How do you guys feel about homosexuality?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Apr 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Mystick Dragon	04 Apr 2002
I thought this would be a good debate to bring up. I'm NOT homo, but a friend of mine is. I just want to know what you guys think of it. --Dragon

jade	04 Apr 2002
it is completely as normal and natural as heterosexuality or bi-sexuality. there is nothing to accept, nothing out of the ordinary. i have friends that fall into pretty much every catagory we could create and i find that uniqueness to be magical :) in light, jade

Silence Dogood	04 Apr 2002
'Homo' can be taken as a negative term; stick to 'gay' instead.

RedWood	04 Apr 2002
I think that if you choose to be gay its your choice..Personally I am unsure about the morals of homosexualty..I don't know if I per say condone it..I certainly don't comdemn anyone.. I have friends who are gay...If they ever asked me to go to a gay rights movement..I can honestly say I don't know if I would or not.

Diana	04 Apr 2002
I don't remember now who mentioned this in a post some time back, but it summed up what I think. The meaning of the post was something like this : I have a dream : that one day people will not feel the need to ask this question. That, gay and hetero, black and white, will just be considered "people", and that the white heteros, the black gays and vice versa will just all live harmoniously together.

funkpuss	04 Apr 2002
Hi I don't see anything wrong with it but my ex-boyfriend told me that he is Bi then he said that he wasn't so we have split up for a while. I don't know if we will get back together it's not because of his sexuality but he could of told me things before as I was very open with him. It's a thing called trust. My sister is bi but she won't admit it even though she has been living with another woman for a few years now. She hates mean but would still sleep with one. She's just messed up big time. I've been to gay clubs etc. but I do thing that some gay people do give each other a bad name because not all gay people have mad rapant sex with eachother. FP

faunabay	04 Apr 2002
VERY VERY WELL PUT DIANA!!!!!

Kiama	04 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by RedWood I have friends who are gay...If they ever asked me to go to a gay rights movement..I can honestly say I don't know if I would or not. I nearly went to one up in London a couple of years back with my friend, who I recently found out was gay. I didn't have the money to get up there though! :( I also think its an injustice that in some countries, the age of consent for homoexual sex is higher than that of heterosexual sex. What, do gays have less maturity than hets or something? Are they less capable of making decent choices? Luckily, the UK is fairly open-monded on this one, and recently changed the age to 16 for all types of sex. (Finally!) Personally, I see no ethical problems with homosexuality/bisexuality. Its just as loving and legitimate as heterosexual sex, and it doesn't change the person. What I mean is, just because a friend of mine, for example, has just 'come out', doesn't mean he/she is a different person to who they were before I knew! I judge people after a long time of knowing them, not after finding out what their sexual preference is. Kiama

Mystick Dragon	04 Apr 2002
I just wanted to know before I said anything, I am bi, and I have a girlfriend. It's been bugging me that I was so uncertain about telling you guys, once again, another secret from my parents. --Dragon

Umbrae	04 Apr 2002
As long as the dragons do not mind...

slinky_jo	04 Apr 2002
My sister "came out" to me during Easter. Funny thing was, I knew that was what she wanted to tell me! I gave her a little rainbow badge that I had, and we had a good talk and a laugh. She's worried what to tell the other family members - we have a huge Scottish family - very traditional. She has all my support, especially since she's disabled (mentally and physically). She also sees a youth councillor from rainbow youth (young people's gay society).

isthmus nekoi	04 Apr 2002
I think understanding why we even have terms such as gay/bi/straight, means we have to look at the history which created such notions. Homosexuality (or philia back then) was coined in the 1800s (before hetero ^_^)... An example of what I mean: we say Greeks were 'gay', but certainly at the time they did not consider themselves as such - gender choice was not an issue. It was social position and power that determined sexual activity in ancient Greece (which is not so prevalent in our society... you can think of the Greeks as either tops/bottoms then instead of gay/straight :P).... The whole history of sexuality is *rife* w/politics - waaaaaaaaaay too much for me to get into now, but Rubin Gayle's "Thinking Sex" (or is it rethinking?... T_T) is a great place to start. That article was a serious eye-opener for me!! I think that homosexuality, like race, is a social construct. ie if you break race down to a biological level, you will find that it is hardly a discrete unit (unlike say.. blood type), it is in fact distributional - much like... height. But I won't go into the political history behind the concept of 'race' or my post will go on for pages... :P Ethnicity is probably a more accurate term, as race has certain genetic implications. I think sexual preference is similar. I don't buy the idea that you can draw such a neat clear genetic line b/w hetero and homo (although the scientists would like to have us believe otherwise). My friend works at a sex-ed center on campus and she's talking about more fluid (pun intended? :P) models of sexuality that are starting to be developed...

Hoshiakari	05 Apr 2002
Hey, it's been a while since I appeared on here, ne? I've been reading the replies to this thread, and I gotta say, I'm rather touched by everyone's acceptance of homosexuality. As a proud waver of the rainbow flag, I'm glad that you guys are so understanding about this kind of thing. 'nother side note; I'm Dragon's girlfriend. *grins* Thanks again to you all for being such wonderful, wonderful people! Goddess protect y'all! *beams*

kayne	05 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by RedWood I think that if you choose to be gay its your choice... I have a bit of a problem with the idea that being gay is a choice. If I were bi then there would be more choice involved (lucky you Dragon!) but the fact that I am not attracted to the opposite sex at all (in a sexual way) leaves me no choice... Same sex or nothing :p All you choose is the way you express your sexuality... Thanks for having the courage to mention that Dragon, it was hard for me the first time too, especially 'cause I value everyones friendship and support so much, I didn't want to be judged negatively! But, as you must have seen - only the best people are in Aeclectic - Thanks everyone! :D

Kimon	05 Apr 2002
Hello, wonderful, Diana, that´s just the point. Dragon, as long as people have to put the "I am NOT" in capital letters there is still a problem. Greetings, Kimon PS: The mayor of Berlin is gay, and when he assumed his position, one of the first things he said is: "I am gay and that is good." So am I.

funkpuss	05 Apr 2002
Hi Dragon, I just wanted to ask if you told your girlfriend from day one? And how does she feel about it? I'm straight but I did sleep with a woman once and didn't like it. For me it had to be done just to see if I liked it or not. BUT going back to my ex- boyfriend he told me that he was bi later on in the relationship and it killed everything as I couldn't trust him. I asked him from day one has he slept with any men and he said no but I don't think he has but he has dreamed about having sex with men lots of times but also he is very mixed up and still wantsd me and I want him too, but the problem is not that he is bi or not it's the trust thing and talking etc. But good one ya! FP

Lee	05 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by RedWood Personally I am unsure about the morals of homosexualty.. RedWood, I'm wondering what the "morals of homosexuality" are and why you are unsure about them. Do you feel it would be immoral for consenting adults to express their love and affection toward each other? Why is that okay for straight people and no one else? How could it possibly harm anyone if I hold hands with my lover while walking down the street? For me, "immorality" means something which harms someone else. Perhaps your definition is different than mine. I'm gay. It wasn't a choice. But it doesn't really matter if it's a choice or not, because I like myself exactly the way I am and wouldn't wish it otherwise. Sexuality is a large part of personality. If I weren't gay, I wouldn't be me! And I'm perfectly happy being me. -- Lee

RedWood	05 Apr 2002
I am unsure about how to put quotes in..so bear with me.. I grew up where it is morally wrong to be with someone of the same gender whether you were born that way or not (from the bible) I am not saying it is right or wrong to be gay or straight..I am just saying that I am a bit confused on the subject..It just doesnt help to grow up hearing it...Obviously I make my own choices of what to believe or not now...If you are gay thats fine its great that you found someone to love.. Actually I see more gay couples stay together then "straight" couples..If your happy fine...I was just saying what I felt..I was not trying to bash gay people..I am sorry if it came out that way..

Lee	05 Apr 2002
Hi, RedWood -- Sorry if I sounded testy -- but it's kind of hard to hear someone question the morality of homosexuality. Since I'm gay, that means you're questioning my morality. And I consider myself a moral person. It sounds like by "moral" you mean "in the Bible." It seems to me that if someone is going to accept that definition of morality, then that means they must accept all of it, all the rules and regulations, all the codes of behavior. I don't think you can pick and choose. If you're going to consider something immoral because the Bible says so, and if you don't follow every other single thing in the Bible, then that means the Bible is not the arbiter, but rather, someone who is interpreting the Bible for you and telling you what you should consider right and wrong. This means it's not even the Bible that's determining what's right and wrong, but some person or institution. It sounds to me like you're already starting to ask yourself questions about these things. I think that's good. I wouldn't presume to tell you what your answers should be, but just the questioning process is, I think, a good thing. -- Lee

Maan	05 Apr 2002
The good news is that in The Netherlands gay people can get legaly married! I few days back was the one year anniversary of this law! Just love my country

RedWood	05 Apr 2002
Lee, you made a good point..When I said was it morally ok..I never really thought of it has questioning your morals..Now I do...Since I dont know you...I cant question your morals..Even if I did know you I have no right to judge you anyway...

Diana	05 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Maan The good news is that in The Netherlands gay people can get legaly married! Hooray for the Netherlands! :) :) Gay mariages, and now euthanasia. Plus other innovative laws. You guys are always a step ahead of most of the world! By the way, are homosexual couples allowed to adopt children? But I heard that things didn't go so well in Utrecht (I think it was Utrecht) in the local elections. Sorry to hear that.

Kimon	05 Apr 2002
Hello, not only in the Netherlands same-gender couples are accepted in legal terms as a marriage, but also in Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France, Spain and Portugal. And the list is growing, as well as I surely forgot some. The European Parliament has long time ago made a recommendation to all European Community Countries to accept that, and as these recommendations have quite a weight and EU law is binding above national law, things are developing in that direction. Greetings, Kimon

Diana	06 Apr 2002
Kimon: thanks for teaching me the correct term of "same-gender couples". (I sometimes miss out on the correct English terms). It sounds very nice and respectful. Actually, I don't know about Portugal, Spain or Germany, but in France they have the same legal rights as married couples when it comes to pensions, inheritance and such-like. But they are not allowed to get married. It's not really the same thing. I suppose it's a start, but not sufficient. But I think in any country where traditional religious influence is still so strong, it'll take a long time to get to the real thing, the actual marriage, like in the Netherlands (and I imagine Sweden and Denmark too).

Hoshiakari	06 Apr 2002
Hey, funkpuss! "I just wanted to ask if you told your girlfriend from day one? And how does she feel about it?" In reference to that comment, actually, funkpuss, I'm the one who's been waving the rainbow flag before Dragon. She knew I was bi (though, officially as of Nov. 20, 2001, I've decided that I'm definitely gay, and DARN proud of it!) for a month and a half or so before we unofficially got together. The day we actually really realized it and told a couple of close friends was nearly two weeks later, but I still celebrate the day I asked her if she thought she was interested in girls as if it were our anniversary. (Other quick little side note: Yesterday, April 4, was our seven month anniversary!) Just wanted to mention that. And to RedWood: I wouldn't wonder too much about the morals of homosexuality. My belief is that there's two main morals behind not having sex in general. Not wanting to have kids, and wanting to save yourself for marriage. So homosexuals can cross the first one off the list. Isn't the second one the more important one, though? I mean, virginity isn't something that can be replaced, or "fixed". Conception of a child, much as I am against abortion, is admittedly something that can be reversed. Okay, I'm done rantin'. Goodnight, everybody!! Goddess protect ya all!

Diana	06 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Hoshiakari I wouldn't wonder too much about the morals of homosexuality. My belief is that there's two main morals behind not having sex in general. I don't have to tell you this obviously, but just to emphasise a point for those people who still feel uneasy about homosexuality: Sex is only one part of any relationship. People are too hung up about the sexual side of things and tend to concentrate on this because of their own inhibitions and complexes (mostly due to childhood education, sigh :( ) What I see mostly in the relationships of my gay-couple friends is love, laughter, sharing, tenderness and good old fights which clean the air like in any hetero-couple relationship. What they do in their bedrooms is personal, like when I'm with my husband and remains intimate, like a secret garden.

Kiama	06 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana What they do in their bedrooms is personal, like when I'm with my husband and remains intimate, like a secret garden. What a wonderful simile! Secret Garden... Very nice... Kiama

Kimon	06 Apr 2002
Hello Diana, "marriage" with that flowery sound for me personally is a religious term, that is why surrounded it in the way I did. This will never happen, at least not in the catholic church and similars. But I am not sure whether this churches are so important. In legal terms a heterosexual marriage can be exactly the same way as a homosexual, at least as far as I know. I was at the town hall yesterday, where the sister of my "partner/husband/boyfriend/life companion" married. It was a rather prosaic, juridical signing of a contract, nothing more. Gay couples can do this the same way here in Portugal. It is called "factual union" and englobes everything as does the heterosexual marriage; there is no difference at all. You can in the same way choose between "separation or communion of goods" or "communion of aquired" (dont know the english terms). We have been informing us because we will do this in a few months. Greetings, Kimon

Diana	06 Apr 2002
Actually, I hadn't thought about church marriages, but now I'm thinking that there are a lot of religious same-gender couples in the world, who would possibly love to have their union blessed by their God. I have read of priests, preachers and rabbis who symbolically blessed the union of these couples in churches or synagogues. Although this was not sanctioned by the big bosses. I hope these symbolic ceremonies will increase in number (for they are symbolic, even for hetero couples, as church marriages alone are not considered "legal" in most countries"). What about adoption? Is this accepted by all these countries you mention? I didn't realise that in Portugal things had gone so far in gay rights. I'm really so happy to learn this. What are the habitual terms in English for the partner in a same-gender marriage? For hetero couples, it's "husband" and "wife". Would you use "life-companion" or something like that?

funkpuss	06 Apr 2002
Thanks Hoshiakari ! FP

RedWood	06 Apr 2002
This is what I heard yesterday from the guy I am with that heard it on the radio... Disney World in Florida is giving all there employees something like a partnership in disney world..I think it is the American baptist association or something like that has decided to boycott disneyworld because off "all employees" means gay ones also..That is so stupid..If I had the money i would go to disney world..

jade	06 Apr 2002
anytime someone is prejudiced against because of ANY reason it saddens me :( jade :(

Talisman	06 Apr 2002
'Lo all, Gee, Silence Dogood, I thought the right term was "queer." That was the term we all used back when I was in highschool. It always applied to guys, I guess. (Think a hugely church-ridden, fundamentalist part of the world.) Lesbians might have been invented, but there were only three or four, and they'd all hung out in Paris 50 years earlier with Gertrude Stein. Or, they belonged to ancient history. Assuming there are a certain percentage of homosexuals in any given population, imagine how many mouths-shut-tight, poor sad children I went to school with. How long ago? Back then, gay meant happy. Listen, it was tough enough being a top of the pile male caucasian. Being socially inept, a fistfighter, a rebel-kicked-out-of-class guy. Imagine being a Black (the polite term then was Colored) or other easily recognized ethnic group, a queer, or a girl. Once, I debated taking a home economics class. The alternative was some kind'a shop class, which I hated. 'Sides, all the cute girls were in home-ec. (They had no choice.) My buddies talked me out of it. "You wanna look like some kind'a queer?" they said. Guys, it's traditional for old farts to tell you how much better the world is, but, please believe me, in some ways it really, truly is much better. My answer to the question, "Should gays be allowed to . . ." is, probably not. Nobody else should either. If you had to pass a test to have a child, I suspect most of us never would have been born. Nobody, if I made up the test. My prejudice, but I'm guessing you Aeclectics are a step or two ahead of most folks in the tolerance department. And, great, giant steps ahead of the social environment I started in. So, to paraphrase Mohammed Ali, "I ain't got nuthin' against them queers." Talisman

Silence Dogood	07 Apr 2002
UH-UH -- not QUEER. Queer is a derogatory term. 'Gay' is not. Would you walk up to a black woman and call her a 'nigger' to her face? Same difference, bub! To say " Look at that queer/nigger/spic/coon/faggot over there" is a derogatory term. It implies prejustice against that queer/nigger/spic/coon/faggot. To say " Look at that gay/ Afro-American/ hispanic/ homosexual over there" does not. Think about it. Words are our most powerful weapon.

Melvis	07 Apr 2002
Silence: I believe Talisman was being sarcastic. Peace, Melvis

Silence Dogood	07 Apr 2002
Sarcasim is a form of self-defense. Substituting one politically incorrect term for another politically incorrect term for the sake of making a 'joke' is almost as bad as saying the original word to begin with. (Not jumping down Talisman's throat here-- just trying to make a point. Why try to be 'funny' at the expense of someone else?) Unfortunately, shows like "Queer As Folk" reiterate these types of thinking. (Have you ever SEEN that show? MY! T.V. has come a LOOOOOOOOOONG way! Never saw stuff like that on 'The Brady Bunch'!) After years of trying to eliminate the 'N' word from the worldwide vocabulary, there is (hopefully WAS) a rap group called " Niggahs Wit Attitude" -- sometimes groups adopt something that was used against them as a sign of defiance and strength, like gays adopting the pink triangle even though it was originally used in Nazi death camps to identify homosexuals. In and among themselves, gays may call each other faggots and blacks may call each other niggers - but that DOES NOT make it right, IMHO. If you're comfortable with someone's sexuality, you don't have to degrade them to talk about them.

isthmus nekoi	07 Apr 2002
a note about how I take appropriation and language: The usage of the word queer used to have a very derogatory connotation, but the gay community has tried to appropriate the term, and in doing so, tried to defuse the negative charge that comes along w/queer AND the whole notion of homosexuality itself. By being able to say: we're here, we're queer - get used to it.... the gay community can change the definition of queer and cut out those negative connotations. It's acknowledging your past and moving beyond it... My friends and I used to call each other Chink or speak in accents as a joke, not b/c we thought we were stereotypes, but because we acknowledge what those stereotypes are: false. In using Chink in a different context, we are revealing the fallacies of racial slurs, *not* internalizing them - we took the word away from its derogatory context, recognized its racist origins and decided to play with it. Very post modern no? Now: if an non-Chinese person decided to call me Chink, they would have to show me that they understand Chinese ppls *beyond* the stereotypes, or else I will assume they are using Chink in its former, derogatory context. These examples aren't analogous of course, but there are parallels... Hegemony and hegemonic words are *never* complete in their power.

zorya	07 Apr 2002
one thing i just can't tolerate is intolerance!

kayne	08 Apr 2002
Very good point isthmus nekoi. In my part of the world the Gay Community have well and truly embraced the term queer and use it collectively to mean gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people. I don't have a problem being refered to as queer, depending on the context. I think the older generation might find queer derogatory as they may have heard it in such a negative way... Now young people get called gay in a derogatory way in high schools - perhaps they feel the same way about that as you, Silence Dogood, say gay people feel about queer...? To reiterate isthmus nekoi's point: It's all in the context.

Talisman	08 Apr 2002
'Lo all, So, I used the term "queer." I was writing about a period in history. There is a movement underway to ban Mark Twain's novel, "Huckleberry Finn," written as a historical novel, 'cause he used terms that are politically incorrect. Or, at least rewrite it. Imagine poor Huck, willing to go to hell to help his friend, African-American Jim. Kayne, you mentioned the term "queer" being embraced. I live in San Francisco. (This is dull history stuff, so you can skip it.) During World War II, the U.S. Navy decided to discharge all known homosexuals. And, the port where they discharged them was San Francisco. And, they put the reason for discharge on the discharge papers, at a time when you had to show your status re the military to get any kind of job. Lot's'a folks decided not to go home to Ohio, or Indiana, or where ever, and just stayed here. Like the stories behind Chinatown, Japantown, Little Italy, Little Russia, etc. etc., it made the community a culturally richer and more vibrant place. And, today, you'd have to look really hard to find someone offended by the term "queer." 'Course, depending on how you use it, they might think you're a nitwit. But, you'll probably almost always get the benefit of the doubt about being thought a raging bigot. 'Less you're one of those right-wing politicians who wants to shoot 'em all for the greater glory of god. I gotta name for them, but I've already damaged my reputation, so I'll refrain from using it. Talisman

Silence Dogood	08 Apr 2002
Oh, talsiman, chill out a minute or two... The point I am trying to make is that a term is not just a term ( not quite Gertrude Stein there). Because you may be comfortable with the term queer does not mean that all gay men (does it apply to women?) are comfortable with it. Just because one group marches around shouting 'We're Here, We're Queer - get used to it" does not mean every man gay in the world accepts or even likes the term. Once, at a place I worked, these two women shouted ' Oh You Faggot!' everytime they dropped a pencil or stubbed their toe. I asked them to stop. They said 'What do you care?'. I said that every time they used a prejudiced term like that they were offending someone, even if there were no gay men in the office. If you dropped some trash on the floor and said to it 'Oh you faggot', you are equating gay people with garbage and showing that you hate both. If you bang your toe and say 'Oh, Shit!' you are not offending any one group of people.

jade	08 Apr 2002
it's that odd..............i remember tarotbear sharing that exact same story with me. you must have worked in the same office together. although, when he told it, he was the one who asked them to stop using the word faggot. in light, jade

New River	08 Apr 2002
Silence DoGood: words ARE weapons. love, light and hope, New River

slinky_jo	08 Apr 2002
I hate how kids are calling things "gay" if they are really naff. :(

Hush	08 Apr 2002
silence: queer as folk, the name, comes from a saying in england... slinky: i hate that too..! most of the people in my school have grown out of that, but unfourtenatly, there are still the odd people. usually if someone i like does it i explain to them that i know theyre not trying to be offensive but im bi and my best friend is gay i dont wanna talk to someone who uses it as a derogatory term. i then apologise for being so anal about it. heh. as for 'how do you feel about homosexuals' or whatever it was, i really dont see it as an issue. as i said, my best friends gay, im bi and about half my circle of friends are, no one sees it as a big deal and an eyelid will not be battered at a remark about someone of the same sex. unfourtenatly, this does not apply for everyone of my age group, so you do have to be kind of careful. with everyone i know they either dont approve of it at all (this is *very* rare), the dont see it as a bad thing but dont kind of..embrace the idea, or theyre completely open to it (this is the general thought) so yeah...:)

Silence Dogood	09 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jade it's that odd..............i remember tarotbear sharing that exact same story with me. You think the people Tarotbear works/worked with are the only people who use the term 'faggot' ? That's right- you homeschool your children so they are not exposed to the harsh realities of the real world outside. I've walked by schoolyards where children are playing and hear them say the same thing to their schoolmates or anyone on the playground they get mad at. I've heard it in the cafeterias of companies that say they promote 'zero tolerance'. So, if you stub your toe and say 'Oh you faggot!' and no one hears you...that somehow makes it right? I don't think so.

jade	09 Apr 2002
you still shared the story before tarotbear.

purplelady	10 Apr 2002
o.k. I'll throw my 0.02 cents into this conversation of high school lingo. About 2 yrs ago , my son was living at home and still in high school. There was a point where anything and everything negative was "gay". If they had to stay after school , that was "gay", if a sports game got cancelled, that was "gay" and so on and so forth. It was Quite the phrase among the high school crowd , at least at that time. I seemed to hear it from kids everywhere all the time, not just my son. I honestly don't think they even Thought about what they were saying or what it really meant. Not that that makes it right or excuses it. One very popular kid must've started it and it just caught on , so if you wanted to be cool you talked that way etc. I also found out that the word "jewish" was used in the exact same phraseology as the word "gay" , describing Anything negative, as in "I flunked my test! That's jewish , man!" Since my son is part jewish , I guess he mentioned that to his friends and they quit! Also , "Pimp" is what you call it if it's Good!!! Anything good is "pimp". Going to a party tonight? oh yeah! Pimp!! etc etc! This is probubly a little dated as that was a few years ago. Also , didn't europeans used to call a regular cigarrette a "faggot" ?

purplelady	10 Apr 2002
Gotta relate another true tale of high schoolers even though I may be veering from the original topic here. Not even a year ago , my son was still at home , 18. No actually he had Just moved out of the house and in with his girlfriend at the girlfriends best friends dad's house!! :p . Anyhow he came down with a very severe sore throat and illness and guess who ended up taking him to a doctor and sitting in various doctor offices and pharmacies for a total of 5 hours?! (I'll give you a hint , it wasn't his girlfriend!) The doctor I ended up picking from the then insurance plan , I thought she was a general practitioner but I guess "family doctor" means she is a reproductive doctor also . Anyhow , in the waiting room they give my son to fill out a Long invasive questionaire about any sexual practices he engages in! He fills out this long thing , then leans over and whispers "hey mom , what's "momogamy " mean?" (I know he knows what it means but apparently isn't familiar with the Word!) We're sitting there, sitting there waiting. Another kid comes in about the same age as my son , with his mom. The kid fills out the questionaire, leans over and whispers to his mom "What's "monogamy" mean?" LOL (The kids knew what all the other words on the questionaire meant! makes 'ya wonder what they learn in school these days!)

springfish	10 Apr 2002
Gay or not, of course they're people. However I personally don't think being gay is natural. Now of course people who are gay will say, "I certainly didn't ask to be gay." Yeah, no kidding, but either society or some other outside influence definitely did assisted in making you gay. Human beings and all life for that matter are on this earth for one reason, to breed. I don't think gays have figured out how to make than work yet.

Kaz	10 Apr 2002
purplelady, i remember, people sometimes called it a fag, not a faggot. kaz

purplelady	10 Apr 2002
Since I've blabbed on for long enough , I'd better attempt to answer the original question "How do I feel about homosexuality". I feel that if someone says they are gay , then they just are , and that's o.k., and it's not my place to judge. I think I've come to understand and have a little more insight into the whole thing as I've grown older and gotten to know heterosexual and gay people. How do you feel about transexuals? I don't judge as good or bad, but I think that's a little harder to empathise with . I just take the persons word for it that they are transexual, but I can't say I personally relate and totally understand how they feel, 'ya know? So I just Accept that they are and feel how they say! How do you feel about BIsexual? Once again I try not to judge , However, I feel that if no one expresses any ambivilance at all then they're a Liar! Springfish , just gotta stir up trouble , dont'cha?! I think Your view may be the twisted one! Yes , from a certain Biological viewpoint , our cells' goal is to breed ( I actually read a book on it once). ALL species biological goal is to breed. However , you cannot (or have yet to) prove that there may or may not be a biological reason for homosexuality also ? And beyond the purely biological reasons, why would our Only reason for being here be to "breed". IF you believe in "god" (I take it you do since I suspect you may be a bible-reader) then don't we consist of more and have a "higher" purpose than just "breeding"? Like what about the spirit and the soul , and Love and many many other reasons we may exist besides just to be "breeders".

springfish	10 Apr 2002
Purplelady. First of all, how am I stirring up trouble? By voicing my opinion to a thread that's entitled, "How do you guys feel about homosexuality?" I'm sorry for having an opinion. Geez. I didn't see the sign on the home page that read, "AGREE WITH US OR BE LABELED A TROUBLEMAKER!" Secondly, I DO NOT believe in god in any way shape or form. I've read the Bible and feel that it was a good story...that's all. I am not a biologist...nor I'm sure are you. I don't have the slightest idea if there's a scientific reason, chemical or not for homosexuality. If being gay is natural when why don't animals have homosexual intercourse? Yeah, I'm twisted for having opinions and thoughts. Everytime I talk I'm trying to start trouble. Get over it.

Diana	10 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by springfish If being gay is natural when why don't animals have homosexual intercourse? Many animals have homosexual relations.

springfish	10 Apr 2002
??? Really? An examples?

springfish	10 Apr 2002
I just did a search on google for Homosexuality in Animals...WOW! I never knew. I still don't think it's natural though. Very interesting.

Diana	10 Apr 2002
The ones mentioned in the article I read referred to dogs, donkeys and monkeys. There were more, but I'm not quite sure now, so don't want to talk out of my hat.

Lee	10 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by springfish I just did a search on google for Homosexuality in Animals...WOW! I never knew. I still don't think it's natural though. Very interesting. Well, if humans do it, and animals do it, then how is it not natural? I think by "natural" you mean "what makes me comfortable." -- Lee

Kiama	10 Apr 2002
Springfish: You bring up an interesting point, by talking about what humans are on this Earth for. It ties very much into the question of 'Why Are We Here?' Since nobody knows that, we cannot assume that anything we do is natural or unnatural! We cannot assume that we are on this Earth to breed, just cuz we see it happening alot. For all we know we could be on this Earth to further some Divine Being's intelliegnce, or give them a laugh, and breeding is just included in this... I can see why it is assumed that homosexuality is abnormal, or what-have-you, cuz it is a minority thing: The 'traditional'way, the 'tried and tested to work' way, is heterosexual. However, who's to say the minority in this case is abnormal? A really interesting example of this would be with Schizophrenia, which has for a long, long time been viewed as an abnormal way of life and thought. However, recently, it as come to be understood as a normal reaction to an abnormal world, where we are pushed to be the best, to carry on the genes, to gain money and success, to be individuals, yet to conform to society in general... Could not the same be said of homosexuality? Just cuz is a minority doesn't mean its abnormal. I am by no means havng a go at you, I'm just giving another viewpoint. Kiama

Kiama	10 Apr 2002
Oh, nearly forgot: Taking Aspirin, driving a car, and flying in a plane are all un-natural too! Kiama

Kiama	10 Apr 2002
Oh, another brainwave! If we are on this Earth to breed, then monogamy and marriage is un-natural, since it goes a long way to preventing the process of the male impregnating as many female as possible.... (A bit like groups of chimps and gorillas, an lions.) You could say that there are many things now that are 'un-natural', but we all do... Even those of us who call other practices un-natural. Kiama

Butterfly	10 Apr 2002
I think it's important to note that sex isn't only for breeding. From a female viewpoint it's a bit of an unusual idea. The clitoris has absolutely no function in breeding, it's been designed purely as an organ of pleasure, no other function. We feel desire, even during our non fertile times. Also, taking the pill negates the "breeding" aspect. Does that mean taking the pill is un-natural? It's a dicey argument, one we have fought years against as women, let alone homosexuals.

cayacia	10 Apr 2002
Wow, I'm really sad that I havn't been around for a while because I have a lot to say about this subject. I'm finding that, growing up a lot in the past 4 months, homosexuality is very normal. I think that everyone, at some point in their life, is attracted to someone of the same sex; no matter how brief it is. My best friend is gay. Believe me, it wasn't easy for me at frist to accept it because when he told me I had fallen quite in love with him and wanted a relationship with him very much. Now, in such a short time, I've gotten over wanting a love relationship with him and now he is my brother. I feel closer to him now than I did before he told me. Especially since for a long time I felt as though I knew him very well and yet...I did not know him. I couldn't pin what it was exactly that made me feel that way until after he told me and I realized what it was. There is so much more I could say, because I can tell you it has been a growing, learning experience for me to be so close to someone gay. I love in a small town, mind you, so you don't come across "out" people very often here. My friend is not even out yet, only to his closest friends. It certainly has made us take a closer look at racisim as well. Not only is my best friend gay, but the guy I am becoming involved with now is hispanic. I don't have a problem with either one of them, but I know that other people will, including people in my extended family-it saddens me. Love and light to us all; cayacia

Tarotbear 2	11 Apr 2002
***Birds do it - bees do it -- even educated fleas do it!*** If you were only put here to breed, then why do people decide to be celibate? Are nuns and priests unnatural? Are you against protected sex with a condom, then, since interfering with breeding would be unnatural. More to life than being a concubine.

VmprGokuboi69	11 Apr 2002
Well as the title says, I am gay. The debate still rages on if homosexuality is a choice or a mutation in DNA. Anyway, either way you look at it, you still have those close minded people who will take it upon themselves to preach and lecture you on how it is wrong. I could go on the whole christian(catholic) preaching but I'd rather not. I attend a catholic high school, for those who were wondering. Anyway, my thoughts, it is who you are, you can't change it. Just accept it

fairyhedgehog	11 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by springfish Gay or not, of course they're people. 'They'? Don't you mean 'you'? Because some of us here are gay. And yes, gay or straight or bi or transexual (or any other that I've forgotten) we are all people. Quote: However I personally don't think being gay is natural. Define natural. Explain why natural is better than, say, civilised. Who decides what is natural and what isn't and how do they 'know'? Quote: Now of course people who are gay will say, "I certainly didn't ask to be gay." Yeah, no kidding, but either society or some other outside influence definitely did assisted in making you gay. Human beings and all life for that matter are on this earth for one reason, to breed. I don't think gays have figured out how to make than work yet. Scientific research seems to show that sexual orientation is not chosen, but is part of who we are. Becoming a sexual being is complex and many different factors determine our sexuality. That doesn't make any particular form of sexuality better or worse than any other, as long as any sexual activity takes place between consenting adults. Btw, my purpose on this earth is not simply to breed. I think that this shows a misunderstanding or at best a misapplication of Darwinism. Well, just my two pennorth (£0.02) :)

kayne	11 Apr 2002
I think the majority of people in Aeclictic are really very enlightened people... because, sadly, in my experience it seems that Springfishes attitude is a very common one. I am glad to be living in the day and age I do where that attitude is becoming less and less prevalent. I couldn't imagine living in a time when I was not able to be my natural self, basically being forced to marry or seek the company of men in hiding and risk being prosecuted etc... We have all come a long way...

springfish	11 Apr 2002
All very interesting and informative posts / points of view. Keep in mind here that I never said I had a problem with Homosexuality. I live in Philadelphia, have gone through art school, have had friends that are homosexual. I don't have any problems with them or look down upon them. Of course the word "natural" has a wide area of definition. And whoever posted the note of: "is driving a car natural..." was right on. Of course it's not. I just don't think homosexuality is a natural act. I'm NOT saying it's wrong. Lets face it. The ONE thing in this world that you can say is natural is love....and at the end of the day whatever it is that makes you smile or feel love would have to be a good thing, right? Then you have Kayne. You think just because I don't think the same as you or the small clique of people who actually post on this form that I am somehow not enlightened? "I think the majority of people in Aeclictic are really very enlightened people... because, sadly, in my experience it seems that Springfishes attitude is a very common one..." You hipocrite...(spelled wrong I'm sure) Right there you're showing what appears to be YOUR true colors. Instead of having problems with gays, you have a problem with people who think differently from you. What attitude are you speaking of exactly? Is it one that isn't just going to nod along with everything everyone else says? Or is it the one that lashes out at simple minded twits like yourself in self-defense. I NEVER said anyone gay is bad. I guess if I said serial killers were bad you'd have a problem with that too...since they're still people and all. THINK about what you're saying before you say it. If you're going to jab at me, I'm going to stab back.

Kiama	11 Apr 2002
Oh, Springfish, haven't we been through this before in the Aeclectic Tarot Project Forum? YOu have no grounds to say that Kayne is a 'Simple-minded twit' In fact, as with the Tarotbear incident, the person who you accused of being something nasty has proven themesleves to be far from that! Kayne, in my experience of him, has proven himself to be dedicated, friedly, intelligent, and FAR from simple minded. Kiama PS- Read the Forum Guidelines. The first paragraph. That says that you should be nice, and not insult people in such a way. Kayne's apparant accusation of your unenlightenment was actually a reference to the majority of te world's view on homosexuality, and a reference to his view of that view....

joya250	11 Apr 2002
okay -- I stayed away from this thread -- and I don't want it turning into a get all over springfish thread -- but I need to say SOMETHING. Isn't the title of this thread "what do you feel about homosexuality?" Yes. It is. And people are going to have differing opinions. Springfish expressed his. He did so without being degrading or insulting -- he simply expressed what he thought. Suddenly, purplelady accuses him of "stirring things up" -- and then Kayne says it's "people like him" and implying that he is less enlightened than the rest of us. And, now Kiama, you're bringing up the Acelectic Project posts??? Come on now!!!! Tarotbear was equally nasty right back to Springfish. Let's be fair! AND half the people who have a chip on their shoulder about Springfish didn't even READ that posted 'cause it was deleted almost immediately. And, as to your point about Tarotbear proving himself otherwise? Well, I haven't seen that. If anything he's propetuated things by emailing us separately, bashing Jade -- AND then posing as someone else and lying about it. (or at least I suspect, I have no proof and frankly, I don't care.) As for how I feel about homosexuality. Well, I have absolutely nothing wrong with it. And I believe that as humans we are very sexual beings -- and that includes bisexuality, hetrosexuality, and homosexuality. (Although you do have to admit there are perversions -- and that can be seen in pedifiles and such. ugh.) What I don't like, is feeling like I will be attacked if I use a certain word, like gay, or queer, or homo. I don't usually say or even write those words -- I have no need to. But, it seems here like people take offense to them. It's very confusing -- what may offend someone on one side of the country may be what someone else prefers to be called on the other side of the county. AND, as to birth control pills ---- they are VERY unnatural. And my thinking so has nothing to do with the feminist movement or downgrading women or whatnot. I won't take them and that's my opinon. I don't think those who do are bad. anyway, bottom line. I respect and care about everyone in this community -- and I would like to think that others feel the same. Springfish makes some very valid points, whether you agree with them or not. peace, joya

springfish	11 Apr 2002
Yeah 250. Obviously you have an open mind. Kiama, doesn't it also say to be on topic? I believe my ORIGINAL POST in this thread was just that. Before I was brow beaten by kayne for having my own point of view. I'd expect more from a moderator that your last post...which by the way, wasn't on topic at all. I have NEVER thrown the first punch. Maybe you can selectively recall that. If I mistook kaynes post, I appologize to him...though I think I understand perfectly clear what he is saying.

Lee	11 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by springfish Gay or not, of course they're people. However I personally don't think being gay is natural. Now of course people who are gay will say, "I certainly didn't ask to be gay." Yeah, no kidding, but either society or some other outside influence definitely did assisted in making you gay. Human beings and all life for that matter are on this earth for one reason, to breed. I don't think gays have figured out how to make than work yet. I think the post I've quoted could certainly be interpreted as being insulting towards gay people, especially the last sentence, "I don't think gays have figured out how to make than [sic] work yet." At least I felt insulted. To step back a bit, I think there's something vaguely disturbing about this whole thread (nothing against the person who began it). It's like saying, "What do you think about black people?" It just doesn't sound right. -- Lee

joya250	11 Apr 2002
yah, Lee. I hear ya. A little disturbing thread to begin with.... though I don't think it was started maliciously... there's no easy way to talk about sensitive topics without hurt feelings somewhere along the line. ..... also, Springfish, I didn't say it was right of you to insult Kayne. (AND I happend to think that Kiama is a great moderator.) I just wanted to remind everyone to be fair. cool? - joy (oh, and Lee, I think Springfish was referring (in a sarcastic way) to actually making babies! which, in that case it's true) okay, I'm outta here.... before it gets even more messy.....

springfish	11 Apr 2002
I'm sorry if that insulted you. It wasn't ment to do that. I guess I should of worded it differently. My apologies. LOOK EVERYONE! The big, bad, disagreeable, nasty springfish apologizing. (of course no one will notice that)

kayne	11 Apr 2002
Springfish: I appologise for implying that you were less enlightened than the rest of us... it was not a good choice of words. You must understand that I felt hurt by what I had read but you certainly had a right to say how you felt and I thank you for saying it. You must also understand that I had a right to respond. Like I said, it was wrong of me to put it in those words. What I meant and should have explained more clearly was that many people have negative attitudes towords gay people, I am surrounded by it and sick of it. In my everyday life I grin and bear it, never cause a scene or say a thing, despite what i might be thinking. I feel like I needed to say how I felt here on Aeclectic since I have nothing to hide here. I should have chosen my words more carefully.

Diana	11 Apr 2002
I dunno, I just reckon that sometimes when one is posting on a forum, one has to think hard sometimes about the way one puts things. It's not like talking to someone : the forumites don't see our mimicks, they don't hear the intonations, don't see the hand motions, the body language. And because of this, a lot of misunderstandings can take place. Of course, we have the emoticons to help us, but these are sometimes not sufficient. Sometimes even in real life, we have to think before speaking. But when it comes to communicating by writing short posts, it is even more of a delicate task. How to balance between spontaneity, which is needed in order for other people to "hear" us, and the need for choosing our words that will not be misunderstood in order for people to "listen" to us: this is a difficult, but, IMO, necessary exercice. However hard I try, though, there are always times when I re-read an old post I made, and I say "that was real dumb", or "I could have expressed that much better". But once it's made, it's made. One can't spend one's life editing what one has said. That's like re-writing history, and that's for politicians, not for Aeclecticians.

jade	11 Apr 2002
springfish, thank you very much for apologizing............ :) (i noticed!!!) everyone, he's apologized, so let it be. everyone is allowed their own opinion, even in the reiki threads we have differing opinions but we can all share those opinions without insulting each other. since this thread is about whether or not you agree with homosexuality, rather than, everyone who agrees - please post here......differing opinions are to be expected. (just please follow the forum guidelines when posting) as for the purpose of the thread.............if you go back to the first page you will discover that it was made in an attempt for a member to feel safe about 'coming out' on the forum. AND if you don't like the topic, stop discussing it and it will fall down the ranks very quickly. in light, jade ps kayne, i see you also have apologized, thank you. :)

springfish	11 Apr 2002
Kayne, I'm sorry too. As you know (and everyone else should as well) I'm very reactionary...maybe too much. I come across negative sometimes because I too am sickened with the problems of this world. When I see or hear things that make me mad I react, I don't grin and bear it. When I was in high school people (friends) use to make fun of the "retarded" people (yes I know retarted isn't PC...I'm not PC, that's life) I tried the easy route of saying things like, you shouldn't say that...etc. In the end I ended up in fist fights over stupid stuff like that. Not much has changed today. I'm not a mean person. But I'm easily provoked. When people here realize that I'm sure my posts won't seem as harsh and controversial. I like this forum. I like the variety it has. I don't know much about tarot...and frankly don't really have much interest in it. I do however enjoy reading the posts and taking a little bit away from it. I lay under the same stars at night and wonder a lot of the same thoughts that all of you do. Please don't hold me to every word I write. I'll be the first to admit that my thoughts are jumbled and disjointed at times...even my girlfriend knows that what I say isn't always what I mean. hope.

kayne	11 Apr 2002
Thanks Springfish, I think we have both learnt something tonight... (bad cleche I know :p ) :TSTAR = hope

jade	11 Apr 2002
i think all of us can hum that tune springfish LOL. that is just soooo true. we say something and damn, it came out wrong. thank you so much for trusting us all enough to share your feelings and thoughts with us on this. i feel like i know you much better. :) a defender. a leader. spontaneous. real. great qualities! in light, jade :)

Tarotbear 2	11 Apr 2002
If all we were 'put here' to do was breed, then that puts us in the category with insects and birds and the like who are born with the abilities to survive, find food and shelter, and reproduce. When you swat a fly, if does not think about death and mortality, a legacy to its great-grandchildren, or other such stuff. When a raccon is killed by a passing car, the mother raccoon walks away, she does not hold funeral services or bury it. Is this what you think humans are for. We have free will to do as we wish, and some people chose celibacy. I could very easily have sex with a woman and have children - but I am not attracted to women ( not that attraction has anything to do with breeding, which is merely an act of copulation). As Anthony Hopkins is called 'unnatural' as Richard asks in The Lion in Winter " If babies come with crooked backs, and poisoned mushroms grow, and wives plot to kill their husbands...then what IS natural?"

purplelady	11 Apr 2002
Springfish , you are right , you are entitled to give your opinion , and after all , that was the title of the thread. I was just giving my opinion back but it wasn't really my intention to personally attack you. It seems to me that Joya250 still feels the need to take jabs at tarotbear however. I didn't intend at first to get involved with this thread either! Tarotbear, with all we think we know , I think there is much more we Don't know about other animals. I don't think anyone knows for sure what the fly thinks when you swat it or if a raccoon mourns. I have read that elephants do indeed actually cry , and form bonds with other elephants and humans. And I think that I read dolphins or whales have been known to cry. No I don't have a biology degree, but the book I read was titled "Why we get sick" . It was kind-of specialized. Their theory was that from an evolutionary perspective, certain diseases actually help to insure our survival as a species. And that at a certain cellular level it is the bodies highest goal to survive and breed . It was very interesting! I don't think That however, has much to do with whether homosexuality is "natural". And after all , in the 21 st century , isn't the goal often Not to breed?!

Diana	11 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by purplelady .Their theory was that from an evolutionary perspective, certain diseases actually help to insure our survival as a species. And that at a certain cellular level it is the bodies highest goal to survive and breed This theory is becoming more and more widespread and studied. I have read books and many articles about, and attended seminars, and it really makes tremendous sense when explained properly.

Kiama	12 Apr 2002
IMHO there is a difference between outright calling somebody names (With no basis for that name) and implying. through reference to a wider range... There, I explained myself. Don't think I'll ever stick up for a friend in need on this forum again, cuz I just get told off for it. Kiama

jade	12 Apr 2002
oh kiama, i don't know who you were standing up for but please don't stop. aeclectic is such a special place of sharing and caring. that's what makes it different from those sites that just have nameless faceless people posting responses in a cold atmosphere of opinions and nothing else. i know it makes it hard to stick up for your fellow members when someone then turns on you................but perhaps the 'turners' could learn (gentleness) from this rather than the supporters feeling attacked. i send you hugs (((hugs))) love jade

Kiama	12 Apr 2002
Thanks for the hugs Jade. Kiama *Feeling alot better now*

jade	12 Apr 2002
aaah, i knew you would feel better. you are so kind and generous with your kisses....................you are back to yourself i see! love jade ((((((more hugs for kiama)))))

nexyjo	12 Apr 2002
if someone here can define gender for me, i'll be happy to provide my views on homosexuality. when you've lived your life outside of the gender polarity as i have, sexual orientation pretty much looses its meaning. in a real sense, i'm quite happy that i'm bi-sexual. i don't discriminate against someone because of their gender. i've been with people who identify as men, women, and either in between or outside of the two extremes of gender. if i were not bi-sexual, trying to figure out whether or not i'm homosexual, would have just added another search for yet another label for myself. i'll add that i primarily date men. and for the last few years, i haven't had any interest in dating any women. my therapist seems to think i'm heterosexual. though she's a rather progressive person in comparison to the norm. since she sees me as a woman, her perspective is underatandable. though i'd venture to say that many people might not see me as a woman. perhaps they'd even go as far as to say that i'm just unnatural, what ever the heck that means. further, i'll add i agree with whom ever said that they were uncomfortable with this whole thread. frankly, it makes me extremely uncomfortable that the topic of who i sleep with is under examination. of course, i'm uncomfortable with alot of topics that segragate people on the basis of who they are, and then scrutinize their motives, actions, and intent. perhaps it was just the wording of the original post. i'll admit that i'm a bit sensitive to this kind of thing. well, before i go off on another rant, i think i'll just leave it at that, and be on my way. your friendly neighborhood transsexual, nexy

jade	12 Apr 2002
whom we love and adore for not only being herself but because of her unending courage and stamina to truely BE. in light, jade (in awe of nexy)

Diana	13 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by nexyjo agree with whom ever said that they were uncomfortable with this whole thread. frankly, it makes me extremely uncomfortable that the topic of who i sleep with is under examination Nexyjo: I agree with you entirely. That's why I posted somewhere way back that "I have a dream that people will one day not need to ask this question anymore". But one positive side to this type of questioning and answering, in newspapers, TV shows, forums, etc. shows that some people are begining to feel uncomfortable with their stereotyping and that there is a movement (slowly but surely) to acceptance. I mean, just fifty years ago, there were still people committing suicide because of their homosexuality, because they knew their lives would be ruined if they admitted it. And in how many countries are they still imprisoned? Progress will only come about if both sides talk openly about their feelings, their fears and experiences (and fights for their rights). (But I really do appreciate that this type of talk can bore you to tears and get on your nerves!)

arizonagirl	16 Apr 2002
Right from the beginning I had been ignoring this thread because I couldn't imagine anyone asking the question which is the title to the thread, or how anyone could reply without antagonizing someone else. In an e-mail from Nexy, she mentioned this thread and because I like Nexy and find her responses intelligent and sensitive, I read the damn thing. It's really sad that such a question can be asked in this time and in such an enlightened gathering as Aeclectic.

Tarotbear 2	16 Apr 2002
P.S. folks - Nexy was disgusted by the thread. Although she can be a bit oversensitive at times, she felt this was putting 10% of the population under scrutiny it didn't need, since who's business is it what you do in bed, anyway? This thread is what has caused nexy to leave the forum for good, I fear.

isthmus nekoi	16 Apr 2002
In all fairness, I don't think this thread was started with the intention to offend anyone, even if it has. I think Dragon was just testing the waters and trying to gauge what the general consensus was re: homosexuality. I don't think the need to bring this up as a topic is inherently offensive even though the potential is there... And like Diana said, there is the potential for progress through discussion. ---- I think discussing homosexuality in a historical and sociopolitical context is needed, which is what hasn't been touched on so much in this thread. Very often, we take homosexuality out of this context and try to naturalize our attitudes as if our current situation has always been this way, for all cultures and all times. Very dangerous b/c then it's easier to accept things b/c they *seem* to be 'the way things are', to totally reduce them to the biological level. w/o a historical context, it becomes very difficult to understand the current. ie. could you discuss globalization w/o knowing about colonialism? Sure you could, but it wouldn't go very far. ... I've found Gayle Rubin and Michel Foucault's writings about sex to be excellent places to find alternate ways to approach attitudes regarding sex. Sorry to be so vague! I wish I had my course reader w/me... (tons of excellent articles)...

jakyle	15 May 2002
I'm originally from northern Ca. and lived about an hour from San Francisco. Needless to say, I have quite a few of,"open minded friends." I have no problem with people's sexuality, as long as they are open about it from the beginning with someone they might be interested in dating.(strictly for the Bi factor) I would hate to be involved with someone for a few weeks, and then later find out that he was Bi-curious, or has already been there done that. I'm pretty good with my "gaydar,"(I use that term for when I know someone is most likely to be attracted to the same sex) but I know a few people who have been married, and later find out their spouse was gay. If people have a problem with it, it's just their opinion. To me, it's still the same person I first met, and being gay isn't going to make them any different in my eyes. Love the clothes, very coordinated with accessories, and tell it like it is, girlfriend!!!(I'm straight) but the Spark.com has a fun gay test to see how gay you really might be....Rainbows, pink pyramids...Rainbow kitty sticker......

Mermaid	16 May 2002
I've just read this thread, and it disturbs me too. I really hate to see everyone upset like this. What started as an honest question has offended bunches of our Aeclectic friends. The thread has done what it was posted to do - ie let Dragon know that we'll love her no matter what her sexuality - so maybe it's time to just let it drop? Please? PS - I don't intend to post on this thread again, please join me in ignoring it so it will go away! Brightest blessings to each and every one of you -

Kimon	16 May 2002
Hello Isthmus, do you know where to find Michel Foucault's writings about sex in the net? Thanks and greetings, Kimon

Mystick Dragon	16 May 2002
*Starts crying* I didn't mean to do anything, I'm so used to pressure, and prejudice, that I wanted to know if I would be shunned because of my life. I can't help that. I guess I'm just some stupid person who doesn't belong anywhere. I can never do anything that doesn't offend at least one person. I didn't mean to offend anyone. I'm just VERY cautious. I humbly apologize to all who where even a small bit offended about this topic. I'm really sorry. --Dragon

Sam	16 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jade it is completely as normal and natural as heterosexuality or bi-sexuality. there is nothing to accept, nothing out of the ordinary. i don't think it's wrong either!

Shadow_Dragon	16 May 2002
Personally, I don't have a problem with people being bi-sexual, lesbains, or gays but I don't see it being natural. If it was natural then how would we reproduce?

kayne	17 May 2002
If you reread this thread you will see that that question has been covered here.

jade	17 May 2002
dragon, you did nothing wrong posting this thread. i send you love and hugs and lots of light. i think that the consencus on aeclectic is that we all love and accept ALL people regardless of race, beliefs and sexual preferences. i send everyone light. in light and love, jade :D

Jimilyn	17 May 2002
Dragon, To me, people are people. I don't necessarily have to agree or disagree with someone's political view, sexual preference, eating habits, etc. I look to see if they bring light, joy, and love to the world around them as that's the most important thing to me. Please don't feel badly for bringing up this topic. (((((Dragon))))) I'm sure it was important to you if you felt strongly enough to post it. If someone has a big problem with your lifestyle, you more than likely don't really want or need their energy in your life anyway. Just acknowledge and dismiss any negativity. Send the person/situation love and light. This is the same advice that I received several weeks ago. It's not always easy, but it does definitely shift the energy around a situation. Big hugs, Jimilyn

Diana	18 May 2002
Dragon: I want to echo Jade and Jimilyn. You did nothing wrong. The issue you brought up was one that was important to you. And when one sees the amount of responses it generated, it obviously is also an important one for many, many people. I for one want to thank you for being yourself, for speaking up for yourself and please, please, go on posting, okay??

Cat	18 May 2002
As a newbie, I was glad to come across this thread - it was somewhat divisive, but on the other hand, if a someone is concerned about other people's reactions to an aspect of their lives, it's probably best to get it out in the open and clear the air. It's certainly made me feel more comfortable; I'm bisexual, and while I've chosen to live with a man (the most wonderful one there is), I still feel that my orientation is something that I would like to be able to mention, without fear of a bad reaction - which happens all too often. blessings, C.

jade	18 May 2002
welcome cat :D in light, jade :)

sugar4paws	19 May 2002
Well, you have caught my eye again Slinky-jo. Thanks for another quote from Einstein. Sexual preference is the most immature and just plain ignorant basis on which to judge anyone. Really, I have to wonder why anyone cares. Adults should be able to do whatever they like as long as they don't harm another person or their property. This is called "freedom". We all want that so let's accord it to all. I have more understanding about attitudes in my Mom and Dad's generation because they truly were ignorant. Religion play's an important part in shaping people's attitudes also. Maybe each of us needs to think it out for ourselves, not automatically accepting what we may have learned from our churches or our families. Anyone who is able to establish a positive and loving relationship with another human being has my complete support. We all need each other in this world. We have enough problems to attend to--so let's eliminate this as a problem. sugar4paws

sugar4paws	19 May 2002
Dear Dragon, I just realized that you posted the original thread asking what we think about homosexuality. That was an interesting topic--sure got me thinking. But when I get on my soapbox about an issue I just go like a run-away train! Thank you for having the courage to suggest we explore our beliefs around honosexuality. I apologize to you for not being more sensitive and tactful. Anybody else out there who thinks I don't have a heart might as well know I cry over every little thing. Love to you all, sugar4paws

jade	19 May 2002
sugar, i agree with both of your posts and didn't find you insensitive at all. :) in light, jade

Sam	19 May 2002
i think it's totally fine. it's a life choice-just like reading tarot cards!

kayne	20 May 2002
Homosexuality is not a choice... I can choose to stop reading tarot (gods forbid!!! :P) but I can not choose to stop being attracted to the same sex.

jade	20 May 2002
so true. although i think that if i was in a situation where only women were available to me........like i was on an island with only women, i suppose that in time, i could evolve to be with a woman, but in my heart i would still be heterosexual. it's not a choice. love jade

Cat	20 May 2002
Since this thread seems to refuse to die :), I thought I might as well add some of the scientific info I have into the mix ( psychology degree - such a source of interesting yet useless info!) To opt not to have children is an evolutionarily valid choice - we are as related to our full siblings as we are to our children, so in assisting them to reproduce, some of our genetic code is also passed on. This is demonstrated in rodents (a mouse with litter will nurse her sister's offspring) and in birds ( the kenyan white fronted bee eater often spends a full breeding year assisting relatives in the rearing of young, instead of reproducing itself. A comprehensive study could find no other explanation, like increased experience, for this behaviour). Sexual orientation is partly determined by pre-natal environment. Girls whose mothers had high androgen levels in their blood during pregnancy are significantly more likely to be gay. Evidence for genetic factors in determining orientation is provided by the corelation between hand size and shape and sexual preference (correlation, not causal link). Logically, homosexuality is not a choice - we do not choose to be attracted to a given person / bodyshape / gender on a given day. A gay guy or girl can chose between living happily with someone of their prefered sex and not concealing an important part of themselves, and marrying out of fear of discovering and living a lie - but is that really much of a choice? Rant finished :) C

sugar4paws	20 May 2002
No human being should have to make such a choice! Being a sociologist ,Cat, we both have useless degrees but I appreciate the excellent scientific argument. Good rant. sugar4paws

jade	20 May 2002
excellent rant! LOL jade

floracove	21 May 2002
I did not read this thread, because I really didn't care what everyone else thought about it... I will tell you that I had some friends back in college (guys) some of them were absolute sweethearts and others were pure asses.(Which most people are one or the other) One night one of the guys asked me if I wanted to go to a bar in another town, and sure I went. We were not there even 15 min. before the rednecks had him pegged, even with me on his arm, we got out quick, and they followed us out of town hollering and the such, before we got in the car I turned around and told them what I thought of them, I am shy but put into confrontation gear I will stand my ground, weapon or no weapon...(meaning in their posession). And on the way home he broke down and cried, I think it really scared him... And he asked me, "What is it that makes you want a man and not a woman?" Well I told him that it was something inside me that I could not explain, just something that came naturally to me... and he said,"That's the way it is for me to." And he told me how he knew it was not natural, but that he had fought his feeling within himself for many years to the point of near brake-down and that he had been to phsycological dr's and that he finally gave up on fighting what was within himself and felt better about himself since... So I feel like to each his own, we do not posess the right to judge others, no matter how much better than they we think we may be. And that is my thoughts and opinion of that...

fairyhedgehog	21 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Cat Since this thread seems to refuse to die :), I thought I might as well add some of the scientific info I have into the mix Well said :) FH

Mystick Dragon	21 May 2002
This seems to be onw of the largest topics up here. Unless anyone has any other opinons, may I suggest closing the thread? --Dragon

jade	22 May 2002
i think that's a fair request. and since you started it, i will gladly grant your wish. in light, jade :)

The How do you guys feel about homosexuality? thread was originally posted on 04 Apr 2002 in the Chat board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Chat, or read more archived threads.