On debilitating doubt and the comfort of certainty

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 May 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Aoife	20 May 2005
I think doubt is a bit like anger. Its a reaction that most of us are uncomfortable with, and so understandably try to push it away... or turn our backs on. If that doesn’t work we can be tempted to blame Other [person/event/thing] for provoking it.... parcelling it up and dumping it on their doorstep, walking away with renewed certainty only to trip over another clump. I’ve been known to immerse myself in doubt in the futile hope of emerging better able to deal with it in the future. But I find doubt a very tricky and sticky substance... it gets everywhere... sometimes in the least expected places. And once its taken hold, its very hard to get rid of... or at least reduce to manageable proportions. And of course when doubt emerges, by its very nature we’re least well equipped to deal with it productively at that time. But I would argue that doubt is an invaluable check on the tendency to extremes, and an inevitable by-product of increasing maturity. Doubt is healthy... doubt is good. Its how we respond to it... its the negative connotations we place on it... that’s the problem. But I’m stating the obvious, so to specifics... Whenever I enter into an unequal relationship, where I am the one with the power.... where I am the one with the knowledge.... the expertise... the experience.. where I am the one in possession of some abstract commodity sought by the Other... I am beset with doubt and uncertainty. If my reaction was other than this I would absolutely refuse to enter into such a relationship. In my experience, those who do not feel at least some doubt, uncertainty and anxiety are potentially very dangerous. They tend to be closed systems... sometimes hiding inadequacy, invariably immaturity. Their certainty closes down their ability to draw from deep and intuitive insights. Their certainty places an impervious barrier between helper and helpee. Their certainty reinforces the power imbalance. Their certainty is but a comforting, unsustainable illusion. They can do damage. Doubt, uncertainty and anxiety provide a check on the power imbalance in the helping relationship and return it to a healthier state of deep interaction rather than prescriptive advice-giving. A relationship on this basis acknowledges and draws the wisdom and maturity of the sitter/seeker/querent, to access their own insights. And surely that is what matters? We’re working to enable them to impress themselves with their own insight. We’re aiming for them to walk out of the door thrilled by their ability to find their own possibilities, answers, direction. Aren’t we? We’re not in the business of impressing with our cleverness... our reassuring certainty... or are we? Its such a delicious temptation... to bask in their gratitude. We’ve all done it... at least a little bit... haven’t we? It would be lovely if the reading event was a balanced exchange of energies... if the price paid by the reader was offset by the sense of wellbeing we get from knowing that we’ve helped someone. In my experience it doesn’t turn out that way. The reader/helper is always the one metaphorically out of pocket. Altruism or money are never adequate rewards. Oh.. they may come close... they may sustain for a long while. But ultimately there’s a price to be paid by anyone who in the long term exposes themselves to the doubt, uncertainty and anxiety inherent in a genuine attempt to help another. With that degree of personal investment its hardly surprising that we can be tempted to get a bit more in return. It seems to me that that ‘bit more‘ most often takes the form of a need to be seen to be a good/spot-on reader. Its a rocky road, in my opinion. It threatens to make the reading [and thereby the cleverness of the reader] more important that the seeker.... which is not what we intend. Is it? So what to do about debilitating doubt? No... don’t tell me. Patent it... you’ll make a fortune. Seriously... I really believe if we stop perceiving doubt as a negative experience, we cross a threshold beyond which lies the wondrous Land of Possibilities. I sometimes think I was born with my own personal mountain of doubt - attached by a very short chain. These days I’m more interested in exploring the terrain than trying to sever the chain. Its a fascinating landscape. I’m rambling... I’ve mixed enough metaphors... I shall shut up now.

tmgrl2	20 May 2005
Aoife wrote: I think doubt is a bit like anger. Its a reaction that most of us are uncomfortable with, and so understandably try to push it away... or turn our backs on. If that doesn’t work we can be tempted to blame Other [person/event/thing] for provoking it.... parcelling it up and dumping it on their doorstep, walking away with renewed certainty only to trip over another clump. Doubt, uncertainty and anxiety provide a check on the power imbalance in the helping relationship and return it to a healthier state of deep interaction rather than prescriptive advice-giving. A relationship on this basis acknowledges and draws the wisdom and maturity of the sitter/seeker/querent, to access their own insights. And surely that is what matters? What a beautifully written and expressed post, Aoife. I couldn't agree with you more....debilitating doubt isn't with me so much these days as sometimes debilitating...need to KNOW outcomes... To control outcomes... But I totally agree with you...when I am anxious and uncertain....and sad (since for me when I am angry, there is usually a large bolus of sadness trying to bubble up to the surface)...I feel that these are the times I am open to learning the most. And I do believe that we are, as we interact from the heart, from our own feelings of ....love, doubt, uncertainty, anxiety, anger.... both teaching and learning...I think we continue to teach what we need to learn and we learn from those we interact with, when we come to them from a place of honesty of spirit. True for Tarot and has been true for me in my own work. I often shared in with families of children, e.g., my own battles since I was little with phobias and depression...and how I have travelled my road....many of my peers said "You told them WHAT?!!" I don't regret sharing honestly where I have been and what I have learned and what I am still learning. We all travel together, albeit, it feels lonely at times. I haven't been doing live readings lately since I have been in a place of DOUBT About whether or not I should even be reading The Tarot for another person. I am moving along with these feelings. Actually, there has been a lull in requests for readings...then after firemaiden's thread about the process of reading.... I shared some of my own feelings online and felt once again, some hope... Then I got a call asking if I would read for some clients of my masseuse... Again, the doubt, the fear ...crept in... The calls from the people themselves haven't come in...I just confirmed with her that they should call me... But...I will probably do the readings... I do identify with what you are saying and I sense we are not going to be rid of these doubts and uncertainties and angers and fears....I guess they are the forces which help us learn there is only love and that the rest are illusions keeping us from remembering who we really are. So much has been written about fear and love and about how they cannot coexist at the same time....I do find that when I place myself in a place where I do my best with love, and not run away...that the fear goes away. But if I had to speak the honest-to-god truth at this moment, I'm not sure I should be having people come to me for readings with Tarot. terri

Fudugazi	20 May 2005
Aoife wrote: It would be lovely if the reading event was a balanced exchange of energies... if the price paid by the reader was offset by the sense of wellbeing we get from knowing that we’ve helped someone. In my experience it doesn’t turn out that way. The reader/helper is always the one metaphorically out of pocket. Altruism or money are never adequate rewards. Oh.. they may come close... they may sustain for a long while. But ultimately there’s a price to be paid by anyone who in the long term exposes themselves to the doubt, uncertainty and anxiety inherent in a genuine attempt to help another. Aoife - I know you are talking tarot here - but I dare say, not strictly. There is a huge price to be paid. And the more we give trying to be "spot-on" (spot-on tarot reader, spot-on friend, spot-on humanitarian, spot-on social worker, spot-on therapist, spot-on aunt, spot-on lover, spot-on human being), the higher the price. Why is that? Isn't virtue its own reward? Isn't that what we are taught? And we all know that not giving is even worse. What if we find out that we are giving - but all wrong? That we are giving while holding back, or giving while hoping to change the outcome, or somehow change something over which we have no real influence? What if, in giving, we are really trying to become powerful? I read all kinds of good - right! - sentiments on this forum about care and putting querents first, and not judging and being open, etc. etc. And I think - I'm simply not up to it. I'm only human. I'll mix my sticks sometimes, my metaphors often. Sometimes the cards will be wrong for me - or me for them. Sometimes I'll project. Sometimes I'll give in and advise the guy to bloody well forget the bitch. Sometimes I'll want to see some change, hear some change, or see some gratitude, relief and joy on the face of my querent. Because all that is power. Food. It passes. I relax. I think - here are a few cards, a reading I give is a conversation that might change a querent or float off in the wind - like any other conversation. Maybe a word from it will remain. That's not so bad. Not quite virtue, but a scratching start :) Your doubts are catching, Aoife, but they found fertile ground anyway (mixing my metaphors with glee!).

DarkElectric	20 May 2005
Aoife, this is such a great topic! I have my go rounds with doubt on a regular basis. I should think, that by dealing with it every day I should be really good at it by now, but I'm not. Every time I do a reading for someone, it's there, sometimes at the back of my mind, somethimes a bit further forward, but it's always present. And it isn't just when I read cards, it's whenever I'm doing anything I really care about, and want to share with people. Doubt is always on the same the bill with me whenever I perform. Yes, I've spent my life perfecting my particular art. Yes, I usually get good reviews (nobody has a perfect record here, thank the Gods. It's essential to be humble, I believe.) But before I go onstage, there's always this little voice in my head which asks "What's your motivation here? Are you really presenting something worthwhile, because you love (whatever it may be) for it's own sake, or are you just some hackneyed, aging egotist who's blindsided by a prima donna syndrome which has gone completely off the rails?" It's pretty much the same when I read for someone. I sincerely love doing this, and always hope that I'm able to 'do right' by my clients. Some of them are disappointed that I don't give them a Miss Cleo style reading. I have come to the conclusion that these folks may not want a reading for it's own sake, but to have 'psychic abilities' reaffirmed. But I read the way I read, and I'm certainly not about to just make something up, or try to tap into the sitter's personal life in a psychic way. I consider that something akin to housebreaking, actually, and unless the client specifically asks for what I would call a "dirty laundry" reading, I won't just phase into someone's head and glean out whatever I can. (Athough sometimes messages or impressions do come through strongly, and I inform my client of them.) I do like feedback from my clients, I think this makes me a better reader all around. There is no better reflection of oneself than the reaction of others. Even if the reading was dead off, and so completely wrong as to be downright ludicrous, I would hope that the sitter would inform me of this with sincerity and kindness, and not have the lack of grace to blast me with harsh criticism. (Even if it had the nerve to run about attempting to masquerade as 'honesty".) I do offer a money back guarantee, and they certainly wouldn't lose a dime. I've been fortunate in this regard, but I know that every time I read for someone new, there's a chance that what they get won't be what they want, expect, or they will be in some way dissatisfied. I think this is a risk all readers take, and it's a good thing to be prepared for this, mentally. We can't make all of the people happy, all of the time, no matter how much we love what we do. One of the most essential lessons I ever learned from my HP, was to examine my motives, and keep an open mind. Not just magical motives, but for virtually anything I did, or said. And I found out that many times, I was indeed coming from a position of pure egotism, instead of loving service. I wasn't being kind to anyone, no matter what I was claiming, it was really all about me, and that was a real drag for other people who had to suffer being around me, until I learned how to treat people better. In magic, in music, in life. What she taught me made so much sense, and when I'm able to successfully do it, it makes clear to me whether this doubt is coming from fear, and insecurity in my own head, or actually a crisis of conscience which is making it's presence known by taking the form of doubt. Knowing the difference actually helps me deal with it.

lark	20 May 2005
I had a long conversation at the fair where I work with some of the other readers about this very subject. Untill you have sat down one on one with a live person facing you to give a reading you can not understand the awesome responsibility that you have taken on. Some readers can't take it and don't continue public readings. They come into this work wanting to be special and elevated above the rest of humanity. They may fool themselves and say they want to help others, but what they really want is to help their own self worth. They aren't going to get it. Once they have a paralyzed boy sitting in front of them asking if he'll ever walk again. Or a mom with cancer who is afraid to die and leave her kids. Or a young private in the army who wants to know if he'll die in the war. The magnitude of what they are doing kicks in and for the ones that are there for the self glory it is too much. Then there are others like yourself Aoife. Who have worked beyond this.... Yet still question weather the exchange of energy is worth it... And who am I to be dispensing this kind of advice? Do I want the responsibility of it all? I have to say I would rather go to reader like you, who knows and has a cautious respect for the balance of power. Than one that is so certain they have all the answers and knows what's best for me. So what is the answer? Why do some stay in this? I have come to my own understanding of it. **It's not about me. When I read I connect with the Divine outside of myself. And that is where the information comes from. When I came to understand this it was so sublime and such a relief, but also a crushing ego downer... :D I am a conduit for the reading to be brought through. Yes, I have the responsibility of getting the symbols right and the information out in an understandable, kind, compassionate way. But it is not my cleverness, knowledge, or experience that I'm using. I am letting the Divine balance the power. I could not read any other way because the debilitating self doubt would take over. I find my comfort of certainty in knowing that the Divine has the best possible motives. And does nothing out of vain self glory, mistaken motives or perceptions. If I stay true to this belief I stay balanced. But it is always a 2 of Pentacles balancing act. Because at the end of the day I'm only human. But I know the readings I feel the most comfortable with are the ones where I have let go of self and let the universe take over. I know that my way of reading could be picked apart by those who run on logic. But I have been honest and truthful in explaining how I read. I am not special. Anyone can connect with the Divine and get their own answers. That they don't and come to me instead ...well there are a million reasons for that. But I'm not there to question why. By sitting at that table and offering myself as that conduit I give up the right to judge in anyway. I have offered.

MercyMe	20 May 2005
I doubt certitude. :) I tried for a while to see things as this way or that way, that's the end of it. Couldn't do it. There are just too many variables, too many what if's. Chaos has its way. Doubt is my friend, too. It causes me to look deeper, think harder, try for more clarity. Sometimes it releases me to freedom saying, "Come what may!" I know when someone is an honest person when they can look me straight in the eye and say, "Gee...I just don't know." Debilitating doubt is another thing entirely, though, and I think it has its roots in needing certainty in order to function. When one who needs the safety net of certitude is cast into a sea of doubt, she has nothing to cling to and she doubts even her own ability to swim, well...she will cry out. Help! And someone comes and gives her something solid, a life preserver, a raft, something tangible she knows will float. Certitude. When I have been debilitated by doubt, it has helped to find one thing I know that works, that I am certain of. From that position of relative safety, I can then explore the doubts that plague me without being entirely debilitated by them. I've plunged into those doubtful waters of my own accord when I have felt certain of my abilities to navigate the tides. See, we need to be certain of something, anything, in order to move through doubt. ~Mercy

Mesara	20 May 2005
Doubt.. I wear it as a shawl these days. Really, it is a consistent and pressing weight on my shoulders everytime I take my cards out and take my seat across the table from the expectant querant. I am ashamed to say this is a new feeling for me. In all my eleven years of reading tarot for others, I have never once questioned what I am doing and how I am doing it.. until now. I started reading tarot for others very young- when I was fifteen. And rather accidentally at that. It was never something I set out to do, it just sorta happened. Now I know a lot of members here have started much younger.. and I mean no disrespect..but in my opinion, there aren't a lot of fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, and even eighteen year olds who can really grasp the intricacies of human nature that are illustrated in the tarot. I admit I did not quite understand and appreciate what I was working with.. but I got set into a routine of reading.. answering the love, money, fame and fortune questions as deftly and with as much finesse as the fat guy with the oiled mushache at the carnival... "Step right up..throw the ball to get the prize!" He is fast and furious in his work, it is all about efficency... "Oh, too bad! You missed! NEXT!" And off he goes to *service* the next person, and on and on through the line he continues, until it's time to pack up and move on to the next town... His confidence never wavers, he never stops to think about the people that leave his booth, it's all about entertainment.. no harm was ever done in the spirit of entertainment, right? Or so he thinks.. Routines are dangerous, because they make us too comfortable, too smug, too confident.. "Ive done this a million times".. I wince when I think back on how often Ive said that in the past... Routines enclose us in a sphere of protection.. protection from the unfamiliar, the unknown, the doubt . Living too long in such a sphere is dangerous.. one can never grow.. just like the goldfish and the fishbowl. Thank god I allowed myself some time to think about my approach, my style, my interactions with people and how I could change some things to improve.. Because my tarot readings were just about to get way more interesting.. LIke my first new client here, who has self-destructive tendencies all based on her past history of sexual abuse.. Or another new client, whose brother's recent death has taken his family through hell and back.. This is where the doubt set in...it was uncomfortable, it made me squirm, but it also made me realize the gravity of what I was doing.. A big wake up call these two have been for me.. and I wear my shawl of doubt to the table now everytime I read..because the fear is very real.. that I can mess things up, that I can end up doing more damage than healing.. that they are trusting me with their lives.. I think the grand entrance of doubt signifies growth as a reader.. A *coming of age* gift as opposed to a hinderance. And I agree Aofie, that we should embrace this gift, allow it to check us now and then when we start to feel exalted, invincible...foolproof.

Moonbow*	20 May 2005
Oh my, I wish I could write like you Aoife. How do you make it so understandable and so intelligent...... all in one post! I think we learn by our doubts, but only if we recognise them and are brave enough to acknowledge them. You are right that it's a bit like anger, because to doubt is to not be fully happy with ourselves... and no one likes that. When we start to doubt ourselves and our ability in one thing, I beleive that it can cascade into many aspects that we find difficult. But... recognising that we have doubts and having the guts to continue and learn can turn things around and make us better at many things. Don't you find that you learn most by your mistakes? If everything you do turns out right, then boredom and complacence set in. Therefore having doubts when reading Tarot is perfectly healthy to me, it helps us to make sure we are doing the very best we can and to focus on the querent totally. Yeah, doubt is good.

Moongold	21 May 2005
Aoife ~ Do you think there are degrees of doubt, and all shades of it as well? I do and I think the distinction matters. Doubt can occur at the core of a person’s sense of self and paralyze her altogether. Or it can be less disabling thing, possibly overcome by different means. Faith, good intentions and competence alongside a realistic self-awareness can make doubt manageable or even over come it altogether. You mention an interest in exploring the terrain of doubt rather than severing the connection. If you have a choice in that, then well and good. You would need to say a lot more about what that means to you and what boundaries you put around that before I would even attempt to comment. You question the appropriateness of those who go into any kind of unequal relationship without some level of doubt and uncertainty and suggest that to do might in fact be dangerous. I think it would depend on the nature of the doubt. That is critical and would require exploration. I would not want to enter a therapeutic relationship with someone who was badly affected by doubt. But I would be happy working with someone who was curious , flexible and open to possibilities. I would want my therapist to have a strong sense of confidence in herself. I only mention the “therapeutic” relationship because that is the best example I can come up with right now that fits what you seem to imply. If you are referring to Tarot, then perhaps it depends on the nature of the reading. I posted a comment about what I value in Readers somewhere else in this forum, and those principles are also the ones by which I try to work. If I work with love, mutuality, competence and respect, I should not be dangerous. I should not do any harm. Sometimes I might have doubt if I am not well, or if I’m disturbed about something, and then I would not read. Curiosity and partnership with the Querent can perhaps replace any doubt, provided those other simple safeguards are in place. And the reading would be a process of mutual giving and receiving. If I stretch beyond my means and try Tarot therapy when I am not a therapist, then I'd be consumed with doubt. I would not do it.

Aoife	22 May 2005
tmgrl2 wrote: debilitating doubt isn't with me so much these days as sometimes debilitating...need to KNOW outcomes... To control outcomes... Tarot cards aside, I absolutely identify with this! But when I have a burning need to KNOW, the last thing I do is consult the cards. I have to keep tarot as a tool for introspection - to enter into the realms of divination is not for me. I do though deeply respect those with the talent and courage to seek connection with the divine. As for seekers who are wedded to externally-inspired outcomes, they’re unlikely to come to me. I make it clear before I agree to enter into the process that it is they who will do the reading... that my role is to facilitate. Its never yet happened, but it would be fascinating to encounter a seeker who in the process connects with the divine. tmgrl2 wrote: ... when I am anxious and uncertain....and sad (since for me when I am angry, there is usually a large bolus of sadness trying to bubble up to the surface)...I feel that these are the times I am open to learning the most. Yesss! But I do so wish this process was also available from my comfort zone. tmgrl2 wrote: And I do believe that we are, as we interact from the heart, from our own feelings of ....love, doubt, uncertainty, anxiety, anger.... both teaching and learning...I think we continue to teach what we need to learn and we learn from those we interact with, when we come to them from a place of honesty of spirit. True for Tarot and has been true for me in my own work. I often shared in with families of children, e.g., my own battles since I was little with phobias and depression...and how I have travelled my road....many of my peers said "You told them WHAT?!!" I don't regret sharing honestly where I have been and what I have learned and what I am still learning. We all travel together, albeit, it feels lonely at times. I’ve got very mixed feelings about the degree to which I involve ‘me’ in readings. I try to be guided by the seeker. But maintaining a balance between distance and sharing is ongoing. I want to share as much as needed to establish empathy, but I’m not convinced that my experiences necessarily help anyone else to understand their own. Perhaps its my nature to prefer a more neutral or reserved position, but I do think it helps me stay focused on their issues and to be able to broach the less than comfortable areas. I also think it brings the seeker in closer connection with the cards... which is what I’m always hoping to do. tmgrl2 wrote: I haven't been doing live readings lately since I have been in a place of DOUBT About whether or not I should even be reading The Tarot for another person. I am moving along with these feelings. I do identify with what you are saying and I sense we are not going to be rid of these doubts and uncertainties and angers and fears....I guess they are the forces which help us learn there is only love and that the rest are illusions keeping us from remembering who we really are. So much has been written about fear and love and about how they cannot coexist at the same time....I do find that when I place myself in a place where I do my best with love, and not run away...that the fear goes away. But if I had to speak the honest-to-god truth at this moment, I'm not sure I should be having people come to me for readings with Tarot. This is precisely why I would come to you for a reading! All the good intentions, ‘love and light’ in the world will not make me feel safe to expose myself to something so potentially profound as a tarot reading. But when I know that the reader lives with and works through doubt... then I feel safe! Then I feel connected... and respected... and open!

Aoife	22 May 2005
Helvetica wrote: Aoife - I know you are talking tarot here - but I dare say, not strictly. Well... yes. But I was expressing my views and their connection with my approach to reading, which of course has been influenced by my background and experiences. Helvetica wrote: There is a huge price to be paid. And the more we give trying to be "spot-on" (spot-on tarot reader, spot-on friend, spot-on humanitarian, spot-on social worker, spot-on therapist, spot-on aunt, spot-on lover, spot-on human being), the higher the price. Why is that? Isn't virtue its own reward? Isn't that what we are taught? And we all know that not giving is even worse. Yup *wince. I think my ingrained Protestant work ethic has to get a look-in, no matter how much I smack its snout. Helvetica wrote: What if we find out that we are giving - but all wrong? That we are giving while holding back, or giving while hoping to change the outcome, or somehow change something over which we have no real influence? What if, in giving, we are really trying to become powerful? Precisely! But its only by exploring these issues... confronting these doubts, that we reduce the risk of doing harm. Helvetica wrote: I read all kinds of good - right! - sentiments on this forum about care and putting querents first, and not judging and being open, etc. etc. And I think - I'm simply not up to it. I'm only human. I'll mix my sticks sometimes, my metaphors often. Sometimes the cards will be wrong for me - or me for them. Sometimes I'll project. Sometimes I'll give in and advise the guy to bloody well forget the bitch. Sometimes I'll want to see some change, hear some change, or see some gratitude, relief and joy on the face of my querent. Because all that is power. Food. I can’t separate what’s said here from the person saying it. Because I know that you bring tremendous insight, integrity, altruism, intellect, warmth and humour to all your endeavours... and because I’m sure that you have a positive relationship with Doubt... Damn... that sounds so patronising. What I’ve been struggling to say throughout [on this thread and others before] is that good intent and love are just not enough! Precisely because we are human, we cannot rest back on our laurels and say that because we’ve studied, because we’re open to learning, because we’re motivated by good intent and love, that’s the best we can do to avoid causing harm. Doubt.... anger... fear.... are our helpers. A long while ago I talked about the need to help sexually abused kids to re-establish their relationship with fear. That’s an extreme example, but for most of us our relationship with nasty-unwanted-emotional-alerts has been skewed to some degree. We’re in danger of losing sight of their value. And unless we’ve explored them [beyond experiencing them], what are we going to do when confronted with a seeker close to the edge? Love and light just won’t do it. We have to get deep down into the mire with them - safe in the knowledge that because we understand the terrain, we can connect with them... clasp hands and draw them back from the precipice. Whoah... this is getting deep.... Of course the vast majority of seekers are nowhere close to the edge. Worse still, some make a habit of dancing close by the edge in a bid to grab attention. And for those, a ‘wake up and smell the coffee’ response is entirely appropriate in my book. Still others are looking for easy answers, and I’ve taken my pleasure in the past from leaving them high and dry, with the ball firmly back in their court. [oooo.. sorreee... i just can’t resist making soup from my metaphors]. Helvetica wrote: It passes. I relax. I think - here are a few cards, a reading I give is a conversation that might change a querent or float off in the wind - like any other conversation. Maybe a word from it will remain. That's not so bad. Not quite virtue, but a scratching start I love it!

Aoife	22 May 2005
DarkElectric, thank you!!!!! Fantastic post! It should be required reading for all readers... new and old.

Aoife	22 May 2005
Lark wrote: Untill you have sat down one on one with a live person facing you to give a reading you can not understand the awesome responsibility that you have taken on. Some readers can't take it and don't continue public readings. They come into this work wanting to be special and elevated above the rest of humanity. They may fool themselves and say they want to help others, but what they really want is to help their own self worth. They aren't going to get it. Once they have a paralyzed boy sitting in front of them asking if he'll ever walk again. Or a mom with cancer who is afraid to die and leave her kids. Or a young private in the army who wants to know if he'll die in the war. The magnitude of what they are doing kicks in and for the ones that are there for the self glory it is too much. Lark, I’m humbled by your wisdom. Lark wrote: So what is the answer? Why do some stay in this? I have come to my own understanding of it. **It's not about me. When I read I connect with the Divine outside of myself. And that is where the information comes from. When I came to understand this it was so sublime and such a relief, but also a crushing ego downer... I am a conduit for the reading to be brought through. Yes, I have the responsibility of getting the symbols right and the information out in an understandable, kind, compassionate way. But it is not my cleverness, knowledge, or experience that I'm using. I am letting the Divine balance the power. I could not read any other way because the debilitating self doubt would take over. I find my comfort of certainty in knowing that the Divine has the best possible motives. And does nothing out of vain self glory, mistaken motives or perceptions. If I stay true to this belief I stay balanced. But it is always a 2 of Pentacles balancing act. Because at the end of the day I'm only human. But I know the readings I feel the most comfortable with are the ones where I have let go of self and let the universe take over. I know that my way of reading could be picked apart by those who run on logic. But I have been honest and truthful in explaining how I read. I suspect lark, that you and I are on opposite ends of the tarot-reading spectrum. From my end, I gaze in awe and deepest respect at your end... at the work you do. lark wrote: I am not special. Oh yes you are. Very special indeed. lark wrote: Anyone can connect with the Divine and get their own answers. This is where, for the moment, we part company. Perhaps its a phase of doubt I’m going through, lol... but I’m just not sure this is open to everyone.

Aoife	22 May 2005
MercyMe wrote: I doubt certitude. I tried for a while to see things as this way or that way, that's the end of it. Couldn't do it. There are just too many variables, too many what if's. Chaos has its way. Doubt is my friend, too. It causes me to look deeper, think harder, try for more clarity. Sometimes it releases me to freedom saying, "Come what may!" I know when someone is an honest person when they can look me straight in the eye and say, "Gee...I just don't know." I entirely agree! MercyMe wrote: Debilitating doubt is another thing entirely, though, and I think it has its roots in needing certainty in order to function. When one who needs the safety net of certitude is cast into a sea of doubt, she has nothing to cling to and she doubts even her own ability to swim, well...she will cry out. Help! And someone comes and gives her something solid, a life preserver, a raft, something tangible she knows will float. Certitude. When I have been debilitated by doubt, it has helped to find one thing I know that works, that I am certain of. From that position of relative safety, I can then explore the doubts that plague me without being entirely debilitated by them. I've plunged into those doubtful waters of my own accord when I have felt certain of my abilities to navigate the tides. See, we need to be certain of something, anything, in order to move through doubt. Brilliant stuff! I’ve tended to think in terms of faith and signposts when immersed in doubt. Faith that I will find the signposts, lol. But yes... I need to look again at the concept and value of Certitude. Thank you!

Aoife	22 May 2005
Mesara wrote: Doubt.. I wear it as a shawl these days. Really, it is a consistent and pressing weight on my shoulders everytime I take my cards out and take my seat across the table from the expectant querant. I am ashamed to say this is a new feeling for me. In all my eleven years of reading tarot for others, I have never once questioned what I am doing and how I am doing it.. until now. I started reading tarot for others very young- when I was fifteen. And rather accidentally at that. It was never something I set out to do, it just sorta happened. Now I know a lot of members here have started much younger.. and I mean no disrespect..but in my opinion, there aren't a lot of fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, and even eighteen year olds who can really grasp the intricacies of human nature that are illustrated in the tarot. I admit I did not quite understand and appreciate what I was working with.. but I got set into a routine of reading.. answering the love, money, fame and fortune questions as deftly and with as much finesse as the fat guy with the oiled mushache at the carnival... "Step right up..throw the ball to get the prize!" He is fast and furious in his work, it is all about efficency... "Oh, too bad! You missed! NEXT!" And off he goes to *service* the next person, and on and on through the line he continues, until it's time to pack up and move on to the next town... His confidence never wavers, he never stops to think about the people that leave his booth, it's all about entertainment.. no harm was ever done in the spirit of entertainment, right? Or so he thinks.. Routines are dangerous, because they make us too comfortable, too smug, too confident.. "Ive done this a million times".. I wince when I think back on how often Ive said that in the past... Routines enclose us in a sphere of protection.. protection from the unfamiliar, the unknown, the doubt . Living too long in such a sphere is dangerous.. one can never grow.. just like the goldfish and the fishbowl. Thank god I allowed myself some time to think about my approach, my style, my interactions with people and how I could change some things to improve.. Because my tarot readings were just about to get way more interesting.. LIke my first new client here, who has self-destructive tendencies all based on her past history of sexual abuse.. Or another new client, whose brother's recent death has taken his family through hell and back.. This is where the doubt set in...it was uncomfortable, it made me squirm, but it also made me realize the gravity of what I was doing.. A big wake up call these two have been for me.. and I wear my shawl of doubt to the table now everytime I read..because the fear is very real.. that I can mess things up, that I can end up doing more damage than healing.. that they are trusting me with their lives.. I think the grand entrance of doubt signifies growth as a reader.. A *coming of age* gift as opposed to a hinderance. And I agree Aofie, that we should embrace this gift, allow it to check us now and then when we start to feel exalted, invincible...foolproof. This is wonderful Mesara, thank you! Ought to be another sticky! I think the issue of age... maturity and experience, is a fascinating one. And one that I’ve never really been able to take a firm position on. Its obviously true that there are some 50 year-olds lacking in maturity and some teens with wisdom way beyond their years. There are some who find a way through terrible experiences but somehow never retain, or maybe lose awareness or trust in lessons learned.... and I suspect these feature quite heavily in the lists of repeat clients. I think though, that those who trouble me most are the people who gain a degree of experience and expertise then stop. Precisely to the dangers of routine you describe. Those who kid themselves that they have developed the knack, that they are continuing to grow through theoretical learning.... but have stopped questioning themselves. Anything outside of their world view is perceived as an unwarranted challenge. Much as I would prefer it not to be true.... hard though it is for me to do... I do see the need to remain humble and welcoming of change. And forgiving of myself when, despite my best efforts, I screw up... over and over again. I don’t think its possible to ensure that as readers we do no harm. But I do think, if we’re prepared to read for people we must be willing to explore way beyond our comfort zone. Mesara, your clients are exceedingly privileged to have you as their reader.

Aoife	22 May 2005
Moonbow* wrote: You are right that it's a bit like anger, because to doubt is to not be fully happy with ourselves... and no one likes that. When we start to doubt ourselves and our ability in one thing, I beleive that it can cascade into many aspects that we find difficult. But... recognising that we have doubts and having the guts to continue and learn can turn things around and make us better at many things. I entirely agree! I know precisely what you mean about cascading.... be it doubt, anger, fear - or all of them together, like a series of dominoes, each setting off another. I think its one of the reasons why we get anxious about exploring doubt, for fear that it could set off other iffy feelings. Moonbow* wrote: Don't you find that you learn most by your mistakes? If everything you do turns out right, then boredom and complacence set in. Therefore having doubts when reading Tarot is perfectly healthy to me, it helps us to make sure we are doing the very best we can and to focus on the querent totally. Oh yesss.... but doesn’t it drive you mad? Why do the best lessons always leave me with grazed knees? Why do I always have to trip over my own smugness? Moonbow* wrote: Yeah, doubt is good. Yup. I just wish it wasn’t such a hard taskmaster.

Aoife	22 May 2005
Moongold wrote: Do you think there are degrees of doubt, and all shades of it as well? I do and I think the distinction matters. Doubt can occur at the core of a person’s sense of self and paralyze her altogether. Or it can be less disabling thing, possibly overcome by different means. Faith, good intentions and competence alongside a realistic self-awareness can make doubt manageable or even over come it altogether. Oh yes, and I agree with all you say... other than whether it is possible - or maybe even healthy - to overcome it altogether. As I’ve said elsewhere, I do think its worth exploring the value of Doubt. Moongold wrote: You mention an interest in exploring the terrain of doubt rather than severing the connection. If you have a choice in that, then well and good. You would need to say a lot more about what that means to you and what boundaries you put around that before I would even attempt to comment. I think, providing someone is not beset by dire circumstance or profound personal difficulty, that all of us have the choice whether or not to explore the benefits of doubt. I’m not sure this is the right arena to discuss the intricacies of my dealings with Doubt. I think the detail may be specific to the person, but the concept is well recognised by most if not all. Moongold wrote: You question the appropriateness of those who go into any kind of unequal relationship without some level of doubt and uncertainty and suggest that to do might in fact be dangerous. I think it would depend on the nature of the doubt. That is critical and would require exploration. I would not want to enter a therapeutic relationship with someone who was badly affected by doubt. But I would be happy working with someone who was curious , flexible and open to possibilities. I would want my therapist to have a strong sense of confidence in herself. I only mention the “therapeutic” relationship because that is the best example I can come up with right now that fits what you seem to imply. It depends what you mean by ‘badly affected’. If they were actively exploring their doubt - better still if they were open about it - I would tend to have increased confidence in them. Conversely, anyone tells me that they have overcome all doubts, they would have me running for the exit. For me, a pre-requisite of a strong sense of confidence in self, is the willingness to allow, explore, and negotiate doubt. Moongold wrote: If you are referring to Tarot, then perhaps it depends on the nature of the reading. I posted a comment about what I value in Readers somewhere else in this forum, and those principles are also the ones by which I try to work. If I work with love, mutuality, competence and respect, I should not be dangerous. I should not do any harm. Sometimes I might have doubt if I am not well, or if I’m disturbed about something, and then I would not read. Curiosity and partnership with the Querent can perhaps replace any doubt, provided those other simple safeguards are in place. And the reading would be a process of mutual giving and receiving. Yes, lol... I’m aware that my background creeps into my language. And it has indeed shaped my approach to the reading process. But yes, I was referring to tarot. Indeed, I agree that if you work with the characteristics you describe, the likelihood of causing harm should be almost non-existent. They are, as you say, necessary safeguards. But for those who encounter clients close to the edge, as others here have described, curiosity and partnership... and coming from a base of love, mutuality and respect may not be enough. I’m not sure what ‘competence’ is in relation to tarot... but I suspect that to achieve it requires experience with one’s personal terrain of doubt and fear if one is to truly be competent to help the seeker. Moongold wrote: If I stretch beyond my means and try Tarot therapy when I am not a therapist, then I'd be consumed with doubt. I would not do it. Indeed. We obviously find with experience, the style of reading to which we are best suited. I have not tried tarot therapy, but I suspect its an area I may be drawn to in the future.

lark	22 May 2005
Quote: This is where, for the moment, we part company. Perhaps its a phase of doubt I’m going through, lol... but I’m just not sure this is open to everyone. The Divine is always open to us dear Aoife. It's just that we are never invited to come in. We must enter out of freewill and a willingness to be of use to mankind. Where ever that leads us. I can tell by the way you write you are already connected. You just haven't let go of the door knob yet. Not sure if you want to come in or go back out. Just by asking this question you've taken another step in. You have knocked. There is a beautiful verse from Luke 11:9-10 that sums this up so well. For anyone who asks recieves; he who seeks finds; and he who knocks the door will be open to them.

tmgrl2	22 May 2005
This is such a wonderful thread, Aoife...I really don't believe we can revisit these thoughts too often...especially since I also believe that we grow and evolve over time. As time passes for me and as I continue down the path of giving readings to live sitters, I know that I am learning more and more as I go. Just a few comments since I reread your responses and the other posts again. As I said in firemaiden's thread earlier this week, after jmd posted something to the effect that a reading is a "moment in time" not an ongoing relationship with a counselor or therapist and that we are not delivering therapy but hoping that a seed is planted that may grow...about possibilities. That was an especially important point for me, since my life's work has involved extended relationships with families and clients, so I am usually around for a very long process of rehabilitation. Somehow, that was getting mixed up for me with the fact that many of my sitters come to me for a single reading. Yes, some I know and some will give me feedback later and come back for another reading...and/or tell me how a "seed" that came from the reading was helpful. But it is important to remember that this is a moment in time. And that our sitters come to us with often some powerful desires to have guidance about some serious issues. I agree with you. Dark Electric...marvelous post....I could identify with so much of it.... about doubt.....being there..."back of mind, further forward, always present." Also, I sincerely love reading for people. Since I retired, I really believe that my "work" in my final years, will include Tarot, perhaps some other areas of guidance as well. Feedback still offers me some guidance as well. I consider the interaction that goes on DURING the reading as the best kind....certainly, that which comes later and sometimes days or weeks later as well, at least confirms that perhaps a "seed" was planted or some action taken that moved our sitter forward in some area. Helvetica....I love your words: "here are a few cards, a reading I give is a conversation that might change a querent or float off in the wind- like any other conversation. Myabe a word from it will remain. ......a scratching start." There's the "seed" again. Lark....Your whole post was so touching...and gave me great hope. I have printed it out (along with rest of thread) to reread. "It's not about me," you said....and that says it. Also, you bring the Divine into our topic. Faith takes up where reason, logic and doubt leave off....There is no thread that connects them. Faith is Divine. It is belief in something that isn't quantifiable, logical. Faith is belief as you say "in knowing that the Divine has the best possible motives." Reading for oneself? I do that more and more often. I do believe that if we sit quietly and connect with the Divine, all of what we need to know is within, since we are connected at all times to the Divine. MercyMe, I like your words saying that you "find one thing I know that works....." and then, "from that position of relative safety....then explore the doubts...without being entirely debilitated by them." Mesara...routines...yes, they can make us too smug, too confident....I hope that I can keep the "freshness" of each reading by remembering the purpose. Moonbow....what stuck with me from your posts, is your comment about learing from our mistakes...we all say this and know this, but need to remember that we will be making some mistakes, if we do anything in life. We can't err in something if we don't do the thing. To err is human, but to learn from our mistakes...is why we are here. Moongold....again...yes...we are not in this to "try Tarot therapy." Simply put, but truthful. We tap into the universal truths represented by 78 images and hopefully allow the Divine to enter into the relationship. I wanted to comment on pieces of each post that were especially helpful to me, so that I can print this out too, to reread.... Aoife, thank you for starting this discussion. I also agree with you about being careful as to extent we "inject" ourselves and examples from our lives into the reading. This is a balance I work on constantly..... terri

Moongold	22 May 2005
Thanks for your reply, Aoife ~ It is a thought provoking topic. Some people may have walked through the fields of darkness and doubt and, indeed, may have spent quite a lot of time there. That time may not really seem like an exploration but a struggle. Words can't glamorize it. When, for whatever reason, faith comes, exploration becomes possible, and that exploration becomes one of hope. Perhaps doubt is the shadow of hope, but the exploration has to be of hope. Hope is the gift that leads to recovery - to faith. And faith, with humility, makes most things possible. I was going to say that perhaps it is a matter of perspective, but it is not really. It is a matter of experience. I believe that sooner or later one must be prepared to engage hope and faith and to explore the possibilities within. That willingness and experience is what I seek in others and what I what I want to see in a Tarot reader. Perhaps it s simply that the exploration of doubt precedes the exploration of hope. I don't wish that to sound patronizing either..... but I am quite a lot older than you, I suspect. I know doubt and darkness too well and have learned enough from them. There is a saying which applies to both of us, and to everyone here: This thing we tell of can never be found by seeking, yet only seekers find it. abu Yazid al-Bistami For me, those things we seek are faith and hope, inevitably followed by growth. I do wish you well and thank you once more. There is no right or wrong here. Just different experiences. It may simply be that we never do Tarot readings for one another again :).

tmgrl2	22 May 2005
Perhaps doubt does precede hope...but it also follows sometimes on the heels of hope... The Wheel goes round and round and hopefully with each revolution we stay shorter and shorter periods of time in the doubts, fears and angers and longer in the hopes and loves....more centered. As long as I am on this plane, I suspect, however, that I will continually be learning about love and hope by facing my doubts and fears. terri

Moonbow*	22 May 2005
I think we should all remember also, that without having doubt we don't move forward, we face a brick wall and won't go any further, we stagnate. Doubt makes us inquisitive and forces us to push ourselves a little harder and therefore to become more knowledgeable and ultimately experienced. Pushing doubt to it's limits helps us to overcome fears and gives us a firm footing again, it helps us to grow. Reading through this thread I know that I can relate, in my own life, to much of what is written here, which is why this topic is important. We all have doubt..... show me a man who doesn't. It's how we let it affect us and whether we learn from it that is important.

Moongold	22 May 2005
Perhaps people simply process doubt differently. It depends on the nature of the issue and one's understanding of doubt. I am not sure what Aoife and others really means by doubt and certainty, even reading back through the thread. I am not sure that we are all speaking of the same thing. Surely doubt requires an object, something to be doubted. It is not useful to speak of the terrain of doubt without being more specific. Do you doubt your ability to read the cards? Your ability to understand the Querent? Do you doubt the process? What do you doubt? Is doubt one of your daily rituals without any real meaning? Has this simply been a rhetorical conversation? And it is possible to have both doubt and faith at the same time. This perhaps encapsulates the ambiguity of the doubt/faith conundrum. "I believe. Help my unbelief." Mark 9:24

The On debilitating doubt and the comfort of certainty thread was originally posted on 20 May 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.