How do you feel metaphysical "courses"?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Aug 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

the hermit	04 Aug 2002
After reading the thread about "course in miracles" I thought about other "courses" one sees or hears about in the world of metaphysics and the occult, particularly those found on-line. Such as B.O.T.A, various tarot, healing and magickal courses both free and fee based. How do you feel about them and the various certificates that are offered? What have you taken, and were you satisfied? Why or why not? Would you recommend any to others? Why or why not?

Minderwiz	04 Aug 2002
Well, I have and am taking courses, so here is my feelings. Firstly I wanted to learn more, firstly about Astrology, which I had tinkered with for twenty odd years without really getting anywhere. There are a number of professionally recognised institutions that offer courses but as I didn't intend at the time to become a professional I chose a recognised Distance Learning institution in the UK, the BSY Group. This institution is subject to public scrutiny and inspection. I took their Diploma in Astrology, which I have since passed. Currently I'm doing their Diploma in Applied Astrology and their Diploma in Tarot. I have checked their syllabus against some of the professional bodies and find that I am learning similar stuff. I've corresponded with professional Astrologers and I'm fairly sure that what I am learning is well directed and good stuff. My approach here may be academic - because that is my background - but I do cross reference their material to what I read and learn from other sources (including the great people on this site) and I repeat it has helped me enormously. I am not sure what weight to put on the Accreditation received, but at worst it is evidence of achievement in my hobby that I recognise and it has given me confidence in the discipline (and Astrology certainly is a discipline). At best it will give me entry onto a professionally recognised course. Astrology and, perhaps more so, Tarot make use of intuition and some degree of psychic skill (we all have innate psychic abilities). It is arguable that these can't be taught but I think they are also used in more traditional disciplines - Not enough credit is given to the intuitive leap that produces penicillin or solves a mathematical problem - however we don't say that mathematics should not be taught because many leaps were through insight. Clearly there will also be 'cowboy' operations that are there to take your money. Therefore there is some obligation to seek out the information you need to make a judgement. Finally I am not saying that all students of the Tarot or Astrology should do courses. Many have the developed abilities to read the cards intuitively from the start or can easily develop the skill. Others may spend hours with books but eventually reach the stage where they can throw the books away and trust themselves. Taking a course may help, if that's the way you learn best. Mindwerwiz

divinerguy	04 Aug 2002
The problem with instructional Tarot courses are that they are frequently taught by people without any formal pedagigical trainining. The training is flawed because it over emphasizes card meanings and mystery school theories, the mumbo-jumbo aspect of our craft. Another problem is that such education is the thing which is least capable of accurate measurement and assessment of achievement. My point is, allow people to develop their own dogma about the Tarot by taking elective courses, and limit required instruction to less mystical aspects of the Tarot. Here are some examples of possible courses: ...History and development of cartomancy and Tarot ...Historical figures in Tarot, e.g., Waite, Crowley, Case, Levi, etc. ...Comparative Analysis of Tarot Decks ...Psychology of the collective unconscious ...Discussion of ethical issues ...Interpersonal Communcations I'm sure there are other relevant areas of study. However, because we're dealing with metaphysical issues, I don't think we should try to excessively cloak the study of Tarot with academic legitimacy. It serves only to reinforce the public opinion of Tarot readers as being fakes and flakes. I think you need to stay away from Golden Dawn versus Kabbala versus BOTA versus Crowley versus Egyptian versus Gypsy, etc., etc., etc. Religion and other metaphysical disciplines usually don't try to justify their existence by via science and education. Those that try to do so find it necessary to establish dogmatic standards upon which to examine their students, that serve only to divide people into theological camps. My opinion - leave it as neutral as can be, and allow people to follow their own chosen dogma.

Minderwiz	04 Aug 2002
Yes, there is always a danger that those teaching are not qualified to teach and also as you say there are issues in terms of placing of emphasis and actually measuring achievement. I don't think that I, or anyone else who has chosen to do a course can demonstrate that it makes us better readers or more knowledgeable readers than those who haven't. My course obviously vulenrable to this criticism. As a teacher myself I'm reasonably happy that the structuring and delivery of material, together with feedback is appropriate (for me). The course has never prescribed card meanings as being correct - indeed it started by asking students to examine their cards, think about them and ask themselves what meaning they thought the card had before ever looking at a cook book meaning. It does see meanings as personal to the reader, though it does then go through what cards may mean in more detail. However it has always been stressed that if the student believes the card means something else from study material sources or other sources then they should go with what feels right for them. There is no attempt (yet) to discuss mystery school theories. Indeed there is a reasonble overlap with the suggested areas made above. The course is not prescriptive in any way in terms of meanings, spreads or positions. As an academic myself I like reading and I have learned from books on Tarot and yes I might take an academic slant to some of it - but that's me and the way I work. I still realise that there is something indefineable in the way we read - call it intuition, call it psychic ability - it's there and whilst it can't be directly taught it can come from personal reflection and meditation on the learning process. Now, again I don't claim this for all courses or say that courses are desirable for everyone Minderwiz

mara	04 Aug 2002
To me they are irrelevant, the reason (for myself) being that you are taking on another persons way of thinking (interpreting) and all that it is then is knowledge. Now I can hear heaps of you say "yes, but knowledge is power". The way I see it is that it can only become power (to your true self) when you use it for your own personal evolvement. There are so many people who use "metaphysical abilities" (to give it a name) to gain control over or impress or feel more important to and over other people and use it also to "get rich quick", but, sorry I'm getting sidetracked here, it is easy to tell these people from the real thing. Anyway (I'm just expressing some things I've come accross in the past, Sorry!) my personal experience is that I came in contact with the Tarot through a close relative about six years ago and got really curious....so I bought a pack of my own and some books to give me a general guideline and worked the rest out for myself. The way I see it is that the only person that can really do a reading for you is YOU, because only you know yourself better that anyone. And once you become familiar with things like the Tarot you get to know what it is about...You! I myself have experience it with different things e.g. astrology and numerology, but once I stopped learning the way someone was trying to teach me and started following my own way of doing things (mind you I have a thing about relating eveything to everythingelse) I started to understand things much better. But of course this is my way of doing things for myself and I know that everyone is different and that these "courses" are here for a reason. Anyway the thing I'm trying to get accross is that ( gee sometimes it's really hard to say something in writing) the choice is there for eveyone and only the experience of going through it can tell an individual if he or she needs it or not. I have to admitt though that a lot of the things I now know for myself to be true are things that I have read of heard as other peoples oppinions and then I apply them to my own way of thinking and way of doing things and if it feels right or works positively then I stick to it and if it doesn't then I let it go. The only way I learn from things like this is applying them to my eveyday life because that is what teaches me the most about myself. I hope I haven't made this too long because I don't know if I really got the point accross that I was going to say in the first place...but hey Thanks for letting me express myself anyway, I feel better now....DON'T STRESS - EXPRESS is what I always say, it always makes you feel better. Even when you feel fine to begin with :-)....Mara

jema	04 Aug 2002
well, i haven't taken any courses (yet) so i can't really say much about it. but i think they serve a purpose for those who seek them out. when it comes to tarot i have looked through quite a few sites offering classes for a fee and in the end giving you some kind of certificate. now that i am just not sure about. i do not strive for a title or a diploma or anything like that. and even if i did i am just not sure who would be in the right to give me one either. the ATA? perhaps if you are american and will work as a pro in the states. i recently signed up for the B.O.T.A but have not yet started. i did so because i liked what i have read about them so far and i think it will be a journey for me to try it out - test new waters, add a little structure to my tarot studies while at the same time keeping my own counsel. i wouldn't say that everyone should stay away from all the mysterieschools. i think they might serve a purpose for the right person. what is important is to keep being curious. question things. always try to find out what You think about something before subscribing to someone elses viewpoint. there are a lot of really grand courses on the net. if anyone finds a free (or really cheap) on-line course about medicinal herbs - let me know. oh and somehow i never really considered the "course in miracles" to really be a course - i always figured that was more like a religion in itself. but i guess depending on how you see it - the greer book Tarot for yourself is also a course. as is any bok with exercises...

Minderwiz	04 Aug 2002
Again I don't disagree with much of what you say. When I have posted above I was not being prescriptive for everyone. I speak from my own experience but do not generalise. When every you learn something it is likely that you start from the way someone else has done it - whether its learning to drive, learning maths, or learning to cook apple pie. What distinguishes the good student from the rest is that they can go beyond this - they can improve, revise, fine tune, synthesise, etc. Or to put it into a nutshell they add something of themselves to what they have learned to create something new. To ignore teachers, even if you don't agree with them is a dangerous action, not because you may be wrong but because you might delay yourself reaching the same conclusions by having to reason/experience everything from scratch. You started with a pack and some books and worked from there - The pack was designed by someone else, the books were written by someone else but you added something of yourself to them by putting your own self into your readings. A good course is one that helps you do this in a more structured way (if you want that structure in the learning process) a bad course is one that says when you get the Emperor then you must interpret it this way. Ot you must practice these rituals. You are very right to say that experience of doing it is necessary, courses and books may stimulate but skill and depth of knowledge comes from practice. Indeed reading the views of several authors and looking at many web sites shows that there is no 'correct' view and that knowledge in turn forces you to ask the question 'what works for me?' Minderwiz

Minderwiz	04 Aug 2002
Sorry the above post was supposed to follow Mara's so it doesn't make much sense if you don't know that My own fault for being long winded Minderwiz

jade	04 Aug 2002
i've only taken courses IRL and i liked them. i got alot out of them, but that was mainly because i was meeting like-minded individuals and when we did the group meditations etc......the energy was sooo amazing having everyone in the room together. so i'm not much help. sorry, jade

Laurel	04 Aug 2002
I'm of a mixed opinion regarding courses. Its all a matter of how you personally best aquire knowledge and information. I personally like a combination; taking a course to supplement my own research and study because I often find that instruction opens me up to knew ideas that I'd never heard about or thought about. There's always the risk of becoming an occultnik, however; someone who's sense of self-worth is based on how many books they own, classes they've taken, certificates they've collected, authors they've befriended, etc. Its like being a metaphysical groupie! :) Self-Moderation and discernment are the key to everything. Laurel

the hermit	04 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy The training is flawed because it over emphasizes card meanings and mystery school theories, the mumbo-jumbo aspect of our craft. Another problem is that such education is the thing which is least capable of accurate measurement and assessment of achievement. But isn't this really true of any "education"? The student is always asked to regurgitate what it is the "instructor" believes is pertinent. Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy My point is, allow people to develop their own dogma about the Tarot by taking elective courses, and limit required instruction to less mystical aspects of the Tarot. I agree… and find that most people do this with any “education” anyway. I “spouted” learned information as required, but formed my own opinions concerning what I believe is important. Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy However, because we're dealing with metaphysical issues, I don't think we should try to excessively cloak the study of Tarot with academic legitimacy. It serves only to reinforce the public opinion of Tarot readers as being fakes and flakes. I understand your point. But really feel that “public opinion” places way too much value on “academic legitimacy” in all areas. For instance, in the areas of psychology and psychiatry (I’m not trying to dispute the legitimacy of these fields) there are dozens of “schools of approach” with substantial disagreement as to proper methods of “treatment” for any “condition” (and is that condition REALLY a condition?). In all of the “hard sciences” such as my own field of geology, there is a lot more “discussion” (read argument :D) going on about basic issues--such as carbon dating, fossilization, structural development (how did that particular rock get there? And when?), as well as volcanism (why did that volcano erupt at just that moment? And why didn’t we know it would?), than the public is aware of. Last year’s educational ideas are no long valid and are now superceded by this year’s newest theories. That sheepskin doesn't make you smarter or more right. It just means you regurgitated their ideas correctly and passed their tests. Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy I think you need to stay away from Golden Dawn versus Kabbala versus BOTA versus Crowley versus Egyptian versus Gypsy, etc., etc., etc. But knowledge is what allows you to form opinions. If you don’t understand their “view” how can you decide if it might or might not be valid? Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy Religion and other metaphysical disciplines usually don't try to justify their existence by via science and education. Those that try to do so find it necessary to establish dogmatic standards upon which to examine their students, that serve only to divide people into theological camps. Unfortunately that's exactly what does happen. There are too many seminaries and theology schools out there who do exact that. Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy My opinion - leave it as neutral as can be, and allow people to follow their own chosen dogma. I agree with you on this, but would argue that education is how one does this. I don’t advocate any particular approach, just think that you might be throwing out the baby with the bath water by ignoring the possibility that there may be useful “courses” of study out there.

the hermit	04 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Laurel There's always the risk of becoming an occultnik, however; someone who's sense of self-worth is based on how many books they own, classes they've taken, certificates they've collected, authors they've befriended, etc. Its like being a metaphysical groupie! :) Sounds just like university departmental hierarchy to me, just add "papers they've published" :D

Minderwiz	04 Aug 2002
Any education which reduces to regurgitating information that is fed in is not worth a damn. You can do that with a computer or a monkey. If education is to have any value at all then the person being educated must add something of themselves to the process - this might be in modifying , reinterpreting, rejecting, or some other response (and I don't mean just or mainly behavioural response). I agree with the points about psychiatry and psychology, there's a very good critique of their 'scientific' status by Stephen Arroyo who as well as being an Astrologer is also a qualified psychologist and counsellor. However this does not make academic referencing useless or a waste of energy. If we don't attempt some form of such referencing then we are continually reinventing everything for ourselves - this can be fun in itself but it might take valuable time from pushing our knowledge further ahead. I'm not suggesting that Tarot (or Astrology) should try and make itself respectable by putting forward testable hypotheses - I know that neither are (or should be ) scientific in that sense. However sharing our knowledge helps us all. This website is testimony to that. Minderwiz

the hermit	04 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz Any education which reduces to regurgitating information that is fed in is not worth a damn. I agree... unfortunately all too often that's what results from the "education system" both here in the u.s. of a. and elsewhere. Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz this does not make academic referencing useless or a waste of energy. If we don't attempt some form of such referencing then we are continually reinventing everything for ourselves - this can be fun in itself but it might take valuable time from pushing our knowledge further ahead. Well spoken! Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz I'm not suggesting that Tarot (or Astrology) should try and make itself respectable by putting forward testable hypotheses I agree. At the same time there are both worthwhile and perhaps not so worthwhile teachers and one must explore their ideas and decide which are which. Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz However sharing our knowledge helps us all. This website is testimony to that. That is what "education" is all about for me and this website IS great testimony to that!

The How do you feel metaphysical "courses"? thread was originally posted on 04 Aug 2002 in the Chat board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Chat, or read more archived threads.