Spirits and tarot cards

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 02 Apr 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

TrueStar	02 Apr 2005
I have heard many times, in many occasions told by professional tarot readers, that spirits are what make tarot work. This is one possible theory for people who believe in a life after the death, an ethereal world or even another dimension of existance. I must confess that I was a kind of sceptic for this matter, but I always felt there is a "voice" in tarot cards, like somebody telling me something. I find psychological theries on tarot to be very sensible and think it's obvious that there is some psychological elements involved in tarot reading, but never can get away from the feeling that there was something else playing a role in tarot. Now I'm on a path of discovery (may be better said "experimentation"), trying to aproach spritual field with an open mind and can't avoid to poss myself one insidious, tricky, unpleasant question: assuming that tarot is a device driven by spirits, ethereal beings (lets say for a little rationale that they manipulate random events), which kind of spirits do you think are behind tarot? It's possible for low level entities to take control of a tarot spread leading to wrong results? If the answer for the last question is possitive, how can we get rid of them or totally avoid his influence in our tarot readings? I thing this is a big subject and I'll apreciate very much if anyone can make it clear. Thank you in advance! Daniel

peridot	02 Apr 2005
TrueStar wrote: I must confess that I was a kind of sceptic for this matter, but I always felt there is a "voice" in tarot cards, like somebody telling me something. I find psychological theries on tarot to be very sensible and think it's obvious that there is some psychological elements involved in tarot reading, but never can get away from the feeling that there was something else playing a role in tarot. Hi TrueStar, I totally agree with you about the "voice". It's really uncanny sometimes. I love it don't you? Although I haven't participated, there are threads in the Spirituality section dealing with spirit guides. I've read some posts in there - very fasinating. You may get some answers reading those. :)

HOLMES	02 Apr 2005
i do believe i channel a bit when i read the tarot. there are those who may say that you read the tarot by reading the person body language. there are those who may say that it works on the unconsciouness level by reading the energy the person puts into the cards as they shuffle. (which becomes moot if you allow no one to shuffle your cards) however what you put forth is a fear that low level spirits are manipulating the cards to give a lie about the wrong situation. (i am a big believer that it is the reader who misinterpates the cards wrong and not the cards themselves being wrong) it would be spiritualy impossible for them to do such a thing after you have cleared the room, bring in the light and grounded yourself. which is what the intermediate and advanced spiritual tarot readers (i am say the spiritual for there are those who are quite advanced tarot readers who dont' come from that perspective) advises the beginner and newbie tarot readers to do before hand. it is the tarot reader responsiblity to end the reading by empowering the client and not leave them with fear of death, or the devil. often after a tarot reading is done, we sit for a while while i explain the tarot in greater detail specifically the devil, the death, the tower cards. when i shuffle the cards i connect to the light and allow the light to fill me and surround me. as i shuffle i shuffle with my inuitive left hand as to not to put my own ego from my right hand into the cards. and i stop shuffling, trusting it to the light to shuffle the cards through my left hand. and i use the energy of my left hand to cut the cards into past, present, future, and then the i put them back together usually past , into present, into future. then i use my left hand floatingover the deck until i feel the heat, and i cut the cards once fast as to not allow my mind to influence the cut. and there we go.

HudsonGray	02 Apr 2005
"It's possible for low level entities to take control of a tarot spread leading to wrong results? " Absolutely not! I believe the reading comes from inside us, the cards are only the visual key that gets things started. IF you believe you yourself connect with angels, the great divine, who/whatever -- then those are your connections possibly. But it all starts with what's inside you. Personally I don't call on the help of others/the above/God when I do a reading, but I do center in myself first, and try to open my subconscious for the best connection to the visual images on the cards so that my mind can pick up what it needs to. I've never felt that someone came in and took over, hijacked the reading to make it bad, flipped all interpretations on end with the cards, or any other thing that would make me pull back from using the tarot cards in the first place.

The Dreamer	02 Apr 2005
peridot wrote: Hi TrueStar...there are threads in the Spirituality section dealing with spirit guides...You may get some answers reading those. TrueStar is one of the participants in those threads. :) The whole idea of spirit guides creeps me out. First, because I like to be in control of, and guide myself. Second, because how could one tell if one wasn't just imagining things? Even reading the posts in the spirit guide threads disturbs me. The lines between imagination and "spirit" seem so blurred it appears impossible to discern what might be going on. To me, anyway. A lot of people seem to get a lot out of an imaginative approach to spirituality, and it's probably just fine for them. Not for me. My mother thinks that she "hears from god". Nothing she's ever said that was supposed to come from god sounded remotely true to me. Because I'm so creeped out by murky imaginative stuff which claims to be true or spiritual, and because I care so much about what is really true, I have approached my tarot use in the most unimaginative way possible. I don't interpret intuitively. I don't allow interpretive leeway. But I get really accurate results which predict the future and reflect the present. I don't read for others, so body language and rapport don't come into it. It really seems as though the information which I get from tarot comes from something which is outside of things- or at least from something which is outside of myself, or any conscious part of myself. I don't know what that means. I don't know if spirits are involved. But that "something else" which makes tarot work- I know that it exists. I just don't know what it is. I would not wish to speculate upon what kind of entities might be involved in the use of tarot, and have no way to know if any are at all. I think sometimes that the very speculation about such things can cause problems for people because of the building up of emotional and imaginative energies. The only thing that I can say about it based upon my own experience is that the information which I have gotten from tarot has always been in my best interests, very useful, and not damaging. When people come up with theories about spiritual things, I always just want to know how anyone could possibly know if they are true, and not just a figment of our own imaginations. People have all kinds of theories about ouija boards- what kinds of "spirits" might be involved in using them, etc... I've gotten no better idea about what is really going on with ouija by listening to people's spiritual theories than I do by not listening to them. The best information I can get about the use of ouija is to use it myself, and to hear about others' experiences with it (and not their theories.) If somebody says "there are 40 legions of angels, and here are their names..." I don't know what I can do with that supposed "knowledge". How do they know that? I can't believe something just because somebody has a vision about it, or a theory about it. What I can do is explore for myself. I use tarot, because it works. I don't use ouija anymore, because it didn't work very well. I won't invoke demons, because 1) I don't want to, 2) they might exist. TrueStar- if you're getting wholesome results from your use of tarot, probably any spirits which might be involved in that, if there are any involved, are good ones. Don't worry about it. I don't think that coming up with a bunch of ways "not to invoke bad tarot spirits" would be very useful, especially if you haven't had any problems with it in the first place. I think that the best way to "make it clear" is to do your own experimentation, and draw your own conclusions, insofar as they can be drawn.

TrueStar	02 Apr 2005
HudsonGray wrote: I believe the reading comes from inside us, the cards are only the visual key that gets things started. Please HudsonGray, note that my question is possed asuming that what makes tarot work are beings that don't exist in the material plane, i.e., spirits, ghosts, dead souls or however you may call them. This theory on the tarot isn't mine, I have come across with it many times, although isn't the most popular. Anyway, your opinion is very appreciated here, I am very interested in the psychological, jungian, point of view on tarot and think unconscious plays an important role on reading tarot. Is very understandeble that some people feel afraid from the possibility of anything else messing in his readings and giving misleading information to them through tarot. But that is what it's supposed to happen with ouija, why not also with tarot? I think that the nature of tarot is a thing that deserves some research from us, the people who believe in a spiritual dimension of life. May be our guides can answer this for us, don't know. HOLMES wrote: it would be spiritualy impossible for them to do such a thing after you have cleared the room, bring in the light and grounded yourself. Hum, never thought all this was necessary. I've only heard some people do rituals to clean his cards from time to time. Now I think I'm going to look for some of these cleaning systems. peridot wrote: Hi TrueStar, I totally agree with you about the "voice". When reading tarot I always look for the "voice" in first place. It's so important for me. I feel it's like the voice of some who cares about you, giving you advice and a telling-off when it's needed. When I can't find it, reading comes to be mechanical, and most of the time they simply go "fuzzy".

HOLMES	02 Apr 2005
"Is very understandeble that some people feel afraid from the possibility of anything else messing in his readings and giving misleading information to them through tarot. But that is what it's supposed to happen with ouija, why not also with tarot? I think that the nature of tarot is a thing that deserves some research from us, the people who believe in a spiritual dimension of life. May be our guides can answer this for us, don't know between the tarot and the oujia board. " the person is allowing that any spirit is present can influence them by moving the planchette. they have in effect open themselves to any spiritual being walking by either good or bad. it isn't supposed to "happen" with ouija in the sense that is all that happens. for there are many benovlent spirits that come through for people. in such cases they prayed for only postive spirits come through, and set it up so only postive "spirits come through" it makes you think,, what is a postive spirit " for a spirit is mostly someone who was once alive right ? so the negative spirits would be those who are still livin within the earth coil refusuing to connect to their divine selves. they are in effect lost filled with their personalities. they want to live in anyway they can to get back and clear the issues that hold them back or relive their desires that are holding them there. LIKE ATTRACTS LIKE hence if you are postive and full of love there is no way you can attract a lower level without you knowing it. (the only case is that when they come is to ask for help on the oujia board if you are using love to help those who pass as oppose to just messing around leaving yourself open ) hence your FOCUS DETERINES YOUR REALITY. in other words if i am testing out the ouja to see if a negative spirit will show up. well by golly it will. and if i keep playing around enthralled by the drama fo it. (i want it go away, but i want to know what it wants first , and so it goes) it is very much like training your mind, i wont' think judgemental thoughts, nor thoughts of anger. well i won't have angry, or judgemental low level spirits around me and you tell the person to get THE HELL OUT OF MY HOUSE is one way of doing it, i seen it done on tv and it is pratice around here by some medicine teachers. as you claim your house back and your power. the lightworkerway is to send it into the love and helping it with love to go over. again it all depends on your focus. if you are curious about that, you will get the experience.? am i making this all up. ? since your focus determines your reality? no for you have choosen subsconciously without knowing it allow this to happen. (and don't forget in oujia half of the time it is one of the person having fun at the expense of you, and after you get scared they either laugh or do the famous "let send it in the light" and push the planchette into the sun) the tarot cards are differnt. for you are looking at a instrument but it is rare for a tarot reader to ask "any spirits around to help me read these tarot." also you are not using your body to allow any spirit to reveal itself. then again like attracts like, and your focus determines your reality. 1. if you are full of fear, you may get a fearful reading 2. if you are open to spirits messing around with your cards, you are inviting them telepathically show me what you can do. just in case you relate this to channeling like attract like, and focus determines reality. so if you are full of love and focus on channeling a high levle guide. then no low levle guide can come through. edited to add the heart knows what is not right , what comes from love and what comes from ego , listen to that that the most.

peridot	02 Apr 2005
[quote=The Dreamer]TrueStar is one of the participants in those threads. :) QUOTE] OOps, ok. Well, that just goes to show you how much I participate in there. Maybe I should, then I'd take more notice on who posts as well as what's posted. :) I mean what really is truth in this case? I think it's relative. If something in itself or the way it works is mysterious then hey, we just don't know. We can only think we know. Unless of course God appeared before me to tell it the way it is - I wouldn’t know. But then who would believe me? And do we know there is a God? And if there is how would I know that he or she really was God? Would I just know? I'd swear it was the truth because it really did happen to me. But what does that mean really? Anyway, I'm sure this is off topic so I'll zip it now. I'm crackin up here. :) It is an amazing experience though whatever that "voice" is and it's even more amazing how we receive them.

Cerulean	02 Apr 2005
I don't believe when I work with tarot images, that what happens to me is manipulated by spirits. I mean I don't see spirit manipulation in what I do. I understand this is a personal attitude, please let me explain first. I do believe the spiritual beliefs and energy of a reader does take a voice though, through the use of tarot cards. A reader considering a question, the contexts and conversations (including the conversation from a reader's mind to a reader's associative memories), will sometimes hear and sense something beyond themselves. But below, let me just say my individual background. While I was rather imaginative when young, I was never spooked, sad or spiritually affected negatively in a larger family setting. We felt pretty grounded and common-sensical and that is the over-riding voice that seems to pipe up in reading...although my grandfather's had a light, teasing tone that was not mean, which sometimes comes out (when the reading and question works well!). I think of this as a personality trait that became fun for me...but it's a voice/aspect, not a spirit. I remember...there are three young cousins (me the youngest, about five, with brother and older girl cousin) in a room with Candyland--a freebie game someone threw away--and a ouija board placed by the kids on the bed, in a bedroom with a picture on the dresser of two great-grandparents . There is also a candle and tiny bowl of rice and flowers on the dresser. Before dinner, Grandpa lights the candle, nods in front of the pictures, makes a prayer sign, speaks softly and ignores us pesky cousins standing with open mouths. This is part of his heritage, we are taught not to laugh and ask questions. (We ask our parents later; we do not disturb Grandpa. We might be whooping squealers just moments before, but not just before dinner, not at dinner, not in front of elders). After dinner, we tire of Candyland, try the ouija board. We spell out stupid things like "your butt stinks," "Eat nose hairs". The oldest kid is seven. I can hardly spell, so it's boring to me. We all suspect each other, they think I know how to spell much better than I do. They get tired of reading to me, go play bingo or charades or 'play penny poker'. I linger behind. I look at pictures on the wall of semi-smiling guardians, silk-screens of water, old costumes and old people that I don't know. Later, I hear stories, including a picture of one gentle sister who was photographed in the early twentieth century, in full costume, after she died. It was a post-mortem portrait, for they were poor and the practice was a holdover of poorer families of the 19th century. I put the Ouija board and Candyland in their boxes and walk away. Any one of these things could feel creepy if you believed that the family or friends you have in this scenario didn't have any context reason, rhyme, way of dealing with following: images, ouija, spirits, gambling; text messages; superstition; religious differences. Perhaps my grandfather's soft voice request of memory and blessing and gratitude before dinner really made a sacred, good space for us. So if anyone with belief and fear of spiritual manipulation, perhaps it is wise to have first a strong grounding in one's belief systems...and emotional and spiritual beliefs first in place of how much meditative or prayer practises affect themselves--in my case, I have very strong and positive belief systems and what works for me allows for a strong spiritual voice--but doesn't speak of unknown ethereal spirits behind tarot. I hope this made sence in context with your interesting question. I hope it wasn't too long and can edit and rephrase if this doesn't pertain closely to your fascinating next steps.... Cerulean

peridot	02 Apr 2005
TrueStar wrote: When reading tarot I always look for the "voice" in first place. It's so important for me. I feel it's like the voice of some who cares about you, giving you advice and a telling-off when it's needed. When I can't find it, reading comes to be mechanical, and most of the time they simply go "fuzzy". Yes, me too. When I'm connected like that not only do I trust my own intuition, but I feel as if I'm part of something greater than my own self. Which makes life so much richer.

jmd	02 Apr 2005
TrueStar's opening post has in fact several questions. The first is 'What makes tarot work?' On this, a number of earlier threads may be worth reading through: What makes Tarot work? (this one also includes links to yet other earlier discussions); What makes tarot work? (though the same name, this is actually a different thread); and How Do You Explain Tarot? . In one of these threads, I write, therefore agreeing with TrueStar's queries, that Quote: Elemental beings, angelic beings, and the rest of the spiritual hierarchies may very well be involved in every part of the process, in different ways... including assistance in reading to the person open to their influences. Further, that there are beings of Light does not preclude that all spiritual beings are such... and we must not forget our own failings and selfish and cruel inclinations. In the very creation of a Tarot deck, I personally consider a number of influences to be at work, including the influence of spiritual beings - in addition to the pure essence of what I have called the 'Ür-Tarot'. The very deck one uses, therefore, already 'attracts' those types of beings that were more influential in its design. Of course, all the above is written out of a view that takes as given the structure of the world as fundamentally spiritual, and inhabited by myriad spiritual beings, many of which are in ongoing involvement with the very physical world (itself essentially spiritual) we incarnate in. To return, then, to the opening post and address directly that those more important questions, viz.:[indent]'assuming that tarot is a device driven by spirits, ethereal beings (lets say for a little rationale that they manipulate random events), which kind of spirits do you think are behind tarot?'[/indent]The question may well be asked whether the Tarot seems to liberate or bind individuals. In my personal view and experience, it liberates. Another question that may be asked is whether Tarot points towards the spiritual realms or towards a rejection of the same. Again, from my personal study, it certainly appears to point towards the spiritual realms. A third question is whether the usage of Tarot appears to make of individuals more caring, accepting, warm and thoughtful people (with, of course, faults and weaknesses remaining!). In my personal experience, again this indeed seems to be the case. If I now ask on the nature of spiritual beings at work in something that seems to assist individuals in becoming the above, I would have to describe these as spiritual beings of Light, rather than binding or darkness.

Cerulean	02 Apr 2005
I found much wisdom in many reflections posted. I notice that I could only speak from the small aspect of what I could filter--in terms of memory and what small advice I wanted to offer...maybe as an aunt to someone whose undertone felt like someone slightly teetering and tripping into the realm of an underworld or overworld. Forgive the auntlike perspective and nature of only being able to suggest small bits! Thank you for posting the question in this forum. I really am digesting quite a bit from those who speaking of their thoughts, experiences as well. Regards, Cerulean

peridot	03 Apr 2005
Thanks jmd for the links to those threads. Quite the discussions! Wow. A lot to think about. Ok, so after reading them I decided to ask. Got out my deck asked ok, what makes Tarot work? While I shuffled the Star fell right out of the deck and on to my lap. Now, this is just my basic understanding of what the Star could mean for this particular question and the context in which I asked it. What makes Tarot work is my connectedness to the universe. I feel an outside influence at work. I have faith that the forces of this universe (or God or the source or however you choose to relate) are connected to me as well and so I am open to its messages. I sense that Tarot is a tool the unconscious uses to express what the universe has conveyed for me to read in the cards. I become aware. Just like seeing my reflection in the water. I know it’s not “really” me but I sense that it is. I recognize myself. I become aware of myself in a different way. So in the same way that the reflection is connected to the water, the unconscious is connected to the universe. The universe, a huge sea of wisdom and I can tap into that. Just like the woman with the jugs of water. She pours her water into the stream and takes some out and spills it into the earth. It is free flowing. I think the Star is telling me that this is the way it works with me. :)

Sophie-David	03 Apr 2005
The Dreamer wrote: The whole idea of spirit guides creeps me out. First, because I like to be in control of, and guide myself. Second, because how could one tell if one wasn't just imagining things? Even reading the posts in the spirit guide threads disturbs me. The lines between imagination and "spirit" seem so blurred it appears impossible to discern what might be going on. To me, anyway. A lot of people seem to get a lot out of an imaginative approach to spirituality, and it's probably just fine for them. Not for me. Hi Dreamer I respect and can identify with your concerns, and I personally have no interest in contacting outside entities or spirit guides at this time. Nonetheless, it appears that it has happened to me on occasion, although I do not seek it out. I am personally very interested in exploring the depths of my own soul or psyche, and when I write in the Spirit Guide Study Group that is what I am talking about. For me, this is the path to continued internal healing, growth and individuation. I agree that is is vital for one to take responsibility for one's own guidance and choices, that is what personal growth is all about. I see the internal entities of one's psyche and the personal or inner spirit guides as being synonymous: to me it is no more than a difference in language and approach. One uses Jungian language, the other uses spiritual - each is simply a model which helps us understand the same reality. Language can become a great barrier to understanding and relating another person's experience to one's own. When we deal with right brained esoteric experiences, it is very difficult for the left brain to quantify them accurately. Yes, I believe the imaginative and the spiritual go together, there is a good reason for this blur since they are both part of the same spectrum. I strongly agree with your objective and experiential approach, and I believe I share it. I have come to the conclusions I have because to do otherwise would involve more irrationality and impossibility than I am able to tolerate. Its good to chat again, and blessings to you as always! David

Milfoil	03 Apr 2005
The Dreamer wrote: Because I'm so creeped out by murky imaginative stuff which claims to be true or spiritual, and because I care so much about what is really true, I have approached my tarot use in the most unimaginative way possible. I don't interpret intuitively. I don't allow interpretive leeway. But I get really accurate results which predict the future and reflect the present. I don't read for others, so body language and rapport don't come into it. It really seems as though the information which I get from tarot comes from something which is outside of things- or at least from something which is outside of myself, or any conscious part of myself. I have the same concerns and wonder just where my imagination ends and other influences begin but I guess thats why we were given both sides of the brain to work with. Between them we can experiment, learn, search, disgard, rationalise, adopt, imagine, test etc. When we listen to only one side, things are generally out of balance. Its good to keep an open mind I think and see things from both camps.

psychic sue	03 Apr 2005
I don't know what makes the tarot work. Spirits (I'll use this term for want of a better one) do definitely gather around when I do readings for people - and sometimes they make contact. I find this is usually when I make a "direct hit" - I say the phrase that is really going to hit home to the client. When this happens I get the spirit shivers and the feeling of a "rolling solar plexus" - then, if I'm lucky, I get a flash of something - I briefly see the spirit or have a feeling connected to the spirit. Other times, I do a reading and no-one comes to pay a visit. I still give a good reading (so the client tells me). Are the spirit people still there? I don't know. I am not that "sensitive" - connection is a hit and miss thing with me (I am working on it!). I am not going to start talking about the sub-conscious and the unconscious. I'll leave that to people who know what they are talking about ! I suspect the "higher self" also comes into play when reading the cards. Sue x

Keslynn	04 Apr 2005
All I know is that if spirits are what makes the cards work, then they give darned good advice. I have not yet had a reading where the advice was bad so I seriously doubt that any "lower entities" step in. However, I still honestly don't know what makes the cards work. :) Kes

The Spirits and tarot cards thread was originally posted on 02 Apr 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.