What constitutes a Marseille deck?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 08 Mar 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

closrapexa	08 Mar 2005
Now, I am a complete layman when it come to the Marseille, so this question goes out to all those devotees. I have heard decks that ahd unillustrated pips referred ro as a "Marseilles" style deck, even, to my eyes, it looked nothing like the classic Marseilles decks that I've seen. Now, I am under the impression that not all unillustrated pips are Marseille style, just like not all illustrated decks are RWS clones. So what does a deck have to have so that it will be a "Marseille" style deck?

Eco74	08 Mar 2005
Oh, this is a big question indeed. I think there are several threads in the Marseilles-part of the forum on what constitutes a "true marseilles" where you could find some info. Unfortunately I'm unable to break it down to "understandable" even for myself. To be a "Marseilles Style" deck all it has to do is have non-illustrated pips. (Though many argue that the images of the suit-symbols themselves with the floral arrangements around them are indeed illustrations aswell - however different enough from RWS to be non-illustrated.) Others argue that unless the majors are similar enough, it is not a true "clone" but rather an "inbetweener".. To be a "True Marseilles" however, more criteria are needed. The deck I started my marseilles-journey with, the Spanish Tarot, is not considered a "true marseilles" per se though I've yet to really get into detail on what the differences really are.. There are also links to sites that list the "true marseilles" and the "clones" where you would be able to find examples of "true" vs. "cloned" decks. I could go find them but I trust there is someone about who has the links more readily available than I. ;)

Diana	08 Mar 2005
Buy a Marseilles deck. Use it. But above all, study it. You will soon discover what constitutes a Marseilles deck and what doesn't. I'm not being funny or smartass. I PROMISE!!!!! Cross my heart and all that stuff.... This is a positive contribution to this thread, even though it may seem flippant to some. It's like someone who asks: "What constitutes a Symphony Concert". Or "What constitutes Anarcho-Punk music". It's when you listen to it through study (and the Tarot of Marseilles speaks too....) that you will know. (This thread should be in another sub-forum. It's not a Talking Tarot topic.)

jmd	08 Mar 2005
The question is actually both easier and more difficult to answer than may appear. On the one hand, there are a number of decks that are unquestionably 'Marseille' (even if not from the region) - such as the Conver and the Dodal. On the other, numerous decks that have characteristics that are relatively close have been called 'Marseille'. Basically, it will have 22 Atouts, with the Fool/Fou/Mat un-numbered and XIII un-named, all those bearing a number being in additive Roman (ie, 'four' will be displayed as 'IIII'). The sequence will be as has commonly been accepted: from I the Bateleur to XXI le Monde. Swords will be curved when paired (except two on the ten of swords) in the pips. Though there is some variation in titling (for example, 'La Pances' & 'La Papesse' for II; and the Fool having titled either 'Mat' or 'Fou'), there is great consistency in names:[indent]Bateleur; Pances/Papess (I personally suspect the latter is a corruption from a woodcut of the former); Imperatrice; Empereur; Pape; L'Amoureux; Chariot; Justice; Ermite; Roue de Fortune; Force; Le Pendu; [no name]; Temperance; Diable; La Maison Diev; L'etoile; La Lune; Le Soleil; Jujement; Le Monde; Fou/Mat.[/indent] One may note that I have given the names in French (though I have often omitted the definite article ('le' or 'la') simply as I typed - though it does form part of the titles in most cases. For many 'purists', to have the title 'translated' (some say that in cases of these titles, translation is not really possible - reference to Quine's 'Indeterminacy of Translation' would certainly back this up in this case) takes away from the very sense of the card. Colouration of the cards tends to vary significantly from acceptable Marseille to Marseille, though some have sought to bring a canon of criteria (such as Marteau, the former owner of the Grimaud house). Apart from these points, it really is a matter of studying one of the main variants and comparing it to others... and for this I would first and foremost recommend the Dodal and the Conver.

Lillie	10 Mar 2005
What's 'pances' then? I've never heard the word before. Not that I am a big Marseilles person, but I am naturally curious.

rainwolf	10 Mar 2005
Oh wow folgour, you know waaaay too much LOL Im traded for a marseilles in a few weeks, now im kinda excited. Cant wait to hear more replies so i know what im getting!

Diana	11 Mar 2005
As far as I know, no-one knows what La Pances means exactly.

Emily	11 Mar 2005
I think I understand what Diana says about buy a Marseille then you'll know what a Marseille deck is. For a long time I thought the 1JJ Swiss was a Marseille deck then I bought the Fournier and then a Conver reproduction deck and, although pretty, the 1JJ Swiss isn't a Marseille, it might be an in-betweener, but it doesn't have the visual effect that a true Marseille deck does.

Diana	11 Mar 2005
Oh sorry Fulgour. I didn't realise. What does it mean then (apart from the word-play you made in your post further up)?

Fudugazi	11 Mar 2005
Isn't it related to panse - the stomach - an laternative spelling in a ge before fixed spelling? The Pances/Papesse is a gestator, after all.

Lillie	11 Mar 2005
How strange. One day I'll get a marseilles deck, when I see a cheap one. But I really wouldn't know what to get, what is a 'good' one, and which is not. ie. which would be considered correct, and which would be seen as 'corrupted' or altered from how it should be. I too had a Swiss deck, many years ago, and for a while thought it was a Marseilles. More of an 'engraved onto metal style' (don't know the proper term), rather than 'wood cut'. Are any of the 1jj Swiss decks rare, or collectible? Cos I saw an old deck on ebay, same as many other 70s 1JJ Swiss decks as far as I could see, (the red cardboard box etc.), but three people had ignored all the many others which were going for a quid or two, and bid that one up to almost 50 quid! I wondered if they were just crazy, or I was missing something.

Diana	11 Mar 2005
Lillie wrote: One day I'll get a marseilles deck, when I see a cheap one. But I really wouldn't know what to get, what is a 'good' one, and which is not. ie. which would be considered correct, and which would be seen as 'corrupted' or altered from how it should be. I cannot recommend strongly enough Kris Hadar's Véritable Tarot de Marseille.

Scion	11 Mar 2005
I'll second that! I'm very new to TdM, and the Hadar has been a wonderful door in... Scion

Rusty Neon	11 Mar 2005
Diana wrote: I cannot recommend strongly enough Kris Hadar's Véritable Tarot de Marseille. What is the rationale for your strong recommendation of that deck over other decks?

Emily	11 Mar 2005
Hi Lillie, Not sure if the old 1JJ Swiss decks are collectable - My first 1JJ Swiss is 24 years old now but I managed to get one that is from the 1970's for £3 that looked like it hadn't been used (I posted on it here a few weeks ago when I was trying to find out about Waddingtons the toy company). As for a nice Marseille deck, Thunderbay do a good Conver reproduction deck - it comes with a book and silk spread cloth but the book is more RWS symbolism than Marseille - can't remember the name of the set though. It's nicer than the Lo Scarabeo one and although some of the printing is slightly fuzzy it adds to the appeal of the deck. I've looked at many Marseille decks and really took a liking to this reproduction one - I think I bought mine from Amazon but I've seen the same set in my local discount bookshop for £5.00.

spoonbender	11 Mar 2005
I third the recommendation for the Hadar :) ! And I also love my newly acquired Heron Conver... About the word Pances: Maybe there's a connection with the French verb penser (to think)? Because penser also used to be spelled as pancer or panser according to an 18th-century dictionary. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone can know the definite answer. Spoon

Diana	11 Mar 2005
spoonbender: So maybe it isn't "La Pance", but "La Pancé". For non-French speakers, in French one doesn't put accents on capital letters and "pensée" means "thought", and as in those days, spelling was not codified, it is possible that they wrote "pancé" for "pensée" (a bit like in English one could write, if one had no spelling code "thaut" instead of "thought").

Fudugazi	12 Mar 2005
Diana wrote: I cannot recommend strongly enough Kris Hadar's Véritable Tarot de Marseille. It's a lovely deck, but Diana, it's not Veritable. It's Hadar's interpretation of veritable, and your own personal leaning towards it. There are others, just as valid.

spoonbender	12 Mar 2005
Helvetica wrote: It's a lovely deck, but Diana, it's not Veritable. It's Hadar's interpretation of veritable, and your own personal leaning towards it. There are others, just as valid. Helvetica, Le Véritable Tarot de Marseille IS its name. And calling the deck by its name doesn't necessarily mean that we agree with it. And how could one recommend a deck without personally leaning towards it :confused: ?

Fudugazi	12 Mar 2005
Diana wrote: "pensée" means "thought", and as in those days, spelling was not codified, it is possible that they wrote "pancé" for "pensée" (a bit like in English one could write, if one had no spelling code "thaut" instead of "thought"). I do like that idea, which also makes the wordplay panser/penser (panser means to heal a wound - literally: to apply a bandage). And added to the third word "panse" meaning stomach, you have a good "language of birds" association running through that word.

Fudugazi	12 Mar 2005
spoonbender wrote: Helvetica, Le Véritable Tarot de Marseille IS its name. And calling the deck by its name doesn't necessarily mean that we agree with it. And how could one recommend a deck without personally leaning towards it :confused: ? Well, I think the name is misleading, that's all. I like it, but I wouldn't say it is the one and only or even the most true (blue faery hair?) But yes, we lean towards what we agree with, of course ;) I recommend the Dodal and the Rodes Sanchez :) And the Hadar too, because it has a soothing feel to it and is, after all, is a careful re-creation.

Fudugazi	12 Mar 2005
Je panse donc je suis :) (I bandange therefore I follow, haha) btw, will the snipers please put their weapons away, it's unpleasant for passers-by.

Rosanne	12 Mar 2005
Hey hey hey you aficionados- whats this I hear? Fournier is not a Marseilles? because they have blue Hair? This Quest for a TdM is driving me insane.I have been waiting patiently in this Desert of things Tarot(NZ has everything else one wants -scenery,Nuclear free,social welfare,female Prime Minister, liberal justice system,Treaty of Waitangi,men who are learning to cry etc etc) for my free Tarot. Just shows you, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. I now have a paypal and I am going to buy over the net One very important TdM. I cannot source a Grimaud and I don't like the Ancient SO WHICH ONE SHALL I BUY? I WILL PAY TO HAVE IT FLOWN OUT HERE BY SUPERSONIC JET!!! AND I AM GOING TO BUY TODAY!! Don't put me wrong now loved ones. ~Rosanne

Rusty Neon	12 Mar 2005
Rosanne wrote: Hey hey hey you aficionados- whats this I hear? Fournier is not a Marseilles? because they have blue Hair? Fret not, Rosanne. The Fournier is indeed a Tarot de Marseille deck. The Fournier follows the linework of the Paul Marteau 1930 / Grimaud deck. The Marteau/Grimaud deck in turn follows the linework of the 1760 Nicolas Conver Tarot de Marseille deck. In the main, the Marteau/Grimaud's and Fournier's linework is faithful to the linework of one of the traditional Tarot de Marseille patterns, i.e., the 1760 Conver. I wouldn't get up hung up about colours as an indicia of Marseille-ness. In fact, there is quite a bit of colour variety between Conver decks themselves, i.e., the colour schemes of the Conver Héron's woodcut specimen, the Lo Scarabeo's woodcut specimen, and the [english] Worshipful Company of Makers of Playing Cards' woodcut specimen all differ, yet each of them are Marseille decks. As well, there are colour scheme differences between the Conver woodcut decks and the 1701 Dodal TdM woodcut deck and the circa 1650 Noblet TdM woodcut deck. Corresponding details of the same card in the Conver, Dodal and Noblet often have different colours. As 'restorations', the Jodo-Camoin and the Rodes-Sanchez borrow details from other decks besides the Conver (, i.e., other Marseille patterns and Marseille-cousins patterns) and 'discover'/add esoteric touches. [for the record, hadar's deck also borrows details from various decks and 'discovers'/adds esoteric touches. please see kissa's post of yesterday's date at [url]http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=465773#post465773[/url] at post #11. In his deck, Hadar replaces all flowers (even if the flower is clearly a flower that is not a rose) with roses. :)] Quote: I cannot source a Grimaud and I don't like the Ancient SO WHICH ONE SHALL I BUY? I WILL PAY TO HAVE IT FLOWN OUT HERE BY SUPERSONIC JET!!! AND I AM GOING TO BUY TODAY!! Don't put me wrong now loved ones. ~Rosanne I find it's hard to have one single Marseille deck. As a minimum, even if I were to trim down my Marseille holdings, I would keep at least one woodcut reproduction of a Conver (my preference being the Héron Conver), one reproduction that is a close redrawing of a Conver woodcut pattern (the Marteau/Grimaud deck, but you could substitute the Fournier) and one modern restoration based on the Conver pattern (be it the Jodo-Camoin or the visually-striking Rodes-Sanchez). The Jodo-Camoin is fun to have because it basically follows the colours and linework of the Héron Conver's specimen. The Rodes-Sanchez basically follows the linework of the Héron Conver's specimen but there are colour departures. If you're going to do card-detail study with your Marteau/Grimaud, Fournier or a Conver-based restoration, a Conver is indispensible, as a point of reference. By the way, unlike the Jodo-Camoin and Rodes-Sanchez, the Hadar deck is not mainly based on the linework any one single Marseille woodcut pattern. In most any of the Hadar cards, you will see bits of linework from the Conver, bits of linework from the Payen or Dodal patterns, and linework made up by Hadar. If you don't mind that kind of mixture, the Hadar might work for you.

Eco74	12 Mar 2005
Have a look at the Conver. Personally I have the Héron Conver (Héron being the publisher) and absolutely love the colors in it. The Ignaz Krebs is also interesting, though not as easily read. But this is just me personally.. There are scans of the full Conver deck out there if I remember correctly. You should be able to find them under the discussions on Tarot Decks or in the Marseilles-part of the forum.

Rosanne	12 Mar 2005
Thank you Rusty Neon and Eco74, I will go purchase a Heron Conver and continue to wait patiently for my Fournier. I was freaking out because my docket said 85 days until I get it- it is now only 24 days left and that has been a lot of waiting, while using my Grimaud illustrations. If after all that I had got it wrong and it was only a TdM Inspired Deck I would have turned into a screaming Banshee. So Rusty your clear comparisons and info was invaluable. I can now relax. Many Thanks ~Rosanne

Lillie	13 Mar 2005
Where as, I am still much confused. Gone are the days when I thought that wood cut = Marseilles. No, it is not so simple, not at all. And without a deck (decks?) to look at, I don't know what is being talked about, what small but significant details are being compared... Oh woe is me. Never mind, one day I'll see a cheapie on ebay or somewhere, and then I can join in all these interesting discussions. Until then I will just ponder.

Diana	13 Mar 2005
Helvetica wrote: It's a lovely deck, but Diana, it's not Veritable. It's Hadar's interpretation of veritable, and your own personal leaning towards it. There are others, just as valid. I just saw this post. It is the name of this deck. Like the Grimaud Marteau is called "Ancien Tarot de Marseilles", even though it is not so ancient. It's its name. :confused: I was not giving any opinion as to whether I think it is véritable or not (although the more I study it and go into it, the more I am impressed and the more I think Hadar knows what he is talking about - and I respect his restoration more and more.) Of course, I could have said "I can't recommend strongly enough Kris Hadar's deck" but I think it's easier when one is doing a search on Amazon or whatever to give the precise title of the book or deck or whatever we are looking for. But I suppose one can also find it if one just looks up "Kris Hadar" and then probably his books would come up on the list as well.

Cerulean	13 Mar 2005
I realize those fans of Italian/Milanese style have an advantage of being able to date or refer to timelines of regional patterns. I know that when I asked once or twice of definitive datings of earliest or latest Marseilles, it was a discussion point, not really referenced among collectors here unless I could give people an exact deck title. JMD's named collection at the last time was the only one that I could come up with that had certain names and references and I was able to check back using his reviews. Have some people hear have written down their Marseilles titles and dates in their collection area of their profile? I'm eager to learn people's tastes and throughts. Please understand, I also realized that I realize that I haven't listed my fluctuating collection--I point to Tom Tadforlittle's better Antique Tarot or Andy's Playing cards listings, as I haven't analyzed the variations as well as they have--and I don't have all the regional variations! Best regards, Cerulean

Fudugazi	13 Mar 2005
Rosanne wrote: Hey hey hey you aficionados- whats this I hear? Fournier is not a Marseilles? because they have blue Hair? This Quest for a TdM is driving me insane.I have been waiting patiently in this Desert of things Tarot(NZ has everything else one wants -scenery,Nuclear free,social welfare,female Prime Minister, liberal justice system,Treaty of Waitangi,men who are learning to cry etc etc) for my free Tarot. Just shows you, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. I now have a paypal and I am going to buy over the net One very important TdM. I cannot source a Grimaud and I don't like the Ancient SO WHICH ONE SHALL I BUY? I WILL PAY TO HAVE IT FLOWN OUT HERE BY SUPERSONIC JET!!! AND I AM GOING TO BUY TODAY!! Don't put me wrong now loved ones. ~Rosanne Don't let anyone tell you Fournier is not a Marseille - it is a Marseille of the Spanish school, and I am sure you'll get a lot out of it :) - and blue hair can be found in a number of Marseille decks, including the famous Grimaud. If you want another - for contrast I would go for the Heron Conver, it's a very beautiful photoreprodoction if the 1760 Conver Tarot de Marseille.

Moonbow*	13 Mar 2005
Hi Lillie Have a look at this site, it shows some of the decks mentioned in this thread and may give you a place to start: http://home.comcast.net/~felicityk/tarot/marseilles/index.html For myself, I bought the Hadar first, because I loved the colours and it was recommended to me. But since then I have bought a few more Marseilles decks (and Marseilles types!) and having comparisons is really when personal preference took off, for me. It never hurts to have a few decks for study purposes. At the end of the day you can listen, and take in, everyone's advice... then make up your own mind as to which 'you' like.

Fudugazi	13 Mar 2005
Diana wrote: I just saw this post. It is the name of this deck. Like the Grimaud Marteau is called "Ancien Tarot de Marseilles", even though it is not so ancient. It's its name. Spoonbender made the same point - and you are both right, of course, but I still find it a misleading name. Don't get me wrong, I am not slagging off the Hadar Tarot de Marseille, I am just sceptical about anything held up as iconic. But I have it and study with it, and agree it is an interesting re-creation - well described by Rusty Neon as variously sourced (with some changes that seem to belong just to Hadar); and a good deck to get the know the Marseille tradition, because the obvious love its creator has for that tradition and the attractive feel and look of the cards. But my innate scepticism makes me reject any one-man view of the what is true or false, no matter how well researched (and bearing in mind I've not seen any of Hadar's historical research: I very much hope he will be able to share it eventually). I've yet to understand the faery-blue hair Marteau and Hadar have put on some of their characters, apart from the limitation of printing colours in the 1930s. Maybe tht's the real reason, after all!

Major Tom	13 Mar 2005
And perhaps that explains nothing. :laugh: I follow this thread and I wish to contribute but I'm trembling none the less. I refer of course, to my own Marseille rendition. Now, I'd be quite happy if conscensus names my deck a clone, but I'd prefer if it could be recognised as consistent with the tradition. I'm writing a book to go with it as well - in English. ;) I've a ways to go yet, but could seriously use a boost at this point.

Diana	13 Mar 2005
Dear Tom, It is good to tremble sometimes. If you change the name of your trump number 2, I will get back to you on this matter. :) (The new layout of your web-site is great, by the way!)

jmd	14 Mar 2005
Personally, I see it as perfectly accurate for Hadar to have titled his deck as a 'Véritable' Tarot de Marseille - not in terms of the township of origin, but in terms of its style. As any pattern, it takes from the tradition. In his case, it appears not so much as though he has taken a little from this deck and a little from that one, but rather that the tradition has been carefully studied and created anew and afresh. Camoin and Jodorowsky also appear to have carefully studied the tradition, and in their case do indeed appear to have blended various finds - all towards, again, a re-creation within the tradition. As earlier extant decks (such as the Dodal and the Conver), the varieties are, for myself at least, as varieties of roses. Each remains, however, a rose and not a Lilly. In this vein, Major Tom's is likewise a Marseille - though the modernisation of dress does deviate in more Major ways than what is normally expected. I suppose it is an 'e.netically modified deck' within the Marseille tradition :) And by the way, with regards to 'Pances', though in posts two years old I mentioned that the word seems to be related to 'belly', and also noted the play it gave on the meaning to one's ears towards 'thought', it has since been unequivocally found that it did indeed refer to the belly or womb - just in case anyone reads the thread(s) in which this was earlier discussed.

spoonbender	14 Mar 2005
Major Tom, you know how much I like your deck, right? There are some really amazing cards (The Fool is one of my favourites), BUT I hate Trump 2!! Seriously, she looks like an old hooker :( . And why the heck did you name the card The High Priestess :eek: ??? Spoon

Fudugazi	14 Mar 2005
spoonbender wrote: Major Tom, you know how much I like your deck, right? There are some really amazing cards (The Fool is one of my favourites), BUT I hate Trump 2!! Seriously, she looks like an old hooker :( . I like the fact Major Tom hooked onto the womanly quality of the Papesse (if you excuse the pun:)), which is something very strong in the Marseille that you don't find in other Tarots. She doesn't look like a hooker to me at all, this is just seeing the Papesse from the inside. You can be wise and knowing and still a sexy thing ;). It gets us away from the idea of the virgin as the ideal good woman, which is a good thing in my view. But I agree about the change of name...

Diana	14 Mar 2005
jmd wrote: Personally, I see it as perfectly accurate for Hadar to have titled his deck as a 'Véritable' Tarot de Marseille - not in terms of the township of origin, but in terms of its style. As any pattern, it takes from the tradition. In his case, it appears not so much as though he has taken a little from this deck and a little from that one, but rather that the tradition has been carefully studied and created anew and afresh. And along comes jmd and explains things in two simple plain paragraphs. Kris Hadar did definitely not "take a little from here" and a "little from there" and let it be said once and for all that the Conver is not a deck that he considers to be an original canon. And when jmd says that he studied the tradition "carefully", this is an understatement. Anyway, one day when Hadar gets his book published (it's still being written), a lot of people will be eating their hats. Until then, I cannot recommend too strongly for people to buy the Kris Hadar's Véritable Tarot de Marseille (and others to stock up on hats).

Fudugazi	14 Mar 2005
But what of the faery blue hair? Which canon does that belong to?

Diana	14 Mar 2005
Ah... Helvetica is very interested in this Blue Hair. I will try and find out for you. :)

Lillie	14 Mar 2005
Thank you Moonbow. I checked your link and looked at all those cards. Am I any wiser? Well, a little perhaps. I will have to think very carefully before getting a Marseilles. Or perhaps I will just not think at all, and let one come to me. Which it will, in time, as all things do when you stop thinking about them! Thankyou for your help

Major Tom	15 Mar 2005
Diana - Yes the name will change. You've convinced me that Papess is an English word. In fact as it's just on the title - I'll fix it later today. Which, by the way Spoonbender, is why I named it High Priestess in the first place - I'm seriously trying to get the titles right in English. Which some might say is impossible! :eek: As to the look of the card - sigh - I really want to redraw the whole thing. I'd rather she looked a bit younger. ;) Helvetica - Thanks for that. For me, the Papess embodies all four aspects of womanhood. Sexuality is an important part.

Diana	15 Mar 2005
Don't make your Papess younger, Major Tom. She is the Mother. An archaic Mother. The archetypal Mother. The Mother of the universe and the Cosmic Mother. To point out her sexuality is important. Mothers are sexual beings (which is why the Papess does not represent the Virgin Mary.) But one doesn't need to be young to be sexy. (But don't start putting phallic symbols around her chest please.) She is the Feminine in all its glory. Make sure that it is clear in your card that she knows the Secrets to the Universe. They are written in her book. It is with age that one acquires Wisdom. A young Papess would not have the experience required for this Arcanum.

jumptothemoonyea	15 Mar 2005
Diana wrote: Papess... She is the Mother. An archaic Mother. The archetypal Mother. The Mother of the universe and the Cosmic Mother. Diana, if she is the Mother, who is the Empress? I am confused now. I thought her main task was purely spiritual, uncovering the hidden other side to us, and naturally, sex and reproduction is secondary to her, though I can understand... After all there are only 4 females for all the Major Arcana. Right?

Eco74	15 Mar 2005
Jumping in... Where the Papess is the Archaic mother, the mother that holds the keys to understanding, the inner identity and the hidden truths, the Empress is the Earthly mother, the one that nourishes, the one that feeds, that tends and cares. The one that holds the home secure and keeps food on our tables. The one who sees what her children do even behind closed doors. The Papess rather holds the secrets to how she is able to do this, and also the keys to the other sides of womanhood. Not just the maternal but the sexual, the sensual, the receptive aswell as the giving. The key to the well of infinite patience that every mother needs to tap in to every once in a while. Atleast that's the difference I see between the two.

Keslynn	15 Mar 2005
I have only started exploring the Marseille associations with the Empress. I have to say that I like her better this way. More brains and less blind fecundity. Maybe it's a difference of active vs. passive feminine? You have to seek out the Papess, but the Empress is right there (as one example). :) Kes

Fudugazi	15 Mar 2005
There is a fecundity aspect to the Imperatrice, but in my view it is not an "earth mother" thing (sorry Eco :)) - more to do with her creative powers. The one who is fertile because she creates. Whereas the Papess is the Mother of us all. It is a splitting of the Eve archetype into two - the creative feminine, and the gestating/knowing feminine. Both have a masculine element in them, which is why I am not at all shocked (or surprised) to see a phallus on the Papess's chest. The Imperatrice is also a sexual being as she assures the perennity of the Empire.

Diana	15 Mar 2005
Keslynn wrote: I have only started exploring the Marseille associations with the Empress. I have to say that I like her better this way. More brains and less blind fecundity. She's the most intellectual of all the Major Arcana. This woman has brains and she uses them. She's quite masculine actually - not much feminity about her (3 is a masculine number and she has an Adam's apple).

The What constitutes a Marseille deck? thread was originally posted on 08 Mar 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.