (and not religious canon). I approach tarot with reason, and I get evidence of its usefulness. (I don't know why it works, though.) I'd love to find a more scientific way to read the human aura- mainly because people can't believe something just because someone else says they sense it. People have all kinds of contradictory and unexamined ideas and feelings in their psyches. Sure, some people who believe in ghosts may want to dismiss other possible paranormal phenomena. That may be contradictory, or not. We're free to explore. Don't let them get you down. :) And don't blame people's superstitions on science.

Eco74	24 Mar 2005
Using Tarot can sometimes be explained as "empiric studies" so science is only an intent away. For me, tarot has gotten too many things right and is just too 'spot-on' in helping me evolve mentally to Not be a functional, working tool that has an effect on the world and the people in it. Sure, I could go the "scientific route" and set up excercises and tests to see how Tarot fits into the pure scientific world of precise test and consistent results, but since Tarot has a different type of energy, it makes more sense to me to study the Tarot on Tarots own terms. While the archetypes and numerology-color-symbology-etc-meanings are prevalent, what the cards have to say varies to such great extent based on the querent, the question, the general feeling towards the situation etc. there is no way to really set up a proper test to build a scientific report on. That would require a large number of identical persons with identical lives and identical questions, concerns and ways of handling situations - and that simply does not exist. So instead I trust the Tarot to tell me what I need, just as I trust scientific tests to tell me what I need, but I will not take the same type of questions to both places since I much prefer to ask the most valid "oracle" rather than toss the question about to places where I do not feel the answer will carry weight.

Milfoil	24 Mar 2005
I have to admit to being a real sceptic in the past about a lot of things, I come from a scientific and arts background (odd mixture I know) and the Tarot fascinated me because of the imagery but some people have some very set beliefs which are almost impossible to penetrate. Quote: Some even claims that tarot is evil or "corrupt ones soul". A hangover from Victorian Christian dogma which is a real shame since the earliest decks (Visconti Sforza) are predominantly religious in their imagery and tone. I have even read somewhere that the surviving decks from that time have holes in them where it is surmised one may have been pinned or hung up each day as a meditational device! You can't force people to take an interest but wait until they have a crisis in their life and start looking around for answers . . . . funny how a good old shake up can re-awaken our sleeping spirit. (speaks from recent experience here!)

spoonbender	24 Mar 2005
I think Tarot just has a bad reputation because, let's face it, most of the people who use it aren't exactly very down-to-earth or rational. I mean, I read a LOT of things on this board that I think smell like BS (for example, people who think that when they loose something, it's a sign of some higher being). So naturally, people who don't really know what Tarot is about, will be very sceptical. Personally, I don't have a problem with people who are sceptical, as long as they stay open minded, so that I can explain what Tarot is really about. Spoon

Fulgour	24 Mar 2005
spoonbender wrote: I think Tarot just has a bad reputation because, let's face it, most of the people who use it aren't exactly very down-to-earth or rational. I mean, I read a LOT of things on this board that I think smell like BS (for example, people who think that when they loose something, it's a sign of some higher being). So naturally , people who don't really know what Tarot is about, will be very sceptical. Personally, I don't have a problem with people who are sceptical, as long as they stay open minded, so that I can explain what Tarot is really about. You mention people who do not know what the Tarot is really about, and refer to them as sceptical, and then say they are not a problem "as long as they stay open minded" so you can explain what Tarot is really about. This sounds very exciting. ~Please explain it to me! :)

Fudugazi	24 Mar 2005
Well, in my experience, most people who look down on tarot have NO idea what it is, and might never have seen a tarot card or met a tarot card reader - even one who is not down to earth (and Spoon, I think you are wrong, I've known many tarot card readers and only a handful who are completely in outer space. Believing in a higher being and that He/She might speak through signs is not BS, it's as old and as new as the trees. Hum, did you mention open-minded? ;)) So when someone gives me that look when I mention that I read the tarot, I shrug it off, or, if I like the person, I say - do you know tarot? No? It's very intersting you know, fascinating, in fact! An entire world in a pack of cards (or in a grain of sand...)

Nina*	24 Mar 2005
Sorry, but what does BS mean :confused:

Fulgour	24 Mar 2005
Ninamagic wrote: Sorry, but what does BS mean :confused: :joke: StiercScheiße :joke:

spoonbender	24 Mar 2005
Fulgour wrote: You mention people who do not know what the Tarot is really about, and refer to them as sceptical, and then say they are not a problem "as long as they stay open minded" so you can explain what Tarot is really about. This sounds very exciting. ~Please explain it to me! :) Yes, I think (most) people are sceptical about Tarot because they think it's some weird, magical mumbo-jumbo. And I don't know about you, but I don't think that's what Tarot is about. So THAT's what I would try to explain. Do you see what I mean, Fulgour? And hopefully, if they are open-minded, they won't stick to their prejudices :) . Helvetica wrote: Believing in a higher being and that He/She might speak through signs is not BS, it's as old and as new as the trees. Hum, did you mention open-minded? Helvetica: I'm sorry if I expressed myself the wrong way, but I really wasn't saying that believing in a higher being is BS (I personally believe in a higher being), nor that believing in signs is BS. I was saying that I personally think it's BS to believe that when you loose something, it's necessarily due to some higher being. Yes, I mentioned being open-minded. But you know, I did read threads like those with an open mind, but even after reading those viewpoints, I am NOT convinced. Spoon PS: Nina, BS means BullShit :) .

Nina*	24 Mar 2005
Thank you Spoon and Fulgour :D

Fudugazi	24 Mar 2005
spoonbender wrote: Yes, I mentioned being open-minded. But you know, I did read threads like those with an open mind, but even after reading those viewpoints, I am NOT convinced. And there's no reason why you should be - open-minded does not mean gullible :) But still, when I lost my favorite pen last year, then found it again....ah, a sign! ;)

graylensman	24 Mar 2005
I just finished listening to "The Mists of Avalon", and there's a passage in the book that I think pertains here: When Gallahad and Lancelot find the Grail in the Christian chapel on Avalon and want to take it back to the "real" world, Morgaine prevents them, saying there should be at least one mystery left in the world for men to aspire to understanding. Note that it is "aspire to"... And knowing the why of something isn't always necessary to the how of it: many people take advantage of bar code scanners, CD players, smoke detectors, and computers without understanding what e=mc(squared) means. I am looking to learn Tarot to explore that region where the heart makes sense and the mind can't follow...

Fudugazi	24 Mar 2005
I love that graylensman! Yes, indeed, we must leave space for mystery, for the uncanny and what happens between the conscious and the unconscious mind, and between us and the universe. And I should have known better than to laugh at the gods: I have lost my favourite pen again!

The Dreamer	24 Mar 2005
If something is really mysterious, we won't have to "leave space" for it. There's nothing wrong with skepticism, or with trying to learn more about things. Or with belief in a higher power, if that's what people need- as long as that belief isn't taken to be something that it isn't (such as proveable). The problem with these higher power ideas is that many of them do technically fall under the defintion of superstition. The mysterious is a lot more durable than people seem to think it is. It's not just a matter of pens being lost and grail legends. There are real living mysteries in the world. Many of those have to do with the human body. It isn't even known preciscely how aspirin really works. Things are complex. Some can be approached and explored through scientific means. Others might not be easily explored that way. "Open minded"? Words used by a person trying to convince someone else of their own point of view, or by someone waiting to be convinced. (Why should we have to convince each other of anything? If something can be shown, then let it be shown. And we can explore for ourselves.) Maybe "willing to explore" would be a better phrase. If I found the grail, I'd bring it back to the real world. ;) I don't think people need artificial mysteries. As for exploring that region where the heart makes sense and the mind can't follow- I don't need tarot to explore that. I'm using it to explore whatever is beyond both mind and heart. The truly durable mysterious which keeps me following it.

Dark Inquisitor	25 Mar 2005
Ninamagic wrote: Sorry, but what does BS mean :confused: Just like Tarot, the true meaning of BS is often highly individual and sometimes inexplicable . One person's BS is another person's gospel truth. Meanwhile, back at the original post -- If I had such a friend who was insisting I was being superstitious about tarot , it would say to me that they were a shopping downer in general and would not be accompanying me in the future. It may be that tarot is just not widely and easily accessible enough yet to be thought of as benign and credible. It is true one can buy decks easily, but many can't really stand the learning process. Others cannot stand the challenge to their religious beliefs and fears, and/or scientific beliefs and fears. In any case, one cannot force the process or the question . Just smile secretly and keep walking.

Fudugazi	25 Mar 2005
The Dreamer wrote: If something is really mysterious, we won't have to "leave space" for it. There's nothing wrong with skepticism, or with trying to learn more about things. I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. Many scientists - the good ones at least - have infinite respect for the mysterious, but that does not stop them trying to plumb it, all the time respecting it. I have a botanist friend here in Geneva. A walk in nature with him is a strange moment - he knows so much about everything around us! And one day I asked - can you still see nature as a mysterious place? He answered- of course - I know how to describe it, I know the genetic make-up of that oak, but I'm still awed by how it all fits together, by the patterns and rythms we find in a single wood. I remember watching all the documentaries on how the Lord of th Rings was made - all the special effects, the size thing, etc. But it hasn't taken away from my enjoyment of, or awe at the film. I suppose making space for the mysterious is another way of saying supending disbelief, like you do at the theatre or the cinema. It's not an articificial way of keeping yourself from pursuing knowledge. Some people are incapable of it. I have a cousin who simply can't. He has no space for the mysterious in his life, everything is rational, and he is the poorer for it. And his children! Not allowed to believe in Father Christmas or fairies, or anything. Fed a diet of facts. One of them is becoming seriously mentally affected by it. Some people never leave space for the mystery in their everyday life. They can't see a flower any more or the smile of a child. They drink to excess in glitzy bars to have fun, and close off from any inner voice. They are stressed and unhappy until they finally crack. Then they might run after angels to try and fill the hole left by the flower that no longer blooms for them. So yes, I think we do need to "make space" for the mysterious. Every day. It should be a discipline like brushing one's teeth or practicing the piano or writing a poem (and try palying thepiano or writing a poem without leaving space for the mysterious!). And I think parents who tell their young children the fairies don't exist should be forced to spend several hours a day with the Faeries Oracle and never use the word "fact" ;). Falling in love is mysterious. We might be able what happens to the brain synapses when we do, but no-one can explain falling in love. Maybe that is the Grail. In which case, I wish you all luck with our quest! (unless you've already found the Grail - in which case- don't leave it out in the rain :cool: ) We have different needs and pursuits in life. Scientists explain the world one way and poets in another. I believe we need both. Tarot is a hybrid - it belongs with the scientists and the poets. And that is its own special brand of mystery. Btw I'm flattered you put my pen in the same breath as the Grail! I love it, but I am not so presumptuous. I don't think I am superstitious - scatty, certainly! :)

The Dreamer	25 Mar 2005
The thing is, I just don't view divination as an act of imagination, which requires suspension of disbelief. I've gotten too many correct future predictions which had not a bit to do with my own imagination or belief to be able to view it in that way. Surely we need both science and poetry. Sometimes they can even come from the same person. And of course tarot can belong to both scientists and poets, and to anyone else as well. But I don't view divination as being about either science or poetry. I see it as something different, and beyond both of them. I certainly agree about good science being about respect for as well as exploration of the mysterious- I view science itself as being fueled by that passion to discover. There's always more to know, and it remains tantalizing. I think the problem comes in when scientists forget the role of the observer- their own biases, their own subjectivity- and the subjectivity of other humans, when humans are being studied. There is a difference between things from the observer point of view and the subject point of view. That's a big difference, when talking about love. Knowing all of the biochemistry of the dyamics of love wouldn't diminish its power for me- but knowing those things also is nothing like feeling them. (And feeling the human aura is a totally different experience from seeing it, or from hearing about it.) Then, from a totally different perspective- love can be seen as spiritual, as something beyond the people who experience it; as something trascendental. (I do think that the grail legends are really all about the quest for love, at their base. However, I see them as revolving around the male perspective, so I doubt I'll find "the grail" myself. ;) I think the mystery of love from my point of view needs to be described by a legend which either hasn't been written, or I haven't seen yet.) Your point about people being starved for the mysterious is surely a valid one. But I think it comes from a false view which people have about a dichotomy between what is "serious" or "factual" and what is "fun" or "spiritual". And the examples of seeing a flower or the smile of a child seem less about mystery and more about beauty, or simple appreciation. The mysterious is really really mysterious to me. It's probably the most important thing in my life. I don't like to see things which really aren't mysterious (like people's emotions, or beauty) being treated as though they are "mysterious". That just seems really false. I'm all for appreciation, and for seeing what is normally overlooked, etc. And probably, if anything is "spiritual" then everything is. However, there is a difference between what is ordinary and easy to explain and understand, and what is not. The mysterious still exists, whether your cousin chooses to recognize that or not. I don't view the imagination, and the making up of stories, as mysterious. I view them as natural, easily understood (not necessarily easily done), and creative. I think your cousin is the poorer for his excessive emphasis on "facts" not because he refuses to make things up, but because he does not see what really is- the truly mysterious. Regarding believing in santa claus- I recall my mother telling me how crushed she was, and angry, when she discovered that santa was not real. She was honestly hurt that her parents would lie to her. She raised us to believe in santa anyway, which I liked- I never viewed it as a "real" belief, but more as a magical "outside of real reality" belief. I don't recall "finding out" that it wasn't true. I think I just always knew it wasn't really true, but part of the magic of liking to believe something. We're not children anymore, though. We're not playing. I don't believe in fairies. I use divination. It actually is mysterious. I'm not making it up. That is incredibly thrilling, and mysterious.

Ulfdis	05 Apr 2005
Francis P. Church said it best, I think: Quote: ... Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus! It would be as dreary as if there were no Virginias. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The external light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished. Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies. You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if you did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world. You tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived could tear apart. Only faith, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, Virginia, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding. ...

The superstitious? thread was originally posted on 24 Mar 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.