Pain on a....

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 26 May 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

jumptothemoonyea	26 May 2005
In one of the parallel threads, bladeraven kindly exclaims: Quote: Tarot CANNOT decide about matters regarding divorce or abuse.....if someone is going to depend on a deck...then they should consider calling a therapist instead.... This is true, but the subject I would like to address here is relationship between pain and Tarot. What role does pain play in Tarot? Is Tarot just an indifferent observer? Or is it a burner of emotions? An entertainer and adviser or/and a real life pain reliever? Could somebody in pain find a real help in relationship with Tarot? If yes, how? Could it be that with tarot we are breaking into invisible layers of the pain, no licensed :D therapist can discern? Thank you.

Ace	26 May 2005
Tarot can help you see the truth. It can't lie. But that is not a replacement for counseling, merely an adjunct. If there are beliefs you won't let go of, problems you won't face, the tarot can't make you change. It can however, help point the way. Some people read the cards over and over, looking for a different answer than the one the cards will give them. (I did this during a bad breakup.) At that point, a person maybe should see a counselor instead, since the reality the cards are pointing too is not one they will accept. But it is what IS there and not accepting reality is a sign they need counseling. Ace

WalesWoman	27 May 2005
I think from personal experience Tarot has helped me look within and identify the areas where pain had stunted my emotional growth and shown me ways to deal with it, to understand better my coping and avoidance mechanisms. It has pointed to painful touchy spots that I haven't wanted to admit to or look at because it may have threatened my sense of security and realize that most of the things I am most fearful of have no real base except from my own expecatations. Now when it comes to violent abusive relationships, counselling is definately a priority. Tarot could help the person identify areas they need to address, but not be a substitute for the help and support of trained counsellors and support groups. Tarot can't give you the help one needs to get away from an abuser and into a safe environment or find jobs and create a new life, but it can help point out what to look for. It won't lovingly get in your face and say, if you don't get out now, there may not be a next time. Maybe I am totally misunderstanding this question. Tarot does not feel for us or feel with us, I'm not sure how it happens but it will indicate what we are feeling, what we are likely to do and what would be the best advice for us to act on. It shows us where our pain is coming from, why it hurts and how to work our way through it and go beyond it. It can't take it away from us, but the answers it gives may give us comfort and hope and reinforce our belief that we can survive and have a life. If using Tarot reduced pain... many of the readers here would think they had reached Nirvana. I think it would be more of a psychosomatic phenomenon, the power of belief to overcome the emotional perceptions of physical pain. Just as anticipation of pain is often much, much worse than the actual experience of it... so much is what we expect to feel more so than what we really do feel. I think it would also depend on the suggestibility of the person, the more suggestable a person is the more likely that if they believed that a particular card would make them feel better, then if they drew that card they would be relieved and might experience a sense of well being. Just about the same way drawing 3 Swords, 10 Swords, the Tower or Death to many, will immediately feel a sinking dread sensation or even nausea, especially if they are fearing some change that threatens them and drawing those cards seems to confirm it. The message is usually much deeper and broader than that and doesn't always spell the end, but the experience of things not living up to our expectations, the need to examine where this comes from and that it is insupportable and must change in order for things to improve. If that was the case this relationship would have fallen apart long ago if I had acted on the traditional meanings, rather than digging deeper into what makes our relationship tick and twitch as individuals and what we needed to make it work, gave up and crawled under a rock in despair. So that is what is great about this forum and asking for second opinions on the cards that bother us... learning from others and gaining new perceptions and ways to interpret the cards. It's told me the problem areas, what to do or not to do, what to change or leave alone, but it can't take the pain away, or do the work for us... only we can do that and only if we both want it to be good together. It takes two. Tarot, in my belief, has only the power you give it.

mythos	27 May 2005
Ace wrote: Tarot can help you see the truth. It can't lie. Ace True, but we can misinterpret what we see, especially when we are emotionally involved in an issue ... and more so, if we are unconscious of our own issues related to a querent's question. As as ex-social worker and psychologist by profession, I see tarot as a wonderful tool, but I worry as well, that is can be misused with perfectly natural ignorance of the issues that clients might bring to us, if we lack the kind of knowledge won through years of study and practice. This is not to say that it is essential to have the pieces of paper, but I think that it is important to make an effort to reach beyond our personal experience into areas of study that enhance our knowledge of human behaviour. We need to be able to recognise when a person needs a referral to an appropriate agency, and we need to have a working knowledge of those agencies, their eligibility criteria and so on, and the best way to refer so that the person takes up the referral. For me, as someone who, like all people, had their hotspots that needed addressing, I have found tarot an invaluable means of digging past my own defenses. Using it as a professional, as I did occasionally, before I retired, I found it equally invaluable in helping ME see past resistances and into hidden issues - both my clients and my own - which so often were synchronistically-connected. I would be loathe to read tarot for anyone without drawing upon my knowledge and experience of my 'other' professions. I remember being at a 'New Age Fair' doing readings. A women next to me was a very experienced astrologer, but I cringed often as I heard her 'counselling' her clients. So many opinions and myths about family relationships, individual issues, psychological states were just plain rubbish. And, what worried me most was the fact that her clients sat there entranced by her 'advice' ... seeing her as all-knowing. If you learn nothing else in either psych, social work or tarot and astrology, it needs to be that we are highly fallible beings who have a huge capacity to do harm, even with the best intentions to help, in the world. We need to recognise that our clients see us as experts who know it all. We don't and never will. We need to take such care not to influence others when using a tool which is highly open to being used as a tool for influence. The old saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions' is so true, and particularly problematic when we might, with a profound desire to be of help, be paving someone else's road to hell. mythos

gollog	27 May 2005
Lately I have found a lot of comfort in my cards, and in a way this means it relieves some emotional pain. It is not so much unkown things they tell me, but the affirmation what I know I should accept and do, but have a hard time doing and accepting. It feels like an objective person talking to me and at this moment I can really use that.

Emeraldgirl	27 May 2005
Tarot could be the catalyst for getting professional help i.e. the situation is not going to improve. A lot of people are still ashamed of seeking help in relation to divorce and abuse tarot could be a good starting outlet for them to realise the help that they require.

-=Light=-	27 May 2005
I do agree that councelling by a professional is necessary and that the querant must have that ongoing support. However as an insight from my past experience as a querant and not a reader, I will share my story. To keep it brief a few years ago my marriage was in a terrible state, my husband had some anger issues and although he never was physically abusive to me, he was very aggressive with material things, punching holes through walls, yelling and screaming at me in public and he was emotionally and mentally abusive. This stemmed from an anger problem of his which I was aware of and I had enough self esteem to know I didn't deserve it. He wasn't really like that initally but due to his father becoming terminally ill, it pushed him over the edge. I had gone to councelling myself and then begged him to go to marriage councelling with me. He went 2 times and the counceller could basically see what was going on because I was wittled down to 90 pounds from depression and stress from the trauma. He basically said unless my hubby was going to get help then it was better for me to go off on my own. This was a good solid confirmation that I wasn't crazy and I knew that I had to leave. It wasn't though until I had seen the psychic though a few months later that I actually had the strength and the courage to take action. She laid the cards out on the table without me saying a word about what was going on behind the scenes. She looked at me and said that I wasn't connected to my husband and that I haven't been in a long time. She told me that I was hurting and it was time to move on. She also though gave me something that a counceller couldn't give me. An insight to a possible future full of hope. It was the first time that someone could actually see right through me and feel what I was feeling. It was like she was peeling off my layers and looking into my soul and telling me it was ok. The reading and the ones she did for me after did more for me than any councellor could. It was the hope that could be seen that gave me the strength to make the hard descisions that I have now been able to make. Although I had better success from the tarot than I did the councelling, I do believe that a combination of the two is very necessary. A councellor can basically diagnose if there are any underyling medical, mental or emotional conditions that may need to be professionally addressed. A councellor also has more of a support network to rely on if additional attention is needed. What the tarot can do though is expose the soul and our hidden fears and desires that are even unknown to us. Tarot can give us that hope and encouragement of a promising future which is one that a councellor alone can't see but only encourage to strive for. So I would like to say that a combination of both is a great way to overcome these difficulties. I always agree to seek councelling though either first or right after a problem is uncovered by tarot. For all you tarot readers, remember that you can truly inspire and give hope to those that are temporarily lost. Don't feel that you are unable to help in these situations because words are more powerful than you can imagine. Light :)

huredriel	27 May 2005
-=Light=- wrote: What the tarot can do though is expose the soul and our hidden fears and desires that are even unknown to us. Tarot can give us that hope and encouragement of a promising future which is one that a councellor alone can't see but only encourage to strive for. So I would like to say that a combination of both is a great way to overcome these difficulties. I always agree to seek councelling though either first or right after a problem is uncovered by tarot. For all you tarot readers, remember that you can truly inspire and give hope to those that are temporarily lost. Don't feel that you are unable to help in these situations because words are more powerful than you can imagine. Very eloquent and touching Light

Moonbow*	27 May 2005
Well, I am going to disagree, for myself, if I'm in pain the last thing I would do is reach for my cards. I find it very difficult to use Tarot (for myself) for issues that involve alot of pain, I just don't think I would be objective enough (although I do read cards for myself on other issues). Pain has to be worked through, and some may find their cards help them do this, but not me. For me, it's similar to using reiki on myself. I would much rather receive it from someone else, even though I have been successful in ridding myself of headaches. The pain usually distracts my focus, I think it would be the same with Tarot too, so for that reason I don't use my cards.

Fudugazi	27 May 2005
mythos wrote: The old saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions' is so true, and particularly problematic when we might, with a profound desire to be of help, be paving someone else's road to hell. Your whole post was an excellent reminder, mythos, and humbling too. As you say, the degree in psychology is not a prerequisite, but it does presuppose some acquaintance with the human heart beyond personal experience and projection. I have met in my life some very wise people who were not psychologists and had that capacity too - albeit not couched in scientific categories and language - but these were people who had worked long and hard to get where they are, and had developed some all-important faculties - a detached sense of observation, sympathy that is not projecting of one's own pain, analysis and a good ear. Some were tarot readers, but you find people like that in all walks of life - too few of them, alas. In the days before professional counsellors, people went to see wise women, priests and GPs. In many countries it is still the case, and these people, by force, develop the capacities to deal with the human heart and, to quote you again, Mythos, "make an effort to reach beyond [...] personal experience into areas of study that enhance [their] knowledge of human behaviour". One of the wisest men I ever met was an Italian priest in Congo (he'd been there for 27 years), who had been dealing with some the very extremes of human behaviour, including group behaviour: his knowledge of his own limitations was exemplary. Great humility and knowledge of one's limitations are essential in dealing with someone else's pain, so as not to utter platitudes - or as you write, set people on the road to hell - under the guise of tarot wisdom. I spent years professionally dealing with unbearable human pain, but I am not a licenced psychologist, and I never forgot I knew very little, I had to be guided by intuition and the Divine (not to mention - I read a lot, and talked to many psychologists). I try and approach tarot in the same way, because people in pain will reach out for any helping hand, without discrimination: so we have to provide such discrimination ourselves. It's not easy and no doubt I am guilty of those very things I deplore! As for my personal experience with pain and tarot: tarot has helped me more than I can say in moments of great despair and/or fear. But only when I manage to calm down sufficiently to read the cards and not - as Ace put it - do repetition readings that seem only to hold me more tightly in the spiral of pain and panic. Just as I avoid alchohol when I am in a whirlwind of pain, I also avoid cards or all forms of divination, and calm myself down before I do reach for the cards. Edited to add: Light, I was touched by your story, and I think you are right - good psychics can show a path that is not full of pain, somewhere down the road. Hope, the Star card: isn't it what we all wish for when we are in pain?

Fairawen	27 May 2005
I've never been to a therapist (Lucky me! :P) so I can't exactly say what they can and can't do. But I know that the tarot sometimes makes you see the cold, unpampered truth. Do therapists do that? Oh, sure, there's nothing quite like a good one-on-one with another human being. I just feel that tarot (as one of it's many uses) can help you in ways a therapist can't. Then again, same can be said for tarot. It really depends on your situation, I think. Can tarot make you feel pain? Gee. Why do so many people cry when recieving a reading??? :P I think, instead of doing it the wrong way (in my eyes) and trying to break the truth to you gradually, it just hits you suddenly, openly, and without any regrets. It's like sudden pain, then sweet release. :) But if you don't have the moment of pain, there is no sweet release. *shrug* My two cense. ~Fairawen~

Moongold	27 May 2005
On an an individual level the cards can give us insight which can explain and give comfort and hope. This of course depends on the level of one's belief and pain. The cards can also lift one out of self. Such simple techniques such as journalling or describing a card can take one away from the self-preoccupation which sometimes accompanies pain. When receiving a reading, the engagement with another human being can be healing in itself. If the reader is skilled both at reading and engaging that can be a double blessing. There are different types of pain. The ongoing distress of darkness is particularly responsive to personal work with the Tarot. In terms of working with others, the knowledge of pain and darkness can enhance the reader's insight and compassion in her readings for others, just as the experience of light may also do this.

MercyMe	27 May 2005
I turned to tarot during a very difficult time in my life, a time of radical change, depression, and struggle. It helped tremendously. It comforted me, it helped uncover my motivations, it helped direct me, it helped to focus me. Even the act of shuffling was soothing. Tarot sometimes acts as a release. Sometimes when I am obsessing over something and it keeps turning round and round in my brain, I throw a spread and, in essence, throw the obsessive thoughts on the table. I study them, I think through them, and when the spread is cleaned up and the deck reshuffled, I find release. I was going to a therapist at the time and when she suggested I find a new interest, learn a new skill, I told her, "I'm learning tarot," she looked at me sideways and cocked her head and said, "I mean something REAL." Hmmmm....well, I never brought up tarot again with her and shortly after that ended our sessions. In many other ways she was a decent therapist, but that seemed very judgmental to me and that's just not a therapists place. I would have liked it if she had asked me what drew me to the tarot, what I found interesting, etc. So instead, I went home and asked the cards. :) ~Mercy

SunChariot	29 May 2005
jumptothemoonyea wrote: In one of the parallel threads, bladeraven kindly exclaims: This is true, but the subject I would like to address here is relationship between pain and Tarot. What role does pain play in Tarot? Is Tarot just an indifferent observer? Or is it a burner of emotions? An entertainer and adviser or/and a real life pain reliever? Could somebody in pain find a real help in relationship with Tarot? If yes, how? Could it be that with tarot we are breaking into invisible layers of the pain, no licensed :D therapist can discern? Thank you. While I would not deny that in severe emotional pain it may be best to seek professional help, Tarot can also be a healer. In my experience, yes Tarot can help you process the pain more efficiently, make you laugh, remind you you are not alone and that the universe is there caring for you....almost anything a real friend can do, Tarot can do as well. It can be anything you want it to be depending on the questions you ask. No I don't see it as an indifferent observer. There is nothing cold about it, the answers come from a universe that cares deeply about you and your happiness. We are very much a part of all that. If you are in pain and don't know how to get over it, you can ask. You can ask "What can I do to heal from this pain?", "What is the most efficient way to get past this pain and recreate the joy I am meant to have in my life?...questions like that ought to come up with some very useful answers, once you follow them. And should result in a lessening of the suffering time. You can use it to focus on what is good in your life instead of on the pain. Sometimes when you are in deep pain it is hard to think of other things. You could pull a bunch of cards to remind you of all the good, positive things you have to be grateful for it this life. As for me I believe all our life experiences happen for a reason, you can ask: "What was I meant to learn from this experience?" Which at least gives you some peace of mind, knowing that it was not just random suffering and it had a purpose. Once you learn the lesson life is trying to teach you, it is my experience that it will not have to try and teach you the same lesson again. Or, depending on the situation that caused you pain, you could work on preventing similar situations in the future, by asking "What can I do to avoid this kind of experience in my life in the future?" OR, you can see if you can reverse the situation that caused you pain. If you lost someone you love for example, you can ask why it happened, why it had to happen just then (because everythign in the universe happens for a reason and when it is meant to) and ask if there is anything you can do to change the situation, anything to get the person back. As the future is not written in stone, oftentime it is possible to change it. And in these cases Tarot can tell you what you need to do to change the outcome to the one you want. Or if you are not processing the pain well because of some mental block left over from childhood, you can ask the Tarot why you are having so much trouble dealing with it, if there is anything you can work on that can help you heal faster....then do it...:-) Oh, and yes some decks are good laughing with you and showing you humour in your life. My Faeries' Oracle is one. And laughter is a very potent healing tool. Bar

SunChariot	29 May 2005
MercyMe wrote: I turned to tarot during a very difficult time in my life, a time of radical change, depression, and struggle. It helped tremendously. It comforted me, it helped uncover my motivations, it helped direct me, it helped to focus me. Even the act of shuffling was soothing. Tarot sometimes acts as a release. Sometimes when I am obsessing over something and it keeps turning round and round in my brain, I throw a spread and, in essence, throw the obsessive thoughts on the table. I study them, I think through them, and when the spread is cleaned up and the deck reshuffled, I find release. I was going to a therapist at the time and when she suggested I find a new interest, learn a new skill, I told her, "I'm learning tarot," she looked at me sideways and cocked her head and said, "I mean something REAL." Hmmmm....well, I never brought up tarot again with her and shortly after that ended our sessions. In many other ways she was a decent therapist, but that seemed very judgmental to me and that's just not a therapists place. I would have liked it if she had asked me what drew me to the tarot, what I found interesting, etc. So instead, I went home and asked the cards. :) ~Mercy You're right, that really was judgmental, and therapists should be trained not to think in judgmental ways. Obviously she has not direct experience with Tarot, so that is a prejudice, something they should not show. I would have lost confidence at that point too. For what it's worth, I had one once who turned nuttier than a fruitcake. He started telling me that all women fall in love with their therapists and asked me if I loved him. I was a bit shocked by the question and probably looked at him strangely,but of course I said no, and he just started to scream and yell and call me names....lost my confidence at that point too (obviously)... never saw him again after that anyway...not that he helped me all that much before either. Bar

jumptothemoonyea	31 May 2005
I would like to thank all who participated in and listened to this "painful" :) discussion. The role of Tarot in the process of transformation interests me deeply. Active tarot or passive tarot? Are we just the passersby, watching other people and our own destinies through a glass or mirror display, or we are the creators? To hide the pain, pretend it is not there or open to it?

SunChariot	31 May 2005
jumptothemoonyea wrote: I would like to thank all who participated in and listened to this "painful" :) discussion. The role of Tarot in the process of transformation interests me deeply. Active tarot or passive tarot? Are we just the passersby, watching other people and our own destinies through a glass or mirror display, or we are the creators? To hide the pain, pretend it is not there or open to it? I felt like life was just happening to me until I found Tarot. Tarot is what teaches me how I am creating my life, what I want to create, and how to get there. Bar

WalesWoman	01 Jun 2005
jumptothemoon wrote: The role of Tarot in the process of transformation interests me deeply. Active tarot or passive tarot? Are we just the passersby, watching other people and our own destinies through a glass or mirror display, or we are the creators? To hide the pain, pretend it is not there or open to it? A thought, it is a choice to watch rather than participate... which leads to never fully experiencing the sorrows or joys. Safe perhaps but stunted or stagnent at best. To hide pain, to pretend it is not there is a wall that nothing can penetrate, won't help one grow beyond or learn the lessons that come from the experience. How many people are scarred and suffering from post traumatic stress simply because they hide from the pain, pretending it does not exist and then can never quite feel happy about anything, making the same mistakes over and over again. To really live, you have to be open to all the pain that may come as well as all the joy, the rewards and the frustrations otherwise one isn't really living but merely existing... and that is why I think so many people become depressed... from repressing their pain and fear of facing it. I am not wise, simply learning from experience I hope.

The Pain on a.... thread was originally posted on 26 May 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.