"superior" suits

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 22 May 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

deranged_walrus	22 May 2005
I began studying tarot six years ago. As a result, even though I always preface any tarot discussion with "I'm still a studying beginner," a tarotist friend refers to me as the expert. She first picked up a deck two years ago. We've had discussions about significator cards. I went through a stage where I said I didn't need them, then found that my readings were a confused, disjointed affair; therefore, I use a SC. My friend sticks to them like they're a religious text. Which, I guess to her, they are. There's a couple slight problems though. 1) She seems stuck in the medieval mindset. All females are pages until loss of virginity, upon which point they become queen. No matter what age they are (her 14-year-old cousin is a queen). All males are knights until they reach 25, when they become king. She swears by this "rule," and complains that it's archaic: "It's so stupid that they think women only reach maturity sexually, and men mature with age." Not even my system (everyone page until 18, both sexes are knights until they prove to be mature enough to become king or queen; it's a judgement call), will budge her. 2) She will not give up astrological signs to pick SC. She says that, as an air sign, she's a sword. I'm a fire, so I'm wands. She doesn't take into consideration that her boyfriend is more of an earth-type; he is set as a wand because of his sign. Her roommate MUST be pentacles (earth), even though the rest of us agree that she's an air personality. She's made an exception once, for my clinically depressed roommate. Even though my roommate is a fire sign, she's a cups to the tarotist. The problem arises when said tarotist uses these two "facts" to infer that she is better than others. She LOVES to remind everyone "I'm the queen of swords!" After about the 40th time we're ready to shove her down the garbage shute. She seems to have a little hierarchy of suits. Swords are best because they're the warriors! Wands next because they still carry a weapon, but not one that can cut skin (let's not mention that both her boyfriend and I are fire signs). Pentacles next because they're the sensible, money-making ones. Cups last because "they're so emotional. There is not a single logical bone in their body. It's just lots of feelings." Then there's the actual hierarchy of court to infer that she, as a queen, ranks above pages. She's making a deck using the people she knows, and has said to me with a certain tone that "Soandso is THE queen of wands! So, you're going to have to be the *princess*, okay?" Later, she said with a sad, dejected, depressed, pathetic tone that "My friend actually makes a better queen of swords. So I'm going to be the queen of *pentacles.* Damn." Do you see what I'm saying? She learned these things from a book two years ago and hasn't budged. When she says to my CLINICALLY DEPRESSED roommate during a reading that "Because you're the PAGE of CUPS, you tend to see things this way, so you have to do this...", my roommate (who knows NOTHING about tarot) can pick up on the subtle line that the queen of swords thinks little of her. Despite the fact that the two of them are friends, my roommate pulled herself away because it hurt her so much. No one can think of a way to tell the QUEEN that she needs to pull her head out of her ass. The job has unspokenly settled on me because I'm the only other tarotist. But how do I tell her that her hierarchy is stupid and hurtful, and she needs to get off her tarot high horse? Has anyone else ever encountered people who do this? What can be done?

jmd	22 May 2005
Why assume that just because the book she has read that claims correlations prefered by the author are 'correct'? I would first question her most basic unquestioned premises. From whence did she get Swords associated with any element? ...and if this does not hold for a medieval mindset, then why assume a specific age for a court... or worse, one based on sexual activity (and how would she know in some cases?).

tarotbear	22 May 2005
Please remind your friend (before you shove your fist down her throat for the rest of us) that the 'Rules of Tarot' say: Rule Number One ~ there are NO RULES!

prudence	22 May 2005
I would find that sword person very hard to swallow..... ; )

deranged_walrus	22 May 2005
Normally, I would just ignore her and tell her that she should keep reading and studying. But she's hurting feelings and insulting people. Rubbing it in that she outranks others in status and suit. Whatever. What to do, what to do.

Emeraldgirl	23 May 2005
Get her to read a few more books or use a few more resources like the net. Recommend/loan/whatever you can do to get her some more insight. You don't have to be nasty about it just go on about how great you found some books/site and how you think it may be something to interest her. Maybe she will come to her senses with a bit more knowledge (or at the least find a less hurtful rule to worship) and if not then do as Tarotbear suggested Quote: Please remind your friend (before you shove your fist down her throat for the rest of us) that the 'Rules of Tarot' say: Rule Number One ~ there are NO RULES!

Alta	23 May 2005
Yes, I agree with Emeraldgirl. She isn't going to accept it from you. Since she is so in love with 'authorities', find a book by a well-known tarot author and refer to it, out loud, often.

Sentient	23 May 2005
Maybe she really is the Queen of Swords. Reversed. More seriously though, instead of trying to meet force with force (as it were), you might want to (gently) show her the hurt that she has caused. In my experience people like this are largely unaware of the damage they do. If she sees the pain that she has caused, it might soften her approach.

Eco74	23 May 2005
How about a tarot-telling-off. You may consider yourself to be the queen of swords, but right now you're acting very three of swords making my roommate feel like nine of swords. You really need to stop picking fights like the five of wands because if you keep this up, you'll find yourself five of pentacles before long while the rest of us can finally relax and have some three of cups moments without worrying about old four of pentacles coming in and acting all stuffy and know-it-all. By the way, you do know that the queen of swords on a powertrip can get really nasty don't you? Though, finding a few highly renowned books seems like a really good option. Quoting, crossreferencing, leaving the books out to catch her intrest etc will hopefully get her to start thinking that there are alternate ways of seing things. And how about telling her straight that what she says is hurtful to whatever person it is she just directed her comment at? Touchy subject between friends, but true friends can take critisism and still stick around and truly caring friends will change their ways if they find out what they do is hurtful. (She can still keep her opinions to herself, but really there's no need to rub it in other peoples faces.)

huredriel	23 May 2005
tarotbear wrote: Please remind your friend (before you shove your fist down her throat for the rest of us) that the 'Rules of Tarot' say: Rule Number One ~ there are NO RULES! Hear hear!!!!! I'm surprised you've resisted saying something already, and for so long, you all must have a lot of patience. Not an easy situation to have, maybe she is very insecure about tarot and is holding onto these conceptions for confidence? Wishing you the best of luck x Huredriel

Deana	23 May 2005
I know someone like this (well, she doesn't claim to be the Queen of Swords, she's the Empress instead...she's above all those "little Queens"). There are two things I've noticed about her: 1. She's very insecure. She acts the most obnoxious when she's feeling the least secure. (Not that she admits this to herself.) 2. She really thinks she's being funny and that everyone is having a good time. If called on her behavior, she will claim that the people around have "no sense of humor." Honestly, I don't know if you could convince her she's wrong because she's probably having a great time being the most superior woman in her social group (does that mean a woman who has lost her virginity is better than a virgin? Like Paris Hilton does more good in the world than Mother Theresa ever did?) In social situations with the Empress, the rest of us just roll our eyes at each other every so often and let the person being put down know that the rest of us don't feel that way. But the Empress is not going to stop needing to assert how superior she is until she stops feeling inferior deep inside.

Kiama	23 May 2005
If he's really the Queen of Swords, you should confront her with logic... Ask her how logical it can be to say that only women can be Queens, and therefore only women can have the personalities of the Queens... And ask her how logical it is to say that star signs compel our personalities to such a degree that we can just ignore how we were brought up or the effect our life experience has had on the personality we had (if we had one at all) when we were born (which is, in my opinion, what a natal horoscope can tell you, and nothing more...) Ask her how logical it is to only use Court cards as significators. Ask her how logical it is that only men over a certain age can have the personalities of the Knights. Ask her how logical it is to assume gender dictates our personalities to such an extent as she is saying. The Queen of Swords should have sharp, quick mind, filled with logic, not this (what I consider to be) ill-founded, illogical, irrational, and out-dated rubbish. And a Queen of Swords who sees this will happily get rid of out-dated modes of thinking, not stick to them. Kiama

tarotbear	23 May 2005
Marion wrote: Yes, I agree with Emeraldgirl. She isn't going to accept it from you. Since she is so in love with 'authorities', find a book by a well-known tarot author and refer to it, out loud, often. Yes ~ and you can start with MY book! LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!! :smoker:

prudence	23 May 2005
How about just sitting her down and having her read this entire thread?

deranged_walrus	24 May 2005
My roommate (former now, since we moved out of the dorms) is depressed because she's convinced that no one loves her. She's had horrible luck with relationships in the past, and has resorted to dating a guy she doesn't like just to have a boyfriend. She sees it as pathetic that she, the oldest of all of us, is the only virgin. She wants a boyfriend and his love so bad, and all that the tarotist can do is remind her that she is still a page. Said tarotist thinks she's all grown up now that she's having a sexual relationship. When a girl asks what her SC is, the QoS will bluntly ask "Are you a virgin?" and then her sign, then reveal the SC according to her rules. It offset me the first time I heard it. Really, what business of hers is it. But one day she was referring to me as the page of wands, and when I corrected her, her face FELL for a split second. I know she thought "I'm not the only queen." Then she lit back up instantly and started gushing about how we need a queen for the other two suits to be complete. Right in front of my roommate. She's even explicity said to me in private that certain people will not be able to stand "the coming war" (we're not going to get into that story) because they are of "lesser suits." I almost laughed right in her face. She assumes that when she makes these comments about non-tarotist, they don't know enough about tarot to understand the implications. But they do, because they listen to me talking about it. So everyone is quite aware of what she's saying. I know it is an insecurity issue. With all us fire signs in the group, no one has stood out as The Leader. Instead, the fire signs are like a ruling counsil. It's an oligarchy with Leos at the head. And the poor little Libra needs to remind us that she's still the one with the sword. At this point, I'm not even asking for advice anymore. I'm just venting my awe at such outrageous thoughts and behaviour. If anyone wants me to shut it, just let me know :)

Phoenix Rising	24 May 2005
What a laugh she is...I have a friend like that too, although she doesn't do tarot...but man she loves to dominate a conversation, mainly about her own problems. But being the Aries, I soon tactfully put her in her place....I mean like, she'd come over, and my sister was watching TV, and she'd tell her to turn it off, so she can come and join our conversation...bloody rude! Tell her to join the forum...and then we could all put her in her place..LOL! You must tell her that there are young girls and boys who lose their virginity at 12. 13 & 14 is becoming quite common over here. so would that make them a queen??? I don't think so! Very hard to change people like her though mate. When she realises that no one is listening she'll go find someone else.

Ankou	24 May 2005
Wow... She does sound a bit hopeless doesn't she :( I had a friend once who was very similar, but she didn't read tarot. She played chess and apparently made good grades in high school, so she was always "teaching" the rest of us, and "putting up with us"... sigh She broke the heart of a very good boy one day and I had to put my foot down. I just said "thats it". No more. I will not let you do this to anyone else I care about and walked away. We met up like a year later, and she still had this boy dangling from her feet but spoke about him like a cockroach while he sat with us. I haven't talked to her sense. He, however, finally came to terms with the situation and walked away too... I hope she finds enlightment on her way, but I couldn't stand seeing her do this to others and to herself while she figured out that she had not even started the journey to true knowledge.

TarotGirlJess	24 May 2005
can you do a reading for her? you know like hers? or maybe just go for blunt.. listen X your readings are hurtful youaren't helping anyone by talking down to them. But i'd probably go for rude.. but that's me. TArotgirl Jess

The "superior" suits thread was originally posted on 22 May 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.