The chopping block

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 11 Mar 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Moonklad	11 Mar 2002
A question for all. I am thinking about raising some chickens for meat and eggs and its got me thinking about the hard facts of having to...er..butcher them. It makes me cringe to think of it. I am so soft-hearted. But on the other hand it seems like we have gotten so out of touch with the food sources around us that we "forget" that all those neat frozen chickens in the market were once clucking around.As a non-vegetarian I suppose I should have the guts to be able to kill my own food. Its just easier looking at a frozen, store-bought chicken breast than having to look a real chicken in the eye before dinner. I keep telling myself that at least I wont have to worry that the chicken is mistreated and of course I would only feed organic foods as possible. still....I dont know if I can do it. My question to you.. What do you think? If you had to kill all your own meat...would you become a vegetarian? curiously in wait, Moonklad

truthsayer	11 Mar 2002
i know when i was a teenager i was able to fish and crab w/o remorse for what i killed. i grew up on a farm and saw butchering first hand. back then it seemed totally natural to kill our food but i've grown squemish since those days. my life then seems so far removed from how i get food today. it reminds me of so many things we've become removed from in the past 50 years that our parents parents did to survive. it's possible i could overcome years of conditioning against killing if it meant my survival. i have tried being a vegetarian and the diet really isn't that bad. many dishes i still enjoy and cook when i can. it would be easier for me to deal vegetarianism than the moral implications of killing anything other than some fish and crabs. gardening is a learned art so if you plan to completely grow your own food allow yourself a few years to get a system down.

slinky_jo	11 Mar 2002
It may seem like a silly question, but have you considered becoming a vegetarian?!??! Your chickens could give you yummy and great free range eggs - ever noticed how free range eggs are tastier and yellower than battery eggs? Ok, so being a vegie myself, I'm a little biased! But remember that animals aren't on this planet so we can kill em and eat em - but THAT'S another debate that probably doesn't belong on this forum. But please consider this. Also, if you had a reasonable amount of land, think of all the fruit and veges you could grow and eat as well. If I were you, I would take this as a opportunity to make a fresh start in your life. Ok, enough preaching - but maybe this will give you "food for thought" so to speak! LOL :D

Liliana	11 Mar 2002
I guess Im more an equal oppurtunity eater. Why should we place animals above plants? They are both living creatures, I dont know if I hurt that tomato when I take it off the vine. Animals werent put here just to be eaten, but the food chain is there, even in the animal kingdom one species kills another for food. I have to eat something, so I prefer to balance it out among the animals and the plants since I consider them equally important (its the bugs i cant stand lol, actually I consider them equal too)

jade	12 Mar 2002
now i'm going to let you all know right now that if this thread gets out of hand, i'll close it down :) that said. i HAVE given this lots of thought and as a vegan for many years because of the treatment of animals........ if we get some land where we can grow our own food, love it, care for it and give it a good life........then i don't see why it would be considered a bad thing to eat it. i would rather eat food that was loved rather than the chickens that are raised with their feet never touching the ground! so in answer to your question.........yes, i would. i would be proud to know that i gave this animal a good life, a great life before it became my sunday brunch LOL love jade

Malachite	12 Mar 2002
I've always thought that if i ever did go veggie, it would be because of conditions, not food-ethics...lots of animals are treated VERY badly. Maybe when I have control of my own larder, next year, I will try and stick to 'free-range' as much as possible, although we already only use f/r eggs... re: vegetarianism, I dont see why we should separate ourselves from the rest of the animal kingdom so much.. "or the wolf? should he pull his own teeth out of his head?" ~hans magnus enzensburger~ I consider omnivory part of our evolutionary heritage...i'd just rather eat a wild deer than a crippled, disease-ridden, frothing at the mouth farm cow... btw...please, if i have offended anyone, wait to see if jade deletes this post before replying.. although I hope i haven't...we're all reasonably mature here..:)

Kiama	12 Mar 2002
I have been giving great thought to vegan... However, I don't think I will. I would be able to go veggie, but at the moment,whilst I'm still living at home, it is impossible. I will be going veggie next year for a couple of reasons, mainly, cuz meat is expensive. But also, until I get my own place where I can grow the food, I don't know how they've been brought up or treated. I also don't have a problem growing my own chickens for food, but I just had a thought: You wouldn't have meat very often, would you? You can't have too many chickens, cuz they take up too much space, and they don't grow as quickly as plants, so you won't have a chicken ready for dinner very often! But I don't think I'd have a problem killing a chicken I raised, as long as I didn't have to actually put my hands on its neck and wring it. I'd prefer to just use a chopping block... My boyfriend's family, when he was about five had a pet goose for about a year. He and his sister both got really attached to it, named it, fed it, etc... They really loved it as a pet. But then, half way through Chrismas dinner, his Dad blurted out that they were actually eating the pet goose that Simon so loved! he wasn't very happy, and refused to eat anymore, crying his eye out.... I just think that's really sad! I remember when I was about 7, my Grandad had just killed a turkey for dinner one evening, and I watched with fascination as he gutted it, and prepared it. I remember that it actually had very small eggs inside it, which I thought was amazing.... Just the way the turkey's body was arranged and stuff.... I didn't have a problem eating it for dinner that evening either. I suppose I wouldn't mind growing my own food, and I'd pobably be alot richer if I did, cuz its cheaper than buying it from the supermarket! Kiama

catlin	12 Mar 2002
I remember how my grandmother told me what happened when she was told as a girl to butcher a chicken for the first time in her life. She did not manage to cut off the chicken's head properly so the poor beast ran around with only half of its head cut off, blood spurting everywhere. Her grandma finished it off, then. Guess you should make sure that there is someone around who could finish it off properly.

Diana	12 Mar 2002
I don't think we're answering Moonklad's question, here, albeit the interesting points of view everyone has given (each as valid as the other in my opinion). When I lived in West Africa for some time, in a village with no electricity, running water and such things, there were no fridges around to keep our food cool, and no supermarkets. In the dry period, fruit and vegetables were very hard to find. So we ate lamb and chicken an awful lot (as well as bush-rats, but that's another story :D ) But never, never, never, could I bring myself to kill one. I saw our sheep's throat being cut, our chicken's head being chopped, and each time my heart gave a lurch. Luckily we had lovely neighbours who very willingly did this work for us. I suppose if they had not been around, I would have slowly, slowly got used to doing it myself. I would have had no choice. And if one day I have to do this, I would definitely always explain to the animal before I killed it why I am doing it, thank it for it's sacrifice, and pray for it's soul.

Kaz	12 Mar 2002
I don't consider myself a vegetarian, and I am not coz I do eat meat sometimes, mainly if I go out for dinner. I cook it maybe once in 2 weeks at home. About the killing of animals, where I grew up, I had a friend and his farther hunted for fasants (pheasants?) and rabbits, stuff like that. I went along numerous times and send the dogs for retrieving the shot animals. I did finish them off if they were still alive. After that, we had to clean them, skin them and get the insides out of the body. We just did it coz it was part of the job and it was normal, didn't know otherwise. And the food tasted good. So, yes, I know I can do it if I have to, but I prefer to eat as less meat as possible, I don't really care for meat. I like fish better anyway, though I never go out to catch them. If I had more land than I have now, I wouldn't use it to grow animals for food-purposes. Kaz

purplelady	12 Mar 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Liliana I guess Im more an equal oppurtunity eater. Why should we place animals above plants? They are both living creatures, I dont know if I hurt that tomato when I take it off the vine. Animals werent put here just to be eaten, but the food chain is there, even in the animal kingdom one species kills another for food. I have to eat something, so I prefer to balance it out among the animals and the plants since I consider them equally important (its the bugs i cant stand lol, actually I consider them equal too) I agree that when you really think about it , plants are living creatures too , just as we are, and the animals are. It is our biased judgement that ranks us above the animals, above the plants........ HOWEVER, tomatoes, potatoes, apples and oranges WILL fall off the tree , wither, and rot , and become food for some animal or fertilizer for the ground. Therefore, I conclude that it does not hurt the apple , orange , or potatoe to be picked and eaten , especially if it is ripe...........but then , who knows , I haven't actually Asked the apple or the tomatoe! It seems to me though , that in the natural scheme of nature , that apples are there for the picking and meant to be eaten . Animals seem a little different , you do have to actually kill it and hurt it. I do believe that the majority of people are Way far removed from the reality of it when they go to the supermarket and pick a chicken breast or a pork loin off the butcher shelf! Should everyone have to kill their own meat? Maybe it would put us in touch with the reality of it , and at least then people would be making more of an informed decision whether they decide to eat meat or not. I am not a vegetarian , and truthfully in my book the verdict isn't in yet as to whether 1) people are naturally vegetarians or meat eaters? 2) it is right or wrong or moral or immoral to eat meat 3) it is actually better or healthier to eat meat or not eat meat . Will we live longer , will we get all our vitamins? Will children develope properly if they never eat meat? I think about it but simply am not certain. One thing I definitely know though , that naturally raised , free range , or whatever animals , animals raised on food natural for them , and Not given a bunch of drugs and antibiotics , and treated grossly and totally unnaturally and cruelly have GOT to be much much more desirable in every way , morally and otherwise , than , unfortunately , most of the meat we pick up at the supermarket today that are treated unnaturally. That to me is the worst , the way our mass produced meat is raised and treated today. That has somehow got to be very wrong.

Liliana	12 Mar 2002
I live in the middle of Amish country, a couple miles out of town I can see the cows that give me my milk or my dinner hehe I also know they are treated VERY well by the Amish, so maybe Im unusual :) An argument could be made thatanimals will eventually die anyway so killing them mercifully might be better than a natural slow painful death, both benefit, but maybe thats just mehehe

Moonklad	12 Mar 2002
Thanks for you interesting comments all. Some very good points raised here. The jury is still out on my part. I don't know if i CAN do it. Morally and spiritually, I think its the better choice if one chooses to eat meat. The vegetarian/omnivore debate has many different issues involved. I respect those on both ends of the spectrum. It always has me wondering though...for the vegetarians that choose that option because they think killing animals is wrong. Does the size of the animal make a difference? I know vegetarians that have no problem taking an antibiotic, yet bacteria are animals. They use disinfectants and unless they eat 100% organic...bugs are killed, by man, to keep those plants they eat nice and pest free. And what about animal by products..like leather. Whats better..a leather shoe made from a cattle hide..or rubber, synthetic versions that pollute the atmosphere in their production.?What about something as benign as milk? Dairy cows are forced to give birth year after year to calves that are sold to veal farms..for food and the dairy cows themselves eventually end up on the table. I know thats a bit extreme examples..but valid to me nonetheless. From my religious point of view..animals are just as sacred as plants therefore eating plants or animals is the same ethical debate. Its true that some parts of plants can be eaten without killing the plant..but not very practical and I would venture to say..almost impossible to sustain life. It may not be much of a contribution..but in the end..my body will go back into the earth..to make soil..for plants to grow and animals to feed off of..so in the end..I guess the plants and animals will have their revenge. This is an issue I could really loose myself in..so for now....... Moonklad

jade	12 Mar 2002
i would like to congratulate you all for using such a calm rational mode of communication in this thread. thanks :) i'm so proud. :) i found no one out of line, even a little ;) personally, i think that raising an animal, whether it's a cat, dog, chicken or pig as a pet and not telling your children that they will be eating it later.............that's just not fair or right. i send hugs. in light, jade :)

truthsayer	13 Mar 2002
jade, what you said about raising an animal for food reminds me of something that happened to my father when he was a little boy. back then chicks were sold at easter sometimes dyed for children. his mother bought him some. he lovingly raised them as pets and then she butchered them when they were grown!! my father was so upset that he hasn't eaten chicken since then. he's now 62. he raises chickens now as pets but will use their eggs. so i agree with making sure any children involved understand the purpose behind raising livestock. i saw how it traumatized my father. strange thing tho is that he can eat turkey!

Emily	14 Mar 2002
Hi Truthsayer, Your story brought back memories for me lol When I was little, 5 or 6, my Nan used to take me and my sister to a favourite Auntie. She always used to have what she called 'fowl' (chickens) in her back yard. The highlight of our visit was when she would let us play and feed these chickens. This carried on for a few months then one Sunday we went round with Nan, looked out back and no chickens, being little me and my sister didn't think anything of it. The visit finished, we were about to leave and Auntie said that we could take a couple of fowl back for our Mom. I actually though she was going to let us take a couple of these birds that we had played with and fed for months home with us. And she did all plucked and oven ready :( 'Cause the flood gates opened, we realised all the chickens were gone, I didn't eat chicken for years after that and even though right up-until she died she raised chicks to eating fowl I never fed or played with them again. lol

The The chopping block thread was originally posted on 11 Mar 2002 in the Chat board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Chat, or read more archived threads.