Muddled up with decks ... whispers from Crowley

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 22 Jun 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Little Baron	22 Jun 2005
Hi Everyone This is a bit of a stupid question, but I will carry on regardless :D A few months ago, things were fine. I was working with Marseille decks and enjoying the ride. However, after a while, I felt I needed a break and something different. Since then, I have been pulling out different packs; feeling I needed to start from scratch with something different. I have been looking at the Russian Tarot of St Petersburg and Morgan Greer, but somehow it feels as though I am covering old ground. As much as I do not know everything there is to know about those decks, I don't feel completely connected to them. The Petersburg deck really seemed to open up, but then, it closed on me - bam, just like that. Reading responses from another user here, when starting threads on those cards, was enlightening - somehow, I couldn't connect with them in the same way as she could. I don't want to buy another deck; I have many here to choose from that have not been used. The one deck that has been shouting out to be used is the Thoth. I have never used this deck for a long period of time. When I got it, I started to and had some very interesting responses from it intuitively. I don't know why (probably the Marseille), but it got pushed into the background. Looking at it again, it feels completely new, and in a way, alien to me ... but the colours speak ... I get a feeling when I hold it. It is a world I have always wanted to investigate and I am wondering if now is the time. I am wondering where to start, if I do undertake this journey. How did others begin with the Thoth? Did you read books (I have the Akron/Hajo Banzhaf one) or did you rely on what you 'saw' in the cards? Do you know any good links to help a beginner? Am I making the right choice? I will add more to this post once others respond as I am a little confused by it by the moment. I took a short break from the tarot recently, even though I continued to visit the site. Interested in all views LB

Little Baron	22 Jun 2005
I think that part of this question is 'How did you get to the Thoth?'. Did you start with it (if so, how easy was that to do?) or did you follow a different tradition and find your way to the Thoth door a little later? Just looking for experiences to see if they make sense to the way I am feeling about the deck at the moment. LB

Ross G Caldwell	22 Jun 2005
For myself, Thoth spoke to me because Crowley spoke to me, in the Book of Thoth. I didn't understand much at the beginning, since I was only 13. Crowley's language was difficult, he spoke from life experience - his was ending when mine was only beginning, and he quoted from so many sources that I had no idea how to get ahold of. I started, slowly, to build a collection, to find the books, to study and use the deck. Before I even knew it had been printed, I drew my own copy. But even though it is difficult, I would say avoid the commentaries of others, at least at the beginning. Study only the Book of Thoth - it is more valuable than the deck itself, since Frieda Harris was only an interpreter, while the Book of Thoth is the source. Also read the letters between Frieda Harris and Crowley at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1896/crowhar.html To understand your attraction to the deck, I would ask myself, not only about the colours, but which cards in particular do you feel emanate power? For me, the most beautiful card, the card closest to my soul, is The Star. I can't say why, exactly, but it always has been. The key to your attraction to the deck, to Crowley, and to Thelema, and to your own True Will (as Crowley would say), may lie in that card.

Little Baron	22 Jun 2005
Thanks Ross ... There is one card that always sends a shiver through me - not a bad shiver, but one that is like a deja vu - like it means something to me but I cannot explain what. 6 of Cups It is like I have seen it before - in a different lifetime or age - I can't explain it. I have looked at this card before for a very long time and tried to work out what the connection is - just that the same feeling exists. Quite a few of the cup cards stir me but I cannot put a finger on what it is. I also like The Star - it is beautiful visually but does not stir me inside like the ones mentioned. LB

Ross G Caldwell	22 Jun 2005
LittleBuddha wrote: Thanks Ross ... There is one card that always sends a shiver through me - not a bad shiver, but one that is like a deja vu - like it means something to me but I cannot explain what. 6 of Cups It is like I have seen it before - in a different lifetime or age - I can't explain it. I have looked at this card before for a very long time and tried to work out what the connection is - just that the same feeling exists. Nice card... Pleasure. The colour is obscure, hypnotic, you can't tell if it's sunset or sunrise, spring or fall... then the design looks like art-nouveau, like an absinthe fountain. The card suggests artful intoxication, but with a creative and attractive result as well - so long as the spell is broken in time. Quote: Quite a few of the cup cards stir me but I cannot put a finger on what it is. I also like The Star - it is beautiful visually but does not stir me inside like the ones mentioned. LB Yes, everybody will have their own favorites.

Emily	22 Jun 2005
The Thoth is a deck that I love to bits but I don't work with it that well. I think for me to be able to get into a deck as deep as the Thoth I'd have to work with it exclusively - and at the moment I can't do that, I'm having too much fun with my RWS inspired decks - the Morgan Greer, Gilded. 'The Book of Thoth' is an amazing read, I've still not finished it but I like his style of writing, don't understand it all of the time but it holds my attention. The Duquette book (sp) is a reader friendly book based on the Book of Thoth and I enjoyed reading that one - and I understood the Thoth more. If the deck is pulling you that hard LB then try working with it. There isn't that many books on the Thoth - the one I don't like is the Angeles Arrien one - it seems to go off and do its own thing, really moving away from Crowleys interpretations. 'The Keywords for the Crowley Tarot' by Banzhaf and Theler is just that alot of keywords and card of the day, card of the year, general interpretations - I like keywords though lol :). 'Tarot as your Companion' uses the RWS too - compares the two decks but the book is based on a 4 card spread, interesting book and one I used when I was trying to compare the Thoth to the RWS. My first Thoth is the green-tinged version which I'm started to appreciate now but I've also got 3 others lol - a large one, very cheaply off Amazon, a standard one and the pocket. My favourite card is the Empress :)

Moonbow*	22 Jun 2005
Hi LittleBuddah This is a good site: http://www.tryskelion.com/ .. go to The Arcs for Tarot. I did have a site with the entire Book of Thoth, but it doesn't seem to work now. When I was working with the deck I did alot of intuitive work with it, but I also read (okay it's not easy) The Book of Thoth which is excellent for understanding the deck. If anyone has the link I would like it again. :)

Emily	22 Jun 2005
I also had the site bookmarked for 'The Book of Thoth' online but lost the link when my laptop went down - I've just looked for it again and can't find it. I did however land on a site that gives you a daily card reading with the Thoth so I did mine and guess what I got - yep 7 Disks - Keyword Failure lol

Little Baron	22 Jun 2005
Thank you all for your replies and help. I also had a link for the Book of Thoth but lost it also. I am glad you joined in Emily because right now, I have the Thoth and the Morgan Greer sitting beside me. I keep sliding the Morgan Greer into its box but somehow, it won't let me. It is almost like it is trying to prove its worth to me, lol. I think that I am going to keep both to hand for a while. I am going to continue with the MG but as I work with it, look for differences and simularities in the Thoth. I don't want to completely give up one for the other so I will see what feels stronger as I go along. I am terrible like that. I do have a tendancy to change my mind from one moment to the next, love something passionately one minute and hate it to death the next. I like the way that you have stayed very faithful to your MG - you must have a great relationship with it now. At a loss, I actually turned round to my dad and gave him both decks to hold - I said to him 'don't look at the cards ... just tell me which you think feels more powerful'. He stood there for a moment and handed me the Morgan Greer. I wasn't expecting that but it did make sense. LB

Alectra	22 Jun 2005
The Thoth deck was the first deck I learned to read with. I learned this deck by reading for myself. This is still one of my favorite decks, I think you just have to work with it and read with it to understand it. It is very complex but at the same time it always seems to be very direct and to the point. My card seems to be the High Priestess, I too also feel like I have seen this card in a past life and have some sort of connection with it. Anytime it is pulled I usually start having Deja Vu... This deck has a really really strong energy but there has also been times with this deck where it absolutely doesn't want to read for me and there is other times I get strong feelings that the deck wants to be used... AlectrA

Little Baron	22 Jun 2005
Thankyou Alectra ... I have been shuffling the deck and laying cards out in twos this evening. What felt very cold earlier has started to warm up again like it was once before. The colours seemed to get deeper and I started looking at them intuitively - how they matched and contrasted. I think that previously I had been spending so much time looking at numbers and symbols that my intuitive side became numb - that is a good reason for me to start looking at the Thoth again in the way that one would view and oracle - so that I can get to know the images again before I start researching it in any greater depth. LB

similia	22 Jun 2005
My 2 cents :) I'd recommend starting with Du Quette's book, then Banzafs, then Crowley. Also Wang's Qabalitic Tarot is a new love of mine, and has really inspired me in using the Thoth. Although I am not as intuitive as you, so take this as advice from a systems fan :)

Emily	22 Jun 2005
Hi LB, The Morgan Greer came to me at a time when I really needed a spiritual lift, I'd been flitting from deck to deck never really connecting with any of them, not even sure of what I was looking for and very close to giving up trying to learn the tarot - then I saw the Morgan Greer again on the tv. I had the deck ordered by that night nearly 15 months after me first trying to order it. I too am amazed that I've been so loyal to one deck after my flitting through so many - but then I look at the Morgan Greer and I know why, this deck speaks to me in a language I can understand. But I do still work with other decks, usually with my Morgan Greer close by - I love deck artwork, the Gilded and DruidCraft are a couple that really caught my eye and I can try to work with decks that give me a challenge, like the Thoth because I know at the end of the day I have my Morgan Greer. It is like a comfort blanket for me, but its not a jealous deck - even if i haven't touched it in a week or so, its still there for me. Maybe you could keep your Morgan Greer on the sidelines too - work with the Thoth, its calling you - but keep the Morgan Greer as a deck that you know you can work with and when you need to see a friendly face it will be there waiting. :) Also I've spent the afternoon trying to decipher the 'Book of Thoth' lol but I also found out the Lon Milo DuQuette book out - (I could do with a stiff drink lol)

Little Baron	22 Jun 2005
It looks like I better get hold of that book since you both recommend it :D One thing that did help was a search of readings with the deck this afternoon. I looked through at how others related cards to each other and looked at the colours. It really helped for me to actually look at the cards as apose to trying to remember meanings or relate them to other decks. Thanks for your help LB

Emily	22 Jun 2005
The DuQuette book is aimed straight at making the Thoth readable - the author recommends you read 'The Book of Thoth' and then read it again and again - but having this book cuts through Crowleys writing which can be really hard to read and makes it understandable without changing any of the interpretations - both books, IMHO, complement one another. :)

rachelcat	22 Jun 2005
Little Buddha, what a coincidence! I am also studying the Thoth and the Morgan Greer at the same time! Yesterday (for the Summer Solstice) I just started a year-long study/meditation on the Thoth. I have a little altar set up with the Thoth cards for the day in picture frames. So now I can't use them for readings . . . So after my meditation, I did a reading with the Morgan Greer for inspiration for my year-long effort and got just that. I guess I should have expected to be inspired after meditating on the Ace of Wands! So anyway, in my limited (2 day) experience, the Thoth and the Morgan Greer work and play very nicely together!

Little Baron	22 Jun 2005
Thanks for that Rachelcat ... I suppose there is no reason why they should not work well ... I have never studied and worked with two decks at the same time before, so it is a little alien to me. I have had the Thoth for a number of years and always said I would spend some time with it. It was one of those decks I was waiting for a lengthy amount of time to get really involved with and I do have quite a lot of time to spend with it at the moment. One of the things that really helped was pulling out about sixteen readings I had done with it before - I had feedback from people enclosed with the readings and I was so surprised and a little emotional by the kind words given from querents, saying that the readings were spot on and that I had helped them in some way. I had forgotten how perceptive my intuition was at that point so I laid out the cards and went through each reading that I had noted down. It kind of opened a door. Part of me was thinking 'I cannot imagine ever being able to read this well again' but another part of me was looking at the cards and they were beginning to change in my eyes. What had looked very pale and weishy-washy in the afternoon, was starting to fill up with colour, like when you see something thawing out of ice and coming back to life in movies.. I realised that I was just 'looking at the images' and working with them, rather than worrying about whether 'this' was right or 'that' went along with the views of an author in a book. It was very enlightening. I drew to cards this evening for reflection tomorrow and after the experience of going through the old readings and 're-aquainting', I felt like I was actually reading them again - words started spilling out of my mouth as I began to type up what I thought their interpretation was. For now, I have put away all books and am working solely with the cards. I think, if anything, I have learnt something today and hopefully began to revive the intuitive skills that got burried under constant research and reading into numbers and their significance. Of course, in time, I want to build on those things as well, but now, I think that the reason that I couldn't get into the Thoth (or any deck recently) was down to the fact that I wasn't allowing myself to open up to the language of its images. LB

Little Baron	22 Jun 2005
Oh, and another thing - about a week ago, I read a passage in Terry Donaldson's book 'Step-by-Step Tarot' where he suggests you make worksheets for the cards. I am not necessarily going to do this but what he said, in principle, made sense. He said to look at the 'image' and not down memories and people that the cards bring to mind - an exercise he says is good if you have no knowledge of the tarot (or in this case, the deck). He said that to weave in your own life with the traditional meanings adds depth and to understand the querent and their situations, you need to make 'friends' with your own personal history and what you feel from the cards. I may try this tomorrow. He uses the Morgan Greer as an example but I suppose that the Thoth could work just as well - looking at the colours, placements and symbols in the cards with a fresh outlook. LB

rachelcat	23 Jun 2005
Looks like you got a dose of Ace of Wands inspiration, too! Congratulations and keep up the good work! I am really enjoying my daily meditations, but I know to get the most out of them, I have to journal the insights that I get from them. With your story of studying your previous readings, you have inspired (!) me to make that a priority. Thanks very much.

Little Baron	23 Jun 2005
You're welcome ... Rachelcat. I spent a little time today going through the cards in order, alongside a site that a link was posted to in an old thread here. It was really interesting to see an overview of the cards, alongside a table of what the symbols meant etc etc. I only got up to 'Art' but it is starting to sink in. The most amazing thing is - when I read them before, I remember getting a real feel for the deck - really getting into the cards. The last couple of times I fanned through them, they felt lifeless and really vague. As I have started working with them, a really strange thing has happened. The colours are feeling so bright - intense. It is like they are charged up to a plug socket. They look anything but lifeless now - they have come alive. I had forgotten about those readings and when I found them, they transported me back to that time. I had to look at the images of the cards to see where I was 'coming from' and slowly, I started to look at the cards in the same way again. It was like meeting up with an old friend you havn't seen in a while - first there are uncomfortable silences and then you start to laugh about the old times as you get more used to each others company; then you decide to meet again. I hope my relationship continues to flourish with this deck again. I don't want to rush things with it; however, a friend of mine is coming round his evening and says she wants a reading. I can't think of any other deck I feel remotely connected to at the moment so I might take this one out into the garden and give it a go. I am hoping it will be a nice long evening where we can sit and talk our way through the cards slowly. LB

Sphinxmoth	23 Jun 2005
Hi to LB and rachelcat, 'n Emily 'n all.. I am brand new on the board. I, too, have been sitting in the garden for three days, enthralled and enraptured by my new Thoth deck. Well, it took that long on the path of my development to discover this deck.. I knew it was there, but glossed over it and gave it short shrift for all these years, somehow ignoring the fact that it is such a popular deck.. maybe I just wasn't "ready" for it? I was never attracted by the images, at least not the ones I had seen, and never picked up or handled a deck. Until last week. Then I did. And ZING went the strings of my heart.. I did a very smart thing (*finally* listening to good and common advice) and bought DuQuette's book along with the deck, and I cannot keep my hands off of this deck of cards. I may collect and paw over and play with other decks, but I doubt I will ever want to read another deck. I mostly used the Rider-Waite, and also the Blake deck, and those were good for me, but they didn't grab me and suck me in like this deck has done. No deck has. I have a few decks, just over a dozen, and I enjoy them and the art, but I never did *feel* any of them. This deck just hums and sings and rumbles and glows at me. I have Crowley's Thoth book on order, but similia's advice I think is good, I don't think I would jump into Crowley without a little background and prep for it, which DuQuette provides in a very accessible way. I am ready now to tackle The Beast. What I want to do now, is have a big schematic diagram (like on paper or parchment) of the Tree of Life so that I can lay out the trumps along the appropriate paths between the ten sephiroth. (And it's gotta be big, cause I was laying the cards out in that pattern on the patio table anyway, and it takes up a lot of room to do). Does anyone know if such a thing exists? If not, I will take a couple sheets of mulberry paper and paste them together and draw out my own, what would be even better would be to have the tree of life printed out on a silk scarf that one could wrap the deck in and also use on a table to lay spreads out on top of. Again, newbie greetings to you all. moth

Little Baron	23 Jun 2005
Hey Moth Welcome to the board. You have echoed a few of the feelings I have had since I returned to the Thoth. It is a nice feeling, isn't it. I have been struggling with other decks and all the time this one has been sitting in the basket. I will have to get that Duquette book. I am wondering if I can order it through my bookshop. I like the idea of the spread-cloth. I have some dark plain fabric here. Maybe I could use a gold pen to draw the ToL onto it. I am guessing that looking into the Kabbalah is going to help with this deck. I do have some books on the Kabbalah but they are quite tough on the brain. Look forward to talking to you more about the Thoth ... feel free to write more about the deck in this thread if you want to, or otherwise I will catch up with you in your own threads. Best, LB

Emily	23 Jun 2005
Hi Sphinxmoth, Welcome to AT :) I love that feeling when you really connect with a deck and you can't wait to hear what it has to say. :) I'm proceeding gently along with my Thoth, using the large green-tinted one at the moment, I hated this deck at first but I'm really beginning to appreciate its subtle colouring - and to think I once thought it was green and sickly. I've actively posted on my distaste of this version (now these posts will probably come back and haunt me lol). I also like the keywords on them - I think they fit with the cards. I love the idea of a Tree of Life spread cloth, although if you used the large cards it would be massive lol

Little Baron	23 Jun 2005
I know what you mean, Emily, it is a nice feeling. Thanks for the idea about the cloth Moth. It really is a good one! I agree. Emily, I quite like the look of the green tinted Thoth. I have never seen one in person but I like the 'edge' it has. LB

Emily	23 Jun 2005
Hi LB, I had real problems with my green Thoth mainly because I'd bought it second hand and don't know its history. The feelings that it gave me were very negative to the point I couldn't handle it. It took alot of hard work to get comfortable with this deck but once I did, and I could touch it without feeling sick, I had a real feeling that it was begging to be used and so I did - I put my other Thoths to the side and use this one. I've never had a bad reading with it lol - I can't read it that well, I struggle but I enjoy using it. We still have off-days when the negativity can surface then I just shuffle it and put it away. I'd have another Green Thoth, the colours are washed with green but it does make the deck feel different, some of the details are more paler, not as defined as a normal coloured deck but I've grown to love it.

Whitestar	23 Jun 2005
Hi, I've been interested in the Thoth deck for a long time, but have been avoiding getting one for myself. Once upon a time I had my cards read with this deck, but first I was warned that the Toth deck was not "hermetically sealed" and that doing a reading with it could actually MAKE things occur. I went ahead with the one reading, but have stayed away from it myself because of it. Does anyone have thoughts about this? Thanks, Whitestar

Alta	23 Jun 2005
Whitestar wrote: I was warned that the Toth deck was not "hermetically sealed" and that doing a reading with it could actually MAKE things occur. I went ahead with the one reading, but have stayed away from it myself because of it. Your profile says you have been reading for 15 years. Honestly, have you ever seen tarot cards 'make' things happen? The cards bring up thoughts and ideas, which may indeed cause events to occur. But the cards themselves have no properties that cause events to happen in the world.

Whitestar	23 Jun 2005
Thanks Marion for responding...I'm a tad embarrassed here, but it was nice to put the question out there and have a response :). It was just something that stayed with me, for some reason, even though reason told me to forget it!!!

Nevada	23 Jun 2005
If Thoth is calling to you, then it's time to pick up those cards! :) Thoth was my second deck (after Voyager Tarot) back in 1988 or so. It's been my main reading deck for most of the years since. I started out knowing nothing about it and just using the little white book. Then I got Gerd Ziegler's Tarot: Mirror of the Soul, which is an interpretation specifically for the Thoth. Some Crowley afficionados don't like it, but I used that book a lot and got loads out of it for myself. Back then I knew nothing about reading intuitively. But you aren't new to Tarot as a whole, as I was back then, so I think your approach should be different. If you read other decks intuitively, try starting out that way. The Thoth images speak volumes in themselves. If you prefer studying the symbolism, you might try getting two or three books with a wide range of information, such as Crowley's Book of Thoth, Gerd Ziegler's and DuQuette's, or someone else's. But mainly I think I'd just start reading with it and getting to know the cards. For every deck I've ever had, doing daily readings for a while has gotten me quickly over my first feelings of strangeness. Nevada

Sphinxmoth	23 Jun 2005
LittleBuddha wrote: Hey Moth Welcome to the board. You have echoed a few of the feelings I have had since I returned to the Thoth. It is a nice feeling, isn't it. I have been struggling with other decks and all the time this one has been sitting in the basket. I will have to get that Duquette book. I am wondering if I can order it through my bookshop. I like the idea of the spread-cloth. I have some dark plain fabric here. Maybe I could use a gold pen to draw the ToL onto it. I am guessing that looking into the Kabbalah is going to help with this deck. I do have some books on the Kabbalah but they are quite tough on the brain. Look forward to talking to you more about the Thoth ... feel free to write more about the deck in this thread if you want to, or otherwise I will catch up with you in your own threads. Best, LB (I'm rereading replies a little more carefully) DuQuette's book gives you a crash-course-Kabbalah-in-a-nutshell primer that is very useful. It gives one a firmer footing very quickly. I have a book or two on the Kabbalah, too, that maybe I will be able to pick up and take another crack at, having had some basic things explained and put into context. My admiration for DuQuette knows no bounds. fabric paint is a good idea.. *moth muses* *little sparks and pops go off in the air above Moth's head when she gets Bright Ideas*

Emily	24 Jun 2005
I was going to mention 'Mirror of the Soul' - I was sat reading it last night after finding it out again, I'd never really sat down with it before but from what I've read so far, I like it. This book was first published in German and translated so the language used and the way its written is appealing in a strange way lol. Just to add onto my green Thoth posting - I'm pretty sensitive to vibrations anyway, electricity can effect me, so I think that the male who owned my Thoth before me must have connected very deeply with this deck - I just picked up on the left-over vibrations before I was able to get mine on. The fact that it was a Thoth was just coincidence, it might just as easily been a RWS or any other deck. The ability to read comes from within and even then the results aren't set in stone - I believe my destiny changes all the time - but maybe reading the tarot gives me a little more insight of what could happen.

Strange2	25 Jun 2005
For your reference, here is a site that has text from Crowley's Book of Thoth, plus text from the little white books included with the Thoth deck: http://www.rahoorkhuit.net/library/thoth/ Enjoy... and Shine On!

The Muddled up with decks ... whispers from Crowley thread was originally posted on 22 Jun 2005 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.