A public apology

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 18 May 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

ncefafn	18 May 2005
In the reading exchanges, I have -- I now realize -- been guilty of the very sin that Umbrae has preached against until his poor little wizened face has turned blue. The reason for this revelation is that I asked a friend to give me a reading to help sort out some interpersonal dynamics of a very complicated nature. Instead of an in-depth analysis of my options and the likely outcomes, I got a "What does Kim need to know about this situation," with a lot of psychobabble thrown in, all based on her prejudgment about me. And at the same time I felt disappointed and a little angry at being on the receiving end of this, I realized I'd done the very same thing in the past. So I hereby apologize to everyone I ever gave a patronizing, smug reading to. This isn't a game. These are people's lives we're dealing with, and unless we've been through the same hell that our clients have, we have absolutely no right to pat them on the head and send them off with our smug, self-righteous advice. Mea culpa. Kim

Umbrae	18 May 2005
(((Kim))) I love you

HOLMES	18 May 2005
as long as your friend did the best she could why judge the reading? but look at the reading to see some of the truth,, psycho babble is just a round about way of saying something but that something is important.. I would look at the reading again and see if the reading is based on sound tarot principles. perhaps you should have made it clear that you wanted a specific kind of spread instead one where the readers gets to pick the spread. i did some of those readings where you ask the cards what the client need to know right now,, and did the best I could,, that is all you can ask for from a reader. and when you did that so called "sin" you did it the best you could as well,, so no sin has been made,, it isn't the fault of the reader if the client doens't like hearing what the tarot cards have to say,, unless the reader comes out and really puts down the client conciously. ask yourself would your friend do that to you? i recall a reading i gave to a freind who i was just flowing from,, and at the end she said "i feel like i just been told off" yet it was all true she said.

Umbrae	18 May 2005
I wanted to post that not because of anything I have ever said. I tell you I love you cuz that’s what I had to do at that moment. Brave words. Very very brave. So… I love you :smoker:

Fudugazi	18 May 2005
Holmes - you're right and compassionate. Brave words indeed, Kim - but maybe your inner critic (to blast you with some more psychobabble) was over-harsh? We do what we can. If we feel ourselves becoming smug, then let's change by all means - smugness is a worse fault than anger in my view. But to be entirely with another person and see them for what they are and need is never easy, and smugness is reassuring. So maybe, instead of turning a knife on others or ourselves for smugness, we can learn to work round it? It is a disease of the mind, like any other, like martyrdom...

Alta	18 May 2005
Kim, I second the words above. I also feel that way, wanting so much for my readings to feel grounded in reality. Sometimes you can't do that, because the issues are all inside the other person. Keep going, all will be well. Marion

Adjustment	18 May 2005
Thanks Kim for sharing the experience, the same thing has happened to me in the past with different readers i went to see for guidance. a reader sometimes can be influenced by many factors such as religions, social and moral. Some readers can view a sitter with prejudice. You are very brave kim.

Julien	18 May 2005
I agree, very brave words Kim. I do think reading is awfully hard, and sometimes the cards can seem to say such important things. I think Helvetica is right -- smugness is a disease of the mind and we need to work around it, through it -- figure out what part of ourselves is allowing us to be smug. Because, like a lot of ego-based reactions, I think it has as much to do with ourselves as our view of the person we're reading for. I had a reading not too long ago and as I looked at the cards and listened to the reader, I thought she was really off. I mean, the cards could have meant what she was seeing but she seemed to frame most of the reading around one card in particular. It struck me as being very obvious, actually. She was certain she was right, though, and that my life would soon be filled with doom and gloom. I was very glad that when the week and situation she was reading for was rough, per the cards on the table, it wasn't at all rough in the way she saw it in the reading. No doom and gloom, just plans unmade and frustrations due to circumstances beyond my control. I don't know what was wrong that day, but I think she was just having her own set of problems and reacted very strongly to one particular card... And so that may be my other point: those of us on the receiving end might try to be more understanding when a reader is having troubles along these lines. They are doing the best they can, but sometimes their just having their own troubles in that moment. Julien

ncefafn	18 May 2005
Yes, you're all -- all of you -- right. And Umbrae, right back at ya. :) Kim

mingbop	18 May 2005
well....you learned something and have gone up the ladder a step, because you see a mistake you made.. Brilliant. It's the ones who don't learn or don't see who are the failures pet xxx mary

wellspring	18 May 2005
Hi ncefafn Just wanted to post to say really admire you recognising the lesson and having the honesty and guts to post this thread. Too few people do that, so a huge well done! I recently had a reading that was as you'd described, a bit smug and dismissive, and it hurt/didn't help at all/set me back regarding trusting readers. That one more person understands how vital it is to relate and care, is just great. Cat x

Nevada	18 May 2005
Is it possible we do this without realizing it? Does this part of us sometimes automatically engage when the intution doesn't? Nevada, worrying she's done the same--with apologies.

HOLMES	18 May 2005
we as tarot readers know that when we read we interprate the cards as best as we can. and our natural personalities comes through as well. for it to be otherwise would have to have an computer program doing the reading for us. the issues wouldnt' be in the person,, just that you the client may have issues with their approach to reading. religious, philopshy-psycho babble, and mystic babble, who wants to hear that the hermit may be a virgo according to the golden dawn and so lets examine that ,, when you want to move on to the next card. if you were paying would you not want the whole money worth? one thing i have a theory about is if even the card is reversed, or doesnt' fit the situation the card that falls must have a reason, a teaching,, or the whole reading philopshy would fall apart. perhaps in the case of the person reading focused one card is because logically it made the most sense to them, that perhaps their inuition told them. I am wondering what smugness means ? i do know that when i am done reading the card i say that is all i get from it.(you can see me say that in live chat when I do a reading) energy wise but i do hear you who wants to go to a tarot reader who starts talking about their men issues, their problems with the bible, their problems with politics, their problems with psychology, their problem with sexuality, their problem with violence. then again tarot readers are not perfect though we strive to be the best we can be, we are just human. perhpaps as we see here the idealized professional tarot reader no matter if they are getting paid or not should change.. for we are seeing here that we who are tarot readers ourselves get offended when a person issues come to light.. (this is reference to the statements after i hear you ,, and not before for sometimes our buttons get pushed by what is said and we think to ourselves how dare you ) and we know that we shouldnt' judge for we have all done,, or we wouldnt' be human. and so it is good to be read for it is an humbling experience. when i am read for here on the reading exchange I dont' look at the card, but the information given. for that is what we are here for. and if that information doenst' relate to my mind right now consciously i look at the card itself to see if the meanings were based on what i know about the tarot or could be taken into a new light. then if it i makes no sense to me, i wait a bit and come back and look at it again. because my mind doens't like it sometiems i have to take a bit of time.. for i know the person did their best and didn't do it to tell me off, or judge me, or prove their way of doing the tarot is the best. it is for those reasons i dont' like to read for family and close friends(who dont' know anything about the tarot and reading) for who wants to hurt their feelings, or have our friendship strained. yet for those know how the tarot works (as much as anyone can know eheh) and the reading process so i expect them to understand being neutral, trying to read impartially, yet know that tarot readers are human as well

wellspring	18 May 2005
I think that if doing a reading, and aware that there's a nagging realisation of maybe being out of depth, e.g. with someone who's been through a lot, then maybe being honest and compassionately saying that you can tell that a great deal's happened and that, although you may not have experienced similar, what you CAN offer is care, listening and some kind of insight, then I feel that's a really respectful way to treat someone and to prevent any harm. It also makes sure the querent isn't left feeling 'odd' or unable to be helped, and also there is the chance that with more open channels, you find more can be intuited and come through in the reading. Even if it is a small amount, openly discussed, this could be what the querent needs in order to clear a block and move to the next step where they'll be drawn to another reader or something else that will help them more deeply. The querent may have, subconsciously, needed to visit a reader, for the first time ever, to just get a bit of confidence regarding opening up and actually visiting a reader, something as simple as that. So it isn't to say the reader they first go to is lacking, as they no doubt will be drawing on where they are and what they've experienced and how much they've developed, and help many other querents fine ... it is a learning curve for readers alike, and I think the lesson of dealing more honestly and compassionately, when encountering someone in a tougher place with deeper questions and issues, is a positive thing to bring through. The querent can really appreciate and benefit from a reader's honesty and warmth, and I am sure the openness can be a great relief all-round, as well as preventing any harm to the querent, or worry for the reader. I also feel that it can be difficult for a querent, after feeling dismissed/upset, to openly say how they feel, but maybe if the reader asked one more time if everything was okay, then the querent has an opportunity to be able to say how they feel, and there can be some honest talk that can go a long way to really putting things right. As long as do best to be tuned in, to deal honestly and compassionately, to listen to any doubts and act on them, to be humble, to just make sure the querent's genuinely okay, then that is something really positive. Even just keeping in mind that very few people going through a lot are able to vocalise it easily, especially with a reader they've only just met and are with for a brief time, or about something they've not spoken about before etc. And if, on checking again that the querent is okay, they just can't say, and you do feel that things didn't go well, then it just has to be a personal lesson - try to comprehend where they're at, wish them well, and go with what your own heart and doubts are telling you is a lesson. That's a commendable thing to do. Just to finish another longer-than-planned post!, it may also signal that there's something deeper in the reader that needs healing, so the channels can open more, especially if a reader is finding that a good number of their querents do have deeper issues etc. Cat

Anna	18 May 2005
What comes to mind for me as I read this thread, is that it is the hidden and unconcious prejudices, values and attitudes that are dangerous. Not the ones we are aware of. I reckon most of us would do our best to give a good and helpful reading. We would try to be non-judgemental, and to make sure the advice and insight we gave was careing and compassionate. But sometimes a reading for someone can tap into one of our unconcious prejudices (which we all have) - and we begin speaking from that, rather than from compassion and careing. And it dosn't stop there. What about the querent who reminds you about things that you really dislike about yourself? Or worse, the querent who reminds you of your bossy and overbearing mother? If these things happen at a concious level, then we can handle it, recognise its happening and put it to one side. But when it happens at an unconcious level, it can really throw even the most sensitive reader off track. Reading. Its all about relationships. Even a 15 minute reading for someone you will never see again involves a relationship. Kim, I've done exactly the same as you. And I will probablly continue to do so from time to time for as long as I read Tarot for others. Because I'm human, and because relationships are complicated and messy things.

Julien	18 May 2005
I do agree that reading is all about relationships, and relationships are messy things. I think that as a reader, I do my level best to step away from my own issues before reading -- meditate, relax, let go. Because it's not just that someone else's readings my tap into my own prejudices -- these readings might tap into my own problems. In the situation I wrote about earlier in the thread, I do not know whether my reader was having a particular set of difficulties. But as she read, my sixth sense told me that she was reading more into the cards than was there. It was a combination of looking at the cards on the table, and listening to her. That particular reading had a specific time frame to it, and when the time frame passed, I was certain that the reading had been off. But because of this, I've thought hard about how I look at the cards when I do a reading... I recently did a reading for MercyMe for the COS, and because certain cards turned up that have been coming up a lot in my personal readings when I threw (um, actually, all of the cards that have been haunting me showed up all at once -- never happened before, but was a rather wild experience), I wrote the spread down and set it aside. Then I grabbed a different deck, closed my eyes and cleared my mind for awhile, and then threw again. New cards came up, but I still told Mercy that I may have been interfering with my own throw on some level. I felt she should know so that we could sort it out together -- that's the relationship part of the reading, I think. If I, as a reader, become aware that something isn't quite right (and depending upon what is wrong and who I'm reading for), I think I'll always try to talk about it with the querent. It may be that she has something I need to know, and that's really what the Tarot is telling me. Julien

Moongold	18 May 2005
CharmingPixie wrote: What comes to mind for me as I read this thread, is that it is the hidden and unconcious prejudices, values and attitudes that are dangerous. Not the ones we are aware of. I reckon most of us would do our best to give a good and helpful reading. We would try to be non-judgemental, and to make sure the advice and insight we gave was careing and compassionate. But sometimes a reading for someone can tap into one of our unconcious prejudices (which we all have) - and we begin speaking from that, rather than from compassion and careing. And it dosn't stop there. What about the querent who reminds you about things that you really dislike about yourself? Or worse, the querent who reminds you of your bossy and overbearing mother? If these things happen at a concious level, then we can handle it, recognise its happening and put it to one side. But when it happens at an unconcious level, it can really throw even the most sensitive reader off track. Reading. Its all about relationships. Even a 15 minute reading for someone you will never see again involves a relationship. Kim, I've done exactly the same as you. And I will probablly continue to do so from time to time for as long as I read Tarot for others. Because I'm human, and because relationships are complicated and messy things. I think this post is so true that I couldn't isolate any part of it. But I think CP also touches on that part of our personal experience and spirituality which enhances our compassion and understanding. Most of us are not trained therapists and can't always become tabula rasas for Querents. Sometimes not even trained therapists do that successfully. But we all have personal experiences which may influence our reading, and may even be valued by the Querent. I think we need to always remember that we are simply Tarot readers and concentrate on what we see in the cards. Some of us do see themes and issues that are not concrete but nonetheless very powerful and may offer them to the Querent in good faith. It is HOW we do this that is important, and this where the question of being "patronising" may enter the reading. On the one hand, sometimes people are so sensitive and edgy they will take a suggestion that one doesn't go into the rain without an umbrella as patronising and pushy. And from another perspective, if we see that the client has really complex issues then perhaps we need to withdraw from the reading or keep it simple but authentic, acknowledging our limitations and suggesting a referral elsewhere, or simply letting go. I am going to say something heretical here. The Querent also has a responsibility. S/he may be vulnerable sure but s/he is also adult and able to discern and judge for herself about what to take and what to leave behind - just as she would with a next door neighbour or a friend in the street. We are simply Tarot Readers after all. We are human beings who love and study the Tarot. WE ARE NOT CERTIFIED TO DO ANYTHING :) :) :) :) and we sternly resist that don't we? But we usually do the best we can as human beings and Tarot lovers and students at any one moment. If we are also querents with complex issues maybe we need to seek assistance from wise and skilled people other than Tarot readers. One word about Aeclectic and the Reading Exchange , and Your Readings - these Forums are part of a learning community. Many of us are learning the Tarot as a divinatory tool and as a tool for personal and spiritual development. Maybe it would be good to have some sort of disclaimer to this effect as a sticky at the commencement of each forum or maybe it could be emphasized in the Forum rules. This might help people have more realistic expectations and to take each reading as a gift which offers us something of and from the human being at the other side of the cyber table.

Julien	18 May 2005
I can't imagine there's much of a need for a disclaimer at the Reader Exchange... I only it up as a place where I applied the lesson I learned in an in-person professional reading. And the point, of course, isn't at all to make any of us feel defensive -- it's just that sometimes readings are off, and sometimes readers need to take a step back and recognize that the learning is a two way street. As do querents. J

HOLMES	18 May 2005
i must say there hasn't been a reading where i didnt' learn something new, or seen the cards in a differnt way. speaking from my own point of view on the comments i made on this thread.

Julien	18 May 2005
Amen, Holmes.

ncefafn	18 May 2005
I should probably state a few things at this juncture: 1. The reader in question was no one on this forum (at least, as far as I'm aware of) 2. I asked a very complex question -- and I gave full background so that the reader would understand why it was so complex -- about a multi-layered friend/relationship problem involving three people. 3. The spread the reader chose did not address anything related to the question I asked, but strictly dealt with what she perceived to be my issues. 4. What I got from this reading was not any advice on how to deal with that relationship problem; however, the reading qua reading did provide a mirror in which I saw some things in my own style of reading that I realize now are very distasteful, to say the least. 5. I did not post this thread in order to be congratulated on my honesty. In truth, I'm starting to feel like Charles Van Doren at the end of "Quiz Show," so I'll quote the words of Rep. Derounian: Congressman Derounian: I'm happy that you've made the statement. But I cannot agree with most of my colleagues. See, I don't think an adult of your intellegence should be commended for simply, at long last, telling the truth. Sincerely, Kim

HOLMES	18 May 2005
it sounds like she did a what does ncfan need to know right now but not about the question eh? that is a big thing for me,, when doing such a question especially in chat is ask "do you want it to be on anything" i guess one could say that was what you needed to know right now, problems you may of seen in your own reading style :) question has anyone complianed to you about your reading style before? if not then previously you did well, now with what you have in mind to how to improve your reading style it will get better now.:)

Rusty Neon	18 May 2005
ncefafn wrote: The reason for this revelation is that I asked a friend to give me a reading to help sort out some interpersonal dynamics of a very complicated nature. Instead of an in-depth analysis of my options and the likely outcomes, I got a "What does Kim need to know about this situation," with a lot of psychobabble thrown in, all based on her prejudgment about me. In my view, tarot isn't a prediction tool: You can analyze options but not necessarily be able to tell the querent the likely outcomes. As well, in my view, answering the less-predictive question "What does X need to know about this situation" isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as you're really reading the cards rather than intentionally/unintentionally using the cards as a prop.

wellspring	18 May 2005
I always feel that anyone offering a service, especially one that deals with emotions and personal issues, has to be properly responsible, as, although it is a 2-way thing in certain ways, a querent comes in good faith, often not knowing what to expect, trusting the reader, and expecting that the reader will help not harm. I'm sure that's a given that we all understand and work by. Anyone who puts forward their services to 'any and all' is responsible for knowing how they will deal with 'any and all' when they come, even if that is to simply show compassion and talk about where else they could go. Having a simple list of what resources there are available locally could be a great way to help querents. As maybe an odd-sounding and more extreme example, but for some reason the only one that's come into my mind ... a gas fitter advertises his services and has to do the job right ... if he doesn't, it could seriously affect others, and it isn't up to his customers to take half the responsibility. Not all querents are in such stressful circumstances, but with some, especially nowadays, it could occasionally be at make or break time that they consult a reader. I just get worried reading about that it's up to querents too ... with respect to Moongold, as I'm not trying to criticise. If a reading is harmful on some level, that does not mean that the querent is immature or incapable of discernment, but that the reader has not handled things very well. A querent opens up, often at a time of confusion or upset, or even danger, and I feel it's a bit hard to lay onto the querent even more pressure and any unnecessary responsibility. Querents come from all walks and levels of life and spirituality, and if it's someone who is brand new to tarot/looking within, but who is otherwise very capable, or someone who's very young, or in a really desperate situation, each reading/querent needs different approaches etc. It seems unfair to put more pressure on the more vulnerable querents, who have simply taken up the offer of a service, in good faith, and which they may also have paid (a lot) for. I'm sure many querents are discerning and would just choose to not return to the reader or to not give good reports about them. Learning to deal with querent's vulnerabilities and the tough issues that sometimes come up is surely the making of the reader and what Tarot is all about ... going to those vulnerable places and healing them. However mature or discerning a querent is, and whether it's in the context of a reading or anything else, everyone's human and gets affected, at least for a short time, by a bad experience or a lack of understanding etc etc. I just feel that if that can be avoided, surely that's a good thing! Cat

Mesara	18 May 2005
It sounds like your friend may have been stifled in her reading by the use of a spread here.. You say she didn't address your question but instead went on to tell you what your issues were.. It sounds to me that maybe she didn't know how to apply the cards and their positions to your question, and so she chose a different angle... Could it simply have been a matter of inexperience on her part? All I know is that when I get questions like yours (heavy, complex, emotionally driven) I typically forgo the use of spreads (they are very limiting and rigid in my opinion, hard to apply to specific questions and unique situations). I bring this up because I just can't stomach the thought of your friend treating you so carelessly on purpose.. using the cards as a medium for her own agenda... If she had things to say to you, she should have done so as your friend, not as your tarot reader... Im sorry Ncefafn, that really sucks. But Im glad you posted this.. It's a good reminder for us all on how it can feel to be on the other end of a reading.. Thank you

Nevada	18 May 2005
Moongold wrote: The Querent also has a responsibility. S/he may be vulnerable sure but s/he is also adult and able to discern and judge for herself about what to take and what to leave behind - just as she would with a next door neighbour or a friend in the street. We are simply Tarot Readers after all. We are human beings who love and study the Tarot. WE ARE NOT CERTIFIED TO DO ANYTHING :) :) :) :) and we sternly resist that don't we? But we usually do the best we can as human beings and Tarot lovers and students at any one moment. If we are also querents with complex issues maybe we need to seek assistance from wise and skilled people other than Tarot readers. This is how I most often think of tarot readings. As a conversation with someone who should be thought of more as a friend or informal mentor than anything more. If we pay them, we're paying for their time and energy more than for anything else. You take your friends' advice at all times with a grain of salt, depending on what you know of them and their experience, their wisdom, their abililty to see things objectively. A tarot reader is in many regards the same thing. When we go to a reader who isn't a friend or relative we hope we get a more objective filter for the readings, but even then that may not be true. First and foremost they are a human being, licensed only to be themselves. Objectivity is nearly impossible to come by, which is why judges are usually trained and experienced in the letter of the law, and juries come in sets of more than one--to help cancel out subjectivity. Moongold wrote: One word about Aeclectic and the Reading Exchange , and Your Readings - these Forums are part of a learning community. Many of us are learning the Tarot as a divinatory tool and as a tool for personal and spiritual development. Maybe it would be good to have some sort of disclaimer to this effect as a sticky at the commencement of each forum or maybe it could be emphasized in the Forum rules. This might help people have more realistic expectations and to take each reading as a gift which offers us something of and from the human being at the other side of the cyber table. I agree wholeheartedly with this. The easiest to most difficult for me to read for (easiest is 1, most difficult is 4): 1. stranger 2. acquaintance or distant friend or relative 3. myself 4. close friend or relative It's easier to read for myself than a very close friend or relative, because I'm not worried about getting my reading wrong, or hurting my own feelings. This sometimes causes my spouse some consternation, because I tend not to give him a very elaborate reading. With someone so close, it's very difficult for me to break through my strong feelings to that intuitive/objective place from which I prefer to read. Once I do, my expression of it has to be weighed carefully. I don't want to control via tarot. I try to save the honey-do items for non-tarot conversations. ;) But when I read for myself, I can let fly with all the you musts and shoulds . . . not that I'll necessarily listen to myself. :D Nevada

Moongold	19 May 2005
I’ve been troubled by the some aspects of the ongoing discussion about respective rights and responsibilities of Querents and Readers. The relationship between a reader and a querent should be one of respect and trust – as hopefully other relationships between friends and neighbours are and even those between casual acquaintenances. We used to have things called Learning Exchanges in Victoria where people would exchange time and skills for other things. Sometimes the exchange might be for material goods, sometimes simply skills and time. Always an atmosphere of mutuality and respect would prevail. I have always seen that the same standards apply in our own Reading Exchange and Your Readings Forums. What has troubled me about there recent discussions around Reader Responsibilities is that some of us seem to be expecting the standards required of the professions in our society whilst not requiring the same standards of training and accountability. We do have a right to expect certain standards from professionals because they have undertaken years of training, often at public expense, and they then market their skills and expertise for quite large sums of money. . If they are really unprofessional then action can be taken against them. There are often laws, regulations and professional associations which set standards for their behaviour and monitor them. Because we are not a profession we can do nothing to protect the vulnerable against exploitation or poor readings. All we can do is the best we can ourselves. And those of us who are not satisfied with the readings they receive from others should actually let them know. It does not have to be right away. It can be much later, when you feel strong enough to do that. If we regard the readings as a gift, or the best a person can do at any given moment, then perhaps there will be no where near the same disappointment or anger sometimes expressed here. We simply shrug our shoulders and move on. For people who receive payment for their readings, I like the distinction Nevada makes about paying for people’s time and energy, not the Tarot reading itself. But you conduct your own businesses and can market yourselves as you wish. There is nothing to regulate you but yourselves.

Moongold	19 May 2005
wellspring wrote: IAs maybe an odd-sounding and more extreme example, but for some reason the only one that's come into my mind ... a gas fitter advertises his services and has to do the job right ... if he doesn't, it could seriously affect others, and it isn't up to his customers to take half the responsibility. Not all querents are in such stressful circumstances, but with some, especially nowadays, it could occasionally be at make or break time that they consult a reader. I just get worried reading about that it's up to querents too ... with respect to Moongold, as I'm not trying to criticise. If a reading is harmful on some level, that does not mean that the querent is immature or incapable of discernment, but that the reader has not handled things very well. A querent opens up, often at a time of confusion or upset, or even danger, and I feel it's a bit hard to lay onto the querent even more pressure and any unnecessary responsibility. Querents come from all walks and levels of life and spirituality, and if it's someone who is brand new to tarot/looking within, but who is otherwise very capable, or someone who's very young, or in a really desperate situation, each reading/querent needs different approaches etc. It seems unfair to put more pressure on the more vulnerable querents, who have simply taken up the offer of a service, in good faith, and which they may also have paid (a lot) for. I'm sure many querents are discerning and would just choose to not return to the reader or to not give good reports about them. Learning to deal with querent's vulnerabilities and the tough issues that sometimes come up is surely the making of the reader and what Tarot is all about ... going to those vulnerable places and healing them. However mature or discerning a querent is, and whether it's in the context of a reading or anything else, everyone's human and gets affected, at least for a short time, by a bad experience or a lack of understanding etc etc. I just feel that if that can be avoided, surely that's a good thing! Cat I don't think the comparison between the gas fitter and the Tarot reader is a valid one at all and have given my reasons in a prior post. :) Wellspring, I have not done readings for money and can't comment on the sorts of people who present for readings in such circumstances. I think a lot would depend on the reader being very open and honest about what s/he can and can't do and working with the querent in an empowering way. There would be some open discussion about what the reader can provide the querent. In any situation, it does not matter whether it is Tarot reading or psychological counselling you are always going to get some situations where the querent or the client is unhappy with the reading or the therapy. It is inevitable given the issues at hand. That does not necessarily mean the reader has been disrespectful or harmful.

wellspring	19 May 2005
Hello Moongold The analogy I used is valid, and has been mistaken. You're not understanding why I was using it. It was used to express that some querents are in desperate situations, and come to the tarot as a vital service, which, if it blows up in their face, due to a bad/insensitive reader, then it can cause real damage emotionally and/or mentally. My concern was in trying to make sure this doesn't happen. Have done a lot of carework in a lot of areas in the past, and seen many people, some in severe situations, who couldn't easily brush off a bad reading, and who could be badly set back by a bad reading. My own learning and practice of tarot is that it is a very responsible service. I was taught/read/studied, that the 2-way side of things happens in that the querent receives the reading, and the reader always learns and benefits in some way naturally, that things always balance out. Of course if money is involved, that's part of the exchange also. Of course on this forum, the reading exchange is exactly that, an exchange for learning purposes. But I'm talking about offline readings. --------------- "I am going to say something heretical here. The Querent also has a responsibility. S/he may be vulnerable sure but s/he is also adult and able to discern and judge for herself about what to take and what to leave behind - just as she would with a next door neighbour or a friend in the street. " ------------ This was what concerned me, as it seemed to say that the querent should be more discerning and mature and responsible in these things, with maybe less onus on the reader taking the correct amount of responsibility. And my point in an earlier response was that not every querent is able to discern or take responsibility as you describe .. many aren't familiar with the tarot, readings, how to guage a reader, etc, or are in stressful situations where the luxury of such clear thought isn't there. Yes, we're just tarot readers and human. But I also feel it's better to not add to a querent's burden by putting unnecessary responsibilities on them. I realise a querent can just walk away and dismiss a bad reading, but my point is that not all querents are able to do that. . Maybe it's down to different approaches to tarot. I'm not reading at this time, but when I do I'd expect a querent to be self-responsible only regarding if and how they work with what's been given; but I wouldn't expect the querent to be responsible for a bad or confusing reading. I feel a querent shouldn't have to be almost doing their own interpretation by discerning what's right to take or leave ... surely that's the reader's job, to clarify that for the querent. I'm puzzled as to how a querent can be expected to be able to do this for themselves, unless they themselves were a proficient reader or had studied the cards a lot. Cat

Moongold	19 May 2005
wellspring wrote: Hello Moongold The analogy I used is valid, and has been mistaken. You're not understanding why I was using it. A gas fitter is not going to expect a client to take responsibility for a gas service blowing up in his face unless something untoward has happened and the client has tried to repair the gas fitting himself. My point was about professionalism and the right to expect certain standards from tradespeople and professionals because they are expected to have certain qualifications and training. These industries and the professiona are regulated as well, whilst Tarot is not. I do not see that you can equate Tarot reading with gas fitting even so. It is really hard to generalise but if a client presents for some advice or assistance about a complex emotional issue then I would wonder why a tarot reader would be prepared to give such advice if she didn't have the training to do it. She would have to say that all she does is read the cards and be careful not to give advice. If she did give a reading it might be as well for her to give a referral to an agency or person perhaps more able to help. The issue here is the approach of the Tarot reader, which sometimes is more important than the content of the reading. Mutuality and respect. You and I, in this respect, are not saying anything different. As stated earlier, I am concerned that Tarot readers see thenselves as professionals without having the same standards around education, training and service delivery. You and many others may be excellent readers but you would not purport to take on a role with a client that really belongs somewhere else. As with many such interchanges -whether they are Tarot reading or therapy - it is your relationship with the person - the fact that you are attentive and care - that is more important than the content of the reading or the therapy. Also, I think we often have to encourage people to see that they have choices before they can take responsibility for them. It may be a process, but eventually we would want people to make their own choices. It sometimes takes a bad or less than rewarding experience for people to realise that they can shop around and choose Tarot readers as much as doctors. Quote: "I am going to say something heretical here. The Querent also has a responsibility. S/he may be vulnerable sure but s/he is also adult and able to discern and judge for herself about what to take and what to leave behind - just as she would with a next door neighbour or a friend in the street." ------------ This was what concerned me, as it seemed to say that the querent should be more discerning and mature and responsible in these things, with maybe less onus on the reader taking the correct amount of responsibility. And my point in an earlier response was that not every querent is able to discern or take responsibility as you describe .. many aren't familiar with the tarot, readings, how to guage a reader, etc, or are in stressful situations where the luxury of such clear thought isn't there. Yes, we're just tarot readers and human. But I also feel it's better to not add to a querent's burden by putting unnecessary responsibilities on them. I realise a querent can just walk away and dismiss a bad reading, but my point is that not all querents are able to do that. . Ah, but you have read a lot more into my words than was there - a helluva lot more actually :). Your own self-described approach is about assisting people to be discerning and to make informed choices. That is all I am saying as well. Wellspring wrote: Maybe it's down to different approaches to tarot. I'm not reading at this time, but when I do I'd expect a querent to be self-responsible only regarding if and how they work with what's been given; but I wouldn't expect the querent to be responsible for a bad or confusing reading. I feel a querent shouldn't have to be almost doing their own interpretation by discerning what's right to take or leave ... surely that's the reader's job, to clarify that for the querent. I'm puzzled as to how a querent can be expected to be able to do this for themselves, unless they themselves were a proficient reader or had studied the cards a lot. Where did I say that querents should take responsibility for bad or confusing readings? Also, by the way, a very good reading can be confusing too :). And an excellent reading may not satisfy a very needy querent. I think these arguments may not be helpful. What we all agree upon is that the relationship should be mutual and respectful. If that happens then that is the best we can do. Many blessings and peace.

wellspring	19 May 2005
I don't think this is going anywhere, as you are determined to put down the valid analogy I used for very good reasons, and are now saying back to me the things I was saying in other posts! I wasn't discussing professional readers, but picking up on a statement you yourself said was heretical about responsibilities being put more on querents. I'm not saying the same about things ..... in both tarot and therapy, I feel the approach and content matter equally, but then I wasn't discussing that at all. I'm not saying that a reader would give advice in a complex situation if not trained for it. I said if a reader was trained that was a bonus. I wasn't discussing training though, but the responsibility to treat each querent with the relevant sensitivity. I had already suggested in an earlier post that having a list of local agencies handy could be something really helpful to a querent. I wasn't agreeing with your point about querents being discerning .... I was saying that I feel they are self-responsible regarding how they work with a reading, but not responsible for a reader's bad reading or for having to discern and comprehend a reading more than they should, which is the reader's job. My points about querents who are too vulnerable or stressed to be able to do this has been missed. I'm afraid all the points I'm making are being totally missed, which is a shame, as my concern is for querents first and foremost. The forum is about expressing different views and learning new things, agreeing on some points, differing on others. I've already said the points I agree on, and they were different to the ones you've said. We have differing views on the subject, and I'll leave it at agreeing to differ, and wish you well. Cat

Fudugazi	19 May 2005
Well, I can see the importance of taking responsibility as a reader - and unlike Moongold I don't think that the word professional is reserved to people with diplomas; the fact there is no professional body puts the onus even more on the individual reader. But who is to judge? If I receive a reading that shocks and hurts me because it reveals something I had hidden in me, is the reader wrong? Has she taken less than good care? That is where the gas fitters analogy stops being useful. He fits a boiler, it works or it doesn't work, period. But a tarot session can work and still blow you up. I know - I've had at least two readings like that. It was only later I realised they had "worked". In one case it opened floodgates. Was the reader less than caring? Well, she was not. She was very caring and suggested I go and see a therapist. But she hurt, right there. The other day, on this forum, I received a reading which I just didn't understand; I thought it had little to do with me or my concerns, and I even winced a little. I let it rest for a week, and gave no feedback. But the other night something happened in my life that suddenly gave its full meaning to that reading. The reading had been written in a light-hearted vein, but in was not light-hearted. In that frame of mind, I could easily have waved it away as smug, but I knew enough of the reader to know she is anything but smug, so I didn't. If I had put it away as dismissive and wrong, given that feedback and walked away from it, I would not have got out of it what I did, eventually, by letting it work in me. That is the responsibility of the querent. But once I received a reading that was less than caring - it was downright dismissive. That reader was "accurate" but very uncaring. Why was he like that? It was not his reputation. It was an off day for him, I think. Because it was dismissive, I was able, in turn, to dismiss it, which made me lose 25 quid, but did not break my heart. The human heart is not a boiler. If only it was - so much easier to make and fix and change boilers! When I give a reading, so much goes into the mix - and most of all the relationship I establish with the querent. And sometimes it means hurting the querent, and sometimes their inner boiler will blow up and they will be angry, because something that had to come out did come out. That's the meaning of the Tower card, remember? And in the fall-out, readers can get some rap too. As readers, that doesn't take away a single drop of the duty of care we owe our querent. But it does place us in context and forces us to be humble. We're not divine, we don't control very much. We can only read pictures on cards and take care of the person sitting before us as best we know how.

Moongold	19 May 2005
Helvetica wrote: Well, I can see the importance of taking responsibility as a reader - and unlike Moongold I don't think that the word professional is reserved to people with diplomas; the fact there is no professional body puts the onus even more on the individual reader. It's academic but I use the word professional in the sense of advanced learning which qualifies people for particular tasks for which they get much respect, responsibility, much money and often great social status too. Most often these people do have academic training but not always. The "professions" are often ruled by associations. Crafts people are the same. I would sooner see Tarot as an art/craft. :) I agree with you that the absence of this framework does more responsibility on to the Reader.

HOLMES	19 May 2005
well spring:) kim i apolgize if i was too hard in my attempts to be honest for i may of come across as judgemental, or trying to analyze you when i was looking at the options instead. edited to add sometimes i don't know my own strength in the way i write and come across as trying to be too authoriatiative :)

MeeWah	19 May 2005
This thread was temporarily removed for review. Those posts deemed as inappropriate &/or out of context to the topic have been removed to restore the discussion to its focus. ~MeeWah Co-Moderator, Talking Tarot

Moongold	19 May 2005
.....

catti	19 May 2005
watching this thread for a while... when i started reading i learned this phrase, i dont know who said it but i keep it in mind often "the fool asks the question, the fool answers the question"

Dark Inquisitor	20 May 2005
ncefafn wrote: 2. I asked a very complex question -- and I gave full background so that the reader would understand why it was so complex -- about a multi-layered friend/relationship problem involving three people. 3. The spread the reader chose did not address anything related to the question I asked, but strictly dealt with what she perceived to be my issues . I become a bit peeved if a reader chooses a spread that doesn't cover my question, is too general to provide any specific advice, or adds in issues I didn't ask about at all . I think sometimes readers just don't consider these things very much, and perhaps books don't either. A couple of questions: You gave a detailed background . Is it possible that the two of you were just talking past each other and she completely misunderstood you ? (Fulgour and I have worked out a complete system for doing this. ;) ) Or that you gave a lot of information and she just couldn't deal with it and decided to make it simplified and lost the gist of it that way? If so, perhaps she didn't mean to be smug, but just thought she was giving you what you asked for. Were you able to get anything of value out of the cards on your own? In other words, was your own interpretation of the cards she pulled relevant to your situation ? Sometimes the proper cards arise, but the reader just doesn't know how to interpret them or apply them very well.

Moongold	20 May 2005
I have read through every post in this thread and can see in the clear light of day how Wellspring and I misunderstood each other completely. From my point of view some of the occurred because I did not read her earlier posts and reacted to one of her later ones. I should acknowledge also that I am tired of hearing criticisms of readers on Aeclectic. There have been a number of quite tough threads and incidental posts about this over the six months and I thought Kim’s initial post was yet another until she clarified that it was not. So I was working from preoccupation with Aeclectic readings not external ones, although the boundaries were blurred as Wellspring and I delved further. Wellspring acknowledged in one of her posts that she was referring to off-line readings, with which she is very experienced. I think Wellspring missed some of what I said as well but to be perfectly honest I could not have expected her to know my frame of reference. This is only my analysis and I can’t speak for her but I think we are people who are probably quite good listeners normally. As a new member, Wellspring would not have been aware of the principle of not quoting PM’s in public forums either or of the principle of dealing with personal disagreements by PM rather than in public discussions. In a sense we may have enacted what the thread was about: the reality of actually hearing what someone else is saying. It is clear that both us feel the other did not hear and both of us have been upset by it. I apologise to Wellspring for any distress my “not listening” or not reading earlier posts may have caused her and hope we both can move on from here. I tried to apologise by PM but that has not been possible. I would also like this apology to stand by itself, not requiring further comment from anyone.

Fairawen	20 May 2005
*blink blink* Ooook-ay, now that that is over with, I'll take part in this thread. :) Kim, I understand what you're talking about, though possibly in a different sense. I'm not entirely sure, you'll have to tell me if this is how you feel or not. :P I was on a roll. A tarot roll. Here on the Reading Exchange, I had recently been getting readings more and more accurate, getting very personal with some people, even predicting a marriage (sort of anyway. Yes and no. I pulled a card, told them what I saw, and they said they were engaged and that's what it was talking about. I kinda figured it was something to that degree, but anyway...). I was pretty darn proud of myself, considering I've only been in tarot two years. So, another person asked for a reading, and I was ready to give one. A day or so later, when the person gave me feeback, I realized just how utterly off my reading had been. At what I had thought the top of my game! It was then that I understood. Stupid me!!! My pride had blinded me. I went back and looked over the reading, and realized just how darn pompus I had sounded. As if I knew everything, and the querrent was just a poor, helpless pleeb! I was embaressed and ashamed of myself the more I read. I then went and read feeback for a reading that someone else had done for me, and the 5 of Swords came up. I instantly knew that this was what the card was talking about. I have, since that time, made extra care not to let my head to get blown up. I may be a tarot reader, but I'm still human. Tarot never elevates you that high. Sure, it says that you've studied something and understand it, and can use it. But that doesn't say your any better then anyone else. And if you aren't willing to realize that, you'll fall quite quickly and abrubtly on your arse. :) And that's my two cense. ~Fairawen~

ncefafn	28 May 2005
Hi, DI. Yes, I think I may have overwhelmed her with too much background, and that probably led to her choosing a spread that didn't really work. Dark Inquisitor wrote: Were you able to get anything of value out of the cards on your own? In other words, was your own interpretation of the cards she pulled relevant to your situation ? Sometimes the proper cards arise, but the reader just doesn't know how to interpret them or apply them very well. :) Yes, I did do this, and she got mad at me for doing that. She said if I were going to interpret the cards on my own, why did I bother her in the first place? She chewed me a new one, when I was trying to be as tactful as I could be with my feedback. (Granted, tact was never my strong suit.) We haven't spoken since. Ah, well. Kim

WalesWoman	28 May 2005
Some readers do tend to take offense when querants try to get their own meaning from a reading. LOL

The A public apology thread was originally posted on 18 May 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.