What do YOU think about ageism in the Music Industry?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 26 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

DarkElectric	26 Jul 2002
Hi everybody! This is my first thread!!:) I was commenting in another post about the rampant ageism in the American Music industry. It seems that performers are being chosen at younger and younger ages, and that "Established Stars" such as Britney Spears are considered to be over the hill at 22! This also seems to be primarily a phenomenon of female talent, although we do have the little boy groups (Hanson) who seem to disappear as soon as they hit puberty. The Industry is having trouble making ends meet these days, and the competition for the teenage and "tweenage" dollars is exceedingly fierce. But, what about the rest of us? Dave Matthews is already being considered passe. Mariah Carey had a nervous breakdown. Is this possibly the result of overwhelming pressure and the perception that she is "Too Old'? I have experienced this personally. I am actually luckier, in a way, because the Sax is considered a "side" instrument. I am not a lead singer, so I'm a bit better off. I don't have to weigh 90 pounds, and look like a supermodel. But I still have to be young and pretty. The problem is, most talented people's abilities GET BETTER WITH TIME! So my question is, If all of us 25 +year old "geezers" are being farmed out, what does that say for the shape of the pop music scene? It seems brutally unfair to be overlooked merely because of your age. We have a band who came from my state. They're called "Reville". Those kids were signed to a major record label when half the band was under 14. No joke. Green Day had the same thing happen to them. They have since vanished like a sno cone on a hot sidewalk. I would like to know, What do you guys think about the ageism in pop music thing? Do you think it's good, bad, or not really relevant? I'd really like to know how other people feel about this, since it the industry decisions do have such a profound influence on our culture, and how we perceive ourselves.

jade	26 Jul 2002
wow, what a great thought provoking post for your first one.....i can hardly wait for your next thread! i agree that it is sad when musicians or models etc get put to pasture when they are sooo young. hard to make a career when you are out in your early 20's! in light, jade

oriel	26 Jul 2002
ageism sucks...it seems the industry doesn't really care what ppl my age like :), and that they're relying on the teens to provide their revenue. oh well...

Sam	26 Jul 2002
ugh! on the nick cannon show, they made a joke about this! it was the youngest singer ever and he was a fetus! lol! britney is passe, you have to admit. she could never sing to begin with. but like dave mathews, and others, i think your right!

wavebreaker	26 Jul 2002
I suppose this is exactly why I hate pop music: it's all about looks, not about talent, it's all very superficial. Just look at all the boy bands and girl bands that are created just for "the market": the members are picked for their looks ("we need a blonde one, and a dark one, and a cute one..."), not for their talents. My definition of a good artist/band is: if it still sounds good when played live, then they're good, i.e. they have talent. Because with modern day technology, they can make everyone sound good on CD.

DarkElectric	26 Jul 2002
No, I never did like Miss Britney much. Or the other "industry fact of life" which literally dictates (as in dictators!) that females have to be hyper sexy, and therefore talent can take the backseat (ooooohhhh. Sorry, my cynicism showing?) which is to me, very unfair to talented male performers who actually have to make the grade and not rely on being "eye candy". This actually cheapens truly talented females as well, and is the source a lot of the backstabbing and resentment among preformers. There is a lot of jealousy here. This sucks. We should be unified as artists, not cutting each other's throats and parading around with the "I'm sexier than you" attitude. I knew a woman who had been receiving Rolling Stone magazine since it first came out. She cancelled her subscription last year because, as she said, "It's not about music anymore, it's soft core porn". Don't get me wrong. I'm no prude. But music is to listen to, isn't it? So the oversexed industry is making music a VISUAL medium, which by it's very nature, music is not. People are paying less attention to what they are hearing, and more to what they see, and in my opinion this defeats the whole purpose of music. I guess I'm a purist in a way. I see music as a transcendent medium, which can elevate the soul and inspire great dreams. Bt I am not inspired by videos of women dressed as hookers, and dancing like strippers who are also supposed to be taken as serious musicians. I would love to see Weird Al do a takeoff on Destiny's Child.

amyel	26 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by DarkElectric "It's not about music anymore, it's soft core porn". Don't get me wrong. I'm no prude. But music is to listen to, isn't it? So the oversexed industry is making music a VISUAL medium, which by it's very nature, music is not. Ah, but this is the way of society in general - at least in North America. I can't speak for other countries, although I suspect it is just as bad in Britian, which created "Pop Stars" and their version of "American Idol" and is known for it's brutality in the "flavor of the month" attitude towards music. Anyway, I digress. What I started to say was: as a society, N.America *is* all about looks and sex. It isn't just music. When my 12 y.o. figure skating stepdaughter tells me she needs to diet because she's "too fat", when she "hates" a boy band because "they are all ugly", when she continually makes comments based on what people look like or are wearing.....well, I have to wonder what the media thinks it is up to? And we wonder why pedophilia seems to be increasing? This current trend towards "fat" models (as a size 12!!!) is only mildly reassuring, but I suspect won't last. I feel kinda bad fro Britney. I don't care for her music, never have, but to be "washed up" at 22....geez. What message does that give her and more importantly, her fans? Not a very good one, I'm afraid.

DarkElectric	27 Jul 2002
There are a lot of ugly messages being perpetuated. Pedophilia. Indeed. And popularity based on superficiality. And reinforcing the horrible sexist notion that a woman doesn't really need any talent if she looks good. Which is a slap in the face to talented women everywhere. It never fails to amaze me that people are now forgetting that little girls are NOT for sex, they're children. Jon Benet Ramsay. The pictures of that poor child. They tarted up a six year old, and made her look 20. She never had a childhood, and died as an ersatz adult. What people are in denial about is..."Youth "only physicallylasts about 15 years, from age 14 to 30. It actually lasts longer than it did back in, say, the 1950's when people actually were expected to get married by 21, men and women alike. People were adults, and acted like adults. They were expected to go to school, get jobs, and grow up. Not anymore. Nobody wants to face the fact that there are more adults out there than teenagers. And what does this mean for the majority of Americans who are being dispossessed by the Youth cult? Where are the stars that represent the normal population? I know 40 year old men who chase 19 year olds, and think they have every right to. They trade in their faithful wives because they think they deserve a "hottie" (vile term, that!). This is the sick and twisted message we are receiving. That people are disposable, that beautiful women are commodities that every male deserves, (More reinforcement of the myth of male privilege) and that all of us are supposed to strive to conform to this deformed and unnatural beauty ideal. Sex is a natural part of life, but this culture overrates it to the point that it seems as if that's the only reason to be alive. What's wrong with this picture? The plastic surgeons are making out like bandits. Hoardes of desperate clients jamming their appointment books trying to evade the inevitable. Why is it NOT ok to be what nature has determined we can't help being? You poor daughter. I hope she realises that she isn't fat, and manages to hold on to her self esteem without becoming an anorexic Barbie wannabe. May I reccommend the book "Reviving Ophelia" by Mary Pipher. it is an excellent book concerning adolescent girls that every mom should read. It would be tragic should your daughter become yet another victim ofthe soulless marketing culture that has, sadly, become the "American Way".

kayne	27 Jul 2002
I agree that artists are often signed on and given their *big break* very young these days, but then it is a matter of reinventing themselves, doing new things in new ways and being good business people to keep up. Excellent examples: Madonna, Cher, Bjork and Kylie Minogue. I think that the artist can't just be attractive if they want to survive, they need to be smart and take risks to survive.

cricket	27 Jul 2002
If it were just the music industry - which it obviously isn't - it probably wouldn't be so bad. However, this is not the case. This sort of thing invades every part of our lives. We are constantly inundated with images of 'perfect' people. These 'perfect' people are what we are supposed to strive to be. They are young, beautiful, powerful, rich, morally degenerate in many cases, violent in many cases, and a few other things I couldn't possibly think of this late at night/early in the morning. So, yes, things are bad. However, we should also look at the other side of this - with all the hype about the bad things these people are, many 'regular' people are inadvertantly sharing the limelight. How many times have you picked up a magazine, looked at somebody inside, then happened to glance up and see somebody more beautiful JUST BECAUSE they were normal? How many times have you listened to a song on the radio that was offensive when done by the 'artist' then heard somebody else sing it and found it to be one of the best songs you've ever heard? There are also so many famous people being seen in different stages of their lives, shedding a little different light on things. Up until recently pregnancy was seen as something to be hidden. It just wasn't normally accepted to see an obviously pregnant woman out in public unless something was wrong. Because of the media, this has changed. Now people aren't afraid to be seen when in such a blessed state. Old age is not seen as being so ugly anymore. Neither are newborns (even though I think they all look like E.T.). What truly bothers me most is the fact that these stars - even the ones as young a ten, or younger - can be seen in as little as they like, and nothing will be done. However if the 'normal' family lets their child out of the house in as little as some of the stars wear, they are very likely to be arrested. This is not a concern for me personally (there are benefits to being known by all the officers in an area) but does effect many people in the US. Parents are afraid to let their babies go in just diapers - it could be considered pornographic if they happened to take pictures of them like that. It gets even worse as the child ages. That is, until they get to the age of about 13. Then it's a free-for-all... as long as they don't get caught. Maybe this is a product of all the younger and younger famous people looking and acting as they do. Maybe it's a lack of parenting. Maybe it's a lot of different things blended together. Who knows?

WolfSpirit	27 Jul 2002
This thread makes me realize how much I do not follow the music industry and popular culture in general. Thanks to a thrifty landlord we have limited cable only and no MTV, and I don't watch much TV anyway so I turn on my PC go to Aeclectic while listening to the radio, it's classic rock which means many artists are in their fifties or dead already. Other then rock music I also like blues and artists usually keep playing until they drop dead. But I guess it's very difficult for honest musicians to keep making the music they want without compromising, when all the money goes to the one night stands. I know there would be more good musicians still around if the music business had been supportive about their music not forcing them to fit a certain image. Kayne mentions Madonna, she's a good example of someone who survived it all but I think we cannot blame people for not having that strong a character, I know I don't for starters, and I probably would not want to sacrifice my private life either.

RedWood	27 Jul 2002
I have to agree on most of what you said..Specially about the pedophiles..it also bothers me that these little girls are in beauty pagents with sexy little dresses and tons of makeup..they are made to look like a small adult..so you see why pedophiles get little girls.. What about Avril Levagne..she is not made to be a sexy girl completely..How long before that ends? Didn't some of these artists like Britney choose to wear more revealing clothes..yes i am sure the record label was not complaining...The artists do have a choice..I agree it is unfair that they have to make the choice to look sexy or not get a deal...It is all of media not just the music industry...

divinerguy	27 Jul 2002
Sounds like a Fiona Apple video.

Violet Gargoyle	27 Jul 2002
What is find amusing about music cultures is that in the US it seems like the homegrown "next big things" have to be young to get famous. However, musicians outside the US that find airplay here are generally more excepted regardless of age. (Loreena McKennitt, Enya, the Cheiftains) Perhaps us Americans are more willing to think that older musicians seem more sophistocated if they had a different accent? There are of course exceptions to this rule, and once you establish yourself properly fame will stay with you through the ages. But like I said, it seems to be the trend.

amyel	27 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by cricket Old age is not seen as being so ugly anymore. Well, IMHO, this is only partly true. "Old age" is now "acceptable" because the baby-boomers are getting "old" and the advertisers are trying to capitilize on it. And how many older folk do we see who allow themselves to age gracefully, as nature intended? I'm not talking about thsoe who exercise and eat right, I'm talking about the ones who get plastic surgery so they remain "youthful" and then wax poetic about how much they enjoy being older. Think Joan Rivers. Think Cher, for that matter. Quote: Originally posted by cricket What truly bothers me most is the fact that these stars - even the ones as young a ten, or younger - can be seen in as little as they like, and nothing will be done. However if the 'normal' family lets their child out of the house in as little as some of the stars wear, they are very likely to be arrested. This is not a concern for me personally (there are benefits to being known by all the officers in an area) but does effect many people in the US. Parents are afraid to let their babies go in just diapers - it could be considered pornographic if they happened to take pictures of them like that. I often say that societies' morales and values are like a pendulum: Liberal, conservative, liberal, conservative, and then it even outs. Right now, we are still swinging back & forth, as this example shows. And it's also part of that "famous folk live by a different set of rules" attitude. Not that *that's* anything new - the rich & famous have always believed that they don't have to follow the rules of the common folk - it's been true since the hunters & gatherers first settled in towns. It's called *power*. Quote: Originally posted by cricket It gets even worse as the child ages. That is, until they get to the age of about 13. Then it's a free-for-all... as long as they don't get caught. Maybe this is a product of all the younger and younger famous people looking and acting as they do. Maybe it's a lack of parenting. Maybe it's a lot of different things blended together. Who knows? Which brings us back to the advertisers again: the next biggest market to the baby-boomers are the "tweenies" (sometimes referred to as the "echo generation" - boom, echo). But I do think it is partly parenting, and you alluded to it earlier: parents have no power anymore, the power has been given to the very young. Problem is, they don't know what to do with it, or how to handle it, all they know is that if they don't like what mommy & daddy make them eat for dinner, or they don't like being hugged after being spanked, then they can "complain" and that will make mommy & daddy stop. They just do not have the capacity to understand the implications of their allegations.

The What do YOU think about ageism in the Music Industry? thread was originally posted on 26 Jul 2002 in the Chat board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Chat, or read more archived threads.