Gnosticism, Catholicism, and the Tarot

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 18 May 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

le pendu	18 May 2005
I'm noticing a growing trend to refer to Tarot as related to Gnosticim, and I'm pretty confused by it. I've been a casual follower of Gnosticism since I first read The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels some 20 years ago. I'm familiar with the texts, but certainly no scholar. I've read a little on the Cathers and the Bogomils... The Paulicans, Manichæism, and Priscillianism. What keeps seeming apparent to me is that, from what we can tell of their beliefs, they were often Duelists.. We are sparks of light created by The Good God, but are trapped in the material world, the making of The Bad God. As such, these religions stressed an identification with the Spiritual, and abhored anything to do with the material world. The ultimate goal being to be released from The Bad God's world and rejoin the light of The Good God. To partake in any enjoyment of the physical world was at least sinful if not damning. As such, they were deemed heretics for many reasons. They denied the power of the Catholic Church, (or any earthly powers), and often equated them with The Bad God. They denied the Virgin Birth, but they denied the "birth" at all since Jesus could never have actually taken a body at all as that is in the power of The Bad God. They did not have communion as they did not believe that Jesus's body ever was or could be made flesh. They renounced anything "earthly" as a representation of The Bad God. In extreme cases, celebacy was enforced to stop the progenation of material bodies. Strict eating codes were adapted to keep the body from further contamination. Purity laws were strictly enforced for those deeply involved in the church. No where in the Tarot do I find any kind symbolism that makes sense from a Gnositic point of view. In fact, ignoring the fact that they would never have touched images (one of the many failings of the Catholic Church) and would have considered it a sin, many of the cards would have been nothing less than the exact opposite of Gnostic belief. The Pope, Judgement, Wheel... well frankly most of the cards. Judgement in particular, for a group of people who believed that the earth was hell, and the whole point was to shed the material world, the idea of bodies being resurrected would have been unbearable. So what am I missing? Has Gnostic become a catchphrase for anti-church-establishment? Have we latched on to the idea that because they believed enlightenment and salvation were possible without a priestly intermediary we've equated Gnosticism to our own spiritual paths? Is the assumption that women were often considered equal to men, simply because Gnostics tended to view sex/gender as just another representation of The Bad God, somehow proving they were enlightened? What is so interesting about Gnosticism that it seems to be becoming the new "it" word, being equated to unconventional and somehow deeper spiritually? Or am I reading about the wrong groups of Gnostics? What should I be reading that makes Gnostism related to Tarot? When I look at the Tarot, I see many things and many connections. To me, it is flooded with Catholic iconography. What seems to be completely lacking is any connection to Gnosticism whatsoever. So I'm confused by this, and hope to learn how the two are related... and why Gnosticism seems to have become a spiritual path that is somehow desirable. thanks, robert

firemaiden	18 May 2005
Good question, le pendu!! When I have used the word, I have used it to mean (something I was told it could mean) - that I seek to know God through experience, rather than through belief. I will suspend disbelief, and not seek to believe, but I will be open to experience. The same goes for my relationship to tarot. I will not go as far as to say I "believe" in tarot, but am willing at least to suspend disbelief, belief or disbelief becomes irrelevant to me. I seek only to experience it.

kwaw	19 May 2005
Some people have, through what they perceive as dualistic aspects within the tarot, sought a connection with specifically dualistic sects such as the Gnostic sects. While agreeing there is an element of dualism, I think to then imagine roots in heretical dualist sects an unneccesary 'leap'. "The medieval world is characterized by various form of dualism. There is the dualism of clergy and laity, the dualism of Latin and Teuton, the dualism of the kingdom of heaven and the kingdoms of this world, the dualism of the spirit and the flesh. All of these are exemplified in the dualism of Pope and Emperor." [russel., b. p304]. In other threads I have compared the Popesse and World cards to the 'City of God', and the Empress and Tower cards to the 'City of the Damned' [babylon/rome], in this I am not referencing heretical Gnostic theology, but orthodox Augustinian [orthodox for the time, in the polemics of the counter reformation augustininian doctrine was disavowed by catholisism as it was incorporated into protestantism]. Then there is a confusion I believe between Gnosis, the concept of a direct and personal relationship with the divine without the in intermediary of priest and church, with the Gnostics. This brand of 'mystical' Christianity can be found within the orthodox church itself i believe, without the need to resort to referencing heretical gnostic sects. It could lead to heresy however, and tended to be reformist in nature. The 'Le Monde' card of the noblet card for example has been described as a 'female christ' [kaplan, vol 2, p181]. The semi-nude, breasted figure has a loin cloth of leaves, suggesting a conflation of Christ and Eve. Given that within the context of the world card we might expect to find a figure of Christ as Judge [frequently portrayed within a mandorla and with the four evangelists] we may see, in viewing how the image differs from the traditional iconagraphy, a conflation of the concepts of Christ the Judge with the Creation of Eve which are to be found together particulary in 16th century art. of this concept it is said: "The centrality given to the figure of Christ and to the redemption brought about by him after the initial ruinous victory of evil over mankind was one of the fundamental ideas of a particular type of religiousness, of reformist tendency, associated with justification by faith alone..... and of direct contact with God." [scala/riverside, p.52, discussing the painting 'christ the judge and the creation of eve' by the siennese painter pontormo]. Thirdly there is the puzzle of the Popesse card. Without the title 'Popesse' itself the iconography could be taken as an orthordox portrayal of Ecclesia or the Papacy, or possibly the annunciation of Mary. But the title 'Popesse' is suggestive of an unorthodox interpretation of the image in which some see a reference to gnostic sects in which woman were counted as equal to men or at least could rise to positions of power in the spiritual hierarchy, and of which there is the example in some sects of a 'Popesse' figure. However, it could also reference not heretical sects but those of a reformist tendency within the church in which the figure of Pope Joan was often incorporated in the polemics of satire. IMHO therefore, while I agree there is an element of 'unorthodoxy', I tend to view those elements as reflecting the reformist tendencies within the church, of a mystical tendency that valued the concept of a personal and direct relationship with the divine and were keen to counter the percieved corruption of the church that was leading to increasing irreverence of its role and of the papacy; rather than as reflecting heretical sects outside of the church. Kwaw Ref: Russel, Bertrand: A History of Western Philosopy Kaplan, Stuart R.: Encylopedia of Tarot. Vol2 Scala/Riverside: Pontormo Rosso Fiorentino Augustine: The City of God

jmd	19 May 2005
Perhaps one should make a distinction between dualistic Gnosticism, and the gnostic element found even within the Catholic church. It is this latter that I personally suspect may be more at play within the imagery of Tarot, especially as it relates to the more gnostic leanings of the reformation, and hence also Huguenots. I tend to agree with le pendu that the dualistic heresies, in themselves, do not seem reflected in Tarot. But this does not mean that the rich and mutually enriching milieu of Provence, in which, as I write elsewhere (in a small booklet I have at times used in very specific courses):[indent]During this same period we have developments occurring at one of the crossroads of civilisation in the Provence area of southern France. Here, not only the port of Marseilles, which provided merchants and others contact with the important northern, southern and eastern European cultures, but also the rich diversity of the northern African continent and Arabian peninsula, Judea - earlier renamed Palestine by the Roman empire - included. The Jewish communities were there in close contact with various developments in each of these places. Here also, or nearby at Posquières, an important school which was to have ramifications for later developments flourished. The Tree tended there bore many fruits, and the seeds of those fruits were carried and cared for not only with the local light and air of the various communities, but was also to provide some of the seeds for the northern Italian renaissance of three centuries later. It is here that we have the important confluence of the schools of the Parisian masonic area, of the Islamic Mamluk remnants - without the overt specifically Islamic influence, the Muslims having been banished from the region centuries earlier, of the neo-platonism making its resurgence, of underground Cathar and Bogomil influence, and of the discipline and scholarship in the Merkabah work within the Jewish community.[/indent]If one looks carefully at the constructed imagery - as I am well aware that both Firemaiden and le pendu do, what remains of course striking are not only the details, but the overall sense between images. Can one say, in any case, that the stone carvings upon mediaeval (or Romanesque, even) church buildings, whether Cathedral, monastery or church, is 'Roman Catholic Church' as we now appear to understand it? I would claim that the gnostic element, again, within the catholic Christian tradition is quite strong... even if it went through periods of dis-favour. Of course, and irrespective of this, there is the additional question as to whether the imagery even reflects specifically gnostic, or neo-platonic, or neo-pythagorean, or crypto-Jewish, or Huguenot leanings, and, if so, the more difficult question as to why this may be the case.

jmd	19 May 2005
I was typing and had not noted your wonderful response, kwaw...

Fudugazi	19 May 2005
Thanks Robert :) It's about time we discuss this. I am as confused as you ;) My studies on Catharism really don't lead me to believe that this was a group of people who would touch something like the Tarot with a barge-pole! But ideas are funny things. Some parts of them can linger even as others are washed away. When the Cathars were broken and massacred and scattered in the 13th-14th centuries in what is now Southern France, their ideas did not entirely disappear, but they did mutate. One thing that remained in the Southern half of France (not France then) - and I would argue it had been here since Gaulish times - is a strong anti-Roman, anti-esblishment strain, which developed into a strong anti-Church feeling. That is how the Cathar religion had been able to "take" so easily there in the first place. Many people supported the Cathars, without being fully dualist gnostic themselves, because of their anti-clericalism and anti-establishment. These feelings continued - and in the very places where the Tarot de Marseille developed its separate iconography. Some kind of "gnosticism lite" developed between Southern France, Northern Italy and Catalonia that remained very popular, particularly among the artisan class and the petty bourgeoisie (these were abandoned by the grand folk that had initially supported Catharism). They continued to go to Church and behave like good Catholics, but in their attitudes, things were less clear. It is those people too who adhered the first to the Reformation ideas in the 16th century, btw, and in the same places where Catharism had spread. The main idea that remained, after the defeat of the Cathars, was that the soul was the most important part of man, and that it needed no intermediary, least of all in a corrupt church (which is exactly what the Protestants said later). The neoplatonic progress of the spirit that is apparent in the 22 Major Arcana of the Tarot can easily fit into that idea. I find it interesting - without reaching any further conclusions - that the Tarot developed and became popular in the places where gnosticism had been strongest (apart from Bulgaria) - Southern France, Northern Italy, Catalonia. In Italy first (by all accounts) then into France and Catalonia. This could show that the idea of the progress of the soul unmediated (and unpaid for in indulgences) that we see in the tarot is not only platonic in origin, but has its roots in local gnosticism, debased, but still affecting the sensibilities of the artists and artisans that made the tarot. I would argue - particularly the Tarot de Marseille. But as for it being a dualist gnostic document - I agree with kwaw. Gnostics believe in reincarnation, for one: and I can't see a sign of that in the Tarot. The question as to why any influence in the Tarot - which kwaw very pertinently poses - for me can find part of the answer in looking at who made tarots. The artisans engravers and card-makers all had their specific sensibilities and guild traditions, initiations and beliefs; so that in addition to re-using available iconography (e.g. Christ sitting in a mandorla) made changes that conformed with these sensibilities and beliefs (a naked lady dancing in a mandorla).

kwaw	19 May 2005
Helvetica wrote: Gnostics believe in reincarnation, for one: and I can't see a sign of that in the Tarot. The wheel of fortune could be interpreted as such, the hermit and WoF interpreted as the linear and cyclical aspects of time. Christian Platonic apologists interpreted the Platonic description of reincarnation into animals as theriomorphic representations on the wheel of fortune; in orthodox Christian context an allegory of the 'animalistic' soul of a man attached to the mutable in which the 'animal' nature of man is predominant in those whose 'happiness' is conflated with the fulfillment of his appetites. Kwaw

SphinYote	19 May 2005
firemaiden wrote: Good question, le pendu!! When I have used the word, I have used it to mean (something I was told it could mean) - that I seek to know God through experience, rather than through belief. I will suspend disbelief, and not seek to believe, but I will be open to experience. The same goes for my relationship to tarot. I will not go as far as to say I "believe" in tarot, but am willing at least to suspend disbelief, belief or disbelief becomes irrelevant to me. I seek only to experience it. Curious, that sounds more like the definition of agnostic. I have a friend who defined it as "absence of proof isn't proof of absence," usually in reference to a higher force or spiritual ideas....

Obscure	19 May 2005
Gnosticism is a very slippery term, and seems to have become increasingly slippery, being applied to almost any set of beliefs that emphasize the soul's divinity and are not otherwise orthodox Christian. I appreciated Helvetica's comments about the Cathars (who seem as unlikely a historical source for the cards as the Pharohs). It does seem that the cards rather quickly came to be understood as heretical or at least opposed to the Catholic Church, and not just because of their association with gambling. But being heretical doesn't inevitably mean gnostic. Besides, it appears that John Paul II himself was interested in the cards. Here's a picture of the late pontiff with "Meditations on the Tarot" at his side: http://www.medtarot.freeserve.co.uk/pictures.htm For myself, it's the meditative uses one can make of the cards that push them in the direction of gnosticism. If you find that they present you with something like archetypes or neoplatonic forms, then you have certainly moved toward areas that gnostics and people interested in gnosticism have explored. (I'm thinking of Jung or The Golden Dawn or Ouspensky.) Still, it might be more accurate -- if less readily comprehensible to most Tarot enthusiasts -- to say with the author of "Meditations on the Tarot" that this sort of work is hermetic rather than gnostic. Obscure

HOLMES	19 May 2005
The Gnostic Tarot: Mandalas for Spiritual Transformation but i didnt' understand it,, so i put it away for that is what i wanted to share that this is a complicated topic which one has to do a lot of research into them. i think gnostis is what it refers to and not the gnotisc gospels but I am quite a newbie to gnostic can you give some awesome books for one to look at.

wandking	19 May 2005
Solid evidence of exact Gnostic practices is meager indeed. The term Gnosticism appears to apply to a wide range of theosophies condemned by the Pope. Pope Innocent III, didn't address Cathers, but instead Gnosticism in general. I suspect if we could somehow transfer a modern Protestant Church that had a female minister back in time, certain Popes would label them Gnostic as well. It is conceivable that some religious group that fell into an archaic definition of Gnosticism used symbolism that resembled the trumps. After all, Rosenwald images of the Pope and Popess bear an uncanny resemblance to each other. The concept of men and women holding equal religious rank fall into an archaic definition Gnosticism. As far as Tarot having definitive roots in Gnosticism, no solid evidence exists. The Golden Dawn might have held Gnostic leanings. Modern groups that bear the name openly endorse Gnosticism but even now the term seems to embrace some fairly diverse practices. Saying he or she "is a Gnostic" is like saying someone is a Christian. Jim Jones and David Koresh were considered Christians by their followers. Paulinists, on the other hand, offer a clear record through the "Christian Fathers," which were historians like Hermias Sozomen who discribes an Arien Heresy. Sozomen mentions no distinctly Gnostic Christian sect in attendance at Nicea but Arius purportedly drew an inordinately large female following, which suggests a potential conclusion. Sources state Arius taught dogma of Paul of Samosata, patriarch of Antioch from 260 until excommunication in 270 CE and advanced Paulianist Doctrine. By supporting heretic principals according to the Sozomen list of Council rulings, Paul earns a position in history in a Council rulling called Canon XIX: “With regard to Paulianists who take refuge in the Catholic Church, it has been decided that they definitely need to be [re]baptized. If, however, some of them have previously functioned as priests, if they seem to be immaculate and irreprehensible, they need to be baptized and ordained by a bishop of the Catholic Church. In this way, one must also deal with deaconesses or with anyone in an ecclesiastical office. With regard to the deaconesses who hold this position we remind [church leaders] that they possess no ordination but are to be reckoned among the laity in every respect.” It becomes clear that this statement implies that female deaconesses previously held ecclesiastical offices in Christian Churches, specifically those associated with Paul of Samosata. Like Arian practices, the Council condemns Paulianist Doctrine. Another important historian outlines actions of Paul of Samosata. The ecclesiastical historian Eusebius, a bishop from Palestine, often referred to as the father of church history, reports in Historia Ecclesiastica, Volume VII. Chapter 30, that Paul consorted with “two sisters of ripe age and fair to look upon.” It goes on to say that, he allowed presbyters or deacons to contract platonic unions with Christian women. No actual lapses of chastity are alleged, and it supposedly “only raised suspicions among the pagans.” I suspect prior to 325 Christian practices were even more diverse than they are in modern times.

Rosanne	19 May 2005
.....and I would argue it had been here since Gaulish times - is a strong anti-Roman, anti-esblishment strain, which developed into a strong anti-Church feeling. Quote from Helvetica. Thank you for that observation Helvetica. Everytime I look at TdM, I get the feeling that is what the cards portray.~Rosanne

Nevada	19 May 2005
Le pendu, There are so many forms of gnosticism that this question really has to be narrowed down. I've only read of Tarot being gnostic in origin, in relation to the Mary Magdalene stories or beliefs that it was used as a tool in Occitania to secretly teach gnostic beliefs. But I understand that was only one particular set of gnostic beliefs. Elaine Pagels, to my knowledge, doesn't touch on that in her studies of early Christian Gnosticism. Christine Payne-Towler (The Underground Stream, Esoteric Tarot Revealed) and Margaret Starbird (The Woman With the Alabaster Jar) have both written about this theory of the origination of Tarot. Nevada

le pendu	19 May 2005
Hi All, I'm at work, so don't have time to reply in the detail I hope to later this evening. Thanks everyone for sharing, I appreciate the time and understanding you have put in your thoughts. Nevada, I think that the mention you make of the connection Christine Payne-Towler and Margaret Starbird is probably influencing much of the Gnosticism/Tarot connection. Have you read these books? If so, how do they justify the link? It's clear that Occitania was a hotbed for rebelious religous and temporal power struggles for centuries before the Cathers, but how is this reflected in the Tarot. Do they give a convincing arguement for connecting Occitanian Gnosticism to the Tarot? thanks, robert

Fudugazi	19 May 2005
Rosanne wrote: .....and I would argue it had been here since Gaulish times - is a strong anti-Roman, anti-esblishment strain, which developed into a strong anti-Church feeling. Quote from Helvetica. Thank you for that observation Helvetica. Everytime I look at TdM, I get the feeling that is what the cards portray.~Rosanne I wish I could have your certainty, Rosanne! I look at Le Pape and see a friendly old bloke who just wants to teach me something or show me the way - not a corrupt man in Rome at all. But perhaps that's the point and we are dealing with reverse psychology here? Well, no doubt the simple fact of having the Pope on a playing card, taking tricks and not even very high up in the hierarchy of cards, would have grated with the Church powers!

Nevada	19 May 2005
le pendu wrote: Nevada, I think that the mention you make of the connection Christine Payne-Towler and Margaret Starbird is probably influencing much of the Gnosticism/Tarot connection. Have you read these books? If so, how do they justify the link? It's clear that Occitania was a hotbed for rebelious religous and temporal power struggles for centuries before the Cathers, but how is this reflected in the Tarot. Do they give a convincing arguement for connecting Occitanian Gnosticism to the Tarot? I've read Starbird's book, The Woman With the Alabaster Jar. She makes an excellent argument for many of the Magdalen stories, and touches on Tarot as a teaching tool used by the gnostics of southern France. But she has written another book, which I haven't read, titled The Tarot Trumps and the Holy Grail, which may go into more detail as to how she believes the Tarot originated. I've only read online excerpts of Payne-Towler's writings, so far. You could try a Google search for her name to locate these. Here's a link to the thread started by Firemaiden in August 2003 in which Christine Payne-Towler participated, discussing this topic: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=17117 Nevada

Rosanne	19 May 2005
Helvetica wrote: I wish I could have your certainty, Rosanne! I look at Le Pape and see a friendly old bloke who just wants to teach me something or show me the way - not a corrupt man in Rome at all. But perhaps that's the point and we are dealing with reverse psychology here? Well, no doubt the simple fact of having the Pope on a playing card, taking tricks and not even very high up in the hierarchy of cards, would have grated with the Church powers! I don't have any certainty, Helvetica. I read all the historical threads and enjoy the ponderings. Somewhere in all erudite musings, I wonder if something is been lost on the highway. I think a sense of 'Wink wink, nod nod, aye aye aye' has gone. What I meant was when I look at Le Pape I see a sort of conversation (of my fancy only, I admit) "Ho Ho he blesses the cardinals.. little wee men to do his bidding, I will point his blessing hand toward the Cathars (Left pointing)We know what the Pope is up to HeHe." Now Take the La Papess. "Hmmm Mother Church eh?, lets make her pregnant, We know all about the Magdalene,give her a book of Wisdom, that will fool them.. we know all about the Gospels.. those Papists are a Joke"...thats what I meant. I see in each of the 22 Cards a 'poking out of the tongue at the Church' and underground satire. When I read these threads I am reminded of the old Joke about in depth answers. It goes like this _'Mummy where did I come from?' Mother sits her ten year old down, gets out her biology book and gives her Daughter a long in depth lesson in Bodily functions. Daughter looks bored and says "But Mum, was I born in St Helens or National Womens Hospital, I have to say at school tommorrow" ~Rosanne

kwaw	19 May 2005
le pendu wrote: Hi All, Nevada, I think that the mention you make of the connection Christine Payne-Towler and Margaret Starbird is probably influencing much of the Gnosticism/Tarot connection. Have you read these books? If so, how do they justify the link? It's clear that Occitania was a hotbed for rebelious religous and temporal power struggles for centuries before the Cathers, but how is this reflected in the Tarot. Do they give a convincing arguement for connecting Occitanian Gnosticism to the Tarot? Some of Christine's articles are in the tarot.com library [same site as the o'neill essays]. Christine on gnostics here: http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/library/essays/gnostic kwaw

Dark Inquisitor	20 May 2005
le pendu wrote: When I look at the Tarot, I see many things and many connections. To me, it is flooded with Catholic iconography. What seems to be completely lacking is any connection to Gnosticism whatsoever. There you go, asking logical questions ! To me, the key words in the above are : "To me.." To me, the TDM is flooded with pagan symbolism as well as some Christian . Some scholarly articles on tarot websites go on at considerable length about the Christian origins , and repeatedly mention pagan gods in their text . And then just dismiss them, or don't even seem to realize it as significant. Most of the questions raised and answers posed on this forum in regard to tarot origins are Christo-centric. Or Bible based . I could probably pick out one of you and go through the Bible and find quotes that apply accurately to your personal life. Or maybe I could do it in the latest bestseller too. I could relate everything to Christ and the Bible if I chose to . And that would nicely filter out anything else . If we are going to look at the tarot and origins, try not to put blinders on. Ask unconvential questions. Look in strange places: http://www.phanes.com/phanes.html Nigel Jackson thinks the TDM was influenced by a Greek colony in the vicinity of Marseilles. If the tarot was just a little shepherd book of bible teachings , it wouldn't be so peculiar . There wouldn't be so many oddities and inconsistencies and outright heresies. But again , "to me" applies. We see what we want to see , just like looking in a mirror. By remaining Christo-centric in our thinking , we effectively alienate people of other religions or the non-religious. We declare that tarot is a "Christian tool". This negates the universality of the tarot . Again, why is there no God card? No Jesus card? Once you put in a God card, or a Jesus card, you've blown it. It's nailed down as this or that, belonging to one religion and dragging all the baggage with it. It fails to apply to everyone and becomes property of a certain group . That (to me) does not seem to be the message of the tarot . Anyone can use it and see in it what they will. To present only one side as fact is not realistic. If you want to peer deeply into the nature of representations and motivations, you need to look at what is there, as well as what is NOT there. Just as during a reading , the answer is often plain if we will look without preconceptions and be willing to change our perspective. If this sounded like a lecture, it was.

le pendu	20 May 2005
Hi Dark Inquisitor, I just want to point out that I am more than willing to look at if from a pagan point of view, if anything, I consider myself more aligned with paganism than anything else. In fact, I think it is my pagan sensibility that is bothered by the negative association of the material world that.. and I say it again.. to me.. seems to permeate Gnosticism. Just want to be clear that I have no fondness for the Catholic/Christian church, there is no desire to lean in that way. But I see much more Catholicism in the deck than I do Paganism or Gnostism. With the exception of the Popess, which still in my mind has no definitive origin, what leads you to believe Tarot weighs more heavily to Paganism than Catholicism or Gnosticism. I sincerely want to understand your perspecitive. How does Paganism explain the Judgement card?... Stength, Justice, Temperance, the Pope, the Emperor and Empress, or the Devil? best, robert

le pendu	20 May 2005
Is it fair to say then that we can refer to at least three specific forms of Gnosticism: 1. Early Christian Gnostics, as in the Nag Hammad library, as described in books like "The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels. Examples would be The Gospel of Mary, The Gospel of Truth, or The Secret Book of James. 2. Gnostic Christians, as described in this thread by Kwaw and JMD. Existing as a.. how do I put it.. "perspective" within the church itself. Would we all agree that the Gospel of John is an example of this? 3. Heretic Gnostics, like the Cathers and the Bogomils. Which most here in this discussion seem to think not a "responsible" influence on the Tarot, but a possible influence on the TdM. robert

Dark Inquisitor	20 May 2005
My post was really not taking issue with you personally le pendu- I have read some of your posts in the past and noted your sensibilities . I congratulate you for asking the question about gnosticism and outlining the contradiction so beautifully. My frustration results from the habit of only presenting the Christian point of view that is so common here - without doubt , question, or balance. I am going to repost my post as a new thread, so you can continue with the gnostic issue.

Fudugazi	20 May 2005
Rosanne wrote: I see in each of the 22 Cards a 'poking out of the tongue at the Church' and underground satire. When I read these threads I am reminded of the old Joke about in depth answers. It goes like this _'Mummy where did I come from?' Mother sits her ten year old down, gets out her biology book and gives her Daughter a long in depth lesson in Bodily functions. Daughter looks bored and says "But Mum, was I born in St Helens or National Womens Hospital, I have to say at school tommorrow" LOL :) Yes, I think you're right and we can be over-serious in our whole approach! Especially given who it was making the cards - these artisans took their work seriously but had a lot of fun with drawing their characters, I think. If we also look where many of the cards were made (Southern half of France) we can see the anti-authoritarian strain play itself out in the tarot: though Parisians like Noblet weren't exactly meek when it came to authorities - Church and Temporal. We need a few more New Zealanders to start looking at the TdM! (Phoenix Rising, where are you?) I think, too, Rosanne, your very strong grounding in the Catholic Church and its imagery, allied with your critical distance from it, is giving you some advantage in how you approach the iconography. But to come back to gnosis: well, in its original meaning as used by Campbell, I can see no problem in applying it to the Tarot; but it has mutated so much and become to mean so many things to different people - as demonstrated above by our scholars jmd and kwaw - that I don't find it helpful to say that the Tarot is a gnostic document. What Christine Payne-Towler means by Gnostic is not what Joseph Campbell meant - or even what some of her contemporaries mean. The term by itself is just too vague. And as soon as we try and pin it down - "it is this kind of gnostic document" it escapes again, eel-like, because of course, it can also be shown to be a Catholic-inspired document or a simple anti-clerical one (like Rosanne has demonstrated above, or like kwaw has done lately in his discussion of the Papess). That is not to say I don't enjoy Payne-Towler's articles - I do! and I think she is worth reading. Like Obscure, I am rather more inclined to accept the term hermetic used in The Meditations on the Tarot - for all its connotations of mystery that can be elucidated at the personal and initiatory level. The tarot is elusive if we try and pin it down purely objectively. Studying the symbolism, the iconography, the methods, traditions, inspiration and beliefs of the artists and artisans that made it, the intellectual currents of the time, the cross-overs with other philosophical or mystical systems, etc. can help us understand - but I don't think anyone will ever have the final word in objective and intellectual terms. Kwaw - I take your point on the Wheel and reincarnation. It could indeed be interpreted that way. I am not sure what the educated classes of the Renaissance, far less the artisans, thought of Platonic ideas of reincarnation!

Fudugazi	20 May 2005
le pendu wrote: 3. Heretic Gnostics, like the Cathers and the Bogomils. Which most here in this discussion seem to think not a "responsible" influence on the Tarot, but a possible influence on the TdM. The cathars regarded themselves as Christians. They rejected the ancient Testament and took Christ as a non-incarnate, pure soul. That is for the Perfects (as they called themselves) in their purest form. But many Cathars were not so theologically absolute and as the religion was put down violently first by the French invading troops then by the Inquisition, it went underground and mutated. Many people who supported the Cathars did so out of anti-clericalism, anti-Roman feeling. As far as I can make out, orthodox Christianity tagged all Gnostic Christians with the same "heretic" label, thought there were levels of gravity in heresy.

le pendu	20 May 2005
Helvetica wrote: Especially given who it was making the cards - these artisans took their work seriously but had a lot of fun with drawing their characters, I think. If we also look where many of the cards were made (Southern half of France) we can see the anti-authoritarian strain play itself out in the tarot: though Parisians like Noblet weren't exactly meek when it came to authorities - Church and Temporal. I've started a new thread, (which may quite possbily be a small, short one), concerning something that has been bothering for a while and is touched upon by Helvetica above.. http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=42161 How sure are we that the TdM comes from Occitania anyways? Are we working off an assumption when we speak of the TdM as a Occitanian deck? robert

kwaw	20 May 2005
le pendu wrote: Is it fair to say then that we can refer to at least three specific forms of Gnosticism: 2. Gnostic Christians, as described in this thread by Kwaw and JMD. Existing as a.. how do I put it.. "perspective" within the church itself. Would we all agree that the Gospel of John is an example of this? robert While there may have been heretics within the church that wasn't my point. One of the defining characteristics of Gnosticism may be dualism, that doesn't mean that all expressions of dualism are gnostic. If that was the case then the whole of the medieval christian church would be gnostic. Similarly, while another defining characteristic of Gnosticism may be gnosis, believe in and pursuit of a direct 'knowledge' of God, not all expressions of such are not necessarily gnostic; otherwise we would be led to consider that the whole gamut of christian mysticism as 'gnostic'. Personally I don't consider that the tarot is particularly gnostic in any strictly acedemic sense of the term; nor in the sence advocated by Christine. I do believe however there are platonic, neoplatonic and hermetic influences. kwaw

kwaw	20 May 2005
Helvetica wrote: LOL :) Kwaw - I take your point on the Wheel and reincarnation. It could indeed be interpreted that way. I am not sure what the educated classes of the Renaissance, far less the artisans, thought of Platonic ideas of reincarnation! As I said, Christian Humanist Platonist of the 15th century allegorised it using the image of the wheel and theriomorphic characters as the decline into animal natures through vice or attachment to the appetitive soul. It may be for some this hid a belief in the possibility of reincarnation. Certainly a belief in reincarnation was held by the Jewish kabbalists [which is essentially neo-platonic]. Kwaw

Fudugazi	20 May 2005
kwaw wrote: As I said, Christian Humanist Platonist of the 15th century allegorised it using the image of the wheel and theriomorphic characters as the decline into animal natures through vice or attachment to the appetitive soul. It may be for some this hid a belief in the possibility of reincarnation. Certainly a belief in reincarnation was held by the Jewish kabbalists [which is essentially neo-platonic] . Yes, quite. And I suppose to have said too loudly one believed in reincarnation in circa 1500 would have landed the speaker before an Inquisitorial court. Certainly in Languedoc it was taken as proof of practising (or believing) the Albigensian heresy... Plato wrote that the appetites were to be tamed by Temperance, in the form of music - yet Temperance is 4 cards later. I wonder why, if the grotesques on the Wheel are supposed to be humanity degraded by appetite?

Ross G Caldwell	20 May 2005
Helvetica wrote: Yes, quite. And I suppose to have said too loudly one believed in reincarnation in circa 1500 would have landed the speaker before an Inquisitorial court. Certainly in Languedoc it was taken as proof of practising (or believing) the Albigensian heresy... One of the things that made Giordano Bruno a heretic in 1592 was his belief in reincarnation. The doctrine was frequently condemned by Church councils (since Origen held it too). Ovid gave an account of Pythagoras' teaching on the subject in Book 15 of the Metamorphoses, so the doctrine was well enough known to educated people throughout the middle ages, even if the redactor of classical mythology Boccaccio (in his De Genealogia Deorum, c. 1370) called it a "ridiculous opinion". Marziano da Tortona, following Boccaccio and the classical sources, credits Mercury with leading souls out of bodies and back into new ones in his description of the pack of cards he designed for Filippo Maria Visconti (Tractatus de deificatione sexdecim heroum).

Fudugazi	20 May 2005
Ross - we must have been reading each others' minds. I was thinking of Giordano Bruno (I know -he was burnt a century later than 1500). It seems from your description that if a belief was ascribed to classical (i.e. pagan) sources, then it was acceptable (or at least, did not necessarily land its author in hot water - or hot fire, I should say!). I wonder if gnosticism was treated the same way??? Maybe, after all, if nothing more threatening than a pack of cards was used to transmit gnostic beliefs... Why not? (still sceptical - but playing with possibilities here)

Ross G Caldwell	20 May 2005
Helvetica wrote: Ross - we must have been reading each others' minds. I was thinking of Giordano Bruno (I know -he was burnt a century later than 1500). It seems from your description that if a belief was ascribed to classical (i.e. pagan) sources, then it was acceptable (or at least, did not necessarily land its author in hot water - or hot fire, I should say!). I wonder if gnosticism was treated the same way??? Maybe, after all, if nothing more threatening than a pack of cards was used to transmit gnostic beliefs... Why not? (still sceptical - but playing with possibilities here) I think it was alright to talk about just about anything, as long it wasn't promoted - published - as truth. The idea of reincarnation could easily be discussed, and in most cases dismissed in favor of the orthodox opinion. It is a display of learning to show how many opinions, whether of the ancients or contemporaries, that one knows - especially the "false" ones. Marziano's little book does not dismiss the idea, but it doesn't "promote" it either - it was something of learned game to find the wisdom in classical, pre-christian, allegories. This became the hallmark of the Renaissance, but it had always gone on to some extent. Marziano was actually a priest and his book was meant for one person only. He no doubt had had long discussions with Filippo Maria about all kinds of classical subjects - but I am sure Filippo Maria's religious ideas, at least from the fragments we know, were not "orthodox"! I don't know about reincarnation, but he is reported to have said at one time that he cared less for his body than for his soul, and less for his soul than for the security of the state. I'm not sure that reflects reincarnation... rather, it may reflect a Visconti thing - during the trial of his great-great grandfather Matteo in 1322, Matteo was accused of believing that there was no afterlife, and that at death both body and soul died (Matteo and three of his sons were on trial for heresy and witchcraft - against Pope John XXII! (then at Avignon)). Maybe Filippo was similarly inclined... Interesting stuff, I know...

wandking	20 May 2005
Gnosticism and Tarot have at least on thing in common. Approaching either topic with specific black or white assumptions is ludicrous. For example, documenting exact dates of Crusade battles is easy enough: however, finding any record of specific Cather practices causes problems. First, there's the obvious issue that the Crusaders and Pope potentially "demonized" their enemy to justify their aggressive actions, making what few records we have about Cather practices highly questionable because they are likely early examples of propaganda. Then we face the black or white issue. I suspect most Gnostic theosophies were a shade of gray that varied between minor deviations in Christianity, like Arianism and more extreme practices, like Catherism. I've read far too many peudo-intellectual articles that ramble on about Gnosticism without offering any specific sources for the detailed information on Gnostic practices that forms the basis of their conclusions. I have come to expect more than shoddy scholarship from most of the people who have responded to this message board. Can anyone provide even highly questionable descriptions by Church representitives of exact Cather practices?

wandking	20 May 2005
Ross, like some answer to a plea was posting at the same time as me.... or I failed to read the last page of postings. At any rate, that's the kind of post, I've come to expect from many of you. Thanks Ross

DoctorArcanus	20 May 2005
The Webster online defines Gnosis as esoteric knowledge of spiritual truth held by the ancient Gnostics to be essential to salvation. So what defines Gnosticism is that salvation depends on knowledge, not on grace. This is not compatible with Catholicism. But Gnosis can indeed be compatible with ortodox catholicism, as long as the importance of knowledge does not make grace irrelevant. The other point is if knowledge is compatible with ortodoxy or not. For instance, the dualist gnosis that assumes the material world is the creation of an "evil god" is not compatible with ortodoxy (nor with the book of Genesis). I think the preface that Cardinal Hans Urs von Balthasar wrote for Meditations on the Tarot is important in establishing a link between gnosis and Tarot: A thinking, praying Christian of unmistakable purity reveals to us the symbols of Christian Hermeticism in its various levels of mysticism, gnosis and magic, taking in also the Cabbala and certain elements of astrology and alchemy. These symbols are summarised in the twenty-two so-called "Major Arcana" of the Tarot cards. By way of the Major Arcana the author seeks to lead meditatively into the deeper, all-embracing wisdom of the Catholic Mystery. My personal opinion is that the connection between Gnosticism and Tarot is not an ancient one. Gnosticism has been rediscovered after many important texts (including some gnostic gospels) have been found in Nag Hammadi (Egypt) in 1945. I take this connection to be an example of new age syncretism....and I like it :)

jmd	20 May 2005
Irrespective as to how long there may be a link between some form of gnostic thought and Tarot (and I personally consider that the link is intrinsic, though not in its dualistic sense), it may be noted that Cardinal von Balthasar's foreword does no more, in this instance, on re-iterating what the author of the book itself does within the text. His usage of 'gnostic' is in that sense both ancient and modern.

Nevada	20 May 2005
le pendu wrote: Just want to be clear that I have no fondness for the Catholic/Christian church, there is no desire to lean in that way. But I see much more Catholicism in the deck than I do Paganism or Gnostism. With the exception of the Popess, which still in my mind has no definitive origin, what leads you to believe Tarot weighs more heavily to Paganism than Catholicism or Gnosticism. Interesting you should mention the Papess, because I just read yesterday that the Priestess is the one card some people associate directly with Mary Magdalen. Here's a link to a sample chapter from a not-yet-released book by Robert M. Place titled, A Gnostic Book of Saints: http://thealchemicalegg.com/MMagN.html However, I don't know what tarot deck he's referring to in his description of the card, and I haven't read any of his books. He refers to Susan Haskins, who wrote a book now out of print titled, Mary Magdalen Myth and Metaphor. I haven't read hers either, but I'm beginning to think I should. Her book has some rave reviews at Amazon, as well as used copies available. Nevada

NightWing	23 May 2005
There is a certain significance(underplayed here) to Cardinal Hans Urs von Balthasar's contribution to a book of meditations on the tarot, and the book subsequently showing up on Pope John Paul II's desk. If the book was on the desk, you can bet the (late) Pope read it. His biographers describe a voracious reader. The late Cardinal von Balthasar was considered by Pope John Paul II, and also by the present Pope Benedict XVI, to be the greatest Catholic theologian of the 20th century. His approval of the work is about as close as it gets to a modern papal & church approval of it. Modern popes don't do a lot of endorsements of books, or anything else. :-) For what it is worth, for devoted Catholics, at least that particular book is thus "approved" and even encouraged by example for their own reading and meditation. So not everything "tarot" is off-limits to Catholics in an official sense. Many Protestants...have their own problems, mostly stemming from taking the Bible in a too "literal" sense.

Fudugazi	24 May 2005
Nevada wrote: Interesting you should mention the Papess, because I just read yesterday that the Priestess is the one card some people associate directly with Mary Magdalen. Here's a link to a sample chapter from a not-yet-released book by Robert M. Place titled, A Gnostic Book of Saints : http://thealchemicalegg.com/MMagN.html However, I don't know what tarot deck he's referring to in his description of the card, and I haven't read any of his books. Place himself (from his great book Tarot: History, Symbolism, Divination) has another theory on the Papess: he believes her to be a pagan priestess, on the model of the Priestess of Venus in the Hypnerotomachia Polifili (don't say that with your mouth full of corn flakes;)) But there are a number of Papess-Magdalene theories around. The Magdalene as female mystic/learned woman is fashionable - in his Tarot of the Saints, he used this theory. I don't think it's entirely far-fetched, though I am cautiously sceptical.

Moongold	24 May 2005
Robert Place, in the handbook to the Buddha Tarot writes much the same, almost word for word in fact. He suggests that the function of the Papesse in one 16th Century Milanese deck (unnamed) was to balance the masculine with the feminine, a major aspect of alchemical and hermetic philosophy. He comments also that some people view La Papesse as representing the Church and that Le Pape is married to the Church. I remember hearing this view myself as a child listening to Redemptorist missionaries in my local bush parish. This idea of mystical marriage was not uncommon. The Buddha Tarot is interesting in that Robert Place makes strong correlations between the Marseille and his symbolic figures in the Buddha Tarot through the journey of Siddhartha. There is almost as much about the Marseille in this book as the Buddha Tarot itself, but it is fascinating to see the comparisons.

The Gnosticism, Catholicism, and the Tarot thread was originally posted on 18 May 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.