Reading without asking?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 09 May 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Ivy Rhiannon	09 May 2005
Ok fellow taroteers. :D I did a quick search on the subject and couldn't find what I needed. So here I am bugging you. What I need to know is this...Is reading for another without thier permission or knowlege ok? What got me thinking about it was the other day I had not heard from my friend in a while, and because I had my cards out practicing spreads, I decided to do a reading ON her. Then in the mist of shuffling a single thought came to mind...wait a sec is this right? Now I know in magic, they have the "ask before cast" rule. But is Tarot different? Is it a matter of morals, or is it not an issue at all? I mean we do readings for pets, or missing persons...or is that another matter? So what do you think? "To ask or not to ask...that is the question!" Any opinons would be greatly appresiated! Thanks in advance, Ivy

Baby Owl	09 May 2005
Personally, my ethics do not allow me to read for anyone other then the Querent or Seeker who has asked me to do a reading. However, I am sure there are tarotists who have no problem with it. It's a very personal decision. Here are a couple links that you might find helpful: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=25457&highlight=third+party+readings http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=16588&highlight=third+party+readings

Deana	09 May 2005
I don't know. How's that for a clear answer? My mom is an astrologer and she always does a chart for people she's just met or people who just got hired where she works or people her children are dating/marrying/babies being born. Is it spying? If she finds out that someone has certain aspects that cause them to seem one way when maybe they are a different way underneath, is it spying? (I've often thought it was a bad idea, as she has a tendency to say things like, "I'm not going to like this new person they just hired! I never get along with Geminis and her Aries moon is opposite my Libra sun!" and I just don't think that's a great way to start a new relationship with someone you have to work with.) But when you read astrology books or magazines, they do charts for everyone. How will the President deal with whatnot? Is it over between such-and-so celebrities? And they go into the aspects they think are relevant. At what point do the celebrity Tarot readings so many people do cross the line? I don't know. To some extent, it's similar to gossip. Asking the cards or an astrology chart is a stand-in for gossip when you don't know who to ask sometimes. Like you want to know what's been going on with a friend you haven't heard from: if you ran into someone who knows your friend you'd probably ask that person about your friend, right? Is it that much different to ask the cards, "Hey, whatever happened to so-and-so? Did they get married to that guy with the nose ring? Was she really pregnant with twins?" than to ask a mutual acquaintance you run into when you're out having coffee?

Phoenix Rising	09 May 2005
Hi Ivy I have seen a thread like this before, but can't remember off the top of my head the thread. funny you should ask this question, because just a few minutes ago I receeived an email from a lady, who i had sent a email to yesterday. she knows that I do cards and she is leaving her present job. So I wanted to send her a reading. I laid the cards out, started to type it up, and then i realised that I didn't ask her if she wanted one. so I edited the email. But just gave her a one line sentence about her daughter. anyway she sent back a email and asked me how did I know about her daughter, and I told her that I wanted to give her a reading but I hadn't asked her permission, but I know that she would be alright with it. So sent her one. Whether it's ethical or not, I have to admit that I do, do readings on others without them knowing, just to see if they are ok. Just friends and family's. And I probably will continue to do it. I'm not going to use it against them or anything. It's really just practise for me to read my cards mainly. As I like to know how the cards are working. But is it the same when querents come for readings and they ask a question on "how is so and so", is this not the same thing?. And if someone appears in the cards, do we have their permission if we should read about them when not asked? People mainly ask about relationship questions, so it's no different. I'm not going to feel guilty because of some rules(another one)ethical or not, I'm not harming anyone, and the universe certainly isn't going to punish me for it, I'm sure there are other more important situations, the universe can take it's wrath out on. If it worries you, don't do it, if not, well then it's up to you.

Kahlie	09 May 2005
I don't even do Relationships Readings where I read for the other person. They haven't asked me. I also believe that in Relationship Readings you should first ask the other person as well. In my own relationship I never read the Cards on us. He knows that. We talk things through. We sometimes draw Cards together to spark converstation about issues that have been bugging us. I sometimes tend to ask the Tarot: "What is the influence of in my life? or "How can I improve my relationship with " These questions are orientated towards me. Not towards the other person. I feel therefor I don't have to ask their permission. I'm not spying on them. I'm asking about me. I'm not even asking about me and them. And even so, these are questions I rarely ask. There are people who say that since you get the answers, the question can't be wrong. In which case torture is validated? It all depends on your person ethics. If you are not comfortable with it, don't do it. And please respect Readers who won't read those kind of questions. I often wondered how Readers can say: "I won't read for absent persons" and then continue to do "Relationship" Readings putting Cards down for the Partner that is not there. And saying: "Your partner " Just my 2 Cents.

Skydancer	09 May 2005
I think that about sums it up - if you feel it's spying and are not comfortable with it than don't do it. This is an age old question that will never be settled. Some do, some don't. I know about harm none, and think thrice - but I don't do readings on anyone else because I can pretty much tell what's going on with them without doing anything physical. So, does that mean I shouldn't think about my family far away because I might pick up something personal they don't want me to know about? Well, they're my kids so I figure I can pick up on whatever I please!! :) Seriously, you have to decide for yourself. Guess that doesn't really help you much. Sorry. Oh - readings for lost pets. Now, how can we ask them if they want us to find them or not? So it is situational at best. That's me; I abide by situational ethics!! S:OL

Red Emma	09 May 2005
And here it's my 1000th post, which I meant to make a big deal of. Oh well, 'useful' is better I think. I'm trying to find a pattern of people I read about. I'll just tell you what they've been and maybe a pattern will emerge. My 16-year-old grandson, who(m) I hadn't seen for a couple of years, was here at Christmas. He barely spoke to anyone. Actually, he didn't speak to anyone, and attempts to engage him were met with polite and firm disengagment. I knew he was having serious troubles at school and with both his father and his step father. I was deeply, deeply worried about him. His age group has the highest rate of suicides, and in the U.S. the rainy State of Oregon, ditto. Because I was too stressed to do a reading myself, I asked a friend to do it for me. I also wanted to know if I could help him in any way. (Grandmothers are really helpless, and have to be careful about offering assistance which the child's parents may want no part of. Besides, meddlers frequently make a situation worse.) The reading said that emotionally he was okay. He seems to take on the world's problems and feel guilty about each and every one. As a result I've done a couple of manifestations sending him good health, emotionally and physically. I did ask his permission for that. He said, "Sure, Grandma." And rolled his eyes. I could him thinking, "Grandma and her spells! Yeesh!" I now and again check in with my sister, using tarot. Our relationship is not the best, and when I haven't heard from her for a while, I worry about her. Want to make sure she's okay. Sometimes I read about friends if I don't understand why they're behaving in an unusual manner, especially toward me. Mostly I want to know if I've offended and need to do some fence mending. For most people I just ask. But there are those who only say, "No, no. Everything's fine." When any nut can see it isn't. I did a reading about my husband a few weeks ago because I wanted to understand something he was doing. Got the death card, among others. I think it meant that since he's retired he's had a major change of attitude. However, it scared the beejees out of me. I'll never read about him again. I don't read about my kids. They're 53 and 54. If they can't handle their lives by now, there's nothing I can do about it. I don't even want to know about it. I figure if there're real problems, I'll hear about it, if necessary. If it isn't necessary, what I don't know won't give me nightmares.

Valkyriesong	09 May 2005
Ivy Rhiannon wrote: taroteers. I'm just posting to let you know ... I like that word ROFLMAO ... seriously tho .. i think it all has to do with your own code of ethics. I've done my share of "spying" in my day when someone was being wronged by another person that I'm close to or if I haven't heard from a person in a long time .. like MONTHS or YEARS long time and I get like REALLY strong and strange feelings out of the blue about that person.

tarotbear	09 May 2005
Red Emma - congrats on your 1000th post! Anyway -- The 'fine line' here is the question of ethical behavior. "What is spying?" is asked in several posts. The question here is 'why is it necessary for you to do this?' and 'what is the reason for doing it.' There are many people out there who will 'abuse' (if I can use that term) the 'privilage,' and ask the cards what this one or that one is doing ... which then moves into how is this one or that one's sex lives, bank accounts, etc., etc. Is this spying? IMHO, it is. There is a fine line between asking ' I have not heard from Jill in 4 months! I wonder what''s happening to her?" to "She always seems to have money! Does she deal in selling drugs?" As for the astrologer who uses charts to find out who she will like working with - or not- Wow! No matter what you can tell me about what the stars reveal, I would think a person should be met in person and then see what happens. Casting a chart or throwing the cards in such a way is being judge, jury, and executioner for someone you have never met.

mike gorth	09 May 2005
I don't think that it is wrong. I mean, you might not want to pry too deeply but maybe like if someone died and you want to find out how they will do, I'd say that's ok. But something like someone's sex life might be a little too personnal and you might judge them differently. It's all up to you but be prepared for the concequences.

Nevada	09 May 2005
While I doubt I would feel a need to do this unless I genuinely thought the person may be in harm's way, I also believe that we have a kind of natural safety net when it comes to others being able to access our deeply personal information through intuition or psychic ability. I think a person really has to want to share in order for something personal and protected about them to be available to just anyone "peeking" in. (If only that worked against gossip, huh?) But that's only my belief, I don't know it to be a fact. I don't see anything wrong with the readings Red Emma did about a teen who seemed troubled, and as a family member I think it's within the bounds of propriety, provided it's genuine concern and there's a good reason for it. The spells were done with his permission. BTW, Red Emma, congratulations on your 1,000th! Outside of Tarot, we check up on friends and relatives when we know they're alone or feeble, or unlikely to ask for help when they need it. I think we have some responsibility to those we care for to do our best to check in on them. There are some who desperately want help and simply can't bring themselves to ask for it. I have a lot of trouble with this, myself, being of an independent nature and extremely introverted. There have been a few times in my life when I really needed to ask for help and couldn't bring myself to. I'm also reminded of a woman I knew who choked while eating lunch in a busy office. She expressed alarmed later that she had actually hidden instead of letting anyone know she was choking. This is something injured animals do as well, an instinct, we sometimes hide our vulnerability. There's a fine line sometimes, though, between caring and intrusion, and I think these things have to be judged on an individual basis, and we have to be honest with ourselves and not let the wrong emotions guide us. I don't condone out-and-out nosiness or controlling behavior, in any form. Nevada

Emeraldgirl	10 May 2005
I have only once done a reading for someone without thier knowledge and it was for my sister whom I was very worried about just to see where she was heading and what help she needed to end the cycle she is in. It gave me some good answers about the help she needs and the things she needs to learn on her own. If I could have gotten in contact with her I would have done the reading infront of her but at the time she had disappeared and has some not so nice people around her. I would not read for a celebrity but plenty of people do. I would not do it as I have no link with them and would not feel comfitable personally to do it. I think it all comes down to what you are comfitable doing. I was comfitable reading for my sister without her knowledge as I and the rest of my family were tearing our hair out over her behaviour. If you are comfitable doing these readings then do them if not then don't.

Red Emma	10 May 2005
One thing I meant to say about my grandson, I realized that if he were in a suicide mode, and wouldn't talk to anyone, with my tarot cards, I was the only person in the family who could get behind his huge brick walls to find out just what he was about. If he had been suicidal, I could let his parents know some some serious intervention could be taken. If more people could use this tool to understand their troubled teens, maybe there would be fewer teen suicides.

Michelle	10 May 2005
I have read my husband without his permission. I felt he was slipping into a depression due to some health issues. After the reading I told him I read him (he wasn't upset). He also validated my thoughts - he was starting to feel depressed. As a general rule I would ask the querent first - but I think when it is a loved one - sometimes the rules can be bent. Love & Blessings, Michelle

Emily	10 May 2005
I've read for family members without their permission, usually when I'm worried about them but they won't talk to me about possible problems. I also have done readings on other situations and non-family members but the info goes no further than me and I don't write the spreads down.

Vadella	10 May 2005
I do this for people w/o them knowing. If I see a friend in trouble I will do a reading for them and email it. It's like a surpirse gift. They always love it. There's been others I have wanted to do that with but I got the feeling that I shouldn't so I didn't. I just go with what my gut tells me.

elysgrl	10 May 2005
I'm actually pretty conflicted about this. I read for my husband without his knowledge all the time, but he never seems to mind when I mention it later. He's becoming very interested in Tarot too. I often do readings on my kids, especially my teenage sons, because they don't talk to me! My 14-year-old in particular is having all kinds of trouble in school, so I try to get to the bottom of what's really going on, and use what I've gleaned as a springboard for discussion. I don't feel guilty about that at all, and will continue to do it unless he specifically asks me to stop. As far as I'm concerned, my kids are my business until they leave home. (And yes, I also sometimes read their blogs and IMs if I think there's something shady going on. When I was a teenager, my mom found out I was doing drugs by reading my diary, and now I understand why she did it.) When my mom was having health problems I did readings on her almost every day without her knowledge and only told her after the fact (she didn't mind). So with my family, I feel like I have carte blanche. But then, a few weeks ago, I definitely crossed a line. There's this man I find attractive. Now, he's married, I'm married, we know each other casually from church. There has never been any flirting of any kind, and there never will be. In five years, we've barely spoken to each other. But, I'm ashamed to admit, I peeked into his marriage with the cards. And then I asked the cards if he found me attractive. The readings were disturbing and now I know stuff that I wish I didn't know. The thing is, I knew while I was doing it that it was wrong, but I did it anyway. Afterwards, I pretty much felt like a slimebucket. Not to mention a really bad wife. I saw clearly how abusing the Tarot in this way could destroy relationships. And I really hope that the next time the Devil rears his ugly horned head and tempts me to peek into somebody else's personal life, I'll have the Strength to resist. Blessings, Denise

tarotbear	10 May 2005
elysgrl ~ I am always reminded of the statement: Never ask tarot cards a question that you don't want the answer to. :smoker:

sprite	10 May 2005
i think that it is ok. but there are rules like anything else, if your intentions are good, you keep your mind and thoughts right i dont see a problem with it. ive done this on my husband when we were out of wack trying to get guidance on whats hes thinking, should i be doing anything. same with friends if im to help them but not sure how, that kind of thing.

Elven	10 May 2005
I think this is a great question! But a hard one to answer as I think it is such a personal choice, and the circumstances surrounding any reading are individual if not unique. What concerns me is how I feel after a reading of this type. When I started reading, as I didnt have anyone to read for, I thought I would look to others I knew to see if I could read the cards without them knowing. I would do a draw and try to interpret the cards and then put them back into the deck. I never remembered much of the reading and wasn't that confident enough to know if I was right or wrong. I never looked very deeply. After a short time, hesitant as I was, I decided to read about someone I was emotionally involved with. The cards I drew revealed the ending of this relationship very clearly - that I could interpret. I was very upset. The cards suddenly felt different. The truth, to someone as immature as I was, hurt! I then found myself reading about this situation furiously. My method of reading and approach to the cards changed. There was little respect for a deck which gave me bad news, but I kept reading. What I was gleening from the cards effected my communication with this person, my self esteem, my thoughts and eventually, the relationship itself. I had heightened feelings of inferiority and what I assumed was a knowledge and power, then I would read further and fall into to utter despair, depression, solitude. This attitude reflected directly onto the other person. The impact of reading the other person was that great. By the time I realized what was happening - the relationship was unsalvagable, and I was left alone to deal with my foolishness and my cards. The moment I stopped trying to read this person and had the realization that I had created this torment myself through my abuse of the cards, I also realized I had learnt a very important lesson about reading for others who did not know what I was doing. I can blame some of this on my immaturity, (it was many many years ago, I have come along way since then) and I can blame love. I could blame anything I wanted to but at the end of the day the responsibility was mine. All through reading at this time there was a niggling feeling not to keep going. Put the cards down, stop shuffling them, stop your mind racing, stop assuming, just stop. I never heeded my own advise and what my higher conciousness was telling me. It wasn't that I wasn't supposed to know anything about the situation, it was more to do with the fact that I could have handled it a different way after the very first reading. The consequences and the senario of the situationn came about because I could not confront the person with what I thought I knew about them from using the cards to read them. The way I was left feeling was pretty lousy. That changed the way I read the cards, and since then, I ask for permission - and that includes any higher forces I evoke, as well as the person in the reading. If I dont feel right, and I have that nagging feeling - Im very aware of it - I dont even get the cards out of the box. If I do read for another, the cards call, and it is a totally different sensation. It certainly doesn't leave me with some yucky residue afterwards. It prompts me to action in the right direction. I love reading the cards, and my attitude has changed towards them over the years - thank goodness for my sake and theirs! (LOL) I feel good after reading! My advice if it is harming the way you feel about yourself, the person you read for and the way in which you use the cards - think about what you are doing - to all these things. What are the true consequences of reading for someone who doesn't know what youre doing. Sometimes the question is: If you start, can you stop yourself? I couldn't, but I learnt a lesson from the cards. One of many valuable insights they have taught me over the years. This isn't law or anything, I just thought I'd share. Many Blessings Elven x

Moongold	10 May 2005
I find it hard to believe that the "powers that be" would allow breaches of privacy. It doesn't seem that Tarot is intended to be used that way and that people would have protection from that kind of invasion.

skytwig	10 May 2005
tarotbear wrote: elysgrl ~ I am always reminded of the statement: Never ask tarot cards a question that you don't want the answer to. :smoker: Exactly! That about says it for me..... If I don't know, then I don't need to know. :)

Moongold	10 May 2005
Moongold wrote: I find it hard to believe that the "powers that be" would allow breaches of privacy. It doesn't seem that Tarot is intended to be used that way and that people would have protection from that kind of invasion. I apologise if this seemed a little brusque. Edited: I think intention is important. If one does not have good and ethical intentions then one's access to the truth will be clouded. That is simply what I believe. It is easy to delude ourselves with tarot. What are things we "know" just through observiing a person? What are things we know just through experience and probability? And what are our projections? Sometimes I think people attribute wonder to tarot when it's not due - they know things through the above considerations. But that is an aside, perhaps even a little irrelevant. I simply believe that if one's intention is not good and ethical one will not be given even a look into the truth. Moongold

lunalafey	10 May 2005
Moongold wrote: I find it hard to believe that the "powers that be" would allow breaches of privacy. That's sort of how I see it. If you think about it, any reading we do most likely will spill over and involve another person or people who are not the one's being read for. I believe that each individual and each seperate situation has a different level of 'insight'. It's all 'personalized'. The Universe will show us what is right for us. Any one can read about anything and get answers. A person with good intentions and a compasionate heart will get a different message than one with decetive and manipulative intentions. After that it's karmic, depends on what one does with the information. In your situation, I would have done a reading with no worries.

Khatruman	10 May 2005
What I saw as you doing a reading ON her was doing a reading on your impressions about this friend you have not heard from in a while. It would be different if you decided to do a reading where you asked a question for her, like, "How come I don't want to see my friend anymore?" What you are doing is getting a reading on your deeper understandings about this friend you haven't heard from. Many times, when any querent does a reading, as someone has already pointed out here, there are others involved in that reading anyway. You cannot ask a querent if he or she got permission from the person they are inquiring about to read about them. The answer you receive, as I see it, will be from your understanding anyway, not the friend's perspective. I don't see any ethical dilemma.

Red Emma	10 May 2005
lunalafey wrote: I believe that each individual and each seperate situation has a different level of 'insight'. It's all 'personalized'. The Universe will show us what is right for us. Any one can read about anything and get answers. A person with good intentions and a compasionate heart will get a different message than one with decetive and manipulative intentions. To address both Moongold's perception that The Universe will protect those whose privacy may be violated by those with questionable motives, and Lunalafey's, ideas above, you've given me something to think about. I've been hanging around this old earth since 1926 and I'm afraid I've gotten more than a bit cynical. My gut feeling is that tarot is a tool. It can be used for good by folks of compassion and integrity. It can also be used less beneficially by those who have neither compassion nor integrity. I'm afraid that innocent people, even though they're honest, can accidently trip into the dark side. I tell my grandchildren, it's called 'learning by experience.' This has been a most useful discussion. I'm very glad it was started.

Violinagin	10 May 2005
Good question! A lot of times I will read for a relationship I have with a person, so I don't really feel that I'm reading for the person. Everythings turned to 'how it affects me'. I'm not trying to delve into their private life, so I don't think it's a breech of privacy. I'm just interested in how I'm responding or acting toward them, and what that means to our relationship. I'm usually more interested in how I'm acting... I don't want to be hurting others without realizing it! (I have foot-in-mouth syndrome... and I don't notice it a lot of times) Now, I think I'd only do a personal reading for someone if they asked. Not so much as a moral issue, but just for the fact I'm not usually interested in what's going on "behind the scenes" of others. I guess that sounds kind of bad.... @_@, but I mean it in the best way possible. If I ever wanted to read for another without their permission, I'd probably ask myself "Am I doing it for their benefit, or mine? If I'm just doing it for me, then I probably won't, but if I think they may need it, I'd go ahead. I haven't been in a situation where I needed to read for another, but I can think of cases I'd feel I'd need to.

Baby Owl	10 May 2005
Red Emma wrote: I'm afraid that innocent people, even though they're honest, can accidently trip into the dark side. Which makes me think that I would prefer to avoid reading "about" someone other than the Seeker. When someone asks me "Does XXX love me?" I tell them that I cannot read XXX's mind. I then offer to ask the Tarot for insight on what the Seeker might want to consider in terms of his or her own thoughts and actions regarding XXX. As far as me doing a reading to try to find out what a friend or family member is going through, I admit that "feels" different to me, although I'm not sure why. I still think I would be wary of assuming that I have figured out what's going on based on a reading. It seems like there are too many variables that could come into play. But then, I don't claim to be psychic or clairvoyant, with or without the cards.

Satori	10 May 2005
Sometimes before a querent comes upstairs for a reading I'll pull a card to see who they are, what they are into, and what kind of energy I'm going to be dealing with. Did I ask their permission? Nope. Today I was putting a deck on the table and getting ready to read and I notice a card on the floor. So I picked it up off the floor and looked at the 8 of Swords from the Druidcraft. In walks my next read. Ok. Thanks for the info. I agree with Luna on this one. Intention is the key, and I ask about all kinds of stuff sometimes. Sometimes the cards make sense and if they don't I figure I'm getting the "none of your business" sign from the Universe. You won't find anything out that you aren't supposed to know. If you do find something out then you are still bound by ethics as to what to do with the info. And if you are reading cards for people, hopefully you have some kind of ethical code that you live and work with.

Ivy Rhiannon	11 May 2005
Wow! I didn't know that this thread would be so popular! :D Well first off let me think everyone who has replied! And Red Emma congrats on your 1,000 post! Also sorry to hear your story Elven, but if it is a lesson learned...maybe it was worth it. I have to agree with most of you. It is ethics and intention after all, and each person will view it differently. I beleive that there is a fine line, between asking and meddling too. Meddling can ruin relationships, as many of you have seen from the stories in this thread. I do relationship readings all the time, I never thought it would be spying. But I did make my hubby mad because he found out I did one on us. "Why didn't you ask?" he questioned me. "Because I never thought to! It was my life I was inquiring about, you happen to be apart of my life!" I said. But now I feel wierd about reading for us. I guess permission is never a bad thing! Also I agree too, how can we ask pets for thier permission? And I think it is ok for family unless they mind. And when we read we do run into other people. That's why they have the court cards right? ;) I do like elf's idea of pulling a card for the client before they come in. Because I read without asking the qarrent for thier question aloud. I tell them to ask the cards not me. But then how will we know if they are prying? I guess you just have to trust your gut as always...

The Reading without asking? thread was originally posted on 09 May 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.