Magic? Magick...??

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 08 Apr 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Jenny-Li	08 Apr 2002
Hi! Here's a really stupid question, it will probably give me away completely and show you all what I loser I am - but I just have to know....! When I went to school and learned English, they said magic is spelled just so, with a plain 'c' in the end. Here, and other places too I think, but I can't think of any right now... Here I keep seeing the 'ck'-alternative all the time: Magick. Now here's the stupid question: is it the same thing, only spelled differently, or does it mean something else when it's spelled with a 'ck'...? I have a feeling there is a difference, but I can't quite figure it out... Help? Anyone want to rescue the not-so-clever blonde here....? *doohh* /Jenny :)

Silence Dogood	08 Apr 2002
Most of us who deal in magick ( spell casting, or other spell workings) do so because to separates us from the theatrical stage magicains who do 'slight of hand' or magic. Know any 'smart blonde' jokes? They are starting to become popular.

Jenny-Li	08 Apr 2002
OK - so it's basically a distinction between illusionists in the entertainment business and spell-workers? (I'm obviously not into spells myself, but I do have a vague but functionable idea of what it is...!) Thanks, that was an easier answer than I was expecting, but as I said - this blonde isn't always too clever...! ;) As for smart blondes-jokes - sorry no, the only blonde-jokes I do are about myself, I'm afraid! *laugh* Thanks for replying so quickly! Light, Jenny :D

Kiama	08 Apr 2002
Yep, Silence's explanation needs nothing adding to it. Perfectly succint and to the point. As a side note, I usually write 'magick' more than 'magic', cuz it isn't often that I refer to stage magic, so when it does come down to actually writing about magic, I end up spelling it with a K on the end, much to my English teacher's annoyance! Kiama

destinyawaitsme	08 Apr 2002
it's weird that you say that Kiama...I always find myself spelling it "wrong."

Diana	08 Apr 2002
Has this spelling and meaning been accepted yet by any latest editions of dictionaires? As far as I know, but please correct me if I'm wrong, it was invented by Wiccans especially to make this distinction. I have a 1988 Webster and it's not mentioned. And Jenny, will you please stop thinking that all your questions are silly LOL. I think they all come from a curious, enquiring mind and are really great. Will everyone please give a big round of applause for Jenny's questions :)

Malachite	08 Apr 2002
I usually view the difference in spelling as meaningless.. everyone knows the difference between the two forms of magic(k), whether they believe in it or not, so i only really use different spellings so as not to offend anyone that will assume i'm dissing their sacred rites as showmanship..;) however, seeing as i only really use the word here, and don;t frequent any illusionist forums, i'm tending to use magick as my usual spelling...unless i;m in a hurry and scribbling/typing fast....

Jenny-Li	08 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana And Jenny, will you please stop thinking that all your questions are silly LOL. I think they all come from a curious, enquiring mind and are really great. Will everyone please give a big round of applause for Jenny's questions :) Thanks Diana, you're really warming my humble heart here...! *blushing now* I do tend to feel like an outsider in many situations, but since I started to let myself grow inside (which mysteriously happened shortly after I started to learn the tarot - how about that, huh...?!), I refuse to let that set my limits. I make a lot of noice instead, and do a little show (some magiC, perhaps - smoke and mirrors...?!). It sure beats trying to hide away all my life...! But I do enjoy the forums, the friendliness and being able to share all the thoughts, big or small, that turn up in my head, get response and see it somebody elses way for a change! Thanks, all, for your replies! /Jenny :)

Malachite	08 Apr 2002
Hey...it gives us something to do... ;-)

Diana	08 Apr 2002
Jenny, if it's any comfort to you: when I joined these forums, a long long time ago, i.e. just over three months ago, I had never heard of the word "Wicca". This is a very anglo-saxon phenomenon, and if there are Wiccans in Switzerland, they certainly are far too discreet, for I have never heard of them, and I'm an avid reader and try and keep my ears and eyes wide open. So when I saw that there were "Wiccans" on these boards, I hadn't the slightest clue of what this meant. I mean it could have been anything from a salami sandwich to a secret wicked brainwashing sect. So I zoomed around the internet, rushed off to the local library and found some books on this "old-new" religion. And then I knew a little of what it was all about. And that's where I learnt about magick with a "k". And made lots of Wiccan friends. And learnt how tolerant and interesting they are. That's my little story to warm your heart a little more.

Malachite	08 Apr 2002
Diana... Perhaps, somewhere, Calvin is spinning, really, really fast in his grave.... ;)

jade	08 Apr 2002
i think it's totally up to the person too. i don't spell magic with a k. to me, it's just a 'trendy' way to spell the word. but that's just my humble opinion :D LOL jade

mystic	08 Apr 2002
and for me? mystic just wouldn't be the same....... I mean mystik? just doesn't do it for me :-))

Silence Dogood	08 Apr 2002
Why does it matter if it's in the dictionary or not? Somewhere in 'The Return of the King' one of the hobbits is having a discussion of the word 'hobbit' with Treebeard, who says the word is 'hobla'. When Treebeard gets told the hobbits created the word themselves, he is shocked that anyone would have the audacity to do such a thing! There are lots of 'dirty words' in the dictionary, so does that mean you should let your children use them? Because they are in the dictionary? Many computer terms were not in the dictionary for years after they were created. Someday 'magick' will be there , too.

jade	08 Apr 2002
or mystick LOL sounds like my stick. it totally looses your special uniqueness in that spelling! in light, jade

Silence Dogood	09 Apr 2002
If you go to Mystic , Connecticut (where they shot the movie 'Mystic Pizza') the seaport thingie is called 'Olde Mystick Village', so they obviously spelled it either way.

mystic	09 Apr 2002
Looking at Oxford and into the old Persian Texts the origins of Magic are fairly well documented. The words magic and magician have their roots in the Persian word magus. The English dictionaries indicate that these words passed through Greek, then Latin, into English. The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) records their first entering English in 1386 A.D. at a time when many Arabic words entered the English language through the countries of southern Europe. If, as indicated in the dictionaries, the words passed through Greek then Latin, they should have entered English at a much earlier date. Hence, there is a fair chance the Persian magus passed through Arabic into the European languages. The evidence shows that it entered English from Latin, which was the language of the learned in the 14th century. This word was spelled at the time of entry into English as "magic". "Magick" has been around before 1584. I'm looking into that origin and I'll let you know what I find!! Hope this gives you more meat for thought Jenny!!

Geenius at Wrok	09 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Has this spelling and meaning been accepted yet by any latest editions of dictionaires? As far as I know, but please correct me if I'm wrong, it was invented by Wiccans especially to make this distinction. I have a 1988 Webster and it's not mentioned. I've got the latest Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary, and "magick" isn't in there either. Quote: Originally posted by Silence Dogood Why does it matter if it's in the dictionary or not? It matters if you're an editor.

Malachite	09 Apr 2002
Y gess its one of those thinges that jyste dependes on what age of mankinde you learnede your englishe in...backe in the day, no one wot how to spell accordinge to any rules, so they spelt thinges how they liked...be it magic, magik, or magick, it sounds the same, and since no one was writinge it, it didn't really matter at the time...until recent times....

Kiama	09 Apr 2002
Damn, Malachite beat me to it! Yep, Middle English, as it is commonly known, is characterised by the writer making up his own words, and spelling things wildly! Geoffrey Chaucer did this alot, and Shakespeare, although Modern English, was on the Cusp, so he tended to make up his own words too... So, Mystic, if you do find 'Magick' it might just be because of this spelling thing, and not an actual difference between the type of magic they are talking about... Kiama

mystic	09 Apr 2002
I fully agree with you guys on this. magic was the "official" spelling of the time, as I'm sure was written many ways...magick being one of them.... :-))

Geenius at Wrok	10 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama So, Mystic, if you do find 'Magick' it might just be because of this spelling thing, and not an actual difference between the type of magic they are talking about... Pish-tosh. Silence and Jade are correct: "Magick" is an invented spelling deliberately created to carry a distinct connotation from stage "magic." If there's any connection at all to the days before orthographical correctness, it's that the "-ck" ending was deliberately chosen to resemble other antiquated spellings, giving it a patina of tradition.

Kiama	10 Apr 2002
What??? Geenius, I don't understand you properly. Yes, in the days of Golden Dawn and what-have-you, magick was deliberately chosen as 'ck' version cuz of the difference between stage magic and magick magick... But before the age of dictionaries and English lessons, people spelt stuff how the hell they felt like it! Therefore, it is sensible to come to the conclusion that any reference to 'magick' before the 17/18th century was just spelling 'errors' of the time, not a reference to occult practice. I would love to see somebody prove that Geoffrey Chaucer spelt magic with a 'k' on the end cuz he was an occultist! Kiama

Tarotbear 2	10 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Geenius at Wrok I've got the latest Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary, and "magick" isn't in there either. It matters if you're an editor. ***Accepting this as a slam against my editing the FACT deck*** There are many obscenities that are 'not' in the dictionary, yet we ALL know how to spell them, and we ALL know what they mean...some of us even use them from time to time. For me to edit them out of a piece 'because they are not in the dictionary' would be silly. As we have said, 'magick' is a manufactured word, manufactured for a reason and a purpose.

Geenius at Wrok	10 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama What??? Geenius, I don't understand you properly. Yes, in the days of Golden Dawn and what-have-you, magick was deliberately chosen as 'ck' version cuz of the difference between stage magic and magick magick... But before the age of dictionaries and English lessons, people spelt stuff how the hell they felt like it! Therefore, it is sensible to come to the conclusion that any reference to 'magick' before the 17/18th century was just spelling 'errors' of the time, not a reference to occult practice. Maybe it was I who didn't understand you properly. You're right, any olde-tyme use of the spelling "magick" is probably arbitrary and without connotation. I was simply emphasizing that there is no continuity between then-"magick" and now-"magick." Anyone who says they use the spelling "magick" today because That's How True Practitioners Always Did It is simply full of it, that's all. Quote: Originally posted by Tarotbear 2 ***Accepting this as a slam against my editing the FACT deck*** OK, whatever place you're in, you need to get out of it. I said "It matters if you're an editor" because I'm an editor, and I'm accustomed to having to choose one spelling as the "correct" one for the sake of consistency in a publication even when acceptable alternatives are listed in the dictionary. You're a stranger to me, and I don't even know what the "FACT deck" is, so there's no basis for thinking that I'm taking potshots at you.

Tarotbear 2	11 Apr 2002
Why not? Everyone else on this board takes potshots.

Diana	11 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Silence Dogood Why does it matter if it's in the dictionary or not? (........) Many computer terms were not in the dictionary for years after they were created. Someday 'magick' will be there , too. Actually, I didn't mean that being in a dictionary made "magick" an acceptable spelling or not. But my perception is that if this word was found in up-to-date dictionaries, this would give an indication as to how far Wicca and Paganism have become accepted in our Western society. Like all the computer terms, or modern slang. What was really in the back of my mind when I posted this was : "if magick with a k was in a dictionary, this would be a very good sign for Wiccans and Pagans, as this would hopefully be a sign of real, world-wide recognition". When I get a bee in my bonnet, it's hard to get it out. So I am going to compose a letter to the editors of Webster and of the Oxford dictionary, and remind them of magick with a k. (Even though I'm not Wiccan or Pagan, but I can stand up for other people's rights, no? :) )

jade	11 Apr 2002
good for you diana, take this and create a positive situation. *clapping* jade

Kiama	12 Apr 2002
Does anyone know what a word has to go through to be put in a dictionary? I heard something like it has to be in frequent and mainstream use for a certain number of years... Anyone know any more? I'mjust wondering if Magick woul qualify.... Kiama

Geenius at Wrok	12 Apr 2002
I've put the question to the language research folks at Merriam-Webster. I'll let you know what I find out.

arizonagirl	12 Apr 2002
Webster's New World dictionary says that 'magic' is derived from Middle English 'magike'

Geenius at Wrok	19 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Geenius at Wrok I've put the question to the language research folks at Merriam-Webster. I'll let you know what I find out. And here's the result: "Like the words that get entered in our dictionaries, variant spellings have to demonstrate that they've become established in the language before they can be included. We actively seek out evidence of new words, usages, and spellings; editors here spend an hour or so each day reading a variety of publications, including books, magazines, journals, and newspapers, looking for such evidence. What they find is entered into our database and is what we base all entries on. At present we have very little evidence of the spelling 'magick' in our files, but I expect we will accumulate more, as Wicca is growing in popularity and information about it is being published in texts with wide readership. If we do eventually gather enough evidence to enter 'magick,' its specific usage will probably require that it be distinguished from 'magic,' and not be entered simply as a variant spelling."

.dc	19 Apr 2002
heh... i spell magic(k) with a j ... always have done so. drove my college english professors CRAZY!!! =) blessed be, .dc "its MAJICK"

Tarotbear 2	19 Apr 2002
Very interesting to know...geenius. That you for that information. So then, why isn't f**k in most dictionaries then? Even grade school children are using it, know what it means, and probably the mechanics of it? Side note: In my Dictionary of Slang, the word 'goldbrick' does not appear....how did they miss that one?

Geenius at Wrok	20 Apr 2002
What dictionary are you using? Every collegiate dictionary I've ever seen lists it. Merriam-Webster also has listings for "fucked-up," "fucker" and "fuck off."

Tarotbear 2	20 Apr 2002
You won't find those in a dictionary intended for use in schools; but then my dictionary is maybe 15 years old.

Faerie Lin	04 Jun 2002
Bumped for Tarotlady in reference of Jenny-Li Lin

wavebreaker	04 Jun 2002
Thanks Faerie Lin! ;)

The Magic? Magick...?? thread was originally posted on 08 Apr 2002 in the Chat board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Chat, or read more archived threads.