A question about freemasonry.
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 08 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| Umbrae |
08 Jul 2002 |
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What do you folks know about freemasonry?
Are they really Satanists?
Are they part of the illuminati?
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| Phoenix |
08 Jul 2002 |
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I know little about it. They are not Satanists, because they believe in God, and I happen to be a Satanist, and I have no idea who the Illuminati are. Plus, I doubt that most don't even know what real Satanism is.
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| napaea |
08 Jul 2002 |
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i don't know much either, but have always been curious about them. what i do know is that they are supposed to be a secret society that recognizes and expresses spiritual truths through use of symbols that are connected to the building craft. like levels, compasses, slide rules. i don't know how it works at all.
Gerald Gardner, who was very active in introducing wiccan belief into the generalized public, was a freemason.
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| zorya |
08 Jul 2002 |
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}) i know that the majority of the lodges in the u.s. don't permit women. so what's with that umbrae? ................................. and pleeeaaase don't give us the "tradition" argument. that old excuse just won't fly.
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| Phoenix |
08 Jul 2002 |
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Then join the Order of The Eastern Star.
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| truthsayer |
08 Jul 2002 |
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i don't know if this answers your question but this is my experience. i wish i could remember if i read this about the freemasons or if it was another one of these all male organizations. i was searching for information on druidry over a year ago. i ran across a site that claimed they were american druids and followed similar traditions to the druids in europe. well, i made the innocent mistake of mentioning this to an european druid about american druids. at the time i didn't realize, there was such controversy b/t american groups like the freemasons and european druids. the european druids said the american "druid" groups aren't true druids and the american druid groups say they are. blah...blah...blah. i vacated myself from the conversation. i won't even get into the controversy b/t male and female druids!
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| Fox |
08 Jul 2002 |
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It's just a club, like boyscouts or something, only it was started ages and ages ago by masons who worked freely to build churches and stuff. It's not that they're against women, it's just a tradition, they probably do all sorts of fun boy things (as well as their worshiping and stuff). Here in Australia they've done some really good things, like raising thousands of $ for charities and scholarships and things. I'm a female btw, so this isn't a biased opinion.
I don't want to offend any masons out there, but I think they're pretty nerdy (the younger ones, anyway). Not that there's anything wrong with that.
That's what I got, anyway.
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| Mermaid |
08 Jul 2002 |
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A question for Phoenix - what is a Satanist? What do they do, and what do they believe in? (I'm genuinely curious as I know next to nothing about Satanism except what I've heard on the news ... and considering how wrong the media often is about pagan and witches, I'd hate to base my view of any alternative religion on mainstream media. ;))
Thankyou!
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| Phoenix |
08 Jul 2002 |
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Chrich of Satan is a great site, as Satanism 101. They will have all the info you need, although Satanism 101 is better. But we do not worship Satan! But, I am not a 'true' Satanist. I am pagan, but most of my beliefs come from Satanism.
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| destinyawaitsme |
08 Jul 2002 |
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Hey Phoenix,
Thanks for sharing the links...it goes to show you that you learn something new everyday. Although I don't think Satanism is for me, I respect it now. It isn't what I originally thought at all.(Sorry, sometimes my younger church experiences still get in the way of free-thought) But I love to learn new things. So thanks for sharing
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| Sorceress_Jade |
09 Jul 2002 |
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“... members of the ‘Craft,’ as it is called, claim that the Masonic lineage dates back to the builders of Solomon’s Temple, especially to Hiram Abiff. Evolving from the craft guilds of medieval English stonemasons, the formal organization of Freemasonry as we know it today began with the foundation of England’s Grand Lodge in 1717, whence it spread to become an international fraternity. Although Freemasonry propounds the well-known Christian tenets of brotherly love, faith and charity, it is open to all men – women are specifically excluded – who believe in a supreme being, the ‘Great Architect of the Universe.’ Notable Freemasons have included Sir Christopher Wren, Mozart, Napoleon, some European royalty and sixteen U.S. presidents. In common with Rosicrucianism, the highly ritualized and secretive practices of Freemasonry are based on degrees of initiation, involving the individual’s ‘death’ and ‘rebirth,’ in which increasing amounts of esoteric knowledge are I imparted.” – The Occult: A sourcebook of esoteric wisdom by Nevill Drury and Gregory Tillett (subsequently an EXCELLENT book, despite the horribly unoriginal title)
If that's any help at all. Also, I totally recommend reading Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible to anyone with curiosity and an open mind. Many of my beliefs are based on his ideas. While I don't wholly agree with him, you have to admit he makes some awefully valid points. An excellent read, till you get to all the ritual mumbo jumbo. It's like he saw the begats and decided his bible needed something equally as boring. lol
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| Umbrae |
09 Jul 2002 |
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But...
Are they (Freemasons) part of the illuminati? The Tri-Lateral Commission?
Most of the Golden Dawn guys were Masons, as was Court de Ge’belin, E’liphas Le’vi, George Washington, Ben Franklin, a host of other (actually a goodly number of US Presidents), Waite was a Mason, as was Pamela Colman-Smith, Masonic symbolism is rampant in the RW deck…
So tell me my friends, what is your opinion of the Freemasons? Who do you think they are (without digging beyond what you know now)?
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| Mermaid |
09 Jul 2002 |
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Thanks Phoenix, that was really interesting. I think I might have to get hold of the book they talk about and have a read.
Sorry Umbrae - I know nothing at all about Freemasons!
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| Kiama |
09 Jul 2002 |
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Umbrae yu little stirrer you! ;) :* :* :* *Kiama laughs*
Okay, this is the image of Freemasons that I was brought up with:
They are a group of blokes who meet secretly in a huge white building, and do arcane rituls. They do secret handshakes.
Yep that's what I was brought up to think. Now, I know no more about Freemasons, but would dearly love to know more. I recently met three Freemasons who were donating a lot of money to the voluntary organisation I belong to, St John Ambulance. I heard that Freemasons donate a lot of money to charities. Is that right at least? :D I don't know much about the Freemasons, and didn't speak to the Freemasons that I met, and all I know is that one of them was drop dead sexy. })
Kiama
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| tigerlily |
09 Jul 2002 |
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Sorry, Umbrae, all I know about Freemasons is what I learned from watching the one episode where Homer Simpson joined them })
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| Phoenix |
09 Jul 2002 |
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Kiama, they do donate a lot of money to charities, as well as to medical research to find cures for cancer et al.
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| floracove |
09 Jul 2002 |
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Well I don't know why, but for some reason I thought they were like part of the Catholic religion...
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| Sorceress_Jade |
09 Jul 2002 |
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Originally posted by Umbrae
Do not read the book!
Why not? It's excellent, I've read it and wish I owned it.
I'm not saying by any means that I agree with him wholy, otherwise I would consider myself a Satanist. However, just because he has a deep seated hatred for Chrisitanity and a need to mock the religion, and just because he wanted to be sensationalized, doesn't mean that some of his ideas aren't valid or at least incredibly interesting. Almost anyone can be discredited on the hypocrysy of their life. I'm not reading the book because of LaVey, I'm reading it for the content. :)
Anyhow, lol, off of the tangent and back to the subject at hand.
If anyone has heard of Shriners, they are a level within Freemasonry. We have a Shriners children's hostpital in my area that is a huge part of the community. They do incredibly things in the lives of children.
I know that Freemasonry's initiation rituals are sins according to the bible (due to the words and ideas that they involve).
My mind has blitzed all the sudden, i know i know more. Grr.
I have yet to find any information on the Illuminate, so I couldn't say what the correlation would be.
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| Umbrae |
09 Jul 2002 |
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Originally posted by Sorceress_Jade
I know that Freemasonry's initiation rituals are sins according to the bible (due to the words and ideas that they involve).
Uh...I had not heard that. Any idea what sins?
Any ideas on the relationship between Waite, Coleman-Smith, and the Tarot (since they were Masons)?
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| Phoenix |
09 Jul 2002 |
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Umbrae, how could Pamela Colman-Smith be a Mason?? They do not allow women. Now, it would be different if she was part of the OES. Are you confusing the Freemasons with the Order Of The Golden Dawn, because they were both a part of it?
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| La La |
09 Jul 2002 |
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Interesting subject
I've read a book about the christian religion that maintains christ didn't die on the cross and left the middle east with Mary Magdalan (who was with child) and settled in the south of france. The french are supposed to have extremely old sites that revere Mary as a saint (not christs mother but his wife)
Anyway the story goes that the Plantagenate (spell?) family is the blood line of christ and the freemasons were the protectors of the family and the keepers of the their secret. It was from this basis that the masons went on to form the Knights Templar and justified their claim to take back the holy places in the east.
That's just a story I've heard, my grandfather was a mason and I have a curious array of inherited parafenalia such as sashes and books but they are written so crypticaly that I can't make out what they stood for although biblical references abound.
So I can't really make any judgements but that's what I know
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| zorya |
09 Jul 2002 |
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[quote]Originally posted by Umbrae
[b]Some Masonic organizations accept women. Some do not.
might that not more accurately read , a few accept women, the majority do not?
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| floracove |
09 Jul 2002 |
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One of the things I learned while going to the Morman church is that after Mary M. was forgiven of her sins that Jesus did marry her, and the wedding that he performed the water into wine was his wedding.
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| jmd |
10 Jul 2002 |
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I stumbled across this thread a little by accident.
As has been pointed out, there are Masonic Lodges which accept and initiate women (in the 19th century, a Lodge of male Freemasons in France decided to initiate a woman, hence the beginning of what has become a multi-national organisation - Le Droit Humain - also known as co-masonry). Relative to what is referred to as the male Craft, co-masonry remains quite small.
It should also be pointed our that this is quite separate - and different - to the Order of the Eastern Star.
Masonry has been discussed a number of times on this Forum, including this thread on the Ten of Pentacles.
Essentially, Masonry consists of a basic three degrees, with a further 30 in what is referred to as the Ancient and Accepted rite (actually of more recent origin, despite its name, than the 'basic' three degrees). The Rite of Memphis, amongst others, includes an even greater number of degrees (90 +), but these, in my (and others') opinion relate in some way to the 33 degrees of the Ancient and Accepted rite.
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| Umbrae |
10 Jul 2002 |
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This site contains a lot of references in the Majors: http://www.geocities.com/~ninalee/oneill/0.htm
In the minors, off the top of my head, 7 of Wands, 6 of Pentacle, and the 3 of Pentacles both are full of Masonic symbolism.
On one hand we have the founders of the Golden Dawn; “S.L. Macgregor Mathers, William Wynn Wescott & Dr. W. Robert Woodman were the founding members & were Masons. I think Wescott was the moving force behind the formation of the Golden Dawn; apparently enlisted Mathers & Woodman as members. Wescott's background in Masonic rituals influenced his contributions to the Golden Dawn teachings [copied from a prior post by meewah].”
We have the Rider-Waite deck, which is so pivotal to modern tarot reading and theory…and it is a dead end of knowledge as far as its Masonic tie-ins.
Methinks there is some learning out there to be done.
When you read through “A Wicked Pack of Cards: The Origins of the Occult Tarot
by Ronald Decker, Thierry Depaulis (Contributor), Michael Dummett” you will find that all of the influential folks during the development of Tarot as an oracular or divinatory device belonged to the Masons at one time or another.
When you think back about the history of the US, you will find that the ‘founding fathers’ were all Masons [all of the signers of the declaration of independence and most of the signers of the constitution], and the Boston Tea Party was held during a stated meeting (in their initiation costumes, so folks thought they were dressed as Indians [native americans]).
Good old US Currency has Masonic symbols.
How does it tie into Tarot? They share many symbols, and many concepts are illustrated on the cards.
Something to contemplate.
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| zorya |
10 Jul 2002 |
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i really don't know much of anything about masonic symbols, but i wonder if they were not borrowed from elsewhere themselves? or put together from other older symbols? and... are not a great many of these symbols universal?
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| jmd |
11 Jul 2002 |
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Masonry is said to be veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols. In a sense, this also implies that the symbols unveil the allegories therein used.
As to whether the symbols are themselves used in other places, this is certainly the case. The important point to remember, however, is that the symbols are Masonic (ie, of relevance to masonic use: architects, stone-masons, etc).
Whether, for example, pillars of the five noble orders of architecture are used, or the square and compasses, or the rough ashlar, or the 24 inch gauge, or a tracing board - all these are, in the above sense, truly Masonic.
When one deals with 'higher' degrees, however, the symbols do go beyond the strictly masonic. Therein, the living symbols of 'deeper' initiatic and esoteric significance make their mark: the ladder, the triple Tau-Cross, the Pelican, etc.
I would personally recommend contacting a local Masonic lodge (co-masonry if a woman) and obtaining further information first-hand if your interests lie in that area. I should point out, however, that, as in society at large, only a relative minority of Freemasons share an interest in Tarot.
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| tabbycat |
11 Jul 2002 |
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La La said
I've read a book about the christian religion that maintains christ didn't die on the cross and left the middle east with Mary Magdalan (who was with child) and settled in the south of france...
Anyway the story goes that the Plantagenate (spell?) family is the blood line of christ
The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail and, IIRC, it wasn't the Plantagenets, but the Merovingian kings. Don't think we have any of that bloodline in the current Royal family in the UK. Princess Diana was reputed to be distantly related to the line; some conspiracy theorists think that why she was killed and believe that the place in Paris where it happened has a mythic significance.
As for the Illuminati, the most enjoyable, although not strictly the most factual, source of information is the Illuminatus! triology by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea. I read it at an impressionable age and it's the kind of book that can radically change your worldview. ;)
I'm ashamed to admit that my first thought when I crawled out of my post-migraine bed on Sept 11 and heard that the Pentagon had been attacked by terrorists was 'Oh no - who's going to draw the chalk line to keep the Soul-Eater locked up inside it?'
Jilly
Hail Eris! All hail Discordia!
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| Daria |
14 Jul 2002 |
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To address earlier comments, the Masons have never been an offshoot of Catholicism. I think Catholics weren't allowed to be Masons but I don't know if its still true. Isn't that why the Catholics have the Knights of Columbus?
Also, the Templars came first - they were outlawed in 1307. The Masons were formed in the early 1700's and claim descent from the Templars. I guess it could be true but there is no conclusive proof.
The comment about many of the Founding Fathers being Masons is true too. Why is that never mentioned when they're being discussed? Where else could we possibly have gotten the idea of separation of Church and State? That was a very radical idea back then.
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| january |
14 Jul 2002 |
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When I was 12, I was initiated into the International Order of Rainbow, which is the Masonic branch for girls aged 12-19. When a girl turns 20 she can get her "majority" and be considered for the Order of Eastern Star. Boys had a similar division, DeMolay. I also know that for a man to become a Shriner or Jester (a sort of elite Mason) he first needs to be an active Mason.
Our meetings were every 2 weeks and full of rituals and we had to promise to never tell the secrets of the Order. We greeted each other with the "sign of the Rainbow", wore white dresses and gowns, had ranks of officers and sang Christian hymns. We did a lot of charity work - that was pretty much the focus. And if I remember correctly, Catholics weren't considered for membership. That's about all I know.
And that I really hated it :mad:
~ january
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| napaea |
03 Aug 2002 |
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well, my only other input (trying to type with cat on my lap...forgive errors please)
i went to dinner recently, and i kept feeling this old guy looking at me. so i looked at him, and it seemed like he was talking to me in my head, or trying to, but i couldn't hear him. we had some interesting energy connection.
as he stood there, i noticed he wore a ring that had a symbol on it, i believe it was a mason symbol. so we keep looking at each other and i really think he might be talking to me.
we ended up at the same table (seats 8 at a japanese steak house) and at some point in the evening he came by us and said something, i don't remember what, but it was nice small talk.
i asked him if he was celebrating something, cause i felt like that might be the case. he just laughed secretly and walked off.
i swear, if i were further along spiritually we could have conversed all night with no one knowing. he seemed very kind and gentle.
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| Kaleidoscope Eyes |
03 Aug 2002 |
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Originally posted by Umbrae
What do you folks know about freemasonry?
Are they really Satanists?
Are they part of the illuminati?
Iteems Freemasonry came up some months ago, and I think I posted this then; it's so good, and gets so right to the heart of the question, it bears posting once more:
Freemasons, n. An order with secret rites, grotesque ceremonies and fantastic costumes, which, originating in the reign of Charles II, among working artisans of London, has been joined successively by the dead of past centuries in unbroken retrogression until now it embraces all genrations of man on the hither side of Adam and is drumming up distinguished recruits among the pre-Creational inhabitants of Chaos and the Formless Void. The order was founded at different times by Charlemagne, Julius Caesar, Cyrus, Solomon, Zoroaster, Confucius, Thothmes, and Buddha. Its emblems and symbols have been found in the catacombs of Paris and Rome, on the stones of the Parthenon and the Chinese Great Wall, among the temples of Karnak and Palmyra and in the Egyptian pyramids -- always by a Freemason.
(Ambrose Bierce, The Devils Dictionary)
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| lunar_rabbit |
03 Aug 2002 |
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Originally posted by january
.....Boys had a similar division, DeMolay. I also know that for a man to become a Shriner or Jester (a sort of elite Mason) he first needs to be an active Mason. .... We did a lot of charity work - that was pretty much the focus. And if I remember correctly, Catholics weren't considered for membership. That's about all I know.
My husband is Catholic, as were most of his friends growing up, and they belonged to DeMolay. Which is, as you mentioned a youth organization spun off of the Masons. As someone above mentioned, it was similar to the Boy Scouts in that they met periodcially and did charitable work, went camping, etc. It is by no means Satanic or even very mystical as far as I can tell.
There are a lot of myths and exaggerations about Masons, saying they are satanists and whatnot. In fact, it's not a religion. It's a fraternal organization.
For those of you interested in some history and a bit of explanation, here is a useful website http://www.msana.com/historyfm.htm The tabs along the left side of the page address most of the topics brought up in this thread.
Hope this helps answer the original question.
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| DarkElectric |
03 Aug 2002 |
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I have a book I am not supposed to have. It is called "Morals and Dogma"(ancient and accepted rite). It is the actual and legitemate text used by freemasons in their lodges. It was supposed to be returned to the lodge upon the death of it's owner. That didn't happen. It ended up in a dusty second hand bookstore on CapeCod. Where it sat for years until discovered and purchased by me. This book contains so much material that it is impossible to paraphrase here, but for brevity's sake...Much of it is based on Quaballah. In fact, the best explanation of quaballistic theory I have gotten comesfrom this book. Isis, Osirus and Horus figure promenantly. And JHVH of course. It is a philosophy for societal construction based on theoligical principles. And as far as 'Illuminati", I don't know much about that. I wish I could explain this book in more detail. Sorry! (It's huge and there's so much to it on many levels. Not a light read by any means!)
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| jmd |
04 Aug 2002 |
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I presume that when Daria wrote 'The comment about many of the Founding Fathers being Masons is true too. Why is that never mentioned when they're being discussed? Where else could we possibly have gotten the idea of separation of Church and State?', it was in reference to one particular country? This certainly does not seem to apply to the many countries of residence of Aeclectic members.
With regards to DarkElectric finding a particular book, don't assume that you shouldn't have it. On the contrary - you may have been in some way guided to its location. Why not try to contact a local Lodge and talk to some members?
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The A question about freemasonry. thread was originally posted on 08 Jul 2002 in the Chat board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Chat, or read more archived threads.
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