what is an ideal prison.....in your opinon.

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 31 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

jade	31 Jul 2002
i think the title of the thread says it all. what, in your opinon, is an ideal prison. would you have different prisons for different types of offenders? would you allow phone and private family visits? how about visitors to the visiting room....personal contact or none? how about the prison store? weight lifting equipment? pool tables? tv? computers? a pool? a golf course (they have one in the prison nearby for the prisoners!)? horse's to ride (they have those here too)? etc etc etc what is your opinon? in light, jade

wavebreaker	31 Jul 2002
Hm, let me think... Very basic accommodation: just a bed, chair and table in the cells. As for facilities: a pool, golf course, horses sounds like too much luxury to me, so no to that. However, I do think it's important to give them something to do, otherwise they might get frustrated, aggressive etc. Fitness room, pool table, tv and a library would be ok. Also, I think they should work to pay back some of the costs of their imprisonment. It could be work in the kitchen or laundry room of the prison or some other job they could do in prison. Phone calls, visits and computers: only limited access. And they would have to pay for the phone calls and the computer access. I think it should also be possible for prisoners who behave well to do courses, to give them a chance to improve themselves and have a better chance to get a job when they come out again, and a smaller chance to get back into crime. They would have to pay for these courses themselves of course. I think it's also important to have some sort of program/therapy for the prisoners to make them realise what they did and to try and make them change. I think a prison sentence shouldn't just be about punishment, but also about reform, otherwise the prisoners wouldn't learn anything and go right back into crime when they come out. I must say that I have no idea what prisons are like in this country... And I'm not planning to find out either... ;)

RedWood	31 Jul 2002
I think they should have the basics..Bed, table, and chair...NO on the golf course, horses etc...They are in there for a reason...Yes I do think seperate facilitys for different crimes..Yes computer access but no internet..Library yes...Courses..yes they should have to pay something..Private visits I think is fair for good behavior..everyone needs some human contact..Excercise facilities yes..Pool no....yes they should be allowed outside..which most prisons allow...Computer hackers and pornography on the net..NO on computers in general...Child molestors..definately no child visitors...for any reason..I don't care how good they are...Psychiatry help yes...I think they should have gardens and things to help with the cost of it...Why not make crafts etc or whatever men like to do too..Have kind of like a prison sale? Phones yes on a limited access basis..

amyel	31 Jul 2002
I think that there should be different prisons for different kinds of offenders. There sorta is, but they all seem to "treat" prisioners the same way. All any of use really require is shelter and food/water to survive (and you might even debate the shelter, depending on where you live, I suppose). What I think prisons should strive to do is rehabilitate, when possible, but I do draw the line at some point. For example, should a first time burgler who has not physically threatened or hurt anyone in his/her burglery be subjected the same treatment as a serial murderer? I don't think so, but perhaps some do, and I can respect that. Perhaps some rehabilitation and education is in order for the burgler. Perhaps isoloation from society is the only effective way to deal with the serial murderer. And, as much as I don't like drug pushers, perhaps drug rehab is order here, too, in conjunction with some "time". In short, I don't think that isolating prisioners is the "only" effective way in which to deal with offenders.

Sorceress_Jade	31 Jul 2002
It really pisses me off that prisons have cable television and movies and the internet. Prison isn't supposed to be entertaining. Prisoners aren't supposed to have more crap like that then people on the outside. I don't care if they're bored, that's the punishment. Now, I don't have a problem with these items for learning purposes, but not for entertainment. Basektball I can deal with, but not tennis. Football yeah, but anything that requires much more than the freaking ball... that's OUR money, not theirs. I am in full support of chain gangs. Put them to work. Make them earn their keep. When I was punished as a child, at home and at school, my detention or grounding didn't consist of me sitting in front of a freaking tv I was put to work doing extra chores (some that didn't need doing) and other things. That's as it should be. Prison is punishment, it's not a country club. ~a little anger seeped out there, :S sorry bout that~

jade	31 Jul 2002
i have more time now so i'll answer my own question. i would like to see the prisons less lush. i know that the ones around here have alcohol for example for the prisoners. and i would not allow that. no 'yummy' foods, just the basics for health. ie: a couple of pieces of fruit, fresh veges and their meal. no chips, choc. bars etc. and no prison stores to buy them either. i would allow visits but no family visits in the little cottages for a couple of days. a bed, a desk and a chair. no tv in their room. no computers at all. typewriters could be available for the students though. a library with LOTS of books. courses, at their expense to enhance their education. an abundance of therapy. areas for them to grow and harvest their own food. jobs for them to do that would pay for their room and board while in prison. why should they get a free ride.....i don't. no video games but lots of other games like chess and checkers and decks of cards etc. absolutely no drugs and if they were caught with drugs they would be punished by being put into solitary for a bit. lots of outdoors time with a track for running. other than that, sit ups and push ups can give them the exercise that they need....they don't need to be 'super' strong. a day, once a month, where their family can come in and share a meal with them and spend some time with them.....for their (and their family's) mental health. ~~~ i would also like to see the prisons seperated. all the sex offenders in one together, all the murders in one together. and then the other offenders in together. not more prisons......just more organization. ~~~ in light, jade ps i know someone, who is in for murder and he has it really good actually. he gets to have junk food whenever he wants. he orders caviar for his christmas treat every year. they get a beer every saturday night. he spends lots of time with his mom and other visitors that come to visit....they can hug and kiss etc. he gets a brand new tennis racket whenever he wants......just needs to ask for one. he gets new shoes and clothes whenever he wants. he doesn't have to work if he doesn't want to and if he chooses not to work, then they pay him regardless so that he can still afford to buy stuff in the prison store. his hair cuts are free. and a couple of times a month the prison orders in chinese or KFC etc for them to treat them. this is a medium security prison and my friend murdered his wife and her parents in front of his 3 small children. and this is his "punishment". - no rent to pay, no bills to pay, he has a computer and lots of computer games (which is all he uses the computer for). and i am sitting here, raising my family and thru my tax money i pay his rent! IMO, not right at all. i have no problem paying for his kids therapy from my taxes but not his rent.

DarkElectric	31 Jul 2002
The kind of prison which would cut the rate of recidivism to zero. Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, I cannot possibly imagine what would encourage this. There are some people who just get off on being horribly cruel to other people. I don't know if a scary and dangerous attitude such as this is capable of rehabilitation.

zorya	31 Jul 2002
as to rehabilitation, i have seen television programs about having gardens in jail, and keeping cats as pets. these seem to help install a sense of nurturing, compassion, and accomplishment.

Liliana	31 Jul 2002
I agree totally with Jade, thats what I think prison should be like as well. None of this cable tv, and even worse internet where the can masquerade as something they arent. Its punishment, not a spa, and what exactly is a multiple murderer doing in a medium security prison, he belongs high security period. :THP

Kath	31 Jul 2002
Geez, by the sounds of some of these jails, it would encourage people to commit crimes to get into prison! One thing I would like to see : Sex offenders _not_ be given protective custody. In fact, scum who rape and molest defenceless children and women should have cell mates called Bubba who will see to it that they get what they deserve. It really angers me when violent criminals go to jail and get treated like celebrities with computers and games and microwave ovens. I agree with everyone else, prison should be a punishment, not a luxury holiday. Cheers Kath

RedWood	31 Jul 2002
From what I have heard..Atleast in womens prison..Child molestors or killers or abusers..Usually wont last 6 months before they are dead..

jade	31 Jul 2002
well, i don't know if i have a problem with that..............but........that's why i'ld like to see them in a prison on their own. then they can be with their own kind and perhaps, goddess willing, actually somehow reprogram their minds to not rape and abuse. (that's my hope anyways) in response to the person i know being in medium security with all the luxuries..........it was part of his plea agreement. he pled guilty and they sent him on vacation for 20 years. some people say his punishment is not seeing his kids but i know that his mom brings him in photos all the time (cause she still sees them weekly). and he CHOSE to murder their mother in front of them. (with the baby 11 months old in her arms and the 4 year old clutching her leg) so, because of this situation in my life, i don't have alot of sympathy for prisoners or alot of compassion for the current prison system here in canada. being a volunteer for the army is more difficult than being in prison for goodness sake. in light, jade

Mermaid	01 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by DarkElectric The kind of prison which would cut the rate of recidivism to zero. I absolutely agree. Though my sense of justice screams out for murderers, rapists and other violent offenders to be punished and punished good for their crimes, deep down I think I'd rather they were 'fixed' for good. So, in an ideal prison, I'd give each prisoner whatever they need to be 'fixed' ... (no matter whether that was regular family visits and a kitten to care for, or electric shock treatment and castration without anaesthetic, I don't care as long as it heals them for good....) Blessings

Kaz	01 Aug 2002
hmm, reading all these posts i think i choose the wrong way of life, looks like prison has more luxury than my own life LOL. nah.... i agree with most i have seen here, prison should be no vacation resort (though it seems like it), and indeed catagorize them and put them up with their fellow offenders. kaz

wavebreaker	01 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jade in response to the person i know being in medium security with all the luxuries..........it was part of his plea agreement. he pled guilty and they sent him on vacation for 20 years. Having heard this, I'd like to add: no plea bargaining. If they're guilty, they're guilty, they don't deserve better treatment just because they've admitted that they're guilty, it doesn't make their crime less severe... Also, some criminals will say anything to reduce their sentence, so they might end up accusing innocent people. Also: different treatment for recidivists and first-time offenders: first-time offenders get all the privileges I mentioned in my earlier post; if they're caught again, they get less privileges. And I wouldn't mix prisoners who've committed major crimes with those who've committed minor crimes; the major criminals should get less privileges anyway, but it would also be to prevent minor criminals from being influenced by major criminals.

jema	01 Aug 2002
i think they should be given good healthy food, meaningful work, a good library, recreation room and plenty of visits with the families. why? because our objective is to make these people go back into society and mistreating them will not do that. i am not saying they should have a swimming pool or horsebackriding as if it was a country club, but i don't think i ever heard of a prison who has that. family visits are so important. do we really wish to punish the children to these criminals too? if we do not let them see their families that is what we are doing. we are sending the message that these kids are bad and they do not deserve to see their fathers/mothers. also what better way to help a criminal to turn around and change then to have some good influence from their families. the only exception of course being men or women who abused their children. important thing here is that most people in jail are there not due to horrible child molestation but petty theft, drug related crimes and for beating up other hoodlums. do we really want to punish a guy stealing a bike with 25 years to life in a cell without anything but a bed and a toilet? so what does criminals need? the same things you and i need, the basic stuff, possibility to change encouragment to do so and a lot of compassion.

Liliana	01 Aug 2002
I think they should be able to see their family too, but none of this weekend visits in little cottages where they can have sex with their wife and such, if they wanted their wife they shouldnt of commited their crime And some people should NEVER see their kids, the person you know Jade is one of them. He murdered their mom in front of them! I cant see how the kids would even be able to handle seeing him again, even in 20 years, he murdered their mom but what he did to the kids is much luch worse, they have to live with that scene playing over and over again in their mind (thankfully the baby will likely forget, but the older ones no way) I doubt any amount of therapy will ever completely heal them. :THP

Laurel	01 Aug 2002
This was a really interesting thread to me. Everyone's answers made me thoughtful. I don't really have one of my own, because my feelings are very mixed. On one hand, I believe all human beings deserve a certain dignity and on the other hand, I believe existing prisons aren't doing anything to reduce recidivism, which is an extremely important thing for the justice system to do- more important, in fact than doling out punishment. I don't know what really ~would~ make things better, and not sure if there's a way to fix it without fixing some bigger issues first. Laurel

january	02 Aug 2002
As an Art Therapy student, I would love to have the opportunity to intern in a prison, a tough one like Riker's Island in NY. I am so fascinated by why people do what they do. Like Zorya stated, keeping gardens and nurturing pets can be a start to a path of compassion and a sense of someone other than Self. I don't believe prisoners should have fluffy amenities like bars, cable TV, vacations, etc. There needs to be some sort of goal established to foster good behavior, even if its "I can't wait to have a lobster, see a movie again, etc." Not to mention that these "amenities" put a strain on our economy. In some areas, inmates get better treatment than mental patients and elderly people. However, too brutal of an environment carries the potential for creating an even angrier, more agggresive person when released. In fact, guards who encourage fights and antagonize inmates should be punished. But therapy should be standard. However, there is a division between who can and cannot be helped. A pathological pedophile or rapist who feels guilty and has some sort of sense of right/wrong has a better chance of overcoming their compulsion than one who feels they're justified in actions which sate themselves but harm others. Nor do I beliieve in the death penalty - to me, its hipocritical. "You killed so-and-so, so now we're gonna kill you..." What punishment is death? Or is the anticipation of death in itself a punishment? I step off my soapbox..... ~ january

divinerguy	02 Aug 2002
This question depends on whether the purpose of prison is retribution or rehabilitation. If its retribution - then total isolation, with a hour per week of limited human contact. The person you release will probably end up as a raving, insane lunatic. If its rehabilitation - then it should include education concerning things that will help them be successful in that goal. Not just job training, but how to get along with people, and pay bills and all the other things that a regular person does each day. We don't do that.

purplelady	02 Aug 2002
Whew! A tough subject. I think that there's something wrong with the whole current (prison) system AND the society that perpetuates it. Of course, in an ideal or maybe more advanced society, there would not be nearly as many criminals nor the need for a the whole institutionalized prison system that grows bigger and bigger as the population does. It bothers me that there are way more black and minority men in prison than whites. (sorry folks I just don't know if I can say that any more politically correctly). But what is the reason for this? Are certain people more likely to commit criminal acts? Is it economic? History? OR is it the attitude of the judges and courts? It bothers me that I sense this whole thing is becoming more accepted , expected, and institutionalized in funny ways. For Instance , I was actually discussing a long distance phone plan with a customer service rep for my phone company and she mentioned they have a plan specifically to call prisoners! It's ...........AS Though society is saying , o.k. we Expect and predict this amount of low income men will be put in prison , this amount of minority men will go to prison (I'm not saying white people don't go to prison or commit crimes or anything but Percentage -wise there are Way more low income and minority people in prison). I also have some extreme views on the whole drug thing. I believe that all or most drugs should be legal. And legally regulated like alchohol. ToTally take the criminal element out of it! Get rid of "the drug war" ! It doesn't work! Take All the money we spend on : dea cops, prison for drug offenders, fighting drugs in other countries (doesn't work) court for drug offenders etc etc etc put ALL that money into effective research and drug rehabilitation to actually Help addicts. This would remove 1) the glamour factor for young people to do it and 2) black market. There was actually a t.v. news show on this very thing the other day titled something like "the drug war, does it work" (not the exact title but I forgot) with John Stossel. Yes, the show actually made some of the same exact points! I guess I just don't believe that throwing them All in prison is the best answer to the problum of crime. I don't know for sure what is the answer , what to do with violent and the non-violent criminals. I Can understand how you feel about "your friend" there jade. Maybe if society were perfect we could have "instant karma" and everyone who murdered, tortured, stole from , or terrorized someone else could have their instant karma handed to them! And is "an eye for an eye" even the right way to go? But society is far from perfect so where do we go from here?

purplelady	02 Aug 2002
PLUS the person who has been in prison for years and years suddenly gets out . And Then what happens? They have a really hard time renting an apartment and getting a job and even "being normal" on the outside so they are quite likely , statistically, to commit another crime and end up right back in the prison system, being supported by your tax dollars. SO the young guy who ended up in prison for selling some drugs may come out of prison years later much more of a criminal than when he went in! And then the whole system just perpetuates itself , and so on.

jade	02 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by purplelady It bothers me that there are way more black and minority men in prison than whites. (sorry folks I just don't know if I can say that any more politically correctly) perhaps in the USA but not here in Canada or other countries. Quote: I also have some extreme views on the whole drug thing. I believe that all or most drugs should be legal. And legally regulated like alchohol. i doubt if legalizing drugs would create less addicts. alcoholics create SUCH major disfunction in families everyday that, IMO, this would just create more havoc. but, i agree the war on drugs isn't working. in light, jade

VGimlet	02 Aug 2002
Everyone has had some good points, and I agree with you purplelady, about the racial disparity in the prison populations, and the war on drugs. :rolleyes: As far as the prisons themselves, have to agree - no frills in the cells. A bed, chair, table, bathroom. A library with books. Decent, but not fancy food. A place to go outside, and run, and a basic gym. Work unless they are sick; in a prison garden, or other prison facility (laundrey, kitchen, clean-up) or for the community, like training assistance animals, or being part of a "Scared Straight" program - or be in classes (at their own expense). IMO, unless the person wants to change, counseling is pretty useless. But I agree, have it available, along with free classes in things like anger management, parenting, job skills. Limited computer access, including internet (but limited to news, or educational sites). Family visits, but no weekends in a cottage (!) Separate the violent and non-violent offenders.

RedWood	03 Aug 2002
I think humiliation is the way to go..i know it sounds awful..but in some cases the judge will put the sentence that the person who stole from the store will have to be outside of the store for a day and hold up a sign saying "I stole from this store"..most people who had to do that..never did it again...along with other things.. I would like to state that I think the goverment knows what they are doing...They keep raising the taxes on cigs...It is now over 5 dollars a pack here in Michigan (i don't smoke)...When they dont raise taxes on alcohol which is much more dangerous then smoking...People are already have more break ins to get cigs..we have AA what about CA...cigs is a disease if alcohol is considered one..

Kismet	03 Aug 2002
I believe prisons should have nothing but a toilet, sink, and bed. The walls should be white, no TV, etc. I would say put them to work in some capacity on the premises to offset the costs of keeping them, after all it's in part our money keeping them there. I also believe they should receive counciling of some type on whatever crime it was they commited, behaviour modification, etc. I believe they should have access to speak with family only, and be allowed no other privleges, after all, what right did their vicitims have?

RedWood	03 Aug 2002
I would paint the walls light green..I heard that is a very soothing color...Keeps down hostility and aggression...

The what is an ideal prison.....in your opinon. thread was originally posted on 31 Jul 2002 in the Chat board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Chat, or read more archived threads.