I'm am such a horrible person!

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 12 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Sam	12 Jul 2002
Last night, I was at the mall with my mom, shopping. I was looking for a new pair of shoes for junior high. I was getting really desprate, so I even went as far as to TRY ON a pair of nike's. I had only one shoe on when I instantly felt horrible! I almost started crying, because I thought of all those slave laborers at the nike factory, working their asses off, and getting paid a meager quater a day, not even enough to support themselves, much less a family! I once bought a pair of nikes, i regret to say, but then i was ingnorant to such slave labor. i feel so horrible! Oh, yeah, I ended up with a perfect pair of vans, my mom hates them and I love them. But I still feel sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo horrible! -sigh-

Lightlike	12 Jul 2002
Don't be so hard on yourself Sam, you're not a horrible person. In fact, from your posts you sound pretty cool. The ones that should feel horrible are the corrupt CEOs and what not at Nike that have all the luxuries in the world and don't care that their company uses child/slave labor. They are the ones that are really horrible. Your conscience is working and that's great even though it can tear you up at times. Forgive yourself, ok?

Pollux	12 Jul 2002
You didn't buy a pair of Nike because you thought of all those slave laborers at the Nike factory, mostly kids exploited to unconceivable extent... Only a VERY HORRIBLE person could do that! I am shocked! ;)

Dark Inquisitor	12 Jul 2002
Hi Sam ! You are going to encounter these feelings all your life, because you're a caring and very intelligent young person. So, somehow, you will have to find a way to have balance. I have a little knowledge about the problem of third world labor. There is no good solution. The responsibility lies with the CEO's and the people that run the factories overseas--and the leaders of those poor countries. (payoffs may be involved, you never know) On one hand, if American stores don't have products to sell, our economy will go bust. And more people will suffer. Then the whole world will suffer, because our economies are tied together. Sometimes products can't be made in America at a competitive price, and sometimes the middlemen are just totally greedy beyond all bounds. Another thing to remember is that sometimes the standards of living in the other country are so low, the wages that look appalling to us are average for them. A poor person like me might be able to move there and live like a really rich person because the prices are so different. Some countries are so awful that children have to work, or they or their families will literally die. And the unpleasant reality is that if that job in the factory weren't there for them, they might have to do something a lot worse just to survive. (Use your imagination here, and then make it 100x worse.) This does not excuse the situation. But it's not just shoes. These products are spread all thru our economy and our daily lives. Even when an item is marked made in the USA, it can have parts made overseas and just be assembled here. Maybe the only way it will change is when the workers themselves can unite. Until then, I guess you can pray for world enlightenment or something. Wish I had a better solution for you... Tarotphelia

cherrywind	12 Jul 2002
Unfortunately Sam, I wouldn't hesitate to say that the majority of products on first world country's shelves are made by slave labour. And even if the finished product isn't made by slave labour, the raw materials most likely were aquired through many of the same means. My favourite shoes always prided themselves on being made in the U.S., but unfortunately it came to the point in time where if they didn't move to Viet Nam (I believe) then they would have to file bankruptcy. This is converse I'm talking about. Even before they moved to Asia I often wondered how they were aquiring the rubber or canvas or metal. I wear levis, and even though it says they're made in the states, I still wonder where they get the dyes and cotton. You just never know about stuff like that unless you do some major research, and even then it's really hard to find out. Most companies don't revel in the fact that they're violating about a billion human rights. Not good for business you know :rolleyes:.

Marion	12 Jul 2002
And not only human rights, but they are flagrantly doing things to the environment in Third World countries that they would never do at home. Dumping poisons in the rivers and the air, totally ignoring safety and health standards, it is appalling.

kayne	12 Jul 2002
You did the right thing Sam, it is sometimes the best thing we can do - just don't buy them! If everyone took that stance then the companies would either go out of business or have to seriously consider alternate ways of producing their products to keep the consumers happy...

Faerie Lin	13 Jul 2002
Hi Sam, I know exactly how you feel! I have always had a strong opinion about me not EVER wanting to buy anything with DIAMONDS, 'cause of the stories I hear about slavery in Africa, alot of children die working to mine diamonds. So my husband goes, "You know..... children in Africa die also because of chocolate." I was like. "Nah uh!" -Chocolate is my obsession.- And so I did some research about it, and yep its true. On the Ivory Coast, so many children are forced into labor for this and are beaten and some die. Here is a link that I recently found.. http://www.freetheslaves.net/ on another site, I read that 50% of all chocolate originates from the Ivory Coast.... I hope this isn't true, but it probably is. Lin

wavebreaker	13 Jul 2002
We have an organization in the Netherlands called "Max Havelaar", which is basically a quality mark that is given to products that are produced without child/slave labour and which are bought directly from the farmers for decent prices. It's used for example for chocolate, coffee, tea and bananas. So if a product has this quality mark, you know you're helping the Third World; in other words: you can help the Third World by eating loads of chocolate!! ;) I looked up their website and I found that they are part of an international organization for Fair Trade. You might want to check out the international website to find out whether there's a local organization.

Faerie Lin	13 Jul 2002
Thanx Tarotlady, The Fair Trade is mentioned on the site I gave, I didn't mention it 'cause I thought others would find it themselves. Thanx for the extra info also! Lin

Geenius at Wrok	13 Jul 2002
Hey Sam, this link may interest you: www.customatix.com I have several pairs of shoes from this company. They look great and hold up nicely.

Phoenix	13 Jul 2002
*looks at feet* *sees Nike shoes* Am I inhuman, because I don't feel anything when I buy Nike??

Sam	13 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Phoenix *looks at feet* *sees Nike shoes* Am I inhuman, because I don't feel anything when I buy Nike?? no, i don't think so. i think you just feel more strongly about other humanitarian issues.

Jimilyn	13 Jul 2002
Hey, Sam! :) The very best thing you could have done is what you did. You did what your conscience told you to do. Others buy Nike shoes and don't worry about it...and that's fine for them. But even though you put on one shoe, you didn't buy them when your heart was pleading with you not to buy them. That's great. Lots of our young people would have bought them anyway because they're a popular brand. That's fine for them. But you are following your heart...and that's very honorable. Try not to feel guilty...you did follow your heart. :) Jimilyn

Rain	14 Jul 2002
Look Sam, its good that you have a concience, but I also think that you are being too hard on your self. There is nothing wrong with buying a pair of Nikes...if you feel there is, then you might as well never buy clothes, or eat at Burger King again ( I work there an am absolutely underpaid. ) I agree with the others...Nike should feel terrible about what they are condoning...don't get your drawers all in a twist over it. It's good that you feel bad, but don't feel too bad. Continue shopping and remember, Junior High is all about the clothes...trust me. Blessings, Rain

floracove	14 Jul 2002
Read this again and then tell me your a horrible person. I don't think so...sounds like a bit of wisdom showing there. Have you any silver hair? Quote: Originally posted by Sam no, i don't think so. i think you just feel more strongly about other humanitarian issues.

Geenius at Wrok	14 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Rain Look Sam, its good that you have a concience, but I also think that you are being too hard on your self. There is nothing wrong with buying a pair of Nikes... Rain, when you get a chance, you should read "No Logo" by Naomi Klein.

Sam	14 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by floracove Have you any silver hair? even though this is way off subject (thanks everyone), i don't have GRAY hair, but i have some natural blonde highlights that LOOK white and gray.

mondk	15 Jul 2002
You horrible person, you!!! (LOL) Do you know that this post/thread was the very last post I read before leaving my computer and heading off to bed? You will never guess what I dreamed about...I dreamed my son was vomiting into a brand-new white Nike shoe!!! What do you think of that??? Blessings, M.

Sam	15 Jul 2002
i think your son and i should get in touch! lol!

purplelady	15 Jul 2002
I read through quite a bit on the site posted by faerie lin freetheslaves.com. It's actually a very complicated issue. What I got from reading the articles is a sense of Why these people and children are enslaved on a governmental and international level which reaches from that slave child, to the silk factory owner or coca farmer to the government of africa and india and other 3 rd world countries, and some not so 3 rd world countries, to the US and other "civilized" countries. One part of it is that the US and other wealthy countries encouraged the leaders of countries like africa and india to take out large loans. The loans now have huge interest that those governments and countries cannot possibly pay back. If anyone knows what it feels like to have bills that you can't pay, or debt with high interest etc, you can maybe get a tiny glimpse on a very tiny scale of what that country (africa, india, and others ) must be feeling! They are using the child slave labour as an attempt to pay a debt they can't possibly repay anyhow. Well, looking at it as a Whole (the whole world and it's economy and how one countries economy and debts affect another) it is a Hugely complicated affair! I sure don't condone child slavery or any slavery. But I can get a sense of the sheer desperation and financial desperation of the parent who sold the child, the government and economy that maybe offers no better choice to the adults involved? What a screwed up world, huh? truly. Well , I guess it sold me on the US forgiving those countries debts to us. But would even that fix everything all for the better and abolish all slavery? And even if I did quit buying Nike shoes, or anything made of silk, or diamonds , or "gasp!" chocolate! how much difference would that really make? Wouldn't there very soon just pop up some Other product? It could be Anything. Got any great answers?

purplelady	15 Jul 2002
You're not a horrible person at all sam, in fact I think you're pretty neat ;) I wish I knew the answer to fix it all after reading That!( freetheslaves.com). I guess I have this feeling like what good does it do to boycott one or two particular products becuase some other product will pop up. OR , like it says in those articles, the companies will hide that they are using child slaves. They tell the US that they do Not use child slaves and they are lying. The only way we found out they do (in the silk trade) is by reporters going undercover. And then they have to follow the mislabeled piece of silk from india to italy etc. So................how many products have Not been in the spotlight Yet, or have we not sent undercover reporters in Yet to discover something awful?! We need a Huge worldwide solution! Sorry to get so carried away here!

jade	15 Jul 2002
another aspect that many people don't think about here is the fact that in these countries the children have to work in order for the family to afford to eat. when the jobs are stopped or taken away.........the children loose that income and the family goes hungry. yes, it's a complicated situation, but as some families need both parents to work (here in canada) so that they can afford a home and a vehicle (and some luxeries)....if someone came and said that it was unfair to have women work and fired them all.....many canadians would loose their homes. (yes, i realize having women working and child labour is totally different - i'm just trying to offer an analogy that we can all relate to) just offering another aspect of this sad situation, jade

Faerie Lin	16 Jul 2002
Purplelady and Jade, You've made me feel ALOT better about my "not being able to give up chocolate." Sam, I'm hoping you feel somewhat better also. Lin

wavebreaker	16 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by purplelady We need a Huge worldwide solution! Sorry to get so carried away here! Yes, we do, but all big solutions start small, for example by boycotting one product and buying one product that you know is "good". If everyone would do that, that would be the start of a big solution... ;) Quote: Originally posted by jade another aspect that many people don't think about here is the fact that in these countries the children have to work in order for the family to afford to eat. when the jobs are stopped or taken away.........the children loose that income and the family goes hungry. True, but there are other solutions than just take away the jobs, such as giving these children an education, so they can get proper jobs to provide for themselves and their families. So we could help out by supporting charities that provide structural help in poor countries; charities that don't just give money and food, because those are only short-term solutions, but charities that provide people with a way to look after themselves in the long run.

jade	16 Jul 2002
i find it funny that the solution is "give them education". here in north america we give our children education and what happens? do they provide for themselves better? not necc. - they just increase the "minimum requirements" on jobs..........i know too many people with B.A.'s that end up being management at a fast food restaurant cause they can't find any work else and i know jobs that needs about a grade 3 education to do the job that require a high school graduate or a B.A. because soooo many people are going for higher education now that they have just upped the minimum. i don't think that education is the answer. i think that paying these people a decent wage for what they do is the answer! and EVERYTIME that you go into a dollar or discount store you are supporting their LOWER WAGES. everytime you buy a product they make at those low rates.........you give their company the message to "MAKE MORE". and what do we, society, do about it? we want bigger, better, moremoremoremoremore. we are a throw away society rather than a "fix it" society. when you last appliance broke down...........what did you do? did you go to a repairman and get it fixed. rewired or whatever was necc. to get it back up and working? probably not. instead you went to a store and bought a new one......either trashing the old one or sending it to the thrift store. if we stopped buying new ones..........if we supported our earth better.........then the money we saved could go to assisting the poor in our country and others. when was the last time (honestly) that you supported your local food bank AND your local soup kitchen? i am of the belief that we need to clean up our own backyard before we go messing around trying to clean up someone else's. especially since we haven't even been over to their backyard to play!!! how do we honestly know what they need when we haven't experienced their customs and lifestyle. jade

wavebreaker	16 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jade i find it funny that the solution is "give them education". here in north america we give our children education and what happens? do they provide for themselves better? not necc. - they just increase the "minimum requirements" on jobs..........i know too many people with B.A.'s that end up being management at a fast food restaurant cause they can't find any work else and i know jobs that needs about a grade 3 education to do the job that require a high school graduate or a B.A. because soooo many people are going for higher education now that they have just upped the minimum. Jade, I'm talking here about basic education: teaching children to read and write. I'm not talking about giving people university degrees so they don't want to do "simple" jobs anymore. This isn't about North America, this is about the Third World, where most children never get to go to school at all. This weekend, I saw clips on tv about children doing child labour. One of them was about a father and his three children, 9, 7 and 3 years old, working in a mine 12 hours a day, doing dangerous work, just to get a bit of food. These children never have a childhood. Paying them decent wages won't give them back a childhood. And they will have to keep doing the same work day in and day out, for the rest of their life, and their children and their grandchildren will have the same miserable life. It's a vicious circle that they will never get out of. Quote: i am of the belief that we need to clean up our own backyard before we go messing around trying to clean up someone else's. especially since we haven't even been over to their backyard to play!!! how do we honestly know what they need when we haven't experienced their customs and lifestyle Yes, we should clean up our own backyards too, but that doesn't mean we don't have to assist others and we can simply close our eyes to other people's needs just because "we haven't experienced their customs and lifestyle". Some needs are universal, such as the need for food and shelter and human/children's rights. This is not about biggerbiggerbigger, moremoremore, but about basic needs: food, shelter, the things that are taken for granted so much by most of us that we don't even realise anymore that there are millions of people all over the world who have to struggle every single day to get these needs. And for some, even their struggle isn't enough...

purplelady	16 Jul 2002
Jade wrote: "I find it funny that the solution is "give them an education" I don't think that education is the answer,I think that paying these people a decent wage for what they do is an answer!" I TOTALLY agree jade, I think that everyone, everywhere needs to be paid at least a living wage, a wage where you can at least meet the basic requirements of living (food, shelter, housing) that includes "women's work like nurses, and teachers, also cleaning ladies, retail workers, fast food workers. And people also need benefits like medical insurance. But how many of these people have benefits? How many companies now make it a practice to hire for ONLY the hours per week that WON'T qualify the worker for any benefits? They also won't qualify for unemployment when they are "let go", or forced to quit. Even offices now decide to hire 4 secretaries for 10 hours a week each, instead of one full time secretary so that they won't have to provide any benefits to any one of them. If you ask me, I think the american workplace has become a much more Hostile place than in the past. It isn't so much the job itself or the environment. It's that you are totally unappreciated and totally disposable.They go out of their way to come up with ways to never give you any type of benefits, and get rid of you before you are up for a raise or have any rights. Also, it doesn't matter if you bust your butt working extra time, or fill in for someone who is sick when they desperately need someone to. They won't care one bit when it comes time to get rid of you. (Time to end this rant even though there's a lot more where that came from!) jade wrote: "And Everytime that you go into a dollar or a discount store, you are supposrting their LOWER WAGES. Everytime you buy a product they make at these Lower rates, you are giving that company the message "Make More"!" O.K. jade , I admit I shop at these places because I am on a very tight budget. It's a vicious cycle! But how many people on a tight budget are willing to shop at a store where items of pretty much the same value cost more? Even many people with a lot of money are bargain shoppers! If every worker were paid a "living wage" I think it would help solve this problum though.

wavebreaker	16 Jul 2002
Purplelady: please reread my post, I was referring to child labour in Third World countries, not to the American workplace....

purplelady	16 Jul 2002
Tarotlady, I know that, I guess one subject just led to another! And Labour Laws and practices in other countries led me to talk about the US.

jade	17 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by tarotlady a father and his three children, 9, 7 and 3 years old, working in a mine 12 hours a day, doing dangerous work, just to get a bit of food. These children never have a childhood. Paying them decent wages won't give them back a childhood. i disagree with you. if you pay the father a decent wage, then his children won't have to work...........he would be able to support them and they could have an education. it works here!!! in light, jade

wavebreaker	17 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jade i disagree with you. if you pay the father a decent wage, then his children won't have to work...........he would be able to support them and they could have an education. it works here!!! Ok, maybe I understood you wrong before, but I understood that you were saying that these people, including children, just should be paid more. I strongly disagree with paying children more, because in my view they shouldn't be working at all. However paying the parents more so they can afford an education for their children, that I agree with. So I think that in the end we do agree... ;) However, I doubt whether it's as "easy" as that in Third World countries, because where do the wages have to come from if they don't have the money in the first place? And what about the influence of all these huge western companies who are now getting their cheap labour in Third World countries? As long as people aren't prepared to pay a bit more for their products in the western world, so that labourers in Third World countries get a decent wage, I'm afraid that's not going to happen... :( Or maybe I'm just too pessimistic here, I hope so...

jade	17 Jul 2002
well, to solve problems you have to create change. there is no solution that doesn't involve change. so they would have to paid more, and we would have to pay more. it's just that simple! really it is simple, it's just getting the companies to all agree to implement it that is the tough part. in light, jade

wavebreaker	17 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jade so they would have to paid more, and we would have to pay more. it's just that simple! really it is simple, it's just getting the companies to all agree to implement it that is the tough part. I'm afraid getting people to pay more is pretty tough... I can see it in the supermarket, where for example they sell both "normal" bananas and "free trade" bananas. The latter are more expensive. I see people picking them up, looking at the price, and putting them down again to take the "normal", cheaper bananas. Unfortunately, a lot of people just don't realize that these few extra cents, which are NOTHING to us, mean a lot to people on the other side of the world. But it won't stop me from doing my little bit... ;)

The I'm am such a horrible person! thread was originally posted on 12 Jul 2002 in the Chat board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Chat, or read more archived threads.