Tarot and religion
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 May 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| SunChariot |
20 May 2005 |
|
I have a question for anyone who can answer it. I've seen a lot of posts over time here about how the Church is against Tarot. I'm sure we've all seen them. :-) But what do the other religions feel about Tarot. Is Judaism against it too? I know it is a religion that incorporates a certain amount of mysticism and Tarot is so similar to the Kabala. What about Buddism, and other religions?
Barbara
|
| mike gorth |
20 May 2005 |
|
I'm not sure so don't quote me but I think since the Jews read the bible (I think? I just know they don't believe Jesus was a prophet) that they would have the same feelings toward it as the church. Not sure though but out of what I've heard, they believe in the old testament.
Mike Gorth
|
| bibi |
20 May 2005 |
|
Who cares if "they" are against it if you're not?
In any case,
1.Revelation tells of the future
2.Eve ate the apple when she "shouldn't" have and it turns out that men with more oestrogen are better scientists ;) women are just less likely to go into it because of societal patterns of old
|
| closrapexa |
20 May 2005 |
|
Judaism goes far beyond just not believing in Jesus. At the risk of having myself beheaded, I may say that Judaism is far older than Christianity and that Christianity is based upon Judaism, as is Islam.
Now, to the subject. While inmodern day Judaism any form of "witchcraft" and divination is prohibited, there are several cases in the bible where it is shown that while it was never mainstream, it was generally tolerated. When Saul wanted to know if he would win a certain war, he went to the village of Endor (not Star Wars, it means the Spring of Generations) and had what we would now call a seance with Samuel, who was a bit miffed at being called from the afterlife, and cursed him.
There are in fact a few more cases. Miriam was cursed by God with boils, for practicing divination, and she was cast from the camp for seven days.
However, what is important to remember that this "crisis" of reading Tarot does not usually occur to religious Jews. In Israel, there is deep separation between the secular and the religious. The two groups barely mix, and if a religous person decides to leave that path, then most popbably he would be an outcast (which is, incidentally, contrary to Rabbinic law, but is practiced nonetheless) from his family. Most probaby religious Jews never get to know what Tarot is, because they are programmed from birth to abhor it.
Hence, many secular Jews know what Tarot is and uses it, but the conflict of religion never comes up. We do not believe in the Original sin.
|
| Fairawen |
20 May 2005 |
|
*LOL* Don't worry, Christian's already known that the Jews were first. :P No beheading.
Just thought I'd mention that. :)
~Fairawen~
|
| Fudugazi |
20 May 2005 |
|
1.Revelation tells of the future
2.Eve ate the apple when she "shouldn't" have and it turns out that men with more oestrogen are better scientists ;) women are just less likely to go into it because of societal patterns of old eh? what's that to do with what various religions think of Tarot?? :confused:
|
| Odette |
20 May 2005 |
|
About your question about Buddhism and tarot, SunChariot:
I am not an expert on Buddhism, but the way I have understood it later variations of Buddhism (Vajrayana from ca. 500 A.D) which was influed by the Hinduistic tantrism involves mystics and tarot.
|
| Fudugazi |
20 May 2005 |
|
Well, speaking with one foot in the Jewish camp (mother - that makes me Jewish), and one in the Christian Protestant camp (father - that makes me Protestant ;)) and having a residual fondness for both but practicing neither apart from the holidays (2 sets of them!), I've never felt inhibited by either religion. My mother comes from a secular family - she has never been less than supportive, and asks me for readings several times a year; my father is the son of a parson, who has made great efforts to understand "the other" (including my tarot, which he does think is weird). He doesn't ask for readings but has accepted a couple of them "for fun"...
I don't think the very religious people of any of the three monotheistic religions like divination (though the people practice it) - but there are levels of tolerance. That's for divination in general. Tarot, of course, is taboo to very religious Jews, Muslims and Protestants not only because of its link to divination: but also because it shows representations of people. So even meditations or other non-divinatory (in the sense of predictive) uses are technically forbidden.
I have been studying lately a tarot called El Gran Tarot Esoterico, which is based on the Gra Sepher Yetzirah, and generally the Jewish Kabbalah (as opposed to the Hermetic Kabbalah à la Kirschner). The images are not specifically Jewish - but they are completely non-Christian and non-pagan either; much of the philosophy behind it is Jewish - at least, representative of mystical Judaism. Anyone familiar with the various writing of Aryeh Kaplan or Gershom Sholem would feel at ease using this deck.
As for the other religions - I know Hindus not only tolerate but actively practice divination. A religious Hindu friend of mine made my entire Hindu horoscope a few years back, and also read my palm - I have to say, so far, so good with his predictions, though the 3 children are a bit late in coming ;) There are several Indian members of this forum - I hope they'll come in to tell us of how Tarot specifically is seen by the various religions of their country.
African animism also uses divination quite openly; but as far as I know not Tarot.
(Mike: the Jews wrote what you call the Ancient Testament, and call it the Bible; as well as reading it ;))
|
| SunChariot |
20 May 2005 |
|
Thanks everyone, I was curious.
I must still say that I can't see what religions could have against it, as it has clearly been my experience that Tarot has made me feel closer to G-d and the universe.... and made me a better person. Definitely a very spiritual thing in my life. Maybe I need to become a Hindu. :-) You would think religions would be all for that...still makes no sense to me(?)sigh.....
Bar
|
| Baby Owl |
20 May 2005 |
|
I must still say that I can't see what religions could have against it, as it has clearly been my experience that Tarot has made me feel closer to G-d and the universe....
Many Christians would say that this is exactly the problem -- you are seeking enlightenment and spiritual fulfillment through the Tarot instead of through Jesus Christ, who should be your sole source. (Just explaining one point of view that I am aware of...)
|
| SunChariot |
20 May 2005 |
|
Many Christians would say that this is exactly the problem -- you are seeking enlightenment and spiritual fulfillment through the Tarot instead of through Jesus Christ, who should be your sole source. (Just explaining one point of view that I am aware of...)
Well, I'm Jewish as you may or may not have guessed. But when I do a reading, I consider that the answers I get are coming from G-d (or I guess Jesus is you are Christian). It is just a different way of asking the question, a different form of communication, but to me the answer comes from the same place, the same source. If I do a reading I AM asking G-d for the answer. And I usually pray first for the answer I need. Maybe it isn't the same for everyone.
I don't see it as getting seeking answers from Tarot and not G-d, but as hearing G-d's answers in Tarot.
Bar
|
| rosyelf |
20 May 2005 |
|
While I agree that the mainstream (may i say orthodox, with a small "o" ?) practitioners of the three monotheistic religions tend to reject Tarot as a false path and quite often as an evil one, I find it fascinating (and reassuring) that Tarot, other forms of divination and other beliefs and practices are practised by many of the less-mainstream members of those religions.
For instance, though the Vatican may reject Tarot-(although I must admit to finding the much-mentioned photo of John Paul II next to a book on Tarot rather intriguing) there are many, many baptized and practsing Catholics in the world who would use Tarot, and tea-leaves, and palm- reading, and scrying, etc. without feeling the slightest twinge of guilt. They marry the various traditions together in a way that suits them. I'm thinking of West Africa, where Catholicism and animism entwine almost as a matter of course, also the African-derived traditions in the New World (Santeria, Vodun, Candomble, Macumba, and others) in which Mary is depicted much as she is in Europe yet referred to with one of the African names for the Goddess. There are other syncretic religions such as this in the Amazon rainforest and in Latin America generally.
And there have always been un-traditional practitioners of Catholicism all over the world, doing their own thing in their own way. Historically, some of them were burnt for it. I think we've come some way since those times. ;)
|
| jmd |
20 May 2005 |
|
Though there are undoubted individuals within Christian churches that reject Tarot, this is not universally the case.
If nothing else, one need go no further than the foreword written by no less than a Cardinal of the Catholic church to Meditations on the Tarot (that same book that sits on the previous Pope's table in the mentioned photo).
Likewise, my maternal grandfather, who also regularly read the Epistle during Mass, had a deck. This did not in any manner prevent him from discussing Tarot or other esoterically oriented subjects with the local priest - or indeed his older friend (Dr Carton) who included a section on the Tarot in his book Occult Science and Occult Sciences.
On the Jewish side of my family, there is likewise no take against any carved or engraved imagery... and certainly none against divination per se (though I do not know what my great-grandfather, a Rabbi, would have said on this).
Tarot reflects a deep substrata of the richness of European culture, which includes religious thought and the seed-impulse from other cultures, all taking shape within a milieu that is effectively Christian.
One need certainly not be either Christian nor Jewish to appreciate the depth, the beauty, the intrigue, and the myriad other gifts Tarot brings, but neither does being either Christian or Jewish prevent enjoyment of usage of Tarot - quite the opposite, I would have thought!
|
| Shade |
21 May 2005 |
|
None of the Wiccans have said anything yet... usually we're right up there in the forefront. I wasn't sure if it was the thread starters intent to stick to the Abrahamic monotheisms so if that's what you had in mind sorry and ignore this.
Well first off, obvioulsly, Wicca is younger than the tarot but has embraced it in a big way. The Order of the Golden Dawn, its structure, rituals, philosophy and correspondences had a big impact on Gerald Gardner and many of the symbols associated with that GD appear in Wicca. As any decks based on the RWS and Thoth are themselves based upon the GD's official deck tarot and wicca share a few traits. The basic ritual tools in Wicca correspond back to the GD's set which they placed on their cards (wands replacing batons, pentacles taking over for disks in the case of the RWS).
As Wicca is currently embracing a decidedly shamanic current some of the hermetic stuff is taking a backseat. Geomancy and dream interpretation taking some of the spotlight off of astrology and tarot. Still the cards, owing their correspondences to GD traditions figure heavily in some traditions' rituals and of course a number of Wicca flavored tarot decks have been created.
|
| Baby Owl |
21 May 2005 |
|
Though there are undoubted individuals within Christian churches that reject Tarot, this is not universally the case.
The examples you cite in support of this statement are Catholic. I would say from my experience that the greatest opposition to Tarot comes from Protestant denominations -- not just individuals but the majority of the members of certain denominations, particularly in the U.S. It is certainly not just an "individual" thing. To say that a high Catholic official supports the Tarot is interesting but it ignores the entire Protestant community! Catholicism is not synonymous with Christianity, but is only one segment of it, albeit a huge segment.
I am sure there are individuals within any given Protestant denomination who are not opposed to Tarot, but I feel it is important not to minimize the opposition that does exist, in many cases on a fairly large scale.
|
| jmd |
21 May 2005 |
|
...in that case, let's move away from the Catholic Church for a while, and have a look at some of the others.
Of course, I have no doubts that there are some in any Christian denomination that may also be against Tarot.
With regards to the Anglicans, I have for a number of years taught a joint course with an Anglican minister. Location and public advertising: the parish hall (this was in the early 1990s).
One of the Conference Presenters, Philip Johnson, is co-author of a Baptist book on Tarot.
Of course, many other forms of Christianity far more generally embrace Tarot - such as some of the more gnostic Christian groups that have arisen over especially the past twenty years.
What this shows is not that all Christians accept it, but rather that just because some do not (or even that some do not approve of certain uses it is put to), that they therefore reject Tarot as a whole.
Of course, this does not in any manner contradict what Baby Owl brings, and from various things I have read here and elsewhere, it does indeed seem that certain protestant denominations especially in the USA have a more general rejection of what some amongst us may very well consider a divinely inspired creation: Tarot.
|
| Baby Owl |
22 May 2005 |
|
It is encouraging that things seem to be changing in this area, although I recently came across a web page that described a "flea market" being held by a Baptist church in Massachusetts. The list of items that were prohibited from the sale included weapons, drug paraphernalia, pornography, and tarot cards. :(
|
| SunChariot |
22 May 2005 |
|
It is encouraging that things seem to be changing in this area, although I recently came across a web page that described a "flea market" being held by a Baptist church in Massachusetts. The list of items that were prohibited from the sale included weapons, drug paraphernalia, pornography, and tarot cards. :(
Could you imagine! Lumping them all in the same category like that, can hardly believe it when Tarot has been such a spiritual tool and has helped me so much to solve problems and come so much closer to everyone and everthing, including the universe/G-d.
Bar
|
| HudsonGray |
22 May 2005 |
|
Fear does that. If they don't want to be educated otherwise, they'll keep lumping it with the low end of the spectrum.
|
| bibi |
22 May 2005 |
|
lol
helvetica i guess i jumped on the bit about religion (in general) being against tarot, yet the book of revelation in the bible is a prediction after all, so clearly there's access to this universal databank of information (about the future).. and why shouldn't we do it? and the whole "shouldn't" idea reminded me of eve eating the apple and to me the apple represents science so i threw in a snippet of research i found with a feminist twist. lol i guess i just think differently than others.. ;)
Bibi x
|
| anion- |
22 May 2005 |
|
A while back someone asked about how some of the non Abrahmic religions feel about Tarot.
I am not a expert on comparitive religions but have always had a great interest in them - specifically Buddhism.
From what I have read and experianced, it is much the same as most of the major religions. Technically, belief in the effectiveness of rites and rituals is considered a fetter to Samsara in the Pali Cannon (the collection of religious works held sacred by all traditions... although most branches have additional sutras they hold core to thier interpretation of the Dharma).
Never the less, many branches of Buddhism - esoteric (Tantric) Buddhism mainly, use various forms of divinations and rituals. While there are many variations between the major schools and branches of Buddhism with regards to interpretation of the Dharma, I think the varying attitudes towards divination (eg Tarot) have alot to do with native cultural context and less with the religion. Many of the divination techniques practiced in Buddhist Countries predate the arrival of Buddhism. I-Ching is a good example of this - many Buddhists in China consult it although it is technically a no-no if one where to believe certain texts.
As for Hinduism, I am sure there is someone more familiar with the subject here than myself, but considering the practice of rituals and divination many by many Hindu priests I don't think they would have a specific problem with Tarot.
|
| NightWing |
23 May 2005 |
|
Something that some here seem to forget is that tarot cards as a divination tool are somewhat culture-specific, and not at all "universal". Arising from western European experience, they are certainly used widely by those of European descent and some others, but the majority of people on the face of the earth are of different cultures and religions. While many have their own traditions of divination, why would we think that they have ANY opinion on tarot itself, let alone engage in actually using it. I'm sure most Hindus have never heard of tarot at all.
|
| jayde |
23 May 2005 |
|
I'm Hindu and I like tarot cards. ;)
Actually, I read recently that the tarot cards have been growing in popularity in India. Now, if only there were more Hindu-themed tarot cards...
|
| NightWing |
23 May 2005 |
|
Should you find, or even better, design a Hindu-themed tarot deck, please let me know. I'd love to add such a tarot to my collection!
However, I still doubt that the majority of the 900 million or so Hindus in India have ever heard of tarot. Culture is one factor. So is literacy, and the inability to afford such a western artifact. After all, what is wrong with the many forms of Hindu divination?
Namaste.
|
| Emeraldgirl |
23 May 2005 |
|
I am marrying into a Buddhist-Chinese family and my tarot habits is one of the very few things they actually approve of (I'm not Chinese and that's caused a few problems) But anyway the beliefs and rituals etc that they do are very similar to a lot of the Pagan/Wiccan beliefs and they love forms of Divination. My partner is currently learning Runes with blessings and as I mentioned they love getting tarot readings and put great stock in it.
|
| jayde |
24 May 2005 |
|
However, I still doubt that the majority of the 900 million or so Hindus in India have ever heard of tarot. Culture is one factor. So is literacy, and the inability to afford such a western artifact. After all, what is wrong with the many forms of Hindu divination?
Nothing's wrong with it. But, it is nice to know that people are open to tarot in India. I know many people who mistakeningly think tarot is related to some sort of dark cult, devil worship things. Blood sacrifices, etc. You know, THAT kind of stuff. I like that there are many people, of different cultures, out there that are not falling prey to those stereotypes.
I remember that I was practicing Tarot once, by myself, while I was waiting for my mother to pick me up when I was in 5th or 6th grade and a woman (another mother of some other kid) came up to me and said to my face I was going to Hell because I was using "that kind of stuff." I think tarot has gotten a bad rap from many sources.
|
| psychic sue |
24 May 2005 |
|
I don't know the standpoints of the various religions, but my Muslim friends tend to shy away from it and warn me to "be careful". I have a jewish friend who is always asking me to read his cards, but that may just be his own view. I will have to ask them !
Sue x
|
| TemperanceAngel |
24 May 2005 |
|
Just a far to quick comment: I was never raised in a religious sense but my family all agrees I am the most religious of us all....
|
| NightWing |
25 May 2005 |
|
jayde (and others): I was really struck by your mention of having someone else's mother condemn you over tarot at school. What an awful, intolerant thing for that woman to do! If it is any consolation, she probably would have said the same thing whatever you were doing, if it didn't fit her narrow definition of "religion" or even "reality".
I'm pleased to hear that the acceptance of tarot is indeed spreading, and that you find it is disconnected from any fear of links to dangerous cults, or other dark associations. But ignorance still stalks many lands, let me tell you; such as here in Canada. We must still keep watch.
Peace be upon you.
|
| Teheuti |
25 May 2005 |
|
The following summary from this website
http://www.nccg.org/occult/Occult032-Tarot.html
demonstrates a kind of reasoned bottom-line that you'll often find among certain groups of Christians. It's interesting that this author makes the point that the cards themselves are not evil but only with the advent of their use in the occult and divination.
"• The Tarot-pack is an augmented playing-card pack originally designed for a special type of card-game.
• Through the work of Antione Court (de Gébelin) in 1781, Tarot-cards have become associated with occultism (or sorcery), especially with "fortune-telling" and spiritism.
• "Predictions" obtained through fortune-telling are generally unreliable, but may, through the complicity of demonic spirits, occasionally startle in their apparent insight or accuracy.
• All forms of sorcery, including divination and spiritism, are forbidden by God.
• All those who engage in sorcery place themselves under the judgment of God and run the risk of invasion by demonic spirits.
• Today's Tarot-packs, which are radically different from their 15th century ancestors, are nothing less than a modern tool of sorcery."
|
| jmd |
25 May 2005 |
|
Amazing pages... thank you both, these certainly make for one very narrow form of understanding to be more broadly understood.
It also shows how certain aspects inform their particular viewpoints, without reflecting either Christian thought per se, and certainly not Tarot.
|
| NightWing |
28 May 2005 |
|
Fundamentalism is regretable, limiting, and even dangerous, whether it be Jewish, Christian, Moslem, Hindu, or whatever. It seems to me that such people are stuck with sad, narrow, and frightened little lives that are truly pathetic, and sometimes angry or violent.
We may pity them, but must also be on guard against them. Tarot is only one very small aspect of life in the 21st century that these people (may) oppose. The rest is most of the kind of life that many of us take for granted. Watchfulness is called for, and sometimes action. Let's not be caught dozing by politicians and others who embrace the tenets and influences of fundamentalism!
|
| Teheuti |
28 May 2005 |
|
Fundamentalism is regretable, limiting, and even dangerous, whether it be Jewish, Christian, Moslem, Hindu, or whatever.
Actually, it seems to me that there is a place for fundamentalism. The problem is that it tends to get applied outside of its original closed system (where it may be functional - at least for a while) - partly because it is a characteristic of fundamentalism to apply their convictions everywhere.
I don't know if this is the place to bring it up but I've been thinking quite a bit about Tarot Fundamentalism. It exists and it has lots of the same characteristics as any other kind of fundamentalism. It comes up whenever a tarotist holds a firm conviction that his or her scheme of the Universe is the right one - whether it be the Golden Dawn system or Jungianism or Lévi's Hebrew letter correspondences. For many, the "correctness" of their interpretations depend on it. Anyone who says that there is an absolutely correct way to see or interpret a card (and that all other ways are incorrect), or who says that there is one correct deck and all the others are not, is a kind of fundamentalist.
Within a community of like-believers these fundamentals become a hopeful bulwark of protection against a threatening environment and the feeling of security they bring can result in more effective action and an enhanced sense of well-being. In fact, the role of diviners in traditional cultures is to bring people back in alignment with the fundamentals of the culture.
MacGregor Mathers, in _Book T_ said: "The more rigidly correct and in harmony with the scheme of the Universe is any form of Divination, so much the more it is likely to yield a correct and reliable answer to the enquirer. For then and then only is there a firm link, and bond of union, established between it and the Occult forces of Nature."
I can see that this kind of thinking can often produce positive results for those who hold it. It just doesn't work for me.
Mary
|
| jmd |
28 May 2005 |
|
With regards to Tarot and Fundamentalism, some may be interested in visiting (or revisiting) a thread now over a year old, simply called 'Fundamental'.
It was started precisely because other posts at the time were in full swing with regards to consideration of 'fundamentalism' (though this would now be somewhat invisible within the thread).
|
| jayde |
29 May 2005 |
|
jayde (and others): I was really struck by your mention of having someone else's mother condemn you over tarot at school. What an awful, intolerant thing for that woman to do! If it is any consolation, she probably would have said the same thing whatever you were doing, if it didn't fit her narrow definition of "religion" or even "reality".
I can't say I was surprised at her lack of tolerance. It was more her harshness about it. I don't know, the way she said it was what surprised me. It made me realize there are really a lot of misunderstandings surrounding tarot when really there shouldn't be.
|
| Fudugazi |
29 May 2005 |
|
Frightening stuff on that page you linked, Teheuti! You would not have read any different at the time of the 17th Century Puritans!
|
| NightWing |
30 May 2005 |
|
I certainly agree, Teheuti, that Fundamentalism can be as much of a problem in the world of Tarot as anywhere else. Ultimately, I suppose I can't do much if individuals choose to walk a very narrow and limiting path. I may not like it for them, but people can and will choose to become less than what they might be.
The objectionable part is the effort to force everyone else to conform to a particular way, and that to me is unfortunately a basic aspect of what I understand to be "Fundamentalism". There is no particular path in religion or anything else that I would want people to conform to; only I wish that in order to grow as individuals, we open ourselves to the plethora of experience that life and the world can offer.
I believe that Fundamentalism constricts the possibilities for individual human growth and personal evolution. I also see it as being the root cause of much human suffering, whether it be in wars, inquisitions, pogroms, crusades, jihad, terrorism, or "ethnic cleansings". Hence it is harmful to human society in general.
|
| SunChariot |
30 May 2005 |
|
.
The objectionable part is the effort to force everyone else to conform to a particular way, and that to me is unfortunately a basic aspect of what I understand to be "Fundamentalism". There is no particular path in religion or anything else that I would want people to conform to; only I wish that in order to grow as individuals, we open ourselves to the plethora of experience that life and the world can offer.
I believe that Fundamentalism constricts the possibilities for individual human growth and personal evolution.
Beautifully put. :-) What I think is that we each have the right to find and follow our spiritual path, and yes it should be a path to spiritual growth and growth as individuals. But the person has to want that and strive for it or it won't work. We do not, I feel, have the right to tell others how they should live their lives in those respects. Although obviously certain spirirtual laws need reinforcing, such as those against crime (murder)...
Bar
|
| mingbop |
30 May 2005 |
|
Owl, i think you have it right. the only reason the religions dont like tarot/divination is because ti takes power away from them. They want to control it all. People have always practised divination form the romans and even before...it was just when christianity got a grip that thigns started to go wrong...(from a tarot reader's point of view anyway !) lol
|
| SunChariot |
30 May 2005 |
|
Owl, i think you have it right. the only reason the religions dont like tarot/divination is because ti takes power away from them. They want to control it all. People have always practised divination form the romans and even before...it was just when christianity got a grip that thigns started to go wrong...(from a tarot reader's point of view anyway !) lol
I always suspected that too, I think it makes sense too. I am sure that is a big part of what the organized religions have against it.
That it can allow people to communicate with G-d ( aka a higher power/the universe...) without priests and rabbis.....and through the cards understand his individual plan for them without external help, pray at home... Once people can do that there is a lot less need for organized religion. And of course they have a vested interest in it and do not want to see that happen.
That and of course if everyone used Tarot instead, there may be some that misuse it (probably unintentionally) and get answers that are harmful to themselves and others and then the religions would have no control of that.
Bar
|
| light2000 |
30 May 2005 |
|
hi i´m an honest person so i must tell that i didnt read all the answers to this question and maybe what i´m going to say is already write but...
i think that the church is against the tarot and another esoteric things not because it takes power of it but because contradict the bible and the laws of the church.
see, when we read the tarot we talk about the destiny and future of the querent, so you are taken off the free will of the person. of course that a good tarot reader must inform the querent that tarot helps and inform the querent´s future only if is continous for the path that he have choosen.
see, when you do a reader for a student and you see that he will past you must say that you will past IF you conyinue the good work, if whith this information you sit at the swadow of a banana tree ( i dont know if you use this sentence at your country but at mine we use for a cases of wating for the best whith out doing nothing) he will not pass.
but the most of tarot reader dont give this information to the querent, so they belive that hes destiny are already writen. if somrthing bad hapen at his life he will say that is my destiny and he could start to demoralize and accustom and do nothing to change hes life. i think that i explain what i tried to say.
at the catholic church there is one big saint that was known by his reading cards ( no tarot, normally cards), dreams meaning and witchcraft.
Strange dont you think?
He´s name is São Cipriano, the book of witchcraft is very bought at every place of the world, but i dont know if mention that the man is considered sait.
Another one is São Tiago you certainty that you know him but whith other name. he was a Jesus follower very known, when Jesus died, he went to Spain, he belived at the crystals power and a lot of another things. Now there are a cathedral ( São Tiago de Compostela) and it is beatifull. i went there like every person when initiates at the esoteric world. At the ceiling ( i dony know the name but at portugal we call the fat eye) ther are a fat eye, the eye that protects us from the another peolple envies. Do you know what i´m talking about?
And in Brasil all the church is on whith the esoteric world, you know yemanja?
she is the watergoodess and in brasil she is chatolic saint, so if the church says that we can only love one God.... where they put yemanja?
but there are churchs full of yemanjas figures and a another saints like Santo Expedito that protects you at your spiritual life. And they have a lot that the church only consider them saints in Brasil at another places of the world you cant put a figure of brasilian saints? Isnt funny?
At the buddism i think that everthing is possible, and i´m fascineted for their vedic theories ( maybr you dont know at it is). The hinduism i think that is do open like the buddism ( the thrantic sex) because of teirh trantic theories.
i hope i helped you, maybe you are thinking about that i´m chatolic, my country is full of them, but i dont belive at any religious, because God loves all of us, and when religous make so many wars God must think:
ohhh, my brothers dont you see that í´m only one why you give me so manny names and give me so manny houses? i´m inside at all of you i mad you at my similatrity so you all are God and i ´m all of us.
For me God is the energy that every thing haves, is bnecause of that we say that he is in every here.
~i´m going to silent my self because i know so manny theories about this subject that if i start i only stop tomorrow.
|
| SunChariot |
30 May 2005 |
|
i think that the church is against the tarot and another esoteric things not because it takes power of it but because contradict the bible and the laws of the church.
see, when we read the tarot we talk about the destiny and future of the querent, so you are taken off the free will of the person.
maybe you are thinking about that i´m chatolic, my country is full of them, but i dont belive at any religious, because God loves all of us, and when religous make so many wars God must think:
ohhh, my brothers dont you see that í´m only one why you give me so manny names and give me so manny houses? i´m inside at all of you i mad you at my similatrity so you all are God and i ´m all of us.
For me God is the energy that every thing haves, is bnecause of that we say that he is in every here.
~i´m going to silent my self because i know so manny theories about this subject that if i start i only stop tomorrow.
Thanks for your post, I learnt all kind of things I didn't know and it really was interesting.:-) Love your name too (light[2000]).
I guess there are many many ways to read Tarot. For me it doesn't take away free will, it increases it. As we can still change the future it predicts, and it can be used as a wonderful tool ot teach us how. To me Tarot draws me much closer to G-d, as I think the asnwers come from him. It makes me appreciate the beauty of what he created more, and to feel more connected to it. I never really understood what religions have against it. For me it does so much that religions should want people to experience.
Anyway, I'm not Catholic either. I'm Jewish/was born that way, but I feel very much what you do about it. And it's nice to see someone say just what I was feeling.:-) I think I am a very spiritual person, but not as religious. I don't believe that much in one religion over another. I think it is all the same G-d who created us all ....doesn't matter as much if you paint Easter eggs or light Chanukah candles. What G-d cares about is what is in our hearts and if we are good caring people or not.
And a good heartfelt prayer alone in your home full of love and respect has got to mean a lot more than just repeating (in a relgious institution) of something you memorized years ago without the feeling behind it.
So many bad things have been done by those who think their religion is superior. (sigh) I am sure G-d must be against that. He just wants us to love each other and be good to each other. I don't think "Love thy neighbours" means just when they think and act like you. If he created us all, we should respect that and all his creations. Well, that's how I see it anyway.
Bar
|
| light2000 |
30 May 2005 |
|
yes, i have the same opion that you have. you know that are documents that say that the bible at the begining talked about another lifes before this one? than they take off that part. they thought that encourage people to done some crimes so they took off.
|
| SunChariot |
30 May 2005 |
|
yes, i have the same opion that you have. you know that are documents that say that the bible at the begining talked about another lifes before this one? than they take off that part. they thought that encourage people to done some crimes so they took off.
Actually no. I never heard that. But i find it really interesting though. Thanks for sharing. :-)
Bar
|
| mingbop |
31 May 2005 |
|
there's spiritual....and there's religious. The two are completley separate . organized religion is about power and control. Spirituality is about having a deeper understanding of how things really are. To me there is a gulf, as wide as the oceans of the world, between the two.
A religious person can be spiritual, and a spiritual person can be religious. But thery're still two different things.
|
| jmd |
31 May 2005 |
|
...let's also not confuse fundamentalism with the incorrect acquired sense it has unfortunately cloaked itself with, that of bigotry.
To seek for the fundamentals of one's religious striving is, in my personal view, and whatever the religious trail, commendable. To become a bigot or intolerant fanatic is another matter entirely.
|
| Teheuti |
31 May 2005 |
|
...let's also not confuse fundamentalism with the incorrect acquired sense it has unfortunately cloaked itself with, that of bigotry .
To seek for the fundamentals of one's religious striving is, in my personal view, and whatever the religious trail, commendable. To become a bigot or intolerant fanatic is another matter entirely.
I see the key difference between these two in the word "seek." Seeking for fundaments is fine. But when you hold fundamentalist convictions then, by definition, you are right and everyone who thinks differently is wrong - it's the nature of the beast. It requires rigid adherence and the absolute belief that this is how things are. The question then becomes what you're going to do about all those people who are wrong. How can you possibly not oppose error?
Am. Heritage Dictionary definition of fundamentalism: "A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism."
|
| rachelcat |
31 May 2005 |
|
Thich Nhat Hanh, a Vietnamese Buddhist teacher very popular in the US and France, has mentioned in his books to avoid fortune telling. The (Theraveda) Buddhist prohibition was originally for monks. They should not take advantage of the gullible. If people think you're a holy person, they will think you know things and have powers that you just don't. Also in Buddhism you are supposed to be living in the present moment. Putting alot of (especially spiritual) energy into thinking and talking about the future is going in the wrong direction when you're trying to "Be Here Now." (I only know what I read . . .)
On the topic of spirits: I have been on this forum and read many, many tarot books enough to know that spirits and spiritualism are not a big part of the tarot scene, however---my Tarot of Ceremonial Magick has detailed (well, maybe not detailed enough!) instructions on how to summon and enslave spirits to do your will. Ugh. I do find this morally repugnant, especially when all other GD and magical groups' information is full of "inner improvement" and "for the benefit of all." Except spirits, I guess . . .
So when everybody jumps in and says people who claim that tarot and magic have to do with spirits are IGNORANT, well, they don't know the wonderful information and people here at ATF, but they didn't make all the spirit stuff up!!! Of course, it IS in someone's best interest to accentuate the negative, but . . .
I have posted before on my waryness of spirit work and spiritualism, but if that's what you're into, that's fine (except maybe for the slavery part . . .) Hope I didn't step on too many toes . . .
|
| NightWing |
01 Jun 2005 |
|
[quote=SunChariot]I always suspected that too, I think it makes sense too. I am sure that is a big part of what the organized religions have against it.
That it {TAROT} can allow people to communicate with G-d ( aka a higher power/the universe...) without priests and rabbis.....and through the cards understand his individual plan for them without external help, pray at home... Once people can do that there is a lot less need for organized religion. And of course they have a vested interest in it and do not want to see that happen. [quote]
I beg to differ with this line of thought. Most religions include the idea of personal prayer: the individual believer communicating with the Divine, separate from group worship, and in an unlimited variety of ways or forms. This is certainly true and always has been within both Judaism and Christianity. No rabbi, priest, or minister is required for personal prayer; it contradicts the whole idea. So I can't see how some organized religions would attempt to ban divination on the basis of trying to control people communicating with their God(s)!
Within some religions are "discouragements" from attempting to know the future, like parables with negative outcomes. Certainly American Christian Fundamentalists tend to see divination as being "of the devil" (and therefore evil) from their particular narrow frame of view. And a great many religious people are fearful of what they know little about and do not understand.
There are factors at work here, but control of communicating with "God" is not one of them.
|
| HOLMES |
01 Jun 2005 |
|
about another religion, we can't influence their view on that and the tarot unless they are ready.
if they come to you and ask teach me a bit about the tarot so be it.
notice they didnt' ask me teach me about my religion past.
which some may start with it defending their tarot use instead of exploring why they use it, what it meant to them.
I recall a time when a person asked me isn't the tarot the devil on a reserve, to which i said no it is only the church who said so and walked out.
my friend asked me why did you defend your beliefs like that.
to which i said because they were trying to make me look bad.
i was a young 18 and so there it is.
now i am 11 years older and more experienced and more open minded.
and I am finding that by my study of the christian mysticism in the christian mediations of the tarot, and tarot symbolism that there is a lot of religious undertones and symbolism in the tarot.
if we but open our eyes to them, i know mine was closed to the idea itself until I read the review here on aeclectic and it still took a year or more to get the book after it was rereleased.
in a way it is the same with astrology, qabbalah, numerolgy, and medieval philopshy in the tarot. it is all there but do we want to see it.
my take on this is to look at how much the church history, theology is in the old tarot first looking at old marsielles perhaps and the christianity in the waite. then the culture, the symbolism.
then when a judgemental person of the religous nature comes to judge us for reading the tarot we can have explanations of how the tarot has lots of religion in it.
then when ready for we all know the moment when it comes.
not to destory their beliefs for that isnt' our purpose,, but for the earnest person who is moving past the church in a search for the christ in a new way.
we can share about the lost gospels that were found, how the first gospels only had jesus sayings and none of the stories like the crufixations which were added in later some 30 years after the first essenes gospels
that paul changed a lot of the christ sayings to mirror his own agenda.
then you can go to the bible,
how things were changed over the years,
but to immediatley start to question their beliefs when our tarot use is brought into question is to start the two of swords reversed or the 7 of wands reversed. or perhaps the nine of wands reversed.
when we should be the heirophant.
some of the questions if asked i can't really answer.
1. who made the tarot
2. where was the first tarot made
for we only have theories that come close, but we dont' really know.
yet we could ask that about the bible of coure
and we again begin the attack lawyer way of doing things.
the only thing I can advocate is looking at the history, symbolism of the older tarot, and the pyschology, symbolism of modern tarot.
and never mind what other people think of our studies of the tarot
for the tarot is another way to learn about the soul journey and the creator
just another way is all.
and it includes qabbalah, astrology, numerology, and psychology.
the bible include astrology, numerology, old time psychology and philosphy,
and even some qabbalah teachings after the last changing of the bible.
i believe.
for one to say another way is the only way is well i dont' know.
right now i am study the course in miracles which says it is a required course,
which some may think that it is the only way.
but no just that its principles will be explored in some way such as buddhaism, where the idea that creator is in everything and we project onto the world what we want to see.
the idea of overcoming the ego by mediation, by philopshy, by pyschology, by relgiion, by native spirituality(vision quest and sweat lodges) is in every culture.
all these ways work, especially if combined all together
and so you have the rainbow path, which combines everything taking the best of everything.
and so for those that judge you for reading just another way, forgive them accpet them, love them, and move on.
even if they dont' do that to you :)
|
| rachelcat |
01 Jun 2005 |
|
but to immediatley start to question their beliefs when our tarot use is brought into question is to start the two of swords reversed or the 7 of wands reversed. or perhaps the nine of wands reversed.
when we should be the heirophant.
Well said. You are being a bit of the Hermit too, HOLMES.
|
The Tarot and religion thread was originally posted on 20 May 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.
|
