is discipline child abuse?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 27 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

DarkElectric	27 Jul 2002
Wow! Someone who isn't afraid to allude to the concept of spanking. In the state I live in, a single mother I know was subjected to a DSS (Dept of Social Services) audit because she placed her outrageously misbehaving child in a "Time Out" in his room. The kid later told a teacher that his Mommy had "Isolated" him. DSSwas immediately notified by the school. The social worker visited, and told my friend that if she did this again, her case would be subject to serious review, and he child might subsequently be placed in a foster home. WHAT ARE PARENTS SUPPOSED TO DO? They are not being ALLOWED to do their job of disciplining children for fear that the kids will be taken away. Spanking is now 'Child Abuse", even if it's a smack on the bum. Pull the kid's pants down and do it and it's "Cruelty and Humiliation". So little Becca can go to kindergarten and punch and bite other kids, and when she gets sent home you're supposed to just tell her " No no, it's WRONG to hurt other children" and expect this kid won't do it again the very next day, because there was NO effective behaviour correction. I am not advocating child abuse in any form. but there is a big difference between child abuse and discipline. Children cannot think that they can behave any way they want to without consequences. But this is precisely what is happening. I venture that the rampant lack of discipline is what could be the reason we have so many self indulgent little (and not so little ) brats out there who grow up with a terminal case of "I'm Entitled". Could it be that the culture is ruled by spoiled, vain, narcissistic children who demand that everybody caters to them? And what happens later? My generation is a perfect example of what happens when we grow up and realise that there are other people in the world. My Gods, what a shocking concept. I know people who still haven't adjusted. There are a lot of really good people here in Twentysomething land, but there are an awful lot of us who believe that the world owes us a living, or conversely, lost dogs who do too many drugs then call Mom and Dad for money because they can't take care of themselves. Or are 26 years old and won't leave home at all, not buying food for the household, not paying any rent, or bills they help ring up. Flatly refusing to contribute in any useful way to the family at all, save their delightful presence. I knew somebody like that. He wouldn't even clean up his room. When his Grandpa died, he moved into HIS old room the very DAY of the wake. (Grandpa's room was clean, you see.) And, his mom got sick of "telling" him to clean his room, and gave up. I can just imagine what would have happened in MY house if I had attempted a lame stunt like that. And it would'nt have been child abuse, that's for sure. But I had two jobs and my own apartment at 21 and certainly wasn't still in the family home taxing my parent's resources anyway. It's so sad that when these kids grow up that the reality of life is really going to mess them up because they had no discipline, and don't know how to handle the challenges of life. No one is doing anybody any favours by letting them "get away with murder" when they're 8, and then having to prosecute them for it when they're 18.

RedWood	27 Jul 2002
I agree DarkElectric on your post...I give my 3 year old time outs all the time..There is not much else I can do at his age..I also give his toys timeout if he keeps misbehaving...As he ages I will be taking away special toys..Grounding etc...I do think there are ways..My opnion is..it is your childs room..as long as it does not smell up the rest of the house..and bugs and animals aren't in there..then you can have your room anyway you want it...It is there domain..I certainly would not let my child move into another oom cuz his was to dirty!..It is like people at stores..There kids act up and the parents say "I will not buy you that toy" well in teh end the kid still gets the toy...Because the parents will not enforce what they so..NO i am not talking about teenagers..that is a whole different issue..Teens do what they want whether you like it ornot...I am talking about 5-10 year olds mainly..I get dirty looks all the time for picking my son up because he is trying to run in the road..he is screaming his little head off because of it..I don't know what people think I should do..let him run in the road? ending post now..son woke up from bad dream...

Dark Inquisitor	28 Jul 2002
As far as I know, the goverment or a social service agency has yet to successfully raise a child. They are mostly the ignorant leading the ignorant in a mindless beaurocracy that , in conjunction with the equally dangerous American courts are themselves responsible for terrible situations of child abuse. That no one ever has to answer for. As for actual parenting, you'd better get your point across before the child is school age. Small children are not always capable of understanding reason & consequences. We have been lead to believe that if we just explain things to them , they will be able to understand and make decisions. Very nice, but the brain is not always developed enough to do that. Restrained demonstrations may be in order under extreme circumstances. Not in anger, not in vengeance,- just cause & effect. After age 5 or 6, physical punishment should not be necessary and will only engender resentment & rebellion. By then they should know you mean what you say, and you're not a pushover. Reward & praise are as crucial as discipline - if you neglect that side of it, you will be in for a whole other set of problems. What works with one kid may not work with another, and you have to figure out the needs of each child. Discipline is especially crucial for a single mother who has no male figure around . You can see them on tv with their out of control adolescents who figured out long ago that they didn't have to pay attention to anything the mom said. If my daughter acted up in a store, we left immediately. No discussion - no bargaining. If you want to go to the store, you behave. But discipline is not just about the kid- you as a parent have to be just as disciplined in providing supervision & appropriate correction. Not later, not when you feel like it, not someday down the road. By then it's too late. It's a lot of work. And there are a lot of parents not bothering to do it anymore- their kids are all over the place, making life hell for everybody else. (Thanks a lot.) Children need structure & they will push until they get it. If they don't get it, society pays the price later on and you as a parent will pay the price for the rest of your life. If you go overboard & become an abusive oppressor, you are just as bad or worse than those who do not bother to discipline at all. Beware of professional child experts. Quite a lot of them are full of crap, and much of their knowledge comes from books written by other experts & not from real life experience. Mothers from way back when could recall the saying, "monkey see- monkey do" in relation to the way a child thinks. Modern day translation : don't let the kids watch Jackass if you don't want to find them splattered on the driveway. You might even have to get rid of the cable tv and pay attention to them. Tarotphelia

zorya	28 Jul 2002
hitting a child in any location or matter, teaches them that hitting is o.k. and that violence is a solution to problems. never, never, NEVER hit a child!!!!! calling it spanking does NOT make it o.k.

lunalafey	28 Jul 2002
I'm with you all on this one. Everything has a consequence. with little ones I used diversion tactics. I tell my kids if you tell me 'no' i'm going to say 'no' when you ask for something. I do not care for physical punishment because of my childhood. But I do think that it does have it's place if you so choose to use it. I have walked ON that fine line on both ends. Dad was a bit overboard at times, like the slap in the face that caused me to ditch school for the day. I was in 7th grade. He was one of those, 'I'll give ya something to cry about' parents. Mom did not use physical punishment. As a parent now I try to keep things physical free, but what do you do when the pissed off aries 12 year old is going to destroy the house because he's mad at his brother? I have had to wrestle my son to the ground, and he fights it, basically hold him down until he calmed down. This takes some tactics that some would think ill of. In the end, the house is (somewhat)in tact and no one got hurt buy being an innocent bystander. And I have put a little more respect into my son. Tarotphelia wrote: You might even have to get rid of the cable tv and pay attention to them. I do not have cable satillite and I could only get 2 channels if I put an antenna up. I do not want "TV" in my house until the kids are quite older or perhaps gone(we do watch hand picked movies). I always say "Why do you think they call it programming"

wavebreaker	28 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by zorya hitting a child in any location or matter, teaches them that hitting is o.k. and that violence is a solution to problems. never, never, NEVER hit a child!!!!! calling it spanking does NOT make it o.k. I agree. I was never hit by my parents, they taught me discipline by being firm: if they said "no", they MEANT "no", and I learned that at a very young age.

Liliana	28 Jul 2002
We're at an age where I bet every single parent will have children and youth called on them at some point. My girls are rough, always have been, they are constantly falling and doing all kinds of kid stuff so they often have bruises. Im just waiting for the day that its said its from me beating them. I took them out without socks or a coat on a nice day that turned cold suddenly, and some stranger told me she was going to call Children and Youth. Ive been called on because I didnt want to let a governent person who randomly knocked on my door in because they were being bad and had just spilled ceral on the floor. I dont even remotely know how to effectively punish them, spanking once in awhile doesnt work, time out just allows them to totally destry thier room, and they still do whatever they want. And know I find I can be accused of abuse for both of these things. Its just impossible to raise a kid nowdays. :THP

Sally Gardens	28 Jul 2002
The root of the word "discipline" is the same as that of "disciple," and that's how I understand discipline: to guide and direct and teach. I agree with Zorya: Hitting a child, whatever you call it, is never O.K. I do not consider spanking to be discipline, any more than I would consider horse whipping (once considered acceptable and necessary) to be discipline. In my own experience, I found spanking did more harm than good, so I gave it up early on, and regretted that I had ever used it. Our children trust us to not hurt them, and I felt I had violated that trust. I think that spanking is the last relic of the belief that children are objects to be controlled (in a parental-ego-gratifying sense, vs. the sense described below) and subdued into unquestioning obedience, rather than fellow human beings to be guided and loved to maturity. Using physical *restraint*, when necessary, is a different matter. If a child is out of control, in danger of hurting self or others, or, say, about to run into the road, OF COURSE you're going to grab them and restrain them till they are out of harm's way. When my son was a preschooler, he used to dash out all the time. Living in a city environment, spending much time walking and waiting for buses, this obviously wasn't something I could just ignore. I jerry-rigged a small leash that I would tie around his waistline, below the soft belly and around the hips (I'm not stupid), and though I'd get some rude remarks ("he ain't a dog, lady") it served the purpose and did him no harm. I still treated him like a human being, after all... (didn't say "good boy, sit, heel" or expect him to pee on the nearest tree) :D But this way he had more freedom and scope than me grabbing his hand constantly and wasn't in danger of his arm being pulled out of his socket if he impulsively and suddenly tried to pull away. Most importantly, he didn't end up as road kill. I agree that when it gets to the point that the powers that be are questioning even time outs, then it seems like they just don't want you to discipline at all. That is ridiculous. As a parent, your job is to set limits and enforce them - nonviolently, but firmly.

truthsayer	28 Jul 2002
the thought of calling "time out" abusive blows my mind. if social workers and other interested parties want to see child abuse then they need to see some of the situations i have. what about the alcoholic mother who drives drunk w/ the kids and totals the car? what about the druggie dad who tries to find any needle to take some morphine out of his daughter's IV drip while she is still unconscious from surgery? can we say--CONTAMINATION? what about the woman or man who hits the child hard enough from a minor infraction across the room? what about potential bones breaking or brain damage from such an action? i wish to god the ppl i know who did these things had the judgement not to but they seem totally lacking. i use to be in favor of just talking to kids until i got 3 step-grandsons who do not understand "DON'T DO THAT, YOU'LL HURT YOURSELF!!" i definitely don't believe in corporal punishment but there are times you don't know what else to try! for example, the day my 2 y/o grandson tried to climb in the refrigerator and the refrigerator was leaning over but he wouldn't let go or listen. yes! i popped him on the butt to get his attention. i prefer that to the possible consequences of hurting himself or me. my step-daughter now starts counting when they act out in public. if they keep it up, she marches them to the bathroom. i think she just talks to them but the act of getting them away from the situation they are misbehaving in helps make them do better. i don't like to see children verbally abused either but there is a big difference than talking down and belittling a child and explaining in terms the child can understand why they can't do what they want. in order to become a disciplined adult, we have to follow the example of parents who know how to give the example of being disciplined and behave in public. if you act out in public don't expect your child to do any better. adults have to pay the consequences if they misbehave. children need to learn early in a structured way, that everyone must show appropriate behavior in order for society to function in an orderly safe fashion. i've seen far too many kids who've grown up in loving but undiscipined homes end up doing horrible things as adults to themselves or others. for example, the 4 teenage girls who robbed stores at gun point b/c they were bored. their parents had money. they had good loving homes but somehow they hadn't learned compassion for others or judgement about their behaviors. i don't know what the answer is but children have to learn to be disciplined to function in society--hold a job, drive responsibly, handle money responsibly, etc. if trying to teach discipline in a kind but firm way is child abuse, what for heaven's sake is good parenting?

Umbrae	28 Jul 2002
My opinion. There is a point where a spank becomes strike and therefore abusive. There is a point where explaining a child’s errors is no longer conversant, and becomes abusive. There is a time where a time out can become abusive. Mind you, I am pro-discipline (I even approve of some corporal punishment). However, there is a line that must never be crossed. PS: I decided many years ago to have no children. This gene-pool ends with me. My sister made the same decision.

DarkElectric	28 Jul 2002
It seems to me that even when we teach kids that hitting is wrong, the message is completely overruled by what they see on TV, in the movies, even when they look out the window and see people outside (adult neighbors) behaving badly. I live in the city, but I've seen this stuff in my suburban hometown too. Children are not little adults, yet we are supposed to reason with them on behavioural issues. Even as I type this, there is a horrible fight going on in a building across the street. People are yelling, screaming, and breaking things. The Police will be here real soon. It is two women. Their kids are seeing this. I know, because I know who these people are. It's not the first time this has happened, either. We can't "Time Out", or admonish, or tell our kids that hitting is wrong if we aren't the kind of examples of the positive behaviours we are trying to reinforce. And how do we override the influence of cultural "Role Models" who are bullies, and thugs? How can we make an affectionate and gentle Dad cooler than Mike Tyson? Poor Dad doesn't have that kind of hype. It's really great that Sesame Street teaches us to "Name That Feeling", but who teaches us how to deal with that feeling, or the consequences of powerful emotions overrunning rationale? How do we teach our children self control in an instant gratification oriented society? I heard a news item on NPR a few weeks ago. It was about children and marketing. The gist of it was this...The Marketing Reasearch people interviewed 50 children and their parents. The study was on the frequency of repeated requests for a toy. The kids were asked "How many times do you have to bug your parents for this toy until you get it?" (It was, of course a GIVEN that they'd get it...) Some kids only had to request it 10 times. Others lost count. But the end result was that ALL 50 children got the toy. And they explained to the researchers that they realised if they wore their parents down enough, they got it just to shut them up. So they refused to lay off until they got what they wanted. One little boy said he waited until his mom had had a hard day at work and was really tired. When he bugged her then, he got it faster. How do we teach our kids to respect other people, especially US? It chilled my heart to hear this little boy. Instead of feeling bad his mommy was tired and not feeling well he coldly manipulated the situation to his advantage as an opportunity for gain, instead of being an extra good boy because he loved his mommy and felt bad she'd had a hard day. How do we teach kindness in a culture that views it that as weakness? If we discipline our children kindly, are we percieved as weaklings and pushovers by them? And how do we effectively discipline children when they see so called sports idols or other cultural icons getting away with the very things we tell them is wrong? My Gramma did spank me a couple of times when I was little. I never thought that justified hitting anyone. I thought I had been a bad girl, and didn't do it again. She didn't beat me, she swatted me on the bum. No belt, no bat, a swat on the bum. And only if I seriously misbehaved in a way that endangered myself, or was disrespectful of others. To this day I believe that hitting people is wrong. I got spanked, and I don't hit anyone. Ever. People also seem to think the word "control" is an ugly concept. It can be, when control becomes domination. But why shouldn't children be controlled until they learn SELF control, which is essential? And how is control defined here anyway? Would I let a 4 year old run into the street? No. That's a form of control. Would I let a 7 year old wear makeup to school? No. That's control too. I'd let her mess around at home with it playing dress up with her friends, but makeup is not appropriate for second grade. And if that's control, so be it. How else will these kids learn self control if we don't teach it to them? How will they learn the concept of appropriate and inappropriate behaviour? What do we do? One of my girlfriends doesn't ever hit her kids. But she yells and screams at them becuse they refuse to behave, and it's all she can do. I find it odd that DSS would be there in 10 seconds flat if she shook the kid in the grocery store, but she can scream and yell all she likes. And it doesn't work either. Nothing does. I had an experience where I was babysitting for her older boy. (11) He began hitting me. I grabbed his arm, and restrained him. He didn't like it, and wrenched around, screaming "OW,OW,OW!" I knew I wasn't hurting this kid. He had been hurting ME and wouldn't cut it out when I told him to stop so I took action. I let him go, and he ran off to sulk in his room. When my friend got home, I explained what had happened. She went white as a ghost and said" Oh my God, you know he really isn't used to that sort of thing, don't ever do that again or DSS will be kicking the door down". And I said "He was hitting me and wouldn't stop. What was I supposed to do?" and she said "I don't know". No joke. And she didn't even deal with the fact that her kid was assaulting the babysitter, who was also her friend. The next day this kid stole quarters out of my friend's laundry jar. When she discovered they were missing, he told her I had taken them. Revenge for discipline. This is where people get the idea that they can do whatever they want to anyone they want, and if that person fights back, they'll get them for it. We are becoming a nation of bullies. Sure, hitting is wrong. But so is intimidation and terrorizing other people. And these are kids who were never spanked, ever. So if spanking didn't make them think that hitting is ok, where DID they get the idea? No matter what we try to teach them? If we are not allowed to discipline children, where will it stop? What do we do?

Laurel	28 Jul 2002
This is a really interesting thread and I think touches on the real challenge facing our society. The traditional roles of parent & child are dramatically changing, for good and ill. Kids are growing up fast, too fast, and being brought up with an inescapable media message that parents are stupid or worse dangerous. Truly physically abusive parents tend to have their kids so terrified and broken, emotionally, that they don't seek help. Neglectful parents who give their kids all the food, money, and TV time they want never get a visit from DSHS and on the surface appear to be caring and loving parents even if the parental-child relationship is devoid of love and respect. Meanwhile, clever and mischevious kids of "good enough" and even "great" parents are learning that they can get away with just about anything and treat any kind of discipline as abuse. The best you can do is a parent is be consistent and not let the State or anyone bully you from taking an appropriate but loving stand to kids behavior. Laurel

Dark Inquisitor	28 Jul 2002
Children are natural manipulators - to expect otherwise is foolish. My daughter knew that the more she whined, the less likely it was that she was going to get what she wanted. It's easier for parents to give in in the moment, but that is a policy that only leads to repetition of the behavior. Kids will do what works for them. To expect them to be mature , angelic geniuses is unrealistic. Many parents are in denial of the nature of their own children, and will make any excuse for them . I notice this with the parents of criminals quite a bit. They can do no wrong. Some people just can't separate the notion of discipline from abuse. My sister in law was outraged that we used the high chair safety belt provided by the manufacturer to prevent kids from falling or sliding out of the chair. She felt this was "tying the kids to a chair". I don't think she used the seat belts in the car either. Oftentimes parents don't realize & connect that they are creating their own monster. The same sister in law never bothered to teach her kids table manners. After a particularly messy spaghetti dinner, they went & wiped their hands on the clean white blouse she was wearing. I think things will get worse - when the lessons of the past are forgotten or denied, they must be learned all over again . I am not expecting a mass outbreak of common sense anytime soon. American society just ping pongs between extremes, and never seems to find the middle road. Tarotphelia

jade	28 Jul 2002
hey, being a parent is a full time job. unfortunately so many people feel that it's a 5pm - 8am job. they send their kids to daycare, to be raised by strangers, they send their kids to school to be around other kids who have issues of their own..............being raised, in essence by teachers and their peers. personally, i feel that socialization is important. no question. but negative socialization isn't something that my kids need. they get that with the kids across the street afterall. i teach my children that you either have children and they are your 24/7 job OR you get a career outside the home. not many people would be a full time doctor and a full time gas attendent after all. so why do people think that being a parent.....a little bit here and there is okay? i'm not against women or men working, but i feel that one parent needs to be home with the kids, whether it's the dad or mom, but someone needs to be with them, guiding and assisting them with their challenges. i homeschool my kids and they have lots of friends. i rarely (maybe 10 times in all, in 15 years of parenting 3 kids) spank my kids...........although i have done it. instead i use communication and if they don't want to talk they go to their room for a few minutes (always under 5 minutes) and then i go to the door, knock and ask if i can come in to talk. if they say no again, i go away for another 3-5 minutes. i come back and knock again. this continues until they want to talk and then we discuss (no yelling allowed) what it is that they want and what it is that i want........and decide how to achieve those goals. now my 3 year old is a handful.............such a huge handful. i've learned that she needs different forms of discipline than her brother and sister did. (8 and 15). she tells me what she wants and if it's not unreasonable i allow her to do it. i choose my wars carefully cause that's what they turn into most times. she doesn't rule the house, but the same parenting skills don't work on her that worked with her siblings. when it's bad..............she goes to her room and i have to wait for her to come out. she doesn't like me coming to her room so i don't. i wait, on the couch patiently for her to emerge from her room and if she's yelling i tell her that i don't respond to yelling and when she's calmer,....we can talk about what she wants. this can continue for an hour or more.........but eventually she comes out and says she's sorry for being so out of control and can she have a kiss and a hug......i give them to her, joyfully :D and then we talk about her behaviour and how she could better deal with her feelings in the future. if she has destroyed her room during this time.....we BOTH go in a clean up the mess together. her knowing that i support her, is, IMO very important. this doesn't stop her behaviour right then and there, but her 'freak out times' are getting less and less. parenting isn't a quick fix process of perfect kids.............it's a lifetime of being there, loving them...regardless of their behaviour. showing them with our actions that we are always there for them gives them a solid foundation to feel safe and secure. i think it's important for us all to remember that, as umbrae said, there is a fine line between good parenting, acceptable parenting and abuse. i'm sure that others can stand outside my house and say that i'm a terrible parent, when my little DD is freaking out, but if they were inside, in my shoes, i think that they would feel differently. in light, jade

Maan	28 Jul 2002
Hi Tarophelia your remark about parents creating litlle monsters makes alot of sense to me As i work with little children i hear arround me alot of comments from parents. They just can't figure out why there children are so wild. And fast label them ADHD You have to set boundaries for your kids without them they keep testing you. And boundaries make the world feel safer for children they know where thinks and and how far they can go. So they don't have to test it over and over agian. Wich gives them more time to develop them selfs What i also noticed is that children that are neglected show the same kind of behavior as the children that are spoiled. In away its the same. You give the messages to childrene" he i don't give enought about you to ste boundaries. A little exagerated i know but just to make my point :)

DarkElectric	28 Jul 2002
Oh My! A mass outbreak of common sense is just what we need, although I'm inclined to agree that we won't see it anytime soon. I posted a new thread concerning new ideas and social change. Check it out and voice your opinion!

jade	28 Jul 2002
hey, DE, don't get ahead of yourself here, we aren't done discussing this one yet......................you make it sound like it's done, finished, heehee *teasing* heehee there are soooo many more members that are gonna have great opinions on this. :D:D:D in light, jade ps although that new thread is a good one too FOLKS we have a new member with some great thread ideas!!! so get ready to THINK!

RedWood	28 Jul 2002
I agree with Umbrae's post...Except i have continued my gene pool lol...Leashes are awesome.. Jade--I totally get you with the 3 year old...My son plays by different rules then others..I to choose my wars very carefully..Maybe sometimes I am to lax and sometimes i am to harsh,...All I do is relize my mistake and not make it again..I have also learned from the mistakes my mom made..it is very hard to raise my child..People think I over exaggerate when i talk about him..I don't...NO one will watch him either LOL..that is ok with me..I love the little guy..He has a memory like an elephant..what is it with people who thing kids are stupid too? i think that is a problem..kids are kids..they are not dumb..you treat them with respect not treat them like they are stupid..Kids have a sense of humor like everyone else..My son does..it amazes me the stuff he pulls cuz he knows it is funny..It si one extreme to the other..either you treat your kid like they are dumb or treat them like they are adults..there needs to be a balance...It is hard...I know.. I was spanked as a kid..nothing awful..to be honest i deserved it...My sister when she was little kept pooping on the porch..My mom did everything to try and stop it..one day ..she spanked her bottom..she never did it again..sometimes it is warranted..I have not grown up hitting..or thinking hitting is ok...I have spanked my son once ..he kept trying to turn on the hot water in the bathtub, nothing worked to stop it..I think that the choice is he is going to be burned or I spank him....I did..and he has not done it since..now if i spanked him over hitting me...well that is just doing it right back and he will learn nothing...it is always a fine line...

amyel	28 Jul 2002
I am a human. I am also a step-mother, so my "rights" towards disciplining my step-kids is even less then it is for the bio-parents. As a human, I sometimes "react" instead of think through first. Unfortuantely, hubs - the kids' bio-dad - is inconsistent in his handling of the kids. He will let them get away with lounging over the dinner table, chewing with their mouths open, not using a napkin, etc...and while am certain I would not impress Miss Manners, I at least understand how to use a fork. So, I speak up. And am labled "mean" because of it. It is getting worse as they get older. I told them once I was going to send them to manners school and received such a nasty level of backtalk from the 12 y.o. that I "threatened" to spank her. It was the first time I have ever mentioned the s word in their presence. She didn't know I *couldn't* go through with it. This is one small example of my life with step-kids. I was the only step-kid in my family (my mom & dad had just me, my mom remarried and had 2 more kids, and my dad remarried but had no more kids), so believe me, I *do* understand the difficulties these kids face. I've lived it. I try to remember that part of growing up is breaking away and testing boundaries. It doesn't make it any easier for the adults in their lives. As I said, I am a human. I make mistakes. I allow my step-kids to make mistakes. But I see no excuse for blantant bad behaviour and disrespect towards others. And how is someone like me suppose to handle that? I've yelled. I've spoke quietly to them. I *can't* physically discipline them. But nothing works. The *only* time these two kids have ever remembered a lesson is when they have been spanked by their father. I don't know if their mother spanks them. I suspect she has - the woman has punched her own mother, for god's sake (not in front of the kids, but she was quite happy to *share* this tidbit with them). Anyway, society *is* in a real mess. Children need discipline to feel safe. This has been demonstrated time & again. Discipline, in this example, does not necessarily mean spanking, time outs, yelling, restraining, or any of the other things mentioned. BUT - it doesn't exclude these forms either. I do not think society should be making "universal" laws about discipline (apart from abuse, of course), because, as we have shown here, different children respond to different methods, and will respond to different methods as they grow and mature. Now, will someone please point me to the magic pill that makes it easier to handle 12 & 10 y.o. willfull backtalking kids? Thanks.

cricket	28 Jul 2002
Magic pill for older children? NyQuil liquid gel caps... knock them right out, and then it's easy as pie. :D (just kidding... sheesh)) I find that I'm not like a lot of you. I DO believe in spanking. At the same time, I realize there is a big difference between a swat or two and beating a child until their skin is red and they end up with deep bruising. The only times my children get spanked are when they refuse to show respect, or when they throw kicking screaming hissy fits. Being toddlers, they do get a bigger break than they will as the get older. They're not expected to know everything, or to do everything the first time they're told, or even to eat all their vegetables. They simply don't have an attention span long enough to keep things in mind long enough to get everything done. They get distracted from doing things they're asked. That's fine. When they deliberately refuse to do something asked of them after they've been asked (not TOLD, ASKED) a few times, I will tell them to do whatever it is. If they still refuse, they're sent to time out. We have a chair in the living/play room for each of them. They are still there with the rest of us, able to watch us play, or read, or whatever we were doing, but aren't allowed to participate for a short period of time. It's usually only a minute or two. If they have to go back to time out, they have to stay longer. On occasion we all lose our tempers and yell and scream at each other. The kids included. *L* But that's something they need to learn, too. They know that in some cases it's all right to yell and scream and carry on - just like they already know it's not all right to hit people when they get mad. They know that if they get mad enough to get violent it's better to beat up on something soft, like the couch cushions, then leave the room until they cool off. That's really a lot for them to know this early (2 and 3) so maybe... just maybe... I've been doing something right.

amyel	28 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by cricket Magic pill for older children? NyQuil liquid gel caps... knock them right out, and then it's easy as pie. :D (just kidding... sheesh)) Thanks for tip...is that for me or the kids??? LOL Quote: Originally posted by cricket I find that I'm not like a lot of you. I DO believe in spanking. At the same time, I realize there is a big difference between a swat or two and beating a child until their skin is red and they end up with deep bruising. The only times my children get spanked are when they refuse to show respect, or when they throw kicking screaming hissy fits. Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't belive spanking is wrong, but as a step-parent, I am on even shakier ground then bio-parents. Plus, their mom already feels threatened by me. If I were to spank them, and she found out, she'd go out of her way to make my life hell. I'm not afraid of her - but I sure don't need that kind of aggrevation.

jade	28 Jul 2002
it's funny reading these posts cause i'm thinking, wow if anyone ever hit my kid......there'd be hell to pay! my hubby, their bio-dad, step-mom, no one is allowed to hit my kids. IF and i mean IF a spanking is given, then it must be me. cause i know how gently i do it and i'm prepared to take responsibility for my actions......but i would never tolerate anyone else doing it. but, i truly believe that there are way more effective ways of dealing with behaviour than spanking/hitting. we just need to be willing to find the way to reach our kids...........and that takes time, energy and a heck of a lot of patience. i often take time outs for myself.............lock myself in my room and cool off when they are getting really bad. take some nice deep breaths.......force myself to start laughing..............and then go back out with a smile. it really helps me alot. in light, jade ps and IF a spanking happens - it's for stuff that's totally unsafe and life threatening. like when i couldn't get my DD (who's 15 now) to stop sticking her fork in a light socket! she never did it again after she was spanked. if you reserve spanking for those types of situations,......it makes an impression and they do remember/learn from it. but if it's used all the time for whatever......then they don't learn anything positive from it.......they just learn that whoever has the power.....hits.......and whoever doesn't have the power.....get's hit.

Sorceress_Jade	28 Jul 2002
My littls sisters baby sitter, who she'd been going to for 8 years, was just shut down for putting a 2 year old in time out. SHUT DOWN! they said a two year old was too young to understand time out. That's bull ****. I have no power in this but i'm urging my parents to take action. It's rediculous. They didn't even do enough investigation to find out that this child was hurting the other children, biting them and kicking them, to get the time outs. His mother called cps (child protective services) and she's done it to TWO other daycares. I can't believe they don't take a look at the mother and child instead of closing down all the daycares. I'm incredibly dissapointed in the judgement of this service and think they need their own audit done. Their agenda is probably quota instead of true concern for children.

Sally Gardens	28 Jul 2002
I'm not sure if this is a response/reaction to my post, in particular, but I'll answer, anyway... Quote: Originally posted by DarkElectric It seems to me that even when we teach kids that hitting is wrong, the message is completely overruled by what they see on TV, in the movies, even when they look out the window and see people outside (adult neighbors) behaving badly. I live in the city, but I've seen this stuff in my suburban hometown too. Exactly my point: Discipline primarily consists in "discipling." Acting as a role model. Teaching, throuigh patient, ongoing repetition. Yes, "it takes a village to raise a child" and the problem is larger than the individual family, but we can at least begin at home to model the values we hold dear. Our children should see, by our response and attitude and the way we live our own lives, that we consider those examples of violent behavior to be WRONG. Quote: Children are not little adults, yet we are supposed to reason with them on behavioural issues. Not necessarily "reason" with them, unless of course they've reached the age of reason (ca. 7 or 8 ). Appropriate discipline considers a child's age and developmental stage, all that good stuff. (Actually, it's the parents that lose their tempers with their children that, in my observation, have tended to be most unreasonable in their expectations, regarding their children as "little adults." They think a child is being "rebellious" or some other thing when they're just being a normal, inquisitive or envelope-pushing pre-schooler, or they think their kids are supposed to have the same level of self-control and quiet behavior as an adult, and get upset when their kids act like kids.) Quote: And they explained to the researchers that they realised if they wore their parents down enough, they got it just to shut them up. So they refused to lay off until they got what they wanted. Heh. Reminds me of the "battles" I used to have when my son was about five or so. He'd whine and moan for me to buy him a candy bar or some other impulse item at the checkout in the grocery store, which just ensured that there was NO WAY that I would buy him said impulse item, end of story. His response was predictable: He'd whine and moan twice as insistently. Now, here's the critical part, which I think is illustrated by that study you cited: YOU CAN'T GET EMBARRASSED, AND YOU CAN'T GIVE IN. Some people are going to look at you like you're the worst mom or dad on the face of the Earth. Why? Because they're more concerned with being bothered by your kid's whining and moaning than they are about you doing the right thing for your child so he grows up learning that bad manners will not avail him. So what did I do to stop his tantrum? Ignored it, and made it clear that it wasn't going to get him what he wanted, so he might as well save his breath and energy for better things. Messy, annoying, embarrassing - yes. But the lesson gets taught, and learned, nobody gets swatted, and the child adds another notch of maturity to his or her growth: If I want something, I have to do it in a respectful way, and if the answer's "no," then the answer is "no." And the parents who've been there and know what you're doing will understand, and maybe give you a little smile of empathy. Quote: One little boy said he waited until his mom had had a hard day at work and was really tired. When he bugged her then, he got it faster. How do we teach our kids to respect other people, especially US? It chilled my heart to hear this little boy. Instead of feeling bad his mommy was tired and not feeling well he coldly manipulated the situation to his advantage as an opportunity for gain, instead of being an extra good boy because he loved his mommy and felt bad she'd had a hard day. No easy answer, here. How do we cultivate empathy? It's an incremental process, lived day by day. It starts with setting those "appropriate boundaries" and enforcing them. It means that we relate to our children so they see, as much as they are capable of seeing at a given age, that we are HUMAN, too, just like they are. We get tired. We are not unlimited. We sometimes have to say "no," not only for their sakes, but for our own: We cannot do and give and be everything they can ever ask for, 24/7. Sometimes Mom or Dad needs to just rest tonight. And somehow, we strive to make the love between parent and child grow from the primal attachment for survival to one of genuinely caring for and looking out for one another, developing a bond of empathy so that, someday, when the child is grown, the relationship (hopefully, if successful) shifts to one of equals. Quote: We are becoming a nation of bullies. Sure, hitting is wrong. But so is intimidation and terrorizing other people. And these are kids who were never spanked, ever. So if spanking didn't make them think that hitting is ok, where DID they get the idea? No matter what we try to teach them? If we are not allowed to discipline children, where will it stop? What do we do? First, I don't think anyone claimed that spanking is the only way children will get the idea to hit someone, still less the message that it's O.K. to hit someone. The urge to lash out physically is something that can be triggered within us all, a part of being human. By showing restraint ourselves, we are modeling that this is an urge to restrain, not to rationalize or indulge or consider O.K. Second, when you say "If we are not allowed to discipline children..." I hope that you are not equating "discipline children" with "spanking." I said I consider spanking to be an inappropriate form of "discipline." I made it very clear that I do not oppose any and all attempts to discipline a child. As I said in my first post: "As a parent, your job is to set limits and enforce them - nonviolently, but firmly." Third, I also emphasized that necessary and minimal physical restraint is a very different thing from the use of spanking as a means of "teaching" ("discipling"). And I did agree with you that the social work/child services crowd is getting extreme when it seems you basically can't do ANYTHING but watch a child run amok. Unfortunately, the current situation came about because for so long flat-out abuse of children was accepted and approved. If you were an adult, you could do whatever you wanted to a child in the name of "discipline." I'm not sorry to see those days go away forever, but we do need to find a reasonable balance.

DarkElectric	28 Jul 2002
Heavens, no. Spanking is certainly not the ONLY form of discipline. Everybody's opinion differs on spanking. What concerns me is that ALL forms of discipline are now becoming suspect. Cruelty is not discipline. There is no excuse for that. There is no generic method to childrearing. Every child is different. The horrible truth is, child abuse still goes on. All of these measures put in place by the social service bureaus fail to stop the hard core abusers. The newspapers are loaded with horror stories of children murdered, beaten to death by violent adults. In many cases, there had been service intervention, only to have the child REPLACED into the violent environment. This is terrible. Good parents are terrified to discipline in what they see as appropriate ways, time outs or no TV tonight or whatever, and the violent, murdering monsters are killing children. How many little girls have been abducted and killed recently? How many poor innocent children are truly being harmed because abuse OF ANY KIND thrives on the culture of silence? This is hideous. Are the agencies flurrying around and making a big fuss to obfuscate the fact that in spite of all the regulations the very children who need protection the most aren't getting it? Good grief.

lunalafey	28 Jul 2002
tarotphelia: Children are natural manipulators The first piece of advise that my mother gave me on parenting was "children are master manipulators , you have to be creative and out smart them" maan: As i work with little children i hear arround me alot of comments from parents. They just can't figure out why there children are so wild. And fast label them ADHD combine the lack of dicipline and a diet full of sugar and junk food??? so many "ADHD children" would be normal if thier diet was changed. I believe that some ADHD kids are a product of drugs and alcohol during pregnancy, ya think this makes for a good parent child combo? But what do we do as a society?? ******plane flys over head******thousands of papers fall from the sky****** A pre-school program in my area handed out this: Effective and loving parenting tips Get their attention before giving directions, get your childs attention by touching between the shoulder and elbow, thier eyes will automatically turn to you. Quiet and near direction, reminders, requests, etc. are always better understood when delivers while standing near the child, or better yet getting down to thier eye level, and using a quieter tone of voice. 1 or 2 steps at a time Give directions in small steps, 1 or 2 at a time. Instead of 'go clean up your room' tell your child 'put the cars into the car box and the books back onto the shelves.' Give notice Tell your child what is going to happen, especially if there will be a change in routine so they can prepare for the change. Spend a moment going over what is expected of the child during this new activity Keep it positive Tell your child what you want them to do, the behavior you want to see, instead of making a 'don't' statement. Instead of saying 'don't act up in the store' you might say 'I know you are big enough now to know how to be quiet and stay with me while we are in the store' Repeat after meOn the way, tell your child where you are going and ask them to tell you what is acceptable behavior 'we are gong to grandma's, what voice do we use at grandma's house?' Consequence consequences should be related to the child's behavior, respectful and reasonable to both parent and child. Clean slate after a consequence, give your child a chance to start over, again and again and again. Children learn through repetition, not through harshness of our tone of voice or by 'suffering' a punishment. Very good tips; but if the parents don't/won't use them.......looks like it's not the childern we have to focus on it's the parents

divinerguy	28 Jul 2002
In my career as lawyer, I've had two cases involving false accusations of child sexual abuse, and a false allegation of sexual harassment on a teen. I know the cases were legitimate, because one case was proven so by DNA, one by a jury, and the third because of multiple alibi witnesses. The focus of government investigating agencies is the response to presumed cases of abuse. Cynicism is a job requirement. The ruination of innocent reputations is a fact of life. This is done because there is a need to protect children from those who would do them harm. Do they prevent child abuse? Absolutely. Do they make mistakes? Yes. Is it unfair? Yes. What can you do? As a a society, you determine what is more important in the short and long term. You must perform a balancing act of competing interests. Those interests are the right of the child to be free of possible abuse, versus the right of the accused to be accorded their parental rights. Its a rotten system, but for the life of me, I don't know of a better one.

DarkElectric	28 Jul 2002
Divinerguy, as an attorney, please tell me, why do so many guilty ones get off? I'm so glad the innocent ones can be exhonorated, but why do so many truly guilty barsteads get off, or don't get prosecuted at all until some poor child is dead? Why does this happen?

Kazz	29 Jul 2002
Firstly i am a mum or two girls one 4 and the other just turned 1 The 4 year old has alot of SPIRIT and is very testing at times, but when i had the girls they didn't come with INSTRUCTIONS on how they work so it definately comes down to whatever works for you and always let them know how much they are loved and needed. I agree with alot of you on the spanking issue, but i must say i have had to resort to the "spanking" on occasions when I think it was neccesary, and I think it comes back to the way we were raised (good or bad) and we are thinking what worked for us and what didn't. I certainly got a spanking from my parents, but i know that i deserved it ,( and i don't think i have grown up that bad LOL:) ) I have to say that parenting is one of the hardest jobs that i have ever had, and i am glad that i didn't return to the workforce after having my girls as i agree that one parent should be at home with them until they are full time at school at least. I think we have more influence on children when they are at an early age cause they simply NEED us and totally rely on us. One simple thing i do with my girls is i get down to their level so they can understand me better than if i told them in an adult way, for example, when the 4 year old (Jordan) say's NO when she is told to eat her vegetables , i simply say "I don't like them either they can be yukky but i found out that they make you better when you get sick and they make you feel big and strong, and give you more energy so you can play more (I try and make a little story effect out of it) so i am going to eat mine all up" and usually she says Ok me too, but not all the time (of course) but in that similar way i try and relate like that to her so she will understand. I am firm with them but we get passed it fairly quickly. i know that when you repeat things over & over you think "is it sinking in" and yes it is as out of the blue they say or do something that leaves you gasping and saying "they WERE listening!!" Cheers Kazz :TQC

divinerguy	29 Jul 2002
The crazy results are invariably the result of people not believing children. In both cases, guilty and falsely accused, every single case I've worked has involved the issue of whether people listen to what the victim has said. Mothers, while well meaning, will typically influence a child's testimony. Either the bad guy is somehow excluded from the pool of suspects, or Mom presumes the good guy did it when the child says otherwise. Bottom line - we must believe what the children say, and stop filtering it through our own prejudices.

jade	29 Jul 2002
moderator note: please stay on topic. if you would like to start another thread, please feel free to do so. in light, one of the moderator chicks jade :D

Alex	29 Jul 2002
As a witness and victim of my own childhood abuse, I can say with certain confidence that spanking can be pretty harmless as compared with other forms of torture. My parents would hit me every once in a while and I didn't mind that much. So did my grandparents on occasion and I don't have hard feelings about it. Verbal abuse, humiliation and game-playing were much more humiliating and traumatic to me than an eventual whip. I spent years in psychoterapy to have some of my self-esteem recovered and I don't recall many occasions on which I happened to mention spanking as a very painful memory. Of course I was never violently spanked to the point I was left with bruises etc. I'm talking about a whip or so. I think parents have to pay A LOT OF MORE of attention to WHAT they say, and HOW they say it. If spanking is an efficient way to control a young child at a moment, it will be way less harmfull than subjecting the little one to sitting alone in a room for 1/2 an hour or preventing her from watching the TV for a week, while you remind her over and over, how bad of a kid she is. Blessings

jade	29 Jul 2002
i think that alex brings up an extremely important aspect.............. if the choice is to spank or to berate...........belittle............remove their self-esteem.........then yes, please spank. many parents don't spank their kids but i hear them yelling at them, calling them names, telling them they hate them etc. and i agree, that is ALOT more damaging that a slap on the butt. beatings aren't spankings. i still support calm rational communication though..............:D:D:D:D in light, jade

destinyawaitsme	29 Jul 2002
My opinion. Kids are 50% nature and 50% nurture. Sure they are born a certain way, but the way they are shaped throughout their young years determines the person they will be. Just like they have to learn to speak, read, and write, they have to learn their boundaries. That's where discipline comes in. I wish I could find my psych notes. (not that I'm a professional or anything) But we talked about conditioning. Basically: teaching mice tricks in a lab. They did experiements where mice were punished (actions to get you to stop a certain behavior) and reinforced (actions to get you to increase a certain behavior). When push came to shove, it turns out that the researchers found out that punishment didn't work. It caused rebellion and resentment (granted I think they did this on other animals too. I know it's hard to think of a rebelling and resentful mouse.). The problem with punishment is you are focusing on the negative. The child really doesn't know what to do; they just know what not to do. So I'm not saying punishment is wrong. I'm saying the way some people do it is wrong. I've worked in retail since I was 16 and I've seen so many instances of child abuse in a store I want to cry for these children. I've seen a woman grab a men's belt off a rack to whip her son. and when he ran she chased him around the store, flailing the belt around and screaming. I'm sorry but what human in their right mind would want to turn around and walk towards someone who was going to beat them. Also: Attention shoppers: please do not use store merchandise to beat your children. I jsut wish adults could be more adult about the situation. To engage in a shouting match with a 5 year old in a grocery store isn't teaching them any values at all. It's showing your children just how childish you can be. I agree with Umbrae too. I think if punishment is done right, it does work. Discipline isn't fixed with a quick swat. I think it takes a lot of attention and patience. Parenting is a lifelong 24/7 commitment.

Kath	30 Jul 2002
If you let your kids get away with being brats, they will. I have a nephew and a godson, both the same age (5). My godson is raised by his mother (father is a loser, my friend dumped him). She works full time. My nephew is raised by both parents, his mother is a stay at home mum. These kids are like chalk and cheese. My godson is well behaved, well mannered, and listens to his mother. If she asks him to do something, or stop doing it, he listens. My nephew ignores his mother. If he is doing something, she'll tell him to stop, but won't use any reinforcing techniques. She'll stay where she is, on a chair or where ever, and he knows that if he doesn't obey, she won't do anything. The toy won't be confiscated, he won't be punished for misbehaving, so he ignores her. This does not happen with my godson because he knows, through experience, that if he doesn't listen to mum, he will be punished for it. My friend makes sure that her son doesn't drink sugary drinks or eats too much junk food because it makes him hyperactive, he has an allergy to orange juice too. My nephew doesn't have the same dietary supervision, and my sister in law laments that he is unruley, won't sleep and misbehaves. Children will push the boundaries as far as you let them. People don't seem to realise that kids don't raise themselves and if you don't lay the disciplinary ground rules when they are young, it will be impossible when they are older. I was spanked as a kid. My parents both worked full time from the time I was 5 yrs old. I was a latch key kid. I think that I have grown up to be a well adjusted human being. I have never been in trouble with the law, I have a job, I finished school. What did my parents do right in raising me and my brother that so many people cannot do these days? I wish I knew, because when I have kids, I want to raise them as effectively as my parents raised me. cheers Kath

Kazz	30 Jul 2002
Quote: [i] if you don't lay the disciplinary ground rules when they are young, it will be impossible when they are older. [/b] My thoughts exactly!! Like i said before they don't come with an instruction booklet, so therefore we have make and mould these kids into people that we can be proud of. Cheers Kazz :TQC

Kiama	30 Jul 2002
I haven't read he whole of this thread yet, cuz otherwie I wil forget what I have to sa, o fiorgive me if I repeat what has already been said. Firstly, I was 'spanked' as a child. I turned out okay. I'm not saying that I tunred out okay cuz of the spanking, nor that spanking should definitely be the way to gom, but I thnk to say that spanking a child is wrong cuz it teaches them that hitting is right is not always a plausible claim. I know of many people my age who were spanked by their parents, and who have grown up with good morals, and a repect for authprity and their elder.s My parents spanked me, They grounded me for a month once. My Mum used to have a floppy slipper which she would discpiline me with if I had been really bad... I remember her keeping it on the dinner table, and it made me eat all my food! I was very scared of that slipper, but I did what I was told, and I learned what was right and wrog. My little sisters do not get disciplined at all. They never get grounded (Or if they do Mm bcks out ofit within ten minutes when a friend calls round to play!). She never smacks them, she never does anything. These two kids are horrile sometimes. I have had them jumping on me and literally beating me up, and nohing is done. One seems to think that the world owes her a lving, an the othr is asroppy brt who suks and stamps whenshe doesn't get her own way. Sh is 11. In my Ethics class, this issue came up, and it was eventually concluded thatit isn't the smackng that is the focal point... It is WHEN the smackig takes place after the nuaghtiness.... For instance.. If a Mother strikes her child as soon as it has done the bad thing, with no thought, but jut in anger, that could be quire a bad way of punsihing thechild. It will probably teach the child that anger shoul be let out by violence. However if one waits until later onto give the punishent, and one TELLS the child WHY they are bing punished, and hy their deed eas bad, that could be construed as agood ayt of enforcing discipline: That way, the child is directly told that such behaviour is not acceptable, and that the result will be punishment. It is very difficult though to keep your col when your 4 year old is runninhg aound the supermarket terrorising te rest of the cstomers with a water-gun. In this situation, smacking may be misconstrued as child abuse by quite a few of the customers, but I do not think they have a right to juge at all. ANd I find it a ludicrous claim that 'iloating' a child is child abuse. They used to do this as a punisment in scool hen I was litle. If you tlked in class, you ere made to 'stand in the corner ad think about what you'd done'. The embarrassment and bordeom certainly acted as a deterrant! And I cannot see how this i child abuse at all. If someody does smack their child however, then the smack should be the right hardness. It shouldnot be too hard in comparision wit the child's weught, heght, age, etc... Using a fist on the head of a two year old is just downright stupid for instance, whilst tapping the fingers of a 14 year old is just not gonna work effectively. So, that's my thought sonthis. When I have kids, I do not know what I will do. Hopefully, words will work fr hem, and my sudies in Psycholgy have really helped me se here many parents 'go wrong' in using words. Howevr, I do not think I will averse to the odd smack if the child isreally playing up. Kiama PS- MY little sister (11yrs) is continually saying that if Mum and Dad hit her ever, she will go to the police and have them doine for child abuse. Is this realy what the Social Services want to advocate?

jade	30 Jul 2002
sidenote: you can always tell when kiama is passionate about something. she makes spelling errors all thru her post. heehee we love you kiama, jade

Molly	01 Aug 2002
I just read this entire thread in amazement. Sorry if I am responding a little late, but I had to chime in my two cents... I will try my best to not sound like a parrot, re-hashing all the points I agreed with... First of all, I do agree with Divinerguy that we need a system to stop the abusers and this is all we have right now... and the people who work at DSS or CFS are humans, overworked and underpaid like everyone else... but Kiama has an extremely valid point: the children today are extremely savy and know how to manipulate the system. Parents should not be afraid to correct their children's bad behavior... I think it's sick that good people can have the government threatening to take away their children and the abusers keep their kids until they kill them. But there is no simple solution for this situation. Maybe it boils down to respect. If you can teach your kid to respect you while they are young by respecting them, then hopefully you wont have that fear of being called on DSS by them. I feel that APPROPRIATE correction is truly not something that can be decided for anyone else, as every parent and child combo is completely unique. (I think we all agree that verbal abuse that degrades someone or violent reactionary hitting out of anger is not appropriate). I really agreed with Kiama that whether it works depends most on how and when the discipline is administered... because if it is done right, it is truly correction and will result in changed behavior. I was surprised that Jade said she would never let anyone but her touch her children, not even their dad. I trust my husband as he is their parent too... but I guess I never really thought about it before. I saw Prem's mom angrily yell at Caleb (he's 2-1/2) and saw it hurt his feelings and I was too surprised to really say anything (she left the room) - and I just explained what he was doing that upset her and told him not to worry cuz I wasn't mad... I definitely would not like hearing her say, oh I spanked Caleb today, but that's because I don't trust her and I know she has a temper and verbally abused Prem. Prem himself just doesn't even have to spank at all. He gets our son's attention just by looking at him in an annoyed way. Caleb is more buddy-buddy with me and doesn't take me seriously. I use time-outs and swatting on the butt when I can't get through to him and re-direction isn't working. He is an extremely polite, sensitive, fun-loving with a lot of energy. I don't think you can carte blanch say that spanking is child abuse because it depends on who does the spanking, how, when, and why. And I agree, sometimes it just doesn't work. Sometimes it does. Time-outs work the best, but I never leave him in there for longer than his age (2 minutes). He even puts himself in time-out if he's upset and he comes out again very quickly (he can open the door himself). We are all different people with different experiences in our own childhood and I don't think anyone should tell someone else they are wrong IF that person is truly trying. I think it would be ideal to have one parent at home with the children as Jade mentioned, but as Kath described, that doesn't always do the trick. Some people can't afford to do anything but put their kids in daycare. I used to work in a daycare, and not all kids come into the daycare equal. You can (pretty much) tell the parents that don't take the night off just cuz they worked all day from the ones that probably just pick their kids up and ignore them all night, except maybe for dinner. People shouldn't feel bad if they have to use daycare - I know a lot of moms who would love to be home but can't do it. I'm home and I feel guilty all the time that I'm ignoring Caleb too much cuz I work on the computer and he watches PBS. I noticed someone said, no TV, and there's another example as to how all our situations are different. Parenting is a definitely a 24/7 job. But parents should also support each other as it is the hardest job on the planet to do right, and we could all use encouragement.... It's just that we are all on a path to becoming better human beings (hopefully) and unfortunately our kids have to journey that path with us while we are learning... just because you have an idea in theory doesn't necessarily mean it will work in reality and there really are no cut-in-stone scenerios when it comes to kids cuz just when you think you've found your groove, there's a new challenge... I guess my philosophy is that I have to do whatever it takes to help my kids be self-realized, courageous, compassionate, independent adults, and to enjoy contributing to their lives while I can and hearing their opinions as they figure them out... and if that means time-outs, swats on the butt, or falling asleep while watching TV, then so be it. ~Molly

Sam	01 Aug 2002
Since when are time outs abuse? Next thing you know, parents will be saying, "Okay, Jonny. You did a very bad thing. So go buy yourself an ice cream!"

Diana	02 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sam Since when are time outs abuse? Next thing you know, parents will be saying, "Okay, Jonny. You did a very bad thing. So go buy yourself an ice cream!" Funny that you mention this, Sam! Now, I'm really "lucky", in that my son has never been overly disobedient, foolish in a deliberate manner, never threw tantrums, stuff like that. (His difficulties in life lie elsewhere.) And since he has been born, I have only found the need to "punish" him once. I hate the word punishment. I prefer the word "sanction". Something that uplifts a person, and which doesn't humiliate them. (I do not find time-outing humiliating, by the way. I do find spanking, word abuse and deprivation humiliating and counter-productive.) When he was about four, I felt I had to do something about some repetitive behaviour. So for three days, he was not allowed to watch any television. However, whenever he wanted to turn on the television, we would instead play a game together - a game that needed co-operation, and tolerance for each other. (The "sanction" was given to him due to his intolerant and un-cooperative behaviour with his friends). His "punishment" was used in a positive manner. And I can tell you, did he appreciate this way of learning his lesson! And he learnt it. The change was remarkable. I got this method from a child psychologist I know. He had told me of an adolescent who was behaving so terribly at school, that the teachers were at the end of their tether. As this guy was a good chess player, he was then asked to stay at school every evening, and teach chess to the youngsters who wanted to learn. Apparently, within a few weeks, this adolescent's behaviour had changed and he became manageable. When possible, it is always better to uplift a child, to show him his potential, and not his weaknesses. Show him where his qualities lie, and not stress the imperfection. (Now, this doesn't mean I have never yelled at my kid, and once I even spanked him - it is one of my deepest regrets. However, this was done in anger, because my feelings were hurt and damaged, and were not meant as a punishment. I hate these moments more than anything in the world, and I have big problems forgiving myself. For it is I who have been unjust. I wish someone would give me a sanction when I do these things!! :) )

jade	02 Aug 2002
ah yes, the human part of being a parent. {{{hugs diana}}} love jade

The is discipline child abuse? thread was originally posted on 27 Jul 2002 in the Chat board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Chat, or read more archived threads.