corrective surgery on unborn children
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 22 Apr 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| jade |
22 Apr 2002 |
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how do you feel about corrective surgery on unborn children.
attached is an article and then a photo regarding the article (which is sooo beautiful by the way).
so do we interfere in the child's path and use our technology or is it the child's path to experience our technology?
~~~
Read the story before opening the picture - its amazing!
A picture began circulating in November. It should be "The Picture
of the Year," or perhaps, "Picture of the Decade." It won't be. In fact,
unless you obtained a copy of the paper, you probably will never see it. The
picture is that of a 21-week-old unborn baby named Samuel Alexander Armas, who is being operated on by a surgeon named Joseph Bruner. The baby was diagnosed with spina bifida and would not survive if removed from his mother's womb.
Little Samuel's mother, Julie Armas, is an obstetrics nurse in Atlanta.
She knew of Dr.Bruner's remarkable surgical procedure. Practicing at
Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville, he performs these
special operations while the baby is still in the womb.
During the procedure, the doctor removes the uterus via C-section
and makes a small incision to operate on the baby. During the surgery on
little Samuel, the little guy reached his tiny, but fully developed, hand
through the incision and firmly grasped the surgeon's finger. The
photograph captures this amazing event with perfect clarity. The editors titled the picture, "Hand of Hope." The text explaining
the picture begins, "The tiny hand of 21-week-old fetus Samuel
Alexander Armas emerges from the mother's uterus to grasp the finger of Dr.
Joseph Bruner as if thanking the doctor for the gift of life." Little
Samuel's mother said they "wept for days" when they saw the picture. She
said, "The photo reminds us my pregnancy isn't about disability or an
illness, it's about a little person." "The Hand" of the fetus. You can see the
actual picture, and it is awesome...incredible. And hey, pass it on.The
world needs to see this one.
(i can't get the photo to load since it's too big, i'll send it to kaz and have her add it to this thread)
in light,
jade
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| Kiama |
22 Apr 2002 |
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To aswer this, I believe the best thing to do is put myself in an expectant mother's shoes.... And I have come to the conclusion that if my unborn baby had spina bifida, or something of that 'caliber', I would go ahead with the surgery.
I think that for my baby to live a comfortable life, like that of children without any defects, to have a world of possibilities open to them would be preferential to gambling on their learning. I have trouble seeing such a defect as a learning experience, esp. when we now have the ability to cure it.
Kiama
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| Liliana |
22 Apr 2002 |
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I would choose to have the surgery for my children who are born if they needed it to live, why wouldnt I decide to do it on my unborn baby? Sure Id do it
:THP
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| Diana |
22 Apr 2002 |
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A heartfelt thank you to Dr. Joseph Bruner. I salute him for the hope he gives to future generations and to the parents who must nurture these children. And a big kiss to the little baby.
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| jade |
22 Apr 2002 |
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jenny,
thanks!
in light,
jade
ps but kaz worked hard on this so i'll attach it too :)
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| jade |
22 Apr 2002 |
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now to answer my own poll.
i would do possibly corrective surgery if the dis-ease or deformity was one that was not life threatening. if the surgery was corrective and could make further surgeries unnecc. i think would do it.
if the condition was life threatening....i wouldn't have it done. after birthing 3 children, i know that i have asked myself this question alot. for me......if they didn't survive, i believe that it was meant to be that way.
i seldom interfere in my life, i prefer to let it flow. (although the hormones and desires are strong when you are pregnant that's for sure)....so i think that i would allow my children's lives to flow also.
this is such a hard decision to make............to interfere or not. to heal or not. to assist or not.
wow, a biggie for sure.
jade
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| Butterfly |
22 Apr 2002 |
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Speaking as both a mother and someone who is pregnant I would do anything- anything to protect both of my children. The protectiveness and love I feel for them is fierce. It's intensity blows me away, it is like nothing I have ever felt, it's deep, it's primal, something I can barely put into words.
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| Emily |
22 Apr 2002 |
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After reading the report about corrective surgery, I think I would have to give my child the chance of a better life - I've just read the report with a lump in my throat, wondering if the child lived, if the surgery helped then read down to the bottom and seeing the pictures of Samuel - I think yes I would try corrective surgery while the child was still in the womb
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| purplelady |
22 Apr 2002 |
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I thought that polls wasted too much space on the forums?
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| cricket |
22 Apr 2002 |
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Absolutely not. This sounds wrong to many people, but I think that these children were meant to be this way for a reason. Not only do these types of surgeries help to conform the unborn children to the 'acceptable' norms of society, they also ruin the unique opportunities they have for growth in their own way.
I believe they should be left as they are. They should be given a chance to survive without all the procedures, the extra coddling before they're born, etc. After all, what's the use of spending the time, effort, finances, worry, etc. on something that could be lost before it even arrives?
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| truthsayer |
24 Apr 2002 |
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i have known far too many disabled children and adults. i've seen too much of the tremendous strain it puts on families to be against this surgery. maybe that kind of torment could absolve some karma but taking the risk of the surgery could also be part of repairing karma. think of the inspiration it creates even here? the life long guilt put on some parents is horrendous b/c they put a helpless person here. they fear dying and not knowing who will take care of their child or adult child when they are gone. some of these adult/children are taken in by relatives, some in group homes and others in institutions. but there is such a potential for physical and emotional abuse!!! there are the parents who don't really care about their disabled child but will do everything possible to manipulate the system to milk every possible dollar to their personal gain but not the child's.
if having a surgery that could prevent some of the horrors that i have seen then i am all for it!! no one deserves the terrible things i've seen ppl w/ disabilities(and their families) endure and i was helpless to stop it even when i tried. i'm a true advocate for underdogs and will always be one. :) if god/dess wasn't behind our developing the wondrous technology to create miracles like curing spina bifida then why did s/he support and encourage the research and its successes? i don't understand the bigger scheme of things but to me this surgery gives hope to couples who have a high genetic possibility of having a child w/ health problems. it's easier for a fetus to recover in utero from a corrective surgery while still growing and developing than to be outside the protection of mom's body.
sorry for my rant but i have strong feelings about this. to get a perspective on what it's like to be a parent in such a situation read "jewel" by brett lot. this child had down's syndrome instead of a treatable impairment but the parental guilt and even obsession rings true.
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| Kiama |
25 Apr 2002 |
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That really has brightened up my whole day... (I'm feeling all broody now too!)
It really is amazing what doctors can do these days...
Kiama
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| Sam |
17 Jun 2002 |
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this is such a cute story! it gives hope everywhere!
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| slinky_jo |
18 Jun 2002 |
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Originally posted by Liliana
I would choose to have the surgery for my children who are born if they needed it to live, why wouldnt I decide to do it on my unborn baby? Sure Id do it
:THP
ABSOLUTELY!!!
Also there is a small chance that any children I have will have the same affliction as my sister - Klippel Feil Syndrome (which is incurable/inopperable) - so then there is the dilema of abortion - another controversial subject...
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| AutumnMoonfire |
21 Jun 2002 |
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I think it is going to depend on the condition, the chances with and without surgery and on many other factors, this stuff isn't cut and dried and it is going to get even murkier as the possibilities unfold.
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| Lightlike |
11 Jul 2002 |
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Speaking as a baby born, 2 pounds, 8 ounces, way too premature and the doctors feeling my death(fate) was certain--the doctor stopped my dad at the payphone and told him, "Sir, I wouldn't make any calls your daughter isn't going to make it through the night." My dad pulled out his credit cards and military id and replied, "Well you get her somewhere that she will have a chance. Fast."
I'm so glad my parents choose to fight for me and fight against death.
If I were pregnant, I would definately fight for my unborn child if the need arised, even if it put my life at risk. My family fought for me, they helped me overcome cerebal palsy and they stuck by me even though there was little hope and a lot of debt. I would not be here if my family had said it was fate and did nothing.
I couldn't live with the thought that I could have done something to save someone's life but didn't, especially if it was my child's life. Could you?
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| Jimilyn |
12 Jul 2002 |
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Oh, Lightlike! What a beautiful story of a parent's love! I'm glad that your dad stuck up for you and that your parents fought for you and stood by you through thick and thin. What heroes they are! :)
Hugs,
Jimilyn
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| wavebreaker |
12 Jul 2002 |
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Originally posted by AutumnMoonfire
I think it is going to depend on the condition, the chances with and without surgery and on many other factors, this stuff isn't cut and dried and it is going to get even murkier as the possibilities unfold.
I agree with you AutumnMoonfire. If there's a good chance the surgery will help, then I'd say yes. I do believe that there's a reason that we did get this far in technology, so why not use it?
As long as it's not used "just because it can be done".
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| suzyspellbound |
12 Jul 2002 |
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I can't even think what to write im so emotional! He is soooo beautiful - I went with Yes on the surgery. Lightlike your story was beatiful too thanks for sharing it!
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| truthsayer |
12 Jul 2002 |
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lightlike, your story brought tears to my eyes. it really makes me feel better about the human race to know there are families out there willing to fight for their children w/ disabilities. you must be as much a blessing to them as they are to you. ((((((((((((lightlike))))))))))))))
i have a cousin who has been unable to bring to term a normal healthy baby. she had a miscarriage and then a premie who died after a few months. her last pregnancy was w/ a spina bifida baby. the doctor advised her to have an abortion but she refused. she now has a beautiful son. yes, he can't walk but he is certainly quite loved.
i don't know understand the ways of the world. in past centuries and still in other parts of the world infanticide is still committed against disabled or other unwanted babies. my understanding is that infanticide is common in india against baby girls. here in the USA it's considered a crime. i used to work as a nurse's aid to a young man w/ severe cerebral palsy. he was unable to walk or talk but he had a brilliant mind. he went to college as far as graduate school. he married and had children-even held a job! a contributor to the good of society. but what haunts me about him is a story he wrote about his disability where he closed w/ if he had been born centuries ago would he have been left out to die. that would be such a waste b/c even tho he trapped in his body, his intelligence is very much alive and he has much to give.
technology has done so much to open doors and save the lives of persons w/ disabilities. i hope very much to see it continue.
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| Lightlike |
12 Jul 2002 |
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Thank you for sharing both the those insipiring stories. Your stories also brought tears to my eyes. Perhaps people with disablities soul propose is to teach others about unconditional love and courage. At least I hope that our disabilities serve a purpose and offer inspiration to others...
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| truthsayer |
12 Jul 2002 |
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Originally posted by Lightlike
Thank you for sharing both the those insipiring stories. Your stories also brought tears to my eyes. Perhaps people with disablities soul propose is to teach others about unconditional love and courage. At least I hope that our disabilities serve a purpose and offer inspiration to others...
i have to agree, lightlike. i used to work w/ ppl w/ disabilities so those 2 stories are only one of many i could tell about inspiring ppl w/ disabilities. of course, i've met plenty who were a might big pain in the butt, too! however, i think the lesson is we are all human and have plenty to teach each other. we just need to be receptive for the lesson.
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| mondk |
15 Jul 2002 |
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I feel compelled to reply here; I answered yes definitely by the way. My hubby and I have to do fertility meds and treatments in order to try to become pregnant. The medications I'm on carry a high chance of multiples and I am on a certain medication that depletes the body of folic acid, which is the main cause of spina bifida. Knowing this, and being the kind of person who soaks knowledge up like a sponge in order to know what we could be up against, I have read almost everything under the sun about this condition (spina bifida).
I therefore, would have to say, yes, definitely because if I become pregnant with a child with this condition despite the extra folic acid I take, it would be partly my fault and there is no way I could live with that if my child had to suffer.
Blessings all, M.
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| La La |
15 Jul 2002 |
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how precious - how fragile
Divinity speaks in the actions of our children and this picture illustrates it perfectly.
My children often wonder when they are busy playing or working and they notice me standing in the doorway watching them and smiling why I should be so happy when nothing special is happening.
I tell them I'm being still so I can hear god speak.
(telling me THIS is what life's all about)
I've heard it said that our spirits make some life choices before we are born. We are said to choose our challenges (and our families). These children deserve our support and admiration - they have chosen the hard path, but I'm sure the spiritual rewards will be huge for both themselves and their families and friends.
IT'S ALL ABOUT ATTITUDE
This picture has a special message for me. I'm currently embarking on a totally new project with the company I work for (a youth theatre company) which is the work of a senior student with cerebral palsy. It's a play about her life struggles with disabled attitudes of the able bod's she's come across, and her determination to achieve the things those disabled minds have said are not for her.
Her body is often unco-operative and her voice isn't always clear but her mind is so sharp, her wit delightful, and her attitude is truly inspiring. I am just a humble pair of hands that types for her at this stage but we're recruiting other 4 wheelers and aim to get this show up by the end of the year. Her message is to other 4 wheelers and their families about being tenacious and living your dreams. she has a wonderful title "THINK OUTSIDE THE CHAIR YOU LIVE IN" and I'm sure it will inspire audiences as this picture has inspired us all.
Bravely we battle the ignorance with HOPE LOVE & FAITH
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| jade |
15 Jul 2002 |
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but la la does that mean you would or wouldn't have the surgery done? sorry i'm confused.
mondk,
i send you abundance of fertility energy and healthy outcomes and of course, a large portion of huggles (the chocolate hugs that always work the best!)
{{{huggles}}}
love and light,
jade
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| La La |
15 Jul 2002 |
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Without a doubt.
I would be honoured to be chosen by such a child, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be seeking the very best advantages for them and if surgery were an option that would improve their quality of life without risk of harm I'd take it.
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| suzyspellbound |
15 Jul 2002 |
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La La I love what you wrote, that person (and you) are really inspiring I wish I could come and see it! I read in the artical that the surgery was so radical because the risks out weighed the possible benifits. Does this effect the way you feel? ANyone?
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| La La |
15 Jul 2002 |
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Suzyspellbound asked: 'DOES THIS EFFECT THE WAY YOU FEEL?"
OK this is were it gets hard,
If it's not a life threatening situation, how do you make a decision on behalf of another that will determine/effect the quality of their life (A HUGE RESPONSIBILITY) when the outcome isn't guaranteed? (A DEFINITE GAMBLE)
Especially when (a) they are already facing a guaranteed disability and (b) they are not able to make the choice themselves or even communicate their feelings?
Like I said before, I'd do it if there weren't risks of further irreversible complications.
Here's a quote for your digestion:
WHO WOULD RUN THAT'S MODERATELY WISE A CERTAIN DANGER FOR A DOUBTFUL PRIZE?
If divinity has determined my baby should be disabled then it's my responsibility to give my child the best quality of life I can offer that doesn't include putting them at risk for vain hopes.
Being disabled puts you in a position where thru-out your life people will be trying to make decisions for you.
Despite being disabled you want to be as independant as possible and making decisions for yourself is an important part of that.
As a parent it's important that you look at all the options and outcomes and make sure that your decisions are made in the best interests of your childs quality of life.
Research the condition, and don't just talk to the medico's talk to people living with the disability, talk to them about the options and outcomes, discuss their thoughts on the situation. Ask them about quality of life.
To say no to surgery may not be a wrong answer.
Meditate long and hard
Seek advise from EVERY quarter
Keep a journal of your thoughts and share this with your child when they are old enough to understand
It's not an easy answer and one never knows for sure how to decide until you're there
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| mondk |
16 Jul 2002 |
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Jade: thanks so much; but put it off for a few months (sending me the fertile thoughts); since I am starting a new job and need to pay my clinic for my last treatment before I can start the next one, we are taking a few months off. It is actually a much-needed break and this job is something I've been waiting a long time for (fairly easy with a high salary)!!!
But thank you for thinking of me!!!!
Blessings, M.
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| jade |
16 Jul 2002 |
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you got it!
love
jade
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| suzyspellbound |
08 Aug 2002 |
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just wanted to bump this up because its relevant to anothere thread and i didn't know how to add a thread attatchment into a reply!
thanks
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The corrective surgery on unborn children thread was originally posted on 22 Apr 2002 in the Chat board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Chat, or read more archived threads.
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