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What Ideas do you think need to be changed in order to improve our society?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 28 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.



DarkElectric  28 Jul 2002 
We live in a world of ideas. Everything that has ever existed begins with an idea, therefore, so do both our problems, and their solutions. I've often said that "Bad ideas kill people". But what is a bad idea? How do we tell bad ideas from good? Some things that were considered good ideas it the time turned out to be horrible in the long run. ( Nuclear energy, pesticides.) The changing of the world begins with the changing of the mind. What ideas do you think should be changed, reinforced, or done away with altogether to make our society a better place for everyone? 


wavebreaker  28 Jul 2002 
Difficult question, it would be nice to have an easy answer ;).

But I think a lot of it revolves around respect: respecting each other and respecting our environment. Because I think that a lot of the problems we're having at the moment are caused by a lack of respect: in the way we treat each other and in the way we treat our environment. 


jade  28 Jul 2002 
i agree.

i think that open honest communication is another one that would benefit the world in general. rather than every country wondering what alterior motives others have.......if everyone was just honest, it would be better.

heehee, but i realize that another country saying "well, we plan on blowing up your parliment building next week" isn't gonna work.

oh well.

in light,
jade 


wavebreaker  28 Jul 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by jade
heehee, but i realize that another country saying "well, we plan on blowing up your parliment building next week" isn't gonna work.
At least it's honest... ;)
But then maybe if they would be honest about WHY they want to blow up that parliament building, maybe that might help? Then again, politics and honesty don't really seem to go together... :( 


RedWood  28 Jul 2002 
I definately think people need some common sense to go with those ideas...Respect, definately for different religions.. 


DarkElectric  28 Jul 2002 
I definitely think respect is the key. It seems to be in such short
supply. And honesty. And we have to eliminate selfishness. That
goes hand in hand with respect. There's really enough for
everyone, if we all would learn to share. But, there are always
the people who want to be "Better" than other people, so let's
get rid of elitism too. If we can reinforce kindness and trust, then
we can dispense with insecurity. Because insecurity can lead to
all kinds of destructive ideas. National insecurity has led us to the
point that we have so many weapons that were anyone to be
stupid enough to use them, the destruction of all life is assured.
We are always being told that we need these weapons. Why? If
nobody had any, what would happen then? But now we have to
look at the underlying reasons for war. And what are those?

Hmmm. 


RedWood  28 Jul 2002 
Could you really imagine a life without war? I find it rather scary..I would prefer war to played over a monopoly game or something with strategy and heart...no one gets killed..and if they have to fight..do something like boxing or wrestling..karate..tournaments...There are better ways.. 


jade  28 Jul 2002 
i think empathy would be a great assett for society as a whole. although, many of us already possess that quality.

in light,
jade 


amyel  28 Jul 2002 
I think one has to question ideas that will...how do I say this?...place one person/country/society as the winner and one as the loser - and it can be a very subtle balance.

For example: I was reading in today's paper about George W. Bush's plan to "employ" certain people in society, like mail carriers, utlities workers, delivery folk, etc, to watch and report on any "suspicious" activities. This editorial pointed out that this has already occurred in the states during McCarthy0ism, and in Cold War Germany withthe Stasi - and I I don't think any of us would suggest these turned out very good. I mean, where does one draw the line.

A more subtle example is many countries very good intentions towards helping Africa. But the way most countries go about this - and I am not talking about grassroots movements, such as the Nigerian women blocking the oil company - is in a manner which suggests that Africa is incapable of helping themselves, which I do not believe to be true.

My husband has an old Body Shop t-shirt that says something to the effect of "Don't give a man a fish - teach him to fish".

So I guess I'd like to see more ideas discussed and maybe examining the motives behind some of these ideas wouldn't hurt, either. 


wavebreaker  28 Jul 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by amyel
A more subtle example is many countries very good intentions towards helping Africa. But the way most countries go about this - and I am not talking about grassroots movements, such as the Nigerian women blocking the oil company - is in a manner which suggests that Africa is incapable of helping themselves, which I do not believe to be true.
I very much agree with you on that! The western world can sometimes be very patronizing towards Africa. I mean, just the term "Third World countries" says enough (although I admit that I use it myself sometimes... :( ). 


lunalafey  28 Jul 2002 
A friend of mine always says, No Problems Only Solutions....
I have alot of ideas that would solve some problems.
problem 1: Animal/medical testing
problem 2: prison over-population
problem 3: high tax spending
solution 1: do testing on deathrow/life sentence inmates. won't happen because it would be considerd cruel and unusual punishment. UM...why are they there in the first place?
Quote:
Originally posted by amyel

For example: I was reading in today's paper about George W. Bush's plan to "employ" certain people in society, like mail carriers, utlities workers, delivery folk, etc, to watch and report on any "suspicious" activities.

this was the Q of the week in our little newspaper. asked to 9 or 10 people, NO ONE LIKES IT. one who was asked works one of these jobs, and he said that it does not relate to his job and he would not do it.
We as humans/citizens should report a dangerous situation. but not poke around in others lives to find one. 


wavebreaker  28 Jul 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by lunalafey
solution 1: do testing on deathrow/life sentence inmates. won't happen because it would be considerd cruel and unusual punishment. UM...why are they there in the first place?
So, what happened to respect all of a sudden? I think they are there because they were never taught respect in the first place, which is why they turned into criminals, not respecting human life. Treating them without respect will only prove them right. Treating them with respect, as humans, will break the vicious circle.
Don't get me wrong: by saying that they should be treated with respect I don't mean that they shouldn't be punished, they certainly deserve to be punished for what they did. I just don't approve of cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment, because that way you stoop to the level of the criminal. 


jade  28 Jul 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by tarotlady
"Third World countries"



did you know that the term third world actually refers to the death rate of newborns.

if the death rate is high, then it is considered a third world country.

jade 


Kyrie Blue  28 Jul 2002 
I think an an important idea is 'acceptance' We need to accept differences in people, cultures and even ideas. Many of the 'isms' can be attributed to lack of acceptance. If we could all accept the differences in eachother, that would lead to respecting eachother and would hopefully lead to an improved society.

Well, thats my two cents worth. 


DarkElectric  28 Jul 2002 
I'm so happy people are responding to this thread! Ideas are so important. Without them there is nothing but what Nietszche refers to as "Wretched Contentment" which is a condition of bored placidity. Ideas spark of our imaginations. They keep wonder alive. The "what if" is as important as the what is. Keep em' coming, folks! Speak up and be heard! 


Dark Inquisitor  28 Jul 2002 
There are plenty of bad ideas floating around. The problem is that people are so shortsighted & ignorant that they don't realize it until the problems that result are too big & out of control.

I don't think things , as a general rule , can be changed right now. They have to fall of their own weight.

If you look closely at American society, major sectors have been falling for decades. Family, financial, educational, judicial, intelligence & defense , religion, etc. The seeds of disaster planted long ago are just now breaking the surface of the average person's awareness.

I do think though, that women have the power to change the world overnight. If they will stop accepting the status quo. Stop accepting lies, making men the most important thing in your life, accepting the abuse of your children, being slaves to fashion & soap operas. Women are in the pink ghetto - their minds are Barbie-ized and they don't even realize it. Or they think that in order to "fix" their female-ness they must become like men. (My daughter call this "manopause.")

Someday, this will reach critical mass and fall too, but it may take longer than anything else because it is so deeply entrenched and women are fragmented - motivated mostly by the need for male approval, and not what they themselves need. 


DarkElectric  29 Jul 2002 
Manopause! I love it! You have a definitely valid point. Kate
Millet, in her book Sexual Politics said "Racism will be addressed
and eradicated long before sexism is." She was right. Look a
t how we now realise the evil and ugliness of judging people by
their skin colour. But NOBODY wants to even bring up sexism.
How come it's wrong to denigrate a person of colour, but not a
woman? And if a racial ephithet is hurled at a woman of colour,
she can take that person to court, sue, and win, beacuse this is
against the law. But if she is debased because she is a woman,
well, she gets "Just deal with it, honey, you know how men are."
There is no recrimination. But men aren't just "Like That".
Disrespect is learned behaviour. I know lots of men who don't
disrespect women, but this culture encourages them to do so.
Even if they don't want to. There's too much of this "Boys will be
Boys" crapola. How about "People are people, and let's treat all
people with respect"? How do we do this? Can we dispense
with the colour coding stupidity of Blue and Pink? Can we not
have fathers freak out if boys don't want to play with toy guns and trucks? Can we not have moms tell their daughters' Why do
you have to play hockey, it's so unfeminine"? This has got to go.
People are People. There are only 2 kinds, male and female. And
one isn't "Better" than the other. Or more "Entitled". This is a
deadly bad idea. And it has to be eradicated worldwide so we
don't have people being trapped under house arrest because a
male member of the family isn't available to take them to the
market. A 40 year old woman can't go out by herself, but if a 10
year old nephew accompanies her, she can. What's wrong with
this picture? Why are men so afraid to address the obvious, that
men and women are equals? Maybe they're afraid the goodies
will stop coming, and nobody wants to derail the gravy train. Selfishness cares not about injustice. It's time for that to go too.
Sexism damages men as much as it hurts women. They die
earlier, are only allowed to express a few emotions (the MANLY
ones, like anger) and exclude themselves from the true joys of
sexual intimacy by mking sure they don't get "trapped by one woman". Men are human beings, not fur bearing animals. It
would be great if we gould rid ourselves of sexism for the benefit
of everyone. 


lunalafey  29 Jul 2002 
Originally posted by tarotlady
So, what happened to respect all of a sudden? I think they are there because they were never taught respect in the first place, which is why they turned into criminals..
keep in mind this does not go for ALL criminals. There are those that come from good homes and are just sick twisted individuals that have no concept for treating other humans with respect and are absolutly dangerous by nature.

Treating them without respect will only prove them right. Treating them with respect, as humans, will break the vicious circle.
who is them? the seriel murderers and rapists? do you think they care? If we said 'here ya' go Mr. Manson, we are going to respect you as a human' do you think he would change? I think people as a whole need to learn a bit more respect, THAT will break the cycle. If there is something to NOT look forward to if one does something bad, then one might reconsider thier actions(except those that are seriously deranged). It is like all these children that have been taken from thier homes...IN THERE HOMES!!!! If people did not have to fear a prison sentence for defending thier family and property, perhaps there would not be so many intrusions and violations.

Don't get me wrong: by saying that they should be treated with respect I don't mean that they shouldn't be punished, they certainly deserve to be punished for what they did. I just don't approve of cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment, because that way you stoop to the level of the criminal. [/quote]
what did the rat do to be subjected to experimentation?
why do I get to be punished by having my tax money spent on feeding and housing these hard criminals, I have it hard enough feeding and housing my own family and I work my butt of for it, all they had to do was kill someone. I do not see how it would be stooping to the level of a criminal; testing on inmates is nothing like cutting the arms and legs of a woman and leaving her in a ditch to die, that is inhumane. Testing would be a benefit to mankind, I think that is a small price to pay for taking the life of another in such a sadistic way.
I have heard some say 'you must give respect to get respect'


the REAL problem, this planet is the cage and WE are the rats.... 


jade  29 Jul 2002 
just a quick note to all...........

please be sure to follow the forum guidelines while posting. i realize that this thread is getting......well.......a bit hot around the collar, so i thought i would mention this before anyone gets too hot.

in light,
one of the moderator chicks
jade 


jade  29 Jul 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tarotphelia

I do think though, that women have the power to change the world overnight. If they will stop accepting the status quo. Stop accepting lies, making men the most important thing in your life, accepting the abuse of your children, being slaves to fashion & soap operas. Women are in the pink ghetto - their minds are Barbie-ized and they don't even realize it. Or they think that in order to "fix" their female-ness they must become like men. (My daughter call this "manopause.")

Someday, this will reach critical mass and fall too, but it may take longer than anything else because it is so deeply entrenched and women are fragmented - motivated mostly by the need for male approval, and not what they themselves need.


i soooo disagree with you. i am not barbie-ized and yes, i would realize it if i was, i am VERY aware of myself and my role in society.

i am not motivated by the need for male approval and i'm not fragmented.

i find your statements stereotypes and incorrect.

in light,
jade 


wavebreaker  29 Jul 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by lunalafey
keep in mind this does not go for ALL criminals. There are those that come from good homes and are just sick twisted individuals that have no concept for treating other humans with respect and are absolutly dangerous by nature.
That's because they've never been taught respect, by their parents and/or their environment. Coming from a good home doesn't automatically mean you've been taught respect.
I don't believe that people are dangerous by nature. I think that is a dangerous statement, it implies that people could be divided into "those that are dangerous by nature" and "those that are not dangerous by nature".

Quote:
If people did not have to fear a prison sentence for defending thier family and property, perhaps there would not be so many intrusions and violations.
Again, I'm not advocating that they shouldn't be punished, please reread my earlier post. Anyone who has broken the law should be punished accordingly.
But if you treat prisoners without respect, they will come out of prison worse than they came in, they will only be confirmed in their ideas that they are not respected and thus don't need to respect others. If you treat them with respect, you're teaching them respect and you might change them. In my opinion, prison sentences aren't intended just for punishment, but also for reform. Because otherwise what's the use of locking someone up if they are going to do the exact same thing again the minute they get out?
Of course, there are those that don't deserve to be let out ever again, but IMO that still doesn't mean you can do with them whatever you like.

Quote:
what did the rat do to be subjected to experimentation?
That's a whole different discussion, I'm just saying that I think no humans should be subjected to testing.

Quote:
why do I get to be punished by having my tax money spent on feeding and housing these hard criminals, I have it hard enough feeding and housing my own family and I work my butt of for it, all they had to do was kill someone.
You seem to forget that people in prison have had their freedom taken away from them, which for me would be the biggest punishment possible. I really don't think prison is such a wonderful place, just because the prisoners get free feeding and housing...
We once had an experiment here a few years ago: after a new prison had been built and before the prisoners moved in, people had the chance to spend a weekend in prison, just to see what it was like. This was done because there are so many people who are always saying that prisoners have such an easy life. A lot of people participated in the experiment and they all completely changed their mind afterwards: they would never ever want to go to prison...

Quote:
I do not see how it would be stooping to the level of a criminal; testing on inmates is nothing like cutting the arms and legs of a woman and leaving her in a ditch to die, that is inhumane.
Both are inhumane to me, but I guess we just disagree on that one.

Quote:
I have heard some say 'you must give respect to get respect'
Which is exactly my point: if you teach people respect, you will get respect. And this is something children should be taught at an early age. A lot has already said about this in the thread on child discipline. 


wavebreaker  29 Jul 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tarotphelia
I do think though, that women have the power to change the world overnight. If they will stop accepting the status quo. Stop accepting lies, making men the most important thing in your life, accepting the abuse of your children, being slaves to fashion & soap operas. Women are in the pink ghetto - their minds are Barbie-ized and they don't even realize it. Or they think that in order to "fix" their female-ness they must become like men. (My daughter call this "manopause.")

Someday, this will reach critical mass and fall too, but it may take longer than anything else because it is so deeply entrenched and women are fragmented - motivated mostly by the need for male approval, and not what they themselves need.
I'm sorry, but I find your remarks very patronizing. I don't know which women you're talking about, but I'm not one of them. As a matter of fact, I don't know any women who would fit your description. I'm sure there are women who are "Barbie-ized", but that doesn't mean all women are.

One of the things we should do to improve our society, is to stop generalizing and to stop using stereotypes. Our society isn't about men and women, or black people and white people, or whatever distinction you want to make. It's about individuals who are all different. 


divinerguy  29 Jul 2002 
Would it be fair to say that we are skeptical, and perhaps even afraid of what is different?

As a culture, we are suspicious of what is new or strange. We don't trust it. Sometimes we even ascribe negative characteristics to it. Whatever "it" may be.

We need to change the idea that what is strange to us is bad. We need to judge things and people only when they need judging; I think we'll all sleep better at night if we do.

As Tarot practitioners, we're all fully aware of just how hurtful prejudice can be, so I don't think its significance is unknown to us. 


Dark Inquisitor  29 Jul 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by tarotlady
I'm sorry, but I find your remarks very patronizing. I don't know which women you're talking about, but I'm not one of them. As a matter of fact, I don't know any women who would fit your description. I'm sure there are women who are "Barbie-ized", but that doesn't mean all women are.

One of the things we should do to improve our society, is to stop generalizing and to stop using stereotypes. Our society isn't about men and women, or black people and white people, or whatever distinction you want to make. It's about individuals who are all different.


I wasn't referring to you personally, and I was talking mostly about society in America. I never said ALL women. Society is about groups- they are regularly measured & categorized for the purposes of study, whether we like it or not. I refer to disturbing trends that I see very regularly that no one seems to address for whatever reason. 


Dark Inquisitor  29 Jul 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by jade


i soooo disagree with you. i am not barbie-ized and yes, i would realize it if i was, i am VERY aware of myself and my role in society.

i am not motivated by the need for male approval and i'm not fragmented.

i find your statements stereotypes and incorrect.

in light,
jade


I was not referring to you personally. The fragmentation I refer to is the failure or inability of women at the present time as a whole to be able to to unify for change. I am glad no one you have ever known fits this description. 


wavebreaker  29 Jul 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tarotphelia
I wasn't referring to you personally, and I was talking mostly about society in America
Ok, I don't have an opinion about society in America...

Quote:
I never said ALL women. Society is about groups- they are regularly measured & categorized for the purposes of study, whether we like it or not. I refer to disturbing trends that I see very regularly that no one seems to address for whatever reason.
No, you didn't say ALL women, you just said women, which to me implies a generalisation of all women. But ok, I misunderstood that.
As for the disturbing trends you mention: I don't have an opinion on those, as I don't see them in my own society. 


Laurel  29 Jul 2002 
I think our society needs to learn the concept of "personal accountability". For the last few generations, we've been raised to blame. There's been very little emphasis on looking at our own actions and self-discipline, self-moderation, self-sacrifice. We might idealize these concepts but do we ~practice~ them consistently?

Going hand-in-hand with personal accountability would be a lot more tolerance and a lot less criticism & retort. Our society as a whole and we as individuals generally need to learn to pick the battles that matter, and fight to solve the problem rather than fight to "win".

Laurel 


DarkElectric  29 Jul 2002 
Personal accountability is a WONDERFUL idea! If we try to teach
this concept to our children, and to others through our
behaviour, I think it would go a long way to improving things
greatly. We are all responsible for our actions, and we are free
beings, in the respect that we have the greatest gift of all, freedom of choice. We have the choice to do what we know is
right, and even when we see people we may know "getting away
with things", If we don't think it's right, we can choose not to do
it. Those folks may get some short term benefit, but in the long
run, the "Easy way out" doesn't do much for character building.
Integrity and honesty can be hard to hold onto in a "Winner take
All" situation. But as we are seeing now, Even big companies
and CEO's are not immune to justice. And I think, that deep down inside, most people really do know the difference between right
and wrong. I see a new world coming. One where people are
judged on their merits and accomplishments instead of where
they went to school and who's family members are major
shareholders. Where all people can freely display their talents
and abilities and not have to worry about being judged on their
gender or skin colour. Where all men and women have the
freedom to be seen as themselves, and not feel as if they have
to conform to silly and limiting prejudices to establish their
identity. So many people have taken these brave steps already,
and refuse to allow the threat of social censure or foolishness
interfere with their living beautiful, joy filled lives that enrich their
immediate circle, and everyone else as well. I like the personal
accountability idea. After all, we really DO have a choice. 


zorya  29 Jul 2002 
i would like it if everyone could understand that we are all interconnected. if we could all stop seeing each other as "us" and "them". 


Mermaid  29 Jul 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by amyel

A more subtle example is many countries very good intentions towards helping Africa. But the way most countries go about this - and I am not talking about grassroots movements, such as the Nigerian women blocking the oil company - is in a manner which suggests that Africa is incapable of helping themselves, which I do not believe to be true.



Actually, I think that we '1st world' nations have a lot to learn from the '3rd world' ones.

I was told in an ecology lecture that the average American uses over 100 times more resources (food, oil, land, water...) as the average African.

(and most other 1st world nations are nearly as bad as America)

In this age of pollution you'd think we'd be following Africa's lead by reducing per capita consumption, wouldn't you?

Instead, you see the '3rd world' struggling to become more like us... I don't mean things like better health care and education, I think everyone should have those. But (as an example) I was living in Nepal a few years back and what scared me was the idyllic perception of Western society that all the Nepalis I talked to had. BTW, all of these people were well fed, had homes, clothes and (on the whole) had access to a tolerable level of health care and education. But what they wanted were cars, refrigerators, TVs, Levis, Coke, MacDonalds just like the tourists had...

I tried to tell them that their country was rich in ways mine wasn't...But to them the West was a paradise, and they wouldn't believe that we had any problems at all in New Zealand...

*Sigh* There's something just plain backwards about all this... :( 


LeoLady  29 Jul 2002 
People are just people, no matter what anyone says they are. The world would be a very boring place if everyone was the same..good and light and happy!!

How can we appreciate happiness if we haven't been sad?

How can we appreciate a smile is we don't cry?

I think there's a place for everyone and everything in society. I'm also a firm believer that noone is 'evil'. That comment may cause an uproar, and you could all quote people who have committed evil crimes to me, but that is just what they have 'done'..not what they are. It annoys me no end that society sterotypes these people into monsters, when i feel they ought to address the 'problem' within that person, as oppose to just locking them up and throwing away the key.

Needless to say, I am fortunate in that I haven't been a victim of any kind of atrocities (don't think i spelt that right) but I hope one day that people will just accept there is good and bad in everyone, and tha we are all capapble of nasty and horrible things, but as someone mentioned before....We CHOOSE not to do these things. It's all about choice in the end. Whatever we choose, we take the consequences for...good or bad. 


Umbrae  29 Jul 2002 
History and Journaism. Not only our view of history needs to be changed, but also how it is ‘taught’.

Schools tend to break knowledge and experience into subjects, turning wholes into parts. History becomes events without continuity.

Folks are taught about how the evil Spaniards killed the Aztecs. Are children taught that the Aztecs and the Nahautls? About how the Aztecs would head off to the Nahautl people, capture them and put them to death? 25,000 over a two-day period? We are taught that the Aztecs were a kind and gentle people that the evil European types slaughtered.
What was it that had Europe in the Dark Ages while the rest of the world flourished with great advances in Medicine and Science (especially Astronomy and Mathematics)? What was the significance of Constantinople? Can we ever say the word "Theocracy"?
We know that Fibonacci brought back from Egypt the concept of the Zero, that started the Banking Industry in Tuscan in the early eleven hundreds but we remember him for the "Golden Mean.” But who remembers where the Arabs got the concept of the Zero (The Chinese is the correct answer)?
They sent Marco Polo out for Chinese Food. Now we think that eating Spaghetti is to dine Italian!
Some Rabbi in Tiberias translated the works of Plato from Arabic and then the works made their way to Europe (a little after Fibonacci and his Zero) and Europe began to experience their renaissance (It is still taught as though they thought of it all on their own. To imply otherwise is to imply that the Europeans [i.e.: white man] could not bring about change on their own and that is blasphemy).
Parents look at falling SAT scores, and cry for more of the 3R's and then do not bat an eye when Art is the first subject dropped from the curriculum when budgets become tight. God help you if you cut the budget for sports!
I oft times think that it is the fault of journalists and historians, which has left us with such a fractured view of history.
Example: The Wright Brothers are known as the fathers of flight. They invented the Airplane. Not true. The first powered flight actually occurred in May of 1901 in Bridgeport Connecticut by a Gustav Whitehead. However, you will never find him in history books. Why? Perhaps to give credit to a German immigrant named Gustav Weisskopf would be un-American. As for the Wright Brothers Aeroplane, it was unable to fly unless it had a 25-27mph headwind that aided in overcoming ground drag since it was underpowered. Wright brothers’ flights after Dec 17, 1903 were aided by a weight-driven catapult.
In dealing in the Financial markets over the last 10 years many times I have read in Barron's, or the Wall Street Journal about "Why" a particular issue went moved in the direction it did. Very often, the "Why" is so far removed from fact it becomes laughable. Example: July 1996 Wheat crop. It was reported that the crop had blight. It was reported the crop had Grey Mold. Fact: There was no winter wheat crop. Most of it froze due to no snow cover, and the wind blew the sprouts into other states.
Then they turn journalists loose onto the unsuspecting public in the political arena. Holy God these folks know nothing about history, make up stuff and print it as fact! They should be pillared and stocked!
Many folks of today wonder why older black Americans are staunch Republicans, when the Democrats "Care and do so much for the disadvantaged minorities.” Many older black Americans remember that it was Woodrow Wilson who segregated the Federal government and government offices, encouraged the resurgence of the by then dead KKK (lynchings became rampant as far north as Duluth), set up the Creel Commission, railroaded the Espionage act of June 1917, and the Sedition act the following year. Wilson’s postmaster general used his censorship powers to suppress all mail that was socialist, anti-British, or pro-Irish. As a staunch nativist he questioned the loyalty of any of those he called "hyphenated Americans.” "Any man who carries a hyphen about with him, carries a dagger that he is ready to plunge into the vitals of this Republic whenever he gets ready.” The Creel Committee saturated the United States with propaganda linking Germans to barbarism. The Democratic Party has never apologized, nor do history textbooks educate our budding journalists the truth. 


DarkElectric  29 Jul 2002 
We are all interconnected. All life on this planet is. And we need to realise that we have the power to make effective change through the power of effective choice. I disagree that we should use prisoners for medical experiments. Even though they chose not to act like human beings, they still are. This may sound overly religious of me, but I think an ultimate authority will effectively punish their depraved acts. And I believe there was a "Doctor", who preformed medical experiments on the incarcerated sometime around 1940, (if I correctly recall) was there not? Unfortunately, the justice system has been known to be terribly flawed, and many times innocent people are convicted of horrible crimes they didn't commit. (Anybody see the movie 'The Green Mile?') Unfortunately, there will always be a percentage of innocent convicted along with the guilty. And until we have a sure fire way of determining who's who... Would anyone want to have the medical torture of an innocent individual on their conscience? Or in reality, even a guilty one? I think not.

I don't believe anyone who posted to this thread intended to offend anyone. Different people have different life experiences. Some folks have lived through times and places that we cannot even begin to understand, if we don't have the benefit of shared experience. But Zorya is right, we are all interconnected. And what affects one affects all, whether that makes us comfortable, or not. 


jade  30 Jul 2002 
i would like to share with you all that i am soooo proud of everyone that has posted on this thread. you all shared your varied opinions without attacking the poster, which is the point of debating here on the forum.

*pats everyone on the back*

good job! and such excellent points made by all!

in light,
that moderating chick again,
jade :D 


mermaiden  06 Aug 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tarotphelia

I do think though, that women have the power to change the world overnight. If they will stop accepting the status quo. Stop accepting lies, making men the most important thing in your life, accepting the abuse of your children, being slaves to fashion & soap operas. Women are in the pink ghetto - their minds are Barbie-ized and they don't even realize it. Or they think that in order to "fix" their female-ness they must become like men. (My daughter call this "manopause.")

Someday, this will reach critical mass and fall too, but it may take longer than anything else because it is so deeply entrenched and women are fragmented - motivated mostly by the need for male approval, and not what they themselves need.


I don't know about some of you, but I see quite a bit of truth in this statement. Females have gone a long way for our rights but there are still so many things we have to do still! Why is it that we are cautious about fashion? It's all about sex appeal and looking good, and why do we feel we have to look good? So we mesh w/ the rest of society? So that we still feel like we are attractive? My question is why? Why do we feel like we need to look attractive? I have my own theory and it has to do w/primal instincts. It's all about attracting a mate and in a society that pressures people (many women) into having to look 'perfect' and barbie-ized (thanks for that phrase, Tarotphelia), I can see why Tarotphelia said we are accepting lies and are slaves to soap operas and fashion.

I mean, look at tv! One thing I learned from taking English media was that tv reflects our society, and when you look at the role of women in commercials, television, movies, etc., they may have speaking roles but it's all about sex appeal! This is what our society is saying: we can do things but at the same time, we have to obsess about our looks, and sure, it's nice to look good for both genders but do you not agree that this is more emphasized for women?
Let me personalize this a bit. I've been looking for a talent agent and when I finally got an interview, he asked me to redo my headshot. He's a nice guy so with honesty, he told me it's because people would be looking for sex appeal in my head shot so I would have to dress more 'club-like' whereas what I was wearing was dignified, modernized career-style clothing. So tell me why my body has to be shown off if a head shot is just supposed to display the face and shoulders? It's now getting to the point where actresses show 3/4 of their body in a 'head shot' while wearing clubbing/tight/kinda skimpy clothing. 


mermaiden  06 Aug 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by mermaiden


It's all about attracting a mate and in a society that pressures people (many women) into having to look 'perfect' and barbie-ized (thanks for that phrase, Tarotphelia), I can see why Tarotphelia said we are accepting lies and are slaves to soap operas and fashion.


Oops! Sorry, I meant '(mainly women)'. 


Laurel  06 Aug 2002 
With absolutely no disrepect to any poster, I don't think the average white upper-middle class college educated woman is particularly disempowered any more. Not when compared to say the average black or hispanic lower-class teenager/young adult of either gender.

Race, gender, class... its all a web. All the "isms" can't really be separated from one another. I'm apalled by the victim mentality in the United States, particularly in the upper middle class. We've spent years nursing our Inner Children back to health and blaming our poor decisions, or weaknesses, our fear on everyone but ourselves. Its high time for discovering our Inner Grown-ups and to pay a lot more attention to how our actions affect others rather than mewling about how external forces affect us. As a society, we've been so incredibly selfish and change can only take place when we all do a painful personal moral inventory- and start fixing the problems at the root. In ourselves.

Laurel 


lunalafey  06 Aug 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by DarkElectric
We are all interconnected. All life on this planet is. And we need to realise that we have the power to make effective change through the power of effective choice. I disagree that we should use prisoners for medical experiments. .... the justice system has been known to be terribly flawed, and many times innocent people are convicted of horrible crimes they didn't commit. ... until we have a sure fire way of determining who's who... Would anyone want to have the medical torture of an innocent individual on their conscience? Or in reality, even a guilty one? I think not.
Different people have different life experiences. Some folks have lived through times and places that we cannot even begin to understand


I did not go into any details of my inmate/medical idea, but it seems that it has been a bit misunderstood. It's just an idea, change starts with a new and different idea, and different views and experiences. Now as far as the inmate thing, OF COURSE the testing would NOT be done on those who have commited minor infractions. Inmates involved would be choosen on a case by case basis, the testing would be exclusivly for those that obviously did what they did. Yes, my life experiences have made me see things this way, and that way is this:
A man kills another man, that killer has taken away a resource from humanity, another human. The dead man now leaves behind a family that he was providing for. The dead man did nothing to bring about his fate, he is an innocent victim. Currently, the killer will go to prison, spend about 5 years and be out to do it again if he so chooses, in this time, what has he done to give BACK to humanity?..to that family?? NOTHING.
so take it from there, WHAT CAN the killer do to give back? you think he will CHOOSE to send half his paycheck to the family that he tore apart?(interconnected?)
Someone mentioned that prisons are ment to reform, some CANNOT be reformed,is anyone for turning Charles Manson loose?? EVER??? what is he doing there in prison? costing money and giving back nothing in return(interconnected?) There are those that DO have a pre-disposition to be violent and it has nothing to do with good or bad upbringing. I had $1,400 taken from me last year in taxes. With my income I am considered "poor" for me to save that much money it takes me about a year, and then the government takes it. Part of that feeds and houses murderers, and that 'M' word hits WAY to close to home for me. Get used to me and my HARDCORE ways, it pops out on rare occasions(but with out someone to stir some $#XT how are we gonna find other ways to solve anything?).....I truely am a gentle kind respectful soft hearted person, but if we are always soft, we are gonna get walked on.
SO, what about this? did you know that a MAN will go to prison for 3 to 7 years for killing his spouse, get's his teeth fixed while inside, yet a WOMAN kills her husband in self-defence and gets a life term, then dies from ovarian cancer because she did not get medical treatment......LET'S fix that one!!!! 


Mermaid  06 Aug 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by lunalafey

so take it from there, WHAT CAN the killer do to give back? you think he will CHOOSE to send half his paycheck to the family that he tore apart?(interconnected?)


Oooh, I like that idea, Luna! Let's make murderers give half their pay checks to the dependents of the people they murder, until they are no longer dependent (ie till they turn 20 years old, marry again etc.) Very restorative. 


jade  06 Aug 2002 
i think that many victims would see that as 'blood money' so perhaps instead creating a fund for those families and the murders have to 'donate' half or more of their pay to the fund. i know it's still the same, but it makes it less........well..........less like it's from the person who caused the pain.

in light,
jade 


The What Ideas do you think need to be changed in order to improve our society? thread was originally posted on 28 Jul 2002 in the Chat board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Chat, or read more archived threads.

 
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