Catholic Tarot Readers

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 31 May 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

blashamma	31 May 2005
I'm not Catholic, but a friend of mine is. I've shown him some of the cards that I have made, and he really liked them. he said he wanted to make his own tarot deck and use them butt hat it was sacreligious. I said that I'm sure there are plenty of Catholic Tarot readers because Tarot isn't a religious thing. He then pointed out Deuteronomy, 18:10 and Livitecus 19:26. Of course, he also pointed out several scriptures in the Bible that claimed divination to be either a good thing or not necessarily a bad thing. i thought there were Catholic Tarot readers, but now I'm not sure. So if you are one, let me know what you think. I know that because of the hostory of the Bible, it has been mistranslated many times, and I think that maybe a word like "divination" could be mistranslated. I'm not sure. Let me know!

Fudugazi	31 May 2005
There are two well-known Catholic books about the Tarot. One by an Irish monk, Mark Patrick Hederman, called Tarot: Talisman and Taboo; the other the Meditations on the Tarot (the late Pope even had a copy!), by Tomberg. Both these books use the Tarot de Marseille as their deck of choice (though it can't be called a Catholic deck in the strict orthodox sense as it has strong hermetic and neoplatonic elements: but that was the nature of a certain branch of Christianity when Tarot was invented, and certainly in France and Switzerland many Catholics use it). Another one he might want to investigate is Robert Place's Tarot of Saints, and yet another - very lovely - is the Golden Tarot, made up of images from the Christian Renaissance. Finally, I would say that quite a few decks are neutral as far as religion is concerned - neither pagan, Christian nor anything else. I always regarded the RWS that way, though it is not neutral from an esoteric point of view. The Mythic deck uses Greek myths, as myths (not as religion), as does the Ancient Egyptian deck. The Rohrig deck is modern secular and very beautiful. The Tarot of Prague is one of my favourite and completely neutral religiously -it is based on the art of the city of Prague. I know there are many who disregard the pagan content of the DruidCraft - it is very lightly done and I would not say it offends non-pagans. Hope you friend finds a shoe to fit his foot! Ps- not Catholic but several of my tarot reading friends here are. They all read with the Tarot of Marseille.

HudsonGray	31 May 2005
Tarot was developed way after the Old Testament was written, but if it's a problem of 'divination' per se, maybe remind him that the former Pope was photographed in his office last year and had a tarot book on his desk, among the books piled there. If the pope is ok with it, he doesn't need to worry.

blashamma	31 May 2005
Of course, I do know the importance of knwoing many things and learning what other religions believe and hold acceptable. In fact, I have two versions of the Bible, and the Quran. Maybe the Pope was doing the same. Also, I showed my friend some images of Christian-based Tarot decks, and I also told him that eventhough they exist, it doesn't make them right. I will tell him about the books you, Helvetica, suggested. Thank You. Sorry about that! I question everything! I would like some more imput. I'd really like personal imput as well!

mingbop	31 May 2005
Well pet, I am (ex!)catholic (irish mother!) and there is no possible harm you can do with a deck of cards....is there now ? It all depends on the intent--if you read in order to put somebody's mind at ease or advise them, then its a good thing. If you read in order to appear dramatic and scare the beejasus out of somebody , then its a bad thing. Either way, its YOU who are the force behind it , not a pile of wee bits of cardboard....so you can't blame the tarot!! lol

jmd	31 May 2005
Neither Deutoronomy nor Leviticus claim that a Christian may not engage in divination. In the case of Deutoronomy, the rule is specifically applicable to the Levites (not even to the Israelites in general), and that, only as they enter the promised land. The thread 'Christianity and the Tarot' has quite a number of quotes from the Bible that, at first reading, appear to be proscriptions for divination or Tarot - and yet, on closer study, are either not at all, or at most forbid the same for members of a specific tribe of Israel or with specific tasks (for example, priestly). Another thread of interest may be Christian / Catholic Tarot Reader, in which some of the considerations raised are also discussed. Let's, however, also take that other reference - Leviticus 19:26 (and for that matter, have a look at 20:27!), in which is said:[indent]you will not practice divination or magic[/indent] to whom does Yahweh speak? the opening is very clear: it is to be said to the community of Israelites at the time. Whether this becomes an enduring commandment to the community of Israelites is clearly debateable, but one aspect is certain, it was not said to Moses to be said to the community outside of the Israelites themselves. If one is an Israelite, then, perhaps one is yet bound against divination in general - and I say 'perhaps' as much more has to be taken into consideration, which, if it is, will show the commandment itself to be applicable to that community at that time, with the senses that 'divination' and 'magic' (or, rather, what has been translated as such in modern English) to be understood in the manner in which these were used at that time amongst non-Israelites. This is not, however, a proscription for a non-Israelite Catholic.

light2000	31 May 2005
hi iám a chatolic. honestly i dont have a religion but i was born at Portugal and here everyone is chatolic, 3 months after you born you are baptism. si it was my case. but i dont go to the masses i only go to the church when nobody are ther. i dont go talk about the holy bible but there are lots of contradictions at chatolica church. for me is a good signal it means that they are humans. is true that the bible talks about divination and tarot like a bad thing. is true what your friend say. But there are a lot of Saints at hte chatolic religion that was sorcerer you knew? one of the most famous is São Cipriano he also did witchcraft (black and white)and his book are one of the most buy at all world at this subject. and there was São Tiago one of the followers of Jesus. when Jesus died he went to norht of Spain. all the chatedral have a lot of crystals and simbolism even a fat eye on the top of the celling!! ( fat eye is for protection of bad-looked) if you go there you will find everything the streets have a lot of tarot readers, the shops only sells esoteric objects is amazing. And is one of the places more importants of the chatolic religion. And if i start to talk about Brazil i dont shut up, all in the Brasil is mix whith esoteric even chatolic churchs have esoteric figures inside. And Brazil is the biggest chatolic country of the world.

HearthCricket	31 May 2005
Hi-I am officially Catholic, and though somewhat lapsed I am still a believer and a Christian. But, I also enjoy tarot and know lots of Catholics who go for readings, and others who would think it was some sort of evil thing. I try not to even go there. I have been connecting with tarot since I was 12, which is 30 years ago. My parents gave me my first deck...on Christmas, of all times! At the time we were all Anglican. Anyhow, I am a firm believer in tarot, or I would not even be on these boards, and I never find it to diminish or destroy my Christian faith. I find it as a helpful tool for anyone on a journey, and hope it also helps me to keep an open mind on all faiths and beliefs, and appreciate and respect others. My guess is that it is a 50/50 thing. Some Catholics have no problem with it and even go for readings, or collect themselves. Others may have a problem with it, or think it is just plain nonsense. As for me, I connect with it, have way too much fun with it, and am a tarot-holic in the making, so I have no plans to give it up! That would be like tossing away a gift that God gave me, in my opinion.

blashamma	31 May 2005
Thank you all so much! I'll tell my friend about what you said here. He told me he was also going to ask his priest his opinion on the matter. I'll let you know what comes from that. "In the case of Deutoronomy, the rule is specifically applicable to the Levites" I thought so, after reading over it a couple of times. But I didn't want to say anything to him because it's not my religion, so I figured he'd know what the passage meant better than I would, and I didn't want to say something to contradict what he said because he was being nice and I didn't want to offend him. Thank you also for the links of other threads jmd! "Either way, its YOU who are the force behind it , not a pile of wee bits of cardboard....so you can't blame the tarot!!" This is true too! I can't believe I didn't even think of it! My mind was going into one direction, and this is in the other. That sounds like something I would have said too! Thanks mingbop! Thank you everyone!

autumn star	31 May 2005
I am happy that this thread came up. I have been having inner conflicts about being a Christian and practicing tarot. My mother used to practice tarot, but gave it up, and brought be up to believe that it was a really bad thing and that only bad could come of using the cards. I am a Christian - I have been baptised twice - as an Anglican and a Catholic, I attended Catholic schools my whole life. Lately, I have been wondering if I should stop doing tarot because it is looked down upon by the church. So thanks for the thread, it has given me some new ideas on tarot and Christianity :)

Emeraldgirl	31 May 2005
I was raised a Catholic and although I don't go to church any more or follow the faith strictly speaking. I really enjoy the stories of the saints and I have the Tarot of the Saints which may be of benefit to your friend. here's the link to the AT info on this deck http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/tarot-of-the-saints/

light2000	31 May 2005
I really enjoy the stories of the saints and I have the Tarot of the Saints which may be of benefit to your friend. Esmeraldgirl I dont have the Tarot of the Saints, but i have a lot of interess at the stories of the Saints, too. I read a lot about their life and miracles, of course that there are ones whith no proves,but... Of course that the church do things that we dont belive but i like to think that all the stories are true. Some of that stories are full of sad things and i think that is the worst of them. But i doubt a litle because the majoraty of the Saints are Italian what is suspicios. All country in Europe have a lot of Saints and at South America. But and the another countrys that the chatolic religion isnt the majoraty? Why Africa have so few Saints? And about Asia? And the USA such a big country and have so few Saits? I have my thoughts and i think that you know what i´m thinking. Even Santo Antonio (maybe at english SaintTony ????)that is a known Saint Italy try to say that he is italian. He was borned here in Portugal, Lisbon, He study here and starts his spiritual life here, ok, he went to italy, but this makes him Italian? So here we call him Saint Tony of Lisbon at Italy hr is Saint tony of Padua. They have Saint Marie Gorreti, the Holy lady of Graces, Saint Agnes, and so on. I´m not trying to say that here he dont have a lot of Saint, because if i do that i´m lieng. We have a lot of Saints, and we Have Fátima so no questions about it. There are so few black Saints. I really dont understand, i think that a Saint do miracles but must of all lives to help others. The thing about this matter that shoks me more is the pope that was responsable for the inquision turned Saint. So manny deads on his backs and he is Saint? I dont know ,the world is a strange place. But i´m not really a chatolic and i like to see the best things of all religions and for me at this one the best thing is the Saints.

Lady Maria	01 Jun 2005
From a previous post:" Lately, I have been wondering if I should stop doing tarot because it is looked down upon by the church." I was raised in a very religious family, and though not Catholic, I understand the "shoulds" and "thou shalts" that can cause shame and guilt and worst of all, fear, into your very being, if you are doing something that could be classified as sinning. I was racked with guilt at the age of 12 when I finally admitted to myself that yes, I am drawn to Pagan ways, and I truly believed I was forever forsaken. Scince then I have come to realize that true spirituality and union with God, if that's what you call it, has nothing to do with what others say is right, because every human knows within them what is right and wrong- FOR THEMSELVES. The only thing that matters, in my view, is Love, and that we act from that place in our HEARTS, (instead of trying to figure it out in our heads) as much as we can. I think your intention is more important than the tools you use. Love & Light, Maria

NightWing	01 Jun 2005
In Response to the Thread-Starter: I know for a fact that many Catholics use tarot cards, for meditation, readings, and otherwise. There is at least one Catholic priest who is a member here. A man who was thought of as the greatest Catholic theologian of the 20th century wrote the forward to Tomberg's book on tarot, thus giving it his approval...and unofficially that of the Catholic Church. That is why Pope John Paul II had it on his desk in his private office. I'm sure the Pope read it, and not as an "opposition" book. I can find no official condemnation of tarot by the Roman Catholic Church. Only one or two bishops in the 13th century or so, that were concerned about gambling, issued pastoral letters opposing card playing in that particular time and place. If Catholics were using tarot cards to "conjure up demons" or something, I could see the higher church officials getting a bit concerned. Otherwise, they have larger issues to deal with. }) The highest teaching authority of the Roman Catholic Church (the Magisterium) has not forbidden Tarot to Catholics, therefore it is permitted. Catholics need not have a crisis of conscience over tarot.

autumn star	01 Jun 2005
Thanks Lady Maria :) You are right, it's not about what others think. The topic has been on my mind a bit lately. NightWing - that's really interesting - it makes me feel alot less not so much guilt but second guessing about tarot. I like the idea of a saints tarot, I should checkit out - it sounds like something I would like :) It's a good idea on how to make Christianity and tarot mix together.

Nevada	01 Jun 2005
John Edward is a Catholic, and he uses Tarot in his work. Nevada

blashamma	01 Jun 2005
Who's John Edward? Nightwing, thanks for all of the info!

Dark Inquisitor	01 Jun 2005
John Edwards is a famous psychic who had his own tv show. No one can stop you from using tarot , whatever religion you are or are not. I guess you have to decide which interpretations of scriptures and theology you are going to believe and follow. They seem to mostly contradict depending on the biases and education of who is doing the interpreting . But still, I wish somebody would take their decks to church or a Christian social event and tell me what happens. Why settle for just hanging out here among us accepting folks, when it might be so exciting to go forth and dispel ignorance and fear among the ones who need it most? }) :D

Nevada	01 Jun 2005
Sorry, blashamma. I should've realized that can be a very common appearing name. Dark Inquisitor you have a point. Maybe we'll have to break out the decks the next time religious canvassers ring the doorbell. :D Nevada

Dark Inquisitor	02 Jun 2005
Nevada wrote: Dark Inquisitor you have a point. Maybe we'll have to break out the decks the next time religious canvassers ring the doorbell. :D Yeah !!!!! FREE THE TAROT !!

blashamma	02 Jun 2005
This does remind me of a funny story. Dowm the street from me, there is this annoying girl who keep on coming over to my house (she has a major crush on me eventhough I'm about ten years older than she is). Well anyway, it just so happens that she goes to the same church as my friend. I don't know how she found out I was his friend, but she talks to him and finds out stuff about me. She came over one day, and says, "So, I hear you do Devil cards." I say, "Devil cards, I have NO idea what Devil cards are. Whatever do you mean?" Needless to say, it ended up me telling her I use Tarot cards, of course after a big explanation about many things, but I'm happy because I haven't seen her or heard from her since! So that was funny. Oh, and the people at my friend's church (where I have been a few times since he invited me) are tired of me and my Tarot cards! ha ha ha! I'm going to Hell. Oh well, it'll be fun!

tao51	02 Jun 2005
there are many churches in the Christian way which condemns the use of divination tools. I am a Catholic and I have never felt in animosity by people of my faith. I have had a Baptist tell me that I was using the tools of the devil by reading Tarot. Yet, I have read for many people of many different faiths and religions. I think the objections are personal and not always the opinion of the religious bodies as a whole.

Bean Feasa	03 Jun 2005
I was raised Catholic and went to a convent school, so got all the indoctrination there was going. I, ahem, shall we say, didn't find it a helpful religion and got the hell out of there as soon as I could. Tarot was never mentioned at school, that I can recall, but I do remember one of the nuns telling us they'd been told never to read their horoscopes in papers and magazines. Any kind of knowledge of the future is seen to be God's preserve, and not for us to know. I think there's a big difference between what Catholics do on a day-to-day basis and what is actually considered correct procedure by the Church. A lot of things are observed more in the breach than anything else. For example the pill and barrier methods of contraception are forbidden, but you don't see women having ten children anymore so presumably people are just ignoring the Church's dictates on certain issues and getting on with their lives. I suspect Tarot may well fall into this category ;)

mingbop	03 Jun 2005
hallo ireland ! long time no hear ! that's a very sensible irish approach and I'm impressed .lol ! Mary.

NightWing	03 Jun 2005
Dark Inquisitor's comment about taking our tarot cards to Church social events got me thinking. You know, virtually every church group has various events during the year, such as Teas, Bake Sales, Rummage Sales, Dinners, Festival Days, "Bazaars", and so on. Many of these are run as fund raisers for that particular church community, or a "pet" cause, like a Soup Kitchen for the indigent. It wouldn't work with every church group, but I'd bet some could be persuaded that a charity "tarot read" could help the cause. Brief readings done for a $10.00 donation, say at a church afternoon tea & bake sale, might go a long way toward creating good will and lessening peoples' fears. Other non-Christian faith communities sponsor similar events, and might also be approached. I'd be VERY interested to know if anyone has had some experience of doing this (?)

Fudugazi	03 Jun 2005
Bean Feasa wrote: I think there's a big difference between what Catholics do on a day-to-day basis and what is actually considered correct procedure by the Church. A lot of things are observed more in the breach than anything else. For example the pill and barrier methods of contraception are forbidden, but you don't see women having ten children anymore so presumably people are just ignoring the Church's dictates on certain issues and getting on with their lives. I suspect Tarot may well fall into this category ;) Either that, or Irish women have very boring lives ;) (which I don't for a second believe) And to come back to DI's and Nevada's discussion - I have this vision of my taking out my Thoth next time the Jehova's Witnesses come a-calling, and saying - "you don't mind if I check with my Satanic Tarot if it's OK to talk to you, do you?" - with a stop-watch by my side to see how fast they leave my doorstep ;)

Lady Maria	03 Jun 2005
Helvetica wrote: I have this vision of my taking out my Thoth next time the Jehova's Witnesses come a-calling, and saying - "you don't mind if I check with my Satanic Tarot if it's OK to talk to you, do you?" - with a stop-watch by my side to see how fast they leave my doorstep ;) I love that idea, Helvetica! I'm going to use that next time! Cheers, Maria

Dark Inquisitor	04 Jun 2005
blashamma wrote: She came over one day, and says, "So, I hear you do Devil cards."I say, "Devil cards, I have NO idea what Devil cards are. Whatever do you mean?" Needless to say, it ended up me telling her I use Tarot cards, of course after a big explanation about many things, but I'm happy because I haven't seen her or heard from her since! The tarot helped me get rid of a pesty person too . You know how you meet people , befriend them, and then one day you realize they are irritating , self -centered, and now you are just putting up with them because you don't want to go through the giant scene of getting rid of them? I sent her a tarot deck for her birthday . I knew she was super-Catholic. Never heard a peep from her again. Triumph !! That deck of Devil Cards though- that could be a big seller.

Fulgour	04 Jun 2005
When I was a child it was practiced that at six years we had reached "the age of reason" and thus could be judged as adults for our sins. I grew up with The Catholic Illustrated Bible at hand, and bless me! some of those pictures were gruesome.

blashamma	04 Jun 2005
I ahte the idea of when the Jehovah's witnesses come by, saying you will use Satan cards! It it negative tarot propaganda! Tarot is already looked upon badly enough, we don't need to be making it worse! In my example, I denied that they were accociated with the Devil (besides the devil card) and I spent a while teaching the girl about what tarot cards were in an attempt to destroy her preconcieved negativity! Please do not spread negative tarot propaganda!

Asenath	04 Jun 2005
blashamma wrote: I ahte the idea of when the Jehovah's witnesses come by, saying you will use Satan cards! It it negative tarot propaganda! Tarot is already looked upon badly enough, we don't need to be making it worse! In my example, I denied that they were accociated with the Devil (besides the devil card) and I spent a while teaching the girl about what tarot cards were in an attempt to destroy her preconcieved negativity! Please do not spread negative tarot propaganda! I guess your method of "introducing" them to your cards would dictate whether it was propaganda and all. I was thinking of maybe opening the door and letting them know that I was "busy" (cards in hand of course) to see how they would react or if they got the message. I remember my aunt saying once that if you ask them to pray (with you leading the prayer of course) that would get rid of them, too. Even though people should be warned about the dangers of prayer ("be careful what you wish for"), I've yet to see any religious person run around scorning others for praying. People will react to the cards however they want to and sometimes the reaction appears religious, when the reaction is really based on a cultural or social influence.

mingbop	04 Jun 2005
this is OT but relevant. My friend who is a good medium amd psychic, once told me when she was young had an eye for this boy, who was a jehovah's witness. So she went to their church as this was the only way she could get close to him (this was in texas). They went around the doors preaching, and she went with them to be near him. One day a woman answered the door, and my friend said she saw a black mist swirling around her and a black gateway around the door...nobody else noticed anything. They offered leaflets and the woman said wait I need to ask if I'm allowed these. She went back into the house, into the black mist, and called around a door to someone--"may I take their books"? ...my friend felt this overpowering sense of evil and dirt and sickness and had to get away from there. --this was 30 years ago ...- she is sure that house was involved in devil worship.She never went round doors again, either-she dumped him !

EricTheHermit	04 Jun 2005
Hi, Folks - As some of you may already know, I am an ex-Catholic. My mom had me baptized (Dad was non-religious) and I went through the whole Catholic shebang - first communion, confirmation, altar boy, etc, but I had an interest in the occult since I was little. My mother was into astrology and the Ouija board, though she worried about violating Church doctrine. In the Catholic Church, you don't do bible study - that's more of a Protestant thing. The Catholic Church has its own book, the Catechism, which is a 700+ page companion to the bible that contains all the Church's laws and doctrines. Divination, either by tarot cards or other means, is against Catholic law. The Catechism points to the bible in establishing the sinfulness of divination. As another poster noted, in one book of the bible, divination is described as sinful, but in another, it says you can use divination as a form of self-defense. The book of Leviticus, which contains the laws of Moses, also forbids you from seeing your female relatives naked (but naked men are okay, LOL) and demands that you be put to death if you're gay. Oh, and as part of your Sunday observations, you have to sacrifice a goat and a ram to God, plus other animals, if you've sinned. Even as a small child, I couldn't take the bible seriously. It made no sense to me. But like I said, bible study was more of a Protestant thing. I left the Church in disgust when I was in college - that was about 15 years ago. When I was 11 or 12, I read a book on Wicca and fell in love with that religion. I even built a makeshift altar in my bedroom, complete with a butter knife for an athame. But my mom said NO WAY. :D Since I left the Catholic Church, I found myself becoming a "born again pagan." :) But I digress... I was still a practicing Catholic when I first got into tarot. I've known Catholics, both conservative and liberal, who were into things like tarot and Ouija and believed they weren't sinning because they prayed before using them, asking God to help them find the answers they seek and to keep away negativity. (Wiccans invoke the Goddess and God before doing divination) The Church will never admit it, but as a former Catholic, I can practically guarantee you that most practicing Catholics take their Catechism - Church lawbook - with a grain of salt. There are more Catholic tarot readers than you could imagine - much more. My late grandmother (Mom's mother) was very a devout Catholic as well as a Ouija user and follower of astrology. When my mother and her sisters were little girls, Grandma would always tell them, "We don't go to Church for the priest or the pope. We go there to be with God." That was in the 1930s. Now, after Catholic doctrine has become so intolerant and after the sexual abuse scandals exposed the total corruption of the Catholic Church hierarchy, it's a safe bet that most practicing Catholics aren't going to be too concerned about the sinfulness of tarot cards. - Eric

mingbop	04 Jun 2005
Hi Eric, that was a very good post... I think religion is the biggest problem this world faces today.... and if everybody were to use the brains , compassion. tolerance & reason that god (lol) gave them and think for themselves, instead of reading from a 2000 year old book, then things would be a whole lot better .

blashamma	04 Jun 2005
Eric, that was an awesome post! That was the kind of post I was looking for all along. Thank You! I need to show my friend this post. He read the thread earlier, and he seemed to have taken it lightly. He also said that he told me that he only wanted to make tarot cards, not use them. I thought if this were true why would he have brought the whole thing up about divination being wrong? Oh well. I didn't know abuot the Catechism. I've heard about it before, and I thought it was an event. I'd have never thought it was a book!

Nevada	04 Jun 2005
blashamma wrote: I ahte the idea of when the Jehovah's witnesses come by, saying you will use Satan cards! It it negative tarot propaganda! Tarot is already looked upon badly enough, we don't need to be making it worse! In my example, I denied that they were accociated with the Devil (besides the devil card) and I spent a while teaching the girl about what tarot cards were in an attempt to destroy her preconcieved negativity! Please do not spread negative tarot propaganda! blashamma, I hope you knew I was joking. I usually just say no thanks and hope they leave me alone. Besides I would never refer to the Tarot as devil cards, myself. I agree that would be simply aiding their already negative connotation in certain people's eyes. Nevada

blashamma	04 Jun 2005
I figured you were joking. I felt what I said needed to be said. I've known many people do similar things, and it really makes me angry that they'd do something like that. I figured I'd post in response to it, just to make sure.

EricTheHermit	05 Jun 2005
Hi, blashamma - Glad to be of help. You know, if you read the Gnostic Gospels, (which were deleted from the original bible and declared heresy by the Catholic Church) you can see the huge difference between Jesus the man and Jesus the myth, who was invented by early Catholic clerics in collaberation with the Roman emperor Constantine. Both parties made a pact that resulted in Christianity becoming the official religion of the Roman empire. The real Jesus was opposed to organized religion in all its forms because clerics are so easily corrupted. He never claimed to be the biological son of God, either. There was no Virgin Mary in the bible or immaculate conception story until about 400 A.D. It was added to the New Testament to discourage worship of the old Semitic Goddess as the mother of Jesus. The Church does not now, nor ever knew the actual day and month of Jesus' birth, crucifixion, and resurrection. Constantine decided to have Christmas celebrated around the time of the Winter Solstice because that was the holiest time of the year on the pagan calendar. Christmas is actually the pagan Yule holiday with Jesus' name attached. At Yule, pagans celebrate the mother Goddess giving birth to the Child of Promise - the father Sun God reborn. To honor the newborn Holly King, pagans decorated their homes with holly, mistletoe, and trees. They burned a Yule log in His honor and exchanged gifts of goodwill called yuletidings. On the eve of Yule, the Holly King is said to ride across the stars on an astral sleigh guided by eight deer, (the deer is the father God's familiar animal. In addition to being the Sun God, giver of the Goddess's light, he also appears to us as the Horned God of the forest: half-man, and half-deer) bestowing his blessings. He keeps watch over the Earth while the Goddess goes off to rest and recover from birth. Easter, named after the old Semitic goddess Astarte, known to the Saxons as Eostre, is really the pagan holiday Ostara with Jesus' name attached. Ostara (March 21st) celebrates the return of the Goddess at the Spring Equinox, resulting in the return of warmth and the rebirth of nature. It also celebrates the maiden aspect of the Goddess and Her courtship of the Horned God. The Catholic Church used to celebrate Easter on May 1st, but that was changed because May 1st is also Beltaine, which is the pagan fertility holiday celebrating the sexual union of the Goddess and God that results in the conception of the Child of Promise. My favorite of the Gnostic gospels is the Sophia Of Jesus, where Jesus tells the apostles a polytheistic creation story that has practically nothing to do with Genesis. In this story, the main Father God creates the universe, (which has 8 levels called Assemblies) the heavens, the stars, and the other gods and goddesses. He has two children, Adam and Sophia, to whom he entrusts the completion of his creation plan. Assisting Adam and Sophia is their daughter - the goddess Zoe - and several other gods and goddesses called Aeons. One of these Aeons is the goddess Aphrodite. Another Aeon is our creator, a cocky god who thought he was the best creator among them. After making the Earth, he decides to make Man in his image. He boasts to Sophia that this man will be as perfect as the gods. He calls the man Adam, after the Father God's first begotten son. After Sophia chides him for forgetting to make a mate for Adam, the Aeon makes Eve. Still boasting of his creation prowess, the Aeon places a tree in his garden - a tree whose fruits contain his knowledge. He forbids Adam and Eve from eating the fruits and boasts to Sophia that they will obey him without question. Sophia sends a serpent to tempt Eve (serpents were not considered evil; they were used by the gods as divine testers of will and wisdom) to eat the fruits. She does, and tempts Adam to as well. The Aeon can't believe he was disobeyed and that Adam and Eve now have the knowledge which makes them his equal. But he repents and Sophia assigns him other duties. This, according to Jesus, is why mankind is imperfect and prone to sin - we were created by an imperfect and sinful god. Jesus also believed that knowledge is power, and people must seek it out if they are to progress spiritually. This is in direct contradiction to the orthodox hierarchal structure of organized religion, which requires an ignorant and obedient congregation in order to prosper. Also in the Gnostic gospels, Peter, the founder of Catholicism, proclaims to Jesus his hatred of women, especially Jesus' wife Mary Magdalene, by saying "Make her go away, for women are not fit to live." Jesus rebukes Peter, declaring her and all women the equal of men. Peter a misogynist? Now, there's a surprise. :) - Eric

Lady Maria	05 Jun 2005
Nevada wrote: blashamma, I hope you knew I was joking. I usually just say no thanks and hope they leave me alone. Besides I would never refer to the Tarot as devil cards, myself. I agree that would be simply aiding their already negative connotation in certain people's eyes. Nevada I thought it was a funny joke as well- and of course I wouldn't actually call them 'Satan cards' . I think it can difficult to joke on the computer because you can't tell a person's tone. Anyway, I agree with you blashamma, that it's important to creat a possitive additude about the cards. I still think it's a funny thought though! Cheers, Maria

autumn star	05 Jun 2005
Thanks for sharing that EricTheHermit - it reminded me of the Da Vinici code :) I had already read about the Winter Solstice & Ostara, it is really interesting. Can I just ask what book you read about the Gnostic Gospels in? I'm interested in reading it myself :)

NightWing	05 Jun 2005
EricTheHermit: Your recent two lengthy posts here remind me as well of the "DaVinci Code"; too much so. You are aware that that book is a novel, right? The writer took several interesting possibilities, and wove a very complex and interesting story around them, but it IS fiction, not fact. And admirers of the book have since thoroughly "debunked" it, pointing out a great many historical inaccuracies or pure fabrications, which is what fiction is all about. But that is not what serious discussions about the religious beliefs of oneself or others is about. The probability of needless offense is too great. Why would those of us into tarot want to be seen as intolerant, or worse? I want to take issue with one part of your most recent post, the last paragraph, I believe, where you quote from a Gnostic gospel. Eric; it strikes me as completely illogical for you to blame the Catholic Church for "removing" the Gnostic writings from the Bible, and at the same time, blame it for an attitude based on a quote (you say)from that same Gnostic gospel. I mean, just why do you think it was removed in the first place? If I'm missing something here, please clarify it for me. I'm sure the Catholic Church is responsible for many things, but not this. Also, having thoroughly searched for an official Roman Catholic Church condemnation of tarot specifically, and finding none, I'm wondering what your sources are. Even if there were such a thing, since you have said you are not a believing Catholic, how would it affect you?

blashamma	06 Jun 2005
Okay, eventhough I am finding this whole thing very interesting, the point of my thread was to see if there were Catholic Tarot readers, and what they thought about Tarot. I think you all have done that. Now, we are getting a little off the subject; I was not out to disprove an entire religion. I will not be that blame for the starting of people arguing or starting trouble. Please stick to what I set forth to know when I started this thread. If you do not wish to do that, start your own thread. Thank You.

Fudugazi	06 Jun 2005
EricTheHermit wrote: if you read the Gnostic Gospels, (which were deleted from the original bible and declared heresy by the Catholic Church) you can see the huge difference between Jesus the man and Jesus the myth, who was invented by early Catholic clerics in collaberation with the Roman emperor Constantine. Both parties made a pact that resulted in Christianity becoming the official religion of the Roman empire. I have read the gnostic gospels. I am surprised to see, however, that you should reject the official gospel with such scorn for bearing an agenda, while accepting the gnostic gospels apparently without a flutter of questioning. Don't you think they also had an agenda? I fail to see what any of this might do to help someone in conciling Catholicism and Tarot, since the question is not whether Catholicism is right or wrong, but whether tarot is right or wrong for Catholics - and the view from Catholic readers. Given that some prominent Catholics are tarot authors and the Pope seemed to have read - and by inference approved - these books, I think that ought to reassure Catholics.

EricTheHermit	06 Jun 2005
NightWing - I haven't read The Da Vinci Code - yet. The novel is fiction, but it was inspired by real historical research into the dubious history and origins of Christianity. I have seen an excellent documentary called The Da Vinci Code Decoded, which features interviews with historians and scholars whose controversial research inspired Dan Brown to write his novel. One of these interviewees is James M. Robinson, author of the recent book The Nag Hammadi Library, which is regarded as the best translation of the Gnostic Gospel texts. These texts were discovered in 1945 after being buried in the Egyptian desert for over 1,000 years. The Gnostics were an Egyptian society of scholars and magicians to whom Jesus had belonged. Realizing that these texts were going to be destroyed as heretical, the Gnostics copied them in their own language, Coptic, and kept them hidden. Robinson's interview in the documentary was very impressive. He actually learned to read and write the Coptic language so he could make the most accurate translation possible. Robinison describes in detail how organized Christianity - Catholicism - was designed as a control system that Constantine could use to keep the Roman riff-raff in line and expand his empire. I encourage you to read James M. Robinson's Nag Hammadi Library translation of the Gnostic Gospels. If you can't get a hold of that book, you can Google Gnostic gospels and you'll find the texts freely available on the web. There are several different translations out there. You will find Peter's misogynistic quote in the texts. I think it completely logical that the Church would want to delete texts where its founder Peter is shown to be a nasty misogynist and is rebuked for it by Jesus. And I really think that the Church would not want people to read Jesus' condemnation of organized religion in the Gnostic gospel of Thomas where he says that the true kingdom of God lies within your heart, not within buildings of stone and wood. Divination is prohibited by Catholic law in the Catechism book - at least, it was when I read the book many years ago. When we were practicing Catholics, my mother and I both heard priests warning against things like Ouija boards and tarot cards in their sermons. The Church's tarot and other occult prohibitions didn't affect me at all, because even as a child, I believed I should have the right to investigate such things and decide for myself whether they are good or bad. - Eric

Fudugazi	06 Jun 2005
The Church has no tarot prohibition.

EricTheHermit	06 Jun 2005
Sorry, but you're WRONG. Here's what the Catholic Catechism has to say about divination: 2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility. 2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear the we owe to God alone. 2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others-even if this were for the sake of restoring their health-are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity. - Eric

HearthCricket	06 Jun 2005
Here is the stance on Divination, according to the present Catechism of the Catholic Church. p.513-2116: "All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honour, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone." It goes on to say spiritism, magic, sorcery are all condemned by the church. While it does not mention the exact word of Tarot, that is also part of the bulk of divination they are referring to. This being said, I am Catholic and read Tarot cards. A great deal of Catholics that I know read Tarot, or go to readings, as well as get involved with yoga, meditation, astrology, numerology. (Interesting fact is that the Magi, the so-called Three Kings that visited the Christ Child, strongly believed in the workings of the stars, and how a great sign in the sky had its counterpart on earth, thus the reason they followed the star.) One can also remember that the Church condemns birth control, active homosexuality, abortion and a ton of other things, which are usually ignored, unless you live in a third world country and don't think for yourself, because you are not educated and are kept down. The Catholic Church sees everything in black and white. Too bad. Because the world is full of shades of grey. So, all this being said, this Catholic girl (hah!) is going to order her Baroque Bohemian Cats deck, now, and may just pick up the Druidcraft, this evening!

Statickitten	06 Jun 2005
I am Catholic, and I use tarot cards. However, I know that it is against my religion to do so, but I do it anyway. All forms of divination are forbidden by the Catholic church. No ifs ands or buts about it, that is the church law. -Static

Kahlie	06 Jun 2005
As a Catholic, I see a difference between the Church as a constitution, and the teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ in my opinion was one of the most progressive people out there. And many of his teachings have been corrupted over time,due to manipulations or misinterpretations. The Catholic Church in my opinion does some very wrong things. They do not punish the guilty in the ranks (incest-scandals) and they have the philosphy that priests have more authority then people themselves. I do not have to follow the Catholic Church as a constitution to be a Catholic. I can follow the teachings, and have the love of God in my heart. That is what is most important to me. God is everywhere. He always tries to talk to me. By sending people into my life, by showing me signs, by giving me dreams, by being always around me. I talk back. I pray a true prayer, a thank you for the things in my life. I listen. I embrace his guidance. If God can talk to us though anything, I believe this includes Tarot Cards. I do not use them to see the future. Why would I? The future will come anyway, and I am always prepared to handle it. I use them to better myself, to give myself advice on difficult situations. I use them to help other people. I use them for my connection to the Divine -> God. So yes, I see myself as a Catholic. I see myself as religious. I do not see myself as sinning against my religion when trying to help others and myself. Kahlie

tao51	06 Jun 2005
The Catholic Church as well as OTHER Christian Curches hold various opinions about all sorts of social, emotional, spiritual, and sexual matters. To single the Catholic Church as the sole purveyor of these attitudes or opinions is totally eroneous. I am a Catholic who had the Bible as part of daily teachings in the parochial school. We were taught about faith, love, and respect for other people and their faith. I do read the Tarot--for over 30 years. I have read for people from many different churches and beliefs. I have been told that it was against someone's faith but he was still curious. To me a war of words misses spirituality. IMHO If I threw away all the sacred books in existence--spirituality would still be there. Love would still be there. (Now, I am not suggesting to destroy or not to read these books. The point is to emphasize the spirit and commonalities.) Peace--Tao

Fudugazi	06 Jun 2005
Meditations on the Tarot is a Catholic-endorsed text. Tarot: Talisman or Taboo, is a Catholic text by a monk who uses the Tarot. The reason so many pagan tarots have sprung up is because neo-pagans are uncomfortable with the obvious Christian imagery of some of the Tarot Majors. Eric, I respect your rejection of your former church and your new path, but I think your repulsion has coloured your judgement on this particular issue.

EricTheHermit	06 Jun 2005
Helvetica - Perhaps my personal rejection of Catholicism has made me a bit biased, but if you read my post with the article on divination taken directly from the Catholic Catechism, which is published by the Vatican, you can clearly see that the use of tarot cards, which is a form of divination, is expressly prohibited by the Catholic Church. The Church may not make as big a fuss over divination as it does abortion, but divination is prohibited by Church law as written in the Catechism and that's a FACT. I also noted in my first post that not all Catholics (including priests and other clergymen) agree with this prohibition (nor do all Catholics agree with the Church's positions on other issues, such as abortion, birth control, and homosexuality) and that there are more practicing Catholics who read the tarot than you might think. - Eric

Fudugazi	06 Jun 2005
Ah, so once again there appears to be much contradiction in that great institution... (I have to say that although I am not Catholic I was educated in Catholic schools and had ample opportunity to observe the wheat and the chaff...I also have infinite respect for the ordinary Catholic priests and nuns I saw at work in Africa in the years I lived there, so different from the fundamentalist evangelicals). BTW, Eric, as a former insider, what is your reading of the Meditations on the Tarot, and its endorsement (despite its strong hermetic - not to say gnostic! - content) by the Catholic Church - no less than a bishop and the late Pope? I must say it is one of my favourite tarot books, though very dense and not to be read like a novel !!!

EricTheHermit	06 Jun 2005
I was genuinely surprised by the endorsements given to Meditations on the Tarot. Maybe they finally figured out that the tarot is less harmless than, say, Ouija boards and witchcraft - or abortion. But don't expect them to add an exception to the no divination rule in the Catechism. When John Paul II became pope in 1978, his first priority was to undo all the good that his more liberal predecessors did. Discontinuing the Latin Mass in the 1960s was considered a reactionary liberal move by conservative Christians, but it served its purpose by making Catholicism more accessible to those who had no desire to study Latin. But, bringing back the Latin Mass was of no concern to John Paul II. His work was to bring back hard line conservativism back to the Vatican, which is why now there is little difference between the Catholic Church and the most intolerant Evangelicals when it comes to issues like abortion and homosexuality. Even if a priest does not agree with these intolerant doctrines, he must parrot the party line to his congregation or face expulsion. He is not entitled to dissent or have his own opinions - at least, not in public. That was the mission of John Paul II. The idea was for the Vatican to exercise greater control over the minds and ministries of individual priests. Of course, when all those priests got caught molesting children, the Vatican was quick to say that it cannot be held responsible for the actions of individual priests, nor should they have to pay damages to the victims. But pay they did. The Boston Dioscece settled for $80 millon dollars. Just the other day, the Dioscece of Kentucky agreed to pay out a settlement of over $100 million dollars to victims of priests in that state. About 400 priests work in Kentucky. Of those, 37 were removed for sexual abuse. That's almost 1 in 10 priests there! Almost 10% of Kentucky's priests were sexual abusers - and that's just those who got caught! What about all the priests still actively abusing children who don't get caught because the victims are too frightened or embarassed to come forward and make the accusations? With the sexual abuse crisis, and the battles over abortion, birth control, and gay marriage taking up the Church's time, tarot and other forms of divination are not a priority any more. Still, the tarot is not used to hurt people, just to help them seek answers, so maybe the Church is finally recognizing its benefits. But even so, like I said, don't look for a tarot exception clause in the Catechism section on divination. - Eric

Fudugazi	06 Jun 2005
Thanks for your careful answer, Eric. I am curious - and feel concerned because of the number of Catholics - including a number of clergy - I am or have been close to. I've had occasion to observe what I would call hypocrisy, and what they call "accommodation" }) EricTheHermit wrote: With the sexual abuse crisis, and the battles over abortion, birth control, and gay marriage taking up the Church's time, tarot and other forms of divination are not a priority any more. Well, that's for the American Church, and possibly the European. In Latin America and Africa - by far the greater number of Catholics - the concerns are very different. The lead from Rome on AIDS in Africa is very distressing to most Catholics, but they don't really follow what Rome says (and I mean the clergy too, many of whom have "wives" and children in my experience). As for gay marriage and sexual scandals - it's just not an issue outside the North. Nor is abortion, at least in Africa, because all religions are against it - and Africans are very religious. I did meet some abortionist wise women in prison, and asked them about it. Even they say: what I do is wrong. So it'll be a long time before this becomes an issue. But witchcraft and divination, now! Well, do you know Latin America and Africa? If not, they are an education in divination and witchcraft! In Africa priests sell Catholic jujus, everyone consults divines and many go to witches, though "evil witches" (i.e.those that place curses) are feared and reviled (still, they have clients). In Haiti, Cuba and Brazil you have Catholics that are also Pagans (Santeria, Voodoo-Catholic synchretism and Macumba). A close friend of mine in Congo, and Italian priest who'd lived there for 30 years, told me an amazing story: he loved walking and he wanted to do a stations of the cross path on a hill near Kinshasa. But the hill was believed by the locals to be the home of evil spirits that are powerful. He said to them (taking his cue from Elijah, no doubt!) - God is more powerful than these spirits. But no go, no-one would accompany him (these are all Church-going Catholics, mind). So he said he go up there and spend the night on the top of the hill and see what happened. He did and the next morning came down. The locals then decided that indeed God was greater than these spirits and Father Italo was a great magician as well as a good priest. So everyone helped with the Stations of the Cross, and it became a pilgrimage. I walked it once. The spirits seemed quite friendly ;) That's what the Catholic Church looks like far from Rome or North America... EricTheHermit wrote: Still, the tarot is not used to hurt people, just to help them seek answers, so maybe the Church is finally recognizing its benefits. But even so, like I said, don't look for a tarot exception clause in the Catechism section on divination. Hehe, I wonder how they live with the great number of Catholics outside the North that do consult divines! And they are in a bit of a bind - it is sceptical secularism, not cathecism, that turned out the greatest attack on divination in Europe and North America...

tao51	06 Jun 2005
The original question seems to have spread to soap boxing against the Church for the child abuse incidents. This thread seems to be more of a bashing of the Catholic Church. There appears to be a few axes to grind. Peace--Tao

Dark Inquisitor	06 Jun 2005
I don't see any church bashing, unless one considers telling some unpleasant truth as bashing. There are all kinds of Catholics in various countries who have never left the spiritual roots of their ancestral traditions behind. It doesn't mean that is part of Catholicism or that it is endorsed in any way by the church. It just means the church can't stop it . And they would rather have you in their number any way they can get you, even if you might be considered flawed . But, in my opinion, no good comes from discussing religion. We go through the same arguments over & over , it usually ends up the same unless by some miracle, no one with a dissenting opinion replies . There needs to be some kind of sticky regarding Xianity & tarot reading and the fact that no firm conclusions can be drawn and it is up to one's conscience in the end. What else can you possibly say? Besides, if one has questions about Xianity, Catholicism, etc. , shouldn't one go to those places best equipped with definitive answers ? Like Xian forums that focus on it perhaps ?

Nevada	06 Jun 2005
EricTheHermit wrote: The Gnostics were an Egyptian society of scholars and magicians to whom Jesus had belonged. Realizing that these texts were going to be destroyed as heretical, the Gnostics copied them in their own language, Coptic, and kept them hidden. Not to put down your ideas or your source, but that is theory, not necessarily fact. Keep in mind, even historians can't agree on what exactly happened back then. Dan Brown drew a lot on gnostic teachings for his novel. I've read many of the same theories you mention, Eric, and I for one lean heavily toward gnosticism. But not even a Gnostic who believes this is going to state such things as though they are hard and fast facts. This is what gets people in trouble attempting to form communicative bridges between religious groups. A statement of faith, a statement of theory and a statement of fact are different things. Besides, as blashamma points out, this is a discussion of how to reconcile reading Tarot with the Catholic faith. So, not being Catholic, I'll jump off my soapbox. Nevada

jmd	07 Jun 2005
Let us perhaps discuss a little the Catholic Catechism and, specifically, articles 2115 and 2116, that begin, respectively, with:[indent]God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints [...] All forms of divination are to be rejected [...][/indent] Apart from the fact that these are perhaps inherently contradictory statements, neither of these, even if accepted at face value, speak against Tarot, but at most against one specific usage - that of divination. Even there, however, the word 'rejected', in the context of the explanation that follows (that characterises divination as ultimately 'a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings') shows the reasons for the rule. It does not in any many claim that it is in any way 'gravely contrary to the virtue of religion' (for which it makes a claim against magic in 2117). The rule against 'divination' within the Catholic Church, then, is to be taken as described, and according to its current view of the general psychological makeup of individuals, and not as a prohibition against divination per se, which would then limit the manner in which God may converse and reveal itself to prophets and saints - presumably understood according as the person to whom God has revealed itself. Further, and again, this is no prohibition on the usage of Tarot in general.

EricTheHermit	07 Jun 2005
jmd - I disagree with your interpretation. Webster's Dictionary defines divination as the following: 1 : the art or practice that seeks to foresee or foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge usually by the interpretation of omens or by the aid of supernatural powers 2 : unusual insight : intuitive perception The tarot certainly falls into the definition of divination, as it is consulted to divine possible future outcomes. The successful reader must possess a degree of insight - and intuitive perception - that could certainly be called unusual, as not all people can become successful readers. Even though the word "tarot" is not specifically mentioned, it seems pretty clear to me that it falls into the category of divination, ALL forms of which are to be rejected. Not only that, but when I was a practicing Catholic - when I was a kid, about 20-30 years ago, I heard more than one priest warning about divination in his sermons, specifically mentioning the tarot as well as astrology and occult tools like Ouija boards. One priest even talked about how he chided a woman for allowing her teenage daughter to purchase a tarot deck and pursue her interest in the cards. I can't speak for other countries. This is just what I've read and witnessed here in the U.S. Outside of Rome and the U.S., as Helvetica pointed out, the Church can be quite different. Not only that, but the Church in general doesn't really make as much of a fuss about the occult as they used to when I was a kid. Heck, when I first started going to church at age 7 in 1977, the priest (who was later replaced) used one of his sermons to discuss the need for more exorcisms to be performed in these modern times, as more people were being possessed then ever before! :) The Church may not back away from its hard-line positions on issues like abortion and gay marriage, but with so many Catholics becoming disenchanted with their religion and leaving it, (at least, they are here in the U.S.) the Church is not going to take a hard line on nickel-and-dime issues like divination. Technically though, occult explorations are still prohibited by Church law. - Eric

Moongold	07 Jun 2005
This is a fascinating discussion. Thanks all. The catechism states that “ ….all forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers” The reason given by some Church authorities for this is that these things contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone. I have been such a long time away from the Catholic Church but I do remember the importance the Church has always given to conscience. If you look for a definition of conscience it’s really hard to find a simple one in all the Catholic literature. I found this one on a Catholic website called The International Padre…… “Conscience is awareness of God’s call to be.Conscience is awareness of God’s call to know and to do good, that is, to love. Conscience is a practical judgment of the intellect”. I guess the question for Catholics ultimately is whether they feel that Tarot prevents them from knowing and doing good. Most people would probably have no difficulty in arguing that quite the opposite applies. The Church would still allow people to employ the practical judgement of the intellect in these matters, surely? Another consideration is that many people use Tarot for non-divinatory purposes. "Meditations on the Tarot" is really about mysticism and any one Catholic has always been free to explore this in his or her personal relationship with God. If we read the Bible and works from people such as Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross we can find meditations similar to those expressed in "Meditations on the Tarot". With good wishes.

NightWing	07 Jun 2005
At risk of being overly legalistic, I'd like to point out that the book called "The Catechism of the Catholic Church" is a teaching manual, and one of many versions of that. Any Catholic bookshop will have several different ones written by various authors and groups. In recent times, there have been the (so-called) "Dutch Catechism", the older "Baltimore Catechism", and John Hardon's "Catholic Catechism", as well as others. They reflect the concerns of their particular times, authors, or sponsoring group within the Catholic Church. Whatever claims each might make, they are changeable, regularly updated, and ARE NOT CHURCH LAW. Nor are the opinions, sometimes poorly informed, of an individual priest here or there, who airs his own prejudices, rather than basic doctrine. BTW: For Catholics, there is such a thing as "The Code of Canon Law". Quote from them all you want, but they are only changeable opinion. They do not have the force of a Papal condemnation by encyclical or stronger yet, an infallible decree. It cannot be required that a Catholic believer follow everything in every Catechism to the letter: there would be no Catholics at all then! Mature Catholics are taught that in the final analysis, a person must follow their conscience; that THAT is what they will be divinely judged upon, and not how many rules in a book they obeyed. When it comes to Tarot, if it concerned me personally, I wouldn't worry until the Pope himself, invoking the doctrine of "Infallibility", specifically banned tarot by name. It won't happen. Even the quotes given above focus on evil spirits, demons, and such. Those are naturally a Christian church concern. How many believing Catholics here use their tarot cards to summon demons? Tarot cards have many uses. Catholics should feel free to engage in (at least) most of them. The rest is ultimately up to personal conscience. Given the numbers of Catholics who use them, obviously personal decisions have been made.

Fudugazi	07 Jun 2005
NightWing wrote: How many believing Catholics here use their tarot cards to summon demons. How many Tarot readers do, outside the fevered imaginations of a few fundamentalists?

NightWing	07 Jun 2005
Thank-you, Helvetica. You amplified my point! I was being facetious with that line. -NightWing })

Fudugazi	07 Jun 2005
good one, NightWing! (mind you, I saw some demon conjuring in Africa - by people who went to Church on Sundays - not with Tarot, however. And more often - rather violent exorcism).

tao51	07 Jun 2005
You said it all!!! I could not agree more! (Now, where are those demon-summoning cards!!)

Moongold	07 Jun 2005
NightWing wrote: At risk of being overly legalistic, I'd like to point out that the book called "The Catechism of the Catholic Church" is a teaching manual, and one of many versions of that. Any Catholic bookshop will have several different ones written by various authors and groups. In recent times, there have been the (so-called) "Dutch Catechism", the older "Baltimore Catechism", and John Hardon's "Catholic Catechism", as well as others. They reflect the concerns of their particular times, authors, or sponsoring group within the Catholic Church. Whatever claims each might make, they are changeable, regularly updated, and ARE NOT CHURCH LAW. Thanks, Nightwing. That was the case when I was a child but on the Internet the catechism is presented as the sum total of what Catholics believe. It doesn't seem able to take in all the dimensions of Catholic faith or to be able to account for the individual's receptivity and personal understanding. But it is a long time since I was a practising Catholic.

Dark Inquisitor	08 Jun 2005
Ok- no more procrastinating . If you think the Catholic church must change, now is the time ! If you think they are misreading the bible, get in there and educate them !! Every Sunday is Take Your Deck to Church day ! Raise the issues , demand the solutions ! Get on with it !!

blashamma	08 Jun 2005
No! Not here Dark Inquisitor! If you want to start that, do so in your own post! That has nothing to do with my original post! I'm stopping this right now!

light2000	08 Jun 2005
Dark Inquisitor wrote: Ok- no more procrastinating . If you think the Catholic church must change, now is the time ! If you think they are misreading the bible, get in there and educate them !! Every Sunday is Take Your Deck to Church day ! Raise the issues , demand the solutions ! Get on with it !! Hey Dark Inquisitor, Chatholic church need a change, this one and all the others.There are any religion made by man that dont have mistakes and preconceptions? I dont know any. Even budhism, the hight personalities is only mens. You know that a woman cant be a "priest" at budhism? So every religion have nmistakes, because God is only one.Chatholic can misreading the bible like every religion that i know. I live at a chatolic country, but i´m not a practitioner!!But to say the true any religion seems to say all truth and all of them say a litle true.

light2000	08 Jun 2005
Oh, my!! I had read all the post here, where you talked about the bible and other things... What you had say is what inquisinion use to burn the wicths.And it was at the 16 centuary, long time ago. I think that religion needs to became more modern, like it happened whith all at the world. When the bible told that magic and forms of divination is sin, was to protect people for being stolen by others. Because at that times they had a lot of illnesses, and medicine was very limited, so peolple went to others that said that they had the cure of all. Dont forget that bible was wrote by men, they said that God talked to they, so they had been psychics. I think that chatolic church is changing, are a lot open mind. To say the truth i learn a lot whith priests. Two of them teatched me the symbolism of tarot cards.I read tarot for they and their family. And i learned a lot really whith a bishop, important one.He teatched me to meditate and how pray and fell the precense of God, like João Paulo II made. And is really good, actually i fell the precense of God, and i do excalty like he told me. I´m sorry blashamma, if i´m changing the subject. I dont mean that,but i think people stay at the past. Bible was good written for the time, now it´s time to change, not at chatolic church but at everyone. Bible was written like a woman at my cpuntry is writing her books. She (Alexandra Solnado)say that Jesus talk to her every night and He demand her to write everthing that He told her.

MeeWah	09 Jun 2005
This thread is being closed for two reasons, at least for now. 1. It has apparently served its purpose to an extent: that of pertaining to readers of the Catholic faith & its influence/relevance on the subject of divination. 2. The continual straying from the topic & resultant tangents whilst offering food for thought, unfortunately detracts from the discussion. ~MeeWah Senior Moderator

The Catholic Tarot Readers thread was originally posted on 31 May 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.