moral/ethical dilema....needs your opinion!

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 28 Aug 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

jade	28 Aug 2002
hi all, okay, we are having a problem at our home and i want everyone's opinon on this.......okay? here it is. we recently bought a new (used) home (yippee) and we've been living here for three months. the woman who lived here before has 2 cats. one of them is extremely pissed off because they moved. EXTREMELY PISSED OFF!!!!! he walks in front of her and pees on the living room rug,.....takes poos.....right there in front of her face! (isn't he trying to get a message across to her!!!) he's also coming over here.....to his old home (he's moved 4 blocks away...very small town, not a big stretch here for him to come and visit). we see him in the back yard alot. and we find him in the house too! not a problem. or is it? he's peeing and pooing on my dining room rug.....which is where he peed and pood when he lived here (not in a litter box, on the rug). the carpet is very stained from his pee. i cleaned the carpet and got out all the stains and couldn't figure out why there were more stains and it smelled (my cats don't pee on my carpet, if they are upset, they pee on my bed!!! yuck) anyway, i just thought i wasn't getting the smell out. well the other morning i get up (after hearing a kitty ruckus in the living room) to fresh pee and poo. i found more this morning. my cats chase her cat out of the house whenever he's in here......that's how i know when he's here cause i hear a ruckus, look outside and see him come flying out the cat door. a neighbour who works for the old owner, let her know and she didn't really care about this problem. so..................what would you do? we have closed the cat door for now, but when we close our cats in then they start peeing on my bed to tell me to open the friggin' door or window. so if i leave the cat door closed..............my cats will retaliate. what do i do? do i take her cat to the spca the next time he comes here? (this woman is a real b**ch......with a capital B.............so i doubt strongly that talking to her will make any difference) feeling trapped........ jade stuck in between a rock and a smelly spot.

lunalafey	28 Aug 2002
arm yourself with a squirt gun with a combination of water and vinegar. Anytime the cat comes anywhere close to your home....SPRAY HIM!!!!! he will get the picture. you can use a bit of vinegar to eliminate the pissy odor too. Like a bigger cat covering the little cats claim. Try this first......before more hardcore tactics.

DarkElectric	28 Aug 2002
Lunalafey's suggestion was really great. You might want to try that, and if he doesn't get the idea permanently, you may actually be doing him a favour by allowing the SPCA to "relocate" him... Is it wall to wall carpeting? you could also consider sending the rug out to have it cleaned, and send the bill to her, with an explanation, and a reccommendation to control her cat, but if she's as callous as you say, you might not get anywhere. Relocation might be necessary.

zorya	28 Aug 2002
after attempting to talk to her, take photos of her cat when it gets in, also take photos of the stains and poop, in case you need to take this to small claims court. send her a bill for carpet cleaning each time it pees or poops in your house, also, keep copies of the bills for small claims.

Liliana	28 Aug 2002
I was going to say sue her, sounds like one Judge Judy would love hehe. And she deserves to have the cat taken, shes not a responsible pet owner to let her cat pee and ppop on the carpet without a litterbox while she lived there anyway THP

amyel	28 Aug 2002
Dear Jade, I don't really know what to advise about ensuring the cat doesn't come in anymore. Our cat does a similar thing except she prefers hard surfaces - the previous owners had a dog, but I've often wondered about ex cat's, too. It's our rabbit who pees on our bed. Anyway, I've tried vinegar, and it doesn't work. Try something called "Nature's Miracle". There are lots of good bio products out there that actually work better then vinegar. I think you may have no alternative but to send the cat's owners a bill. I understand you live in a small town, and she's a B, but this is not acceptable! You know if the situtation were reversed she would not hestitate to treat you the same! Did the woman own or rent the house before you bought it? The point is, YOU OWN IT NOW! Therefore, your rights in this situation superceded hers. You *are* strong - don't be afraid to stand up for yourself in this situation!

purplelady	28 Aug 2002
Hi jade! I used to have a cat who peed on my bed and floor etc, but ONLY when she was in heat. I learned to lock her out of all the bedrooms when she was in heat. Otherwise , my cat (then) and my new cat ONLY go in the litter box. She don't go outside as I have an apartment and don't let her out. IF I were the kitty psychiatrist, I'd say the offending cat needs A LOT of Love and encouragement and positive reinforcement in getting used to her New home. She needs to get the message that the new home is home. I don't know if that's possible for you to have anything to do with at all since the previous owner doesn't cooperate. You could set up some very conspicuous litter boxes in or near the living room and when you catch the cat doing his business on your rug, you could use whatever discipline you think fit to teach him to use the litter box even if he isn't your cat!! Cats Like the feel of the sand or litter , so it may work! Also , cats male OR female will sometimes pee to "mark their territory". It may be this cat's way of saying " This is MY territory". That leads me back to somehow trying to teach , retrain, or get the cat to accept his "new territory" (his new house). He could be feeling super confused because a move is a scary change AND he can easily get to the old house. So maybe there's a bit of a lack of understanding. Good Luck!

Umbrae	28 Aug 2002
I figure, defective unit. Return it to the manufacturer. Or use a squitgun filled with Amonia.

DollChica	28 Aug 2002
Or you could just keep the cat. Put bowls of food in the places where it goes potty since they will not eat and poop in the same place and give it positive re-inforcement. The problem will probably be gone in no more than a week.

purplelady	28 Aug 2002
Dollchica- I was thinking the same thing!!!

midnightmerry	28 Aug 2002
Jade, if keeping this cat is not an option (and I got the impression your cats were not happy with the intrusions), then I agree with whoever said to take PHOTOS as proof that your home is being invaded. Catch the cat coming in, relieving himself on your carpet and when he leaves. I would also suggest you send this woman a certified letter asking her to control her cat. Make the letter very polite but direct. You'll need this as proof that you did try to reach this woman in a civil way if you indeed end up taking her to court for your cleaning bills.

jade	28 Aug 2002
yes i have wall to wall carpet and i have my own carpet cleaner so i'm doing the cleaning. yes i'm using natures miracle already. i'm working on getting the smell out and the stains. (loads of old smells still though :( ) i am more concerned with this cat NEVER leaving us alone. my hubby wants to take it to the spca. my friends have suggested the same. i'm going to do a banishing spell on it tonight and see if that helps the situation...............otherwise i think that relocating the cat may be the only answer. personally, if it was my cat and i couldn't get it to stop doing damage to someone else's home........i'ld relocate it. as much as i loved the cat, i wouldn't let another person's home be damaged by my pet. but that's me. this is her. :( thanks for all your suggestions...........i will attempt them all........... i wouldn't bother going to court with this. it won't solve the problem after all and that's what i want......is the problem solved. :P spellwork here i come................................................jade

Phoenix	28 Aug 2002
Jade, I would at least do as the others said, and write a direct, non-confrontational letter, before taking the cat to the SPCA. At least if that b*tch(as you said so yourself) decides to do something after you take the cat to the SPCA, you can at least say that you tried asking her politely, and she did nothing. Does that make sense???

midnightmerry	28 Aug 2002
I have to agree with Phoenix, Jade. I would still say take some pics & write that letter because if you do end up having to relocate this cat, the owner sounds just b****y enough to sue you or worse, charge you with theft. The pics & letter will be for your own protection. But do try the spellwork; it may help.

SharonElizabeth	28 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jade i wouldn't bother going to court with this. it won't solve the problem after all and that's what i want......is the problem solved. :P Don't completely leave this out of the realm of possibility. Start documenting the visits by writing down when you see the cat and take pictures of what the cat has left behind. Definately talk to this lady, bring your evidence and tell her if she does not do anything about the problem you will be contacting animal control. Perhaps you should just contact animal control right away, they won't be able to take the cat away most likely but they can issue the woman a ticket for failing to control her pet. She will have to appear in court, you will not (unless you want to be there to make sure she shows up). If you contact animal control they may be able to just simply give you some ideas as to how to take care of it, before any real action is taken care of. You most definately have to start documenting what is going on and contact the owner to let her know what is going on. And I'd suggest getting rid of the rug, animals tend to go where they can smell that they've gone before. No amount of nature's miracle or vinagar will get rid of the smell. I wish you luck, I've had some experience with neighbors who don't care about what their pets do, and what I've talked about it a good way to start the ball rolling. You may never have to go as far as small claims court, just showing her that you mean business may make her get her act (and her cat) together.

truthsayer	29 Aug 2002
there's are very good suggestions here. the only things i can offer different is this: i would do a shamanic journey and ask my guides whether spirit or animal to come with me to intermediate w/ this woman's higher power and/or guides. send her love and understanding. tell them/her about what's happening, you want to do what's best and in the highest good for all involved. you have no desire to create a chain of karma and you'd like a solution that resolves any karma involved.the walk her to the large hand of the creative unconscious to take care of her so you can let her go and she'll transform to better place from this interaction. you can also talk to the cat's higher power. i've tried it and i think it helps. you just have to think in pictures and try to see the cat's perspective. i know this sounds crazy but...what have you got to lose? i've had very good results w/ this technique. light a candle and wish her love and peace. angry people are usually afraid of something or overwhelmed somehow by life. underneath is a wounded human being who lashes out by being bitch and uncaring toward her cat. being bitchy is a great way to keep people from bothering you. it's a game more than likely. if you can see the inner child thru her anger then you'll be able to reach her when you finally go face to face. after i'd done this mental preparation, i wouldn't start contact w/ her in a confrontation way by showing her pictures, dates, etc. of what the cat has done. you will automatically put her into a defensive attack mode. if you don't start in an offensive way then she may not see this as a personal attack. i might go to her house w/ some fresh cut flowers or fresh baked cookies. tell her how much you are enjoying the house. i would talk to her in "I" messages not "you" messages when i talked to her. after some small talk, i'd say "i must be going..." take a step as if to leave and then remark, "did you know *****(cat's name) is still coming to the house. is there anything we can do to help ***** thru this transition?" if she's doesn't appear too concerned, then start gathering evidence so that if you take the cat to the spca you'll have ammo to protect yourself. this boils down to,"don't start a fight w/ a yard dog. a yard dog knows more about fighting than you do and you'll end up the one hurt. meet her adult to adult in the tactic you know. even if she gets upset, keep your voice soft and calm. stay centered. she may be frustrated herself. when ppl expect you to act like a bitch, you don't want to disappoint them. if someone treats you differently than that throws you off in how to respond and behave. i don't advise fighting fire w/ fire unless it's a last resort. oddly, in my work in animal rescue and friends in the human society, it seems that pet owners who are the most abusive tend to be the most "possessive" about someone messing w/ something that belongs to them. it doesn't matter to the pet lives or dies, what's important is the principal of the matter. that is you are interfering in their life, taking their property. whether or not their behavior is offensive doesn't cross their mind. this person will see you as the aggressor and s/he was only defending their rights. i'd start small and work up to spca being the last resort. you could put a piece of plastic over the carpet to protect it until the issue is resolved. showing the cat some kindness if you can see it before your "watch cats" chase it off. kitty just might be expressing any number of things. it could have a urinary tract infection or sick in someway and is trying desparately to communicate it is in misery. i have often found that behavior aberrations w/ my cats is more often a health problem than a psychological one. my bet is this behavior is a cry for help. the owner won't help where she lives now so the cat knows it once felt safe in that house so it only knows to go back and relay the same message. cats are extremely easy to litterbox change. they usually get it after just one or 2 demonstrations. put each in the box. take the front paws and dig a moment then let kitty go. yes, changing it is yucky but your cats might could be trained temporarily to use it so you can keep the pet door closed. another concern is if this owner isn't caring and vaccinating her cat then your cats may be at risk for contacting a disease. anyhow, i thought of more than i intended so i'll stop now.

jade	29 Aug 2002
truth, you speak it............truth that is. and wisdom :D i don't plan on taking the cat to the spca, i want to attempt more magical things first. i often speak to animals during heals and when i have problems with my own cats so this shouldn't be difficult. i really like you idea of meeting her on a spiritual level............excellent idea! i've made notes and i'll start working on it tonight. thanks :D jade

jade	29 Aug 2002
well, i just finished performing a banish with love spell. i asked that whatever the stress and unhappiness of both the cat and his person.....that the goddess assist them with light and guidance and healing as well. that the behaviour is banished but not the cat, he is always welcome here, just not the peeing. it was a beautiful spell....cast under the stars :) thank you all, for allowing me to vent and get out my anger so that i could, with a clear heart and true intention, cast this spell. i sooo appreciate you all. love jade

Mermaid	29 Aug 2002
I hope the spell works for you, Jade. If not please try to keep in mind that the cat probably isn't behaving badly to annoy you, but because he's confused or scared by the move. One thing I'd suggest trying (if all else fails ;)) is to put a litter box back where he used to have one (on the dining room rug). Give him a few days to get used to using it again. Then, over the next few weeks, gradually move the box closer and closer to the cat door... until eventually it's outside. I don't know if that will work for you, but I've used it before to persuade my cats to use the toilet in a different part of the house. They get stressed and upset if you move their toilet all of a sudden, but if you do it sneakily over a week or two they don't seem to notice at all. Then, when you've got the cat using the litter box outside, he hopefully won't want to come inside and poo on your rug! Good luck!

jade	29 Aug 2002
mermaid, normally i think that would work. but his using my dining room as a toilet is not a thing of confusion. he sits in front of his owner in their new home and poops right there, looking at her! definitely a kitty with an attitude!!! he used this dining room when she lived here to 'give her ****' and tell her that 'he's pissed off'........so he's just continueing with that same behaviour. i did a banish with love spell, asking for his behaviour, stress and confusion to be healed and replaced with love........i asked for the owners stress to also be removed and replaced with love. i will perform the spell for three nights, keeping the cat door closed all three nights and spreading the ashes of the spellpaper in front of the cat door. after that, i will see what happens next. it is.............in the hands of the Goddess. in light, jade :)

DarkElectric	29 Aug 2002
Are you familiar with a cleaning solution called "Simple Green"? It is a chlorophyll based cleaner (hence the green!) which is very effective as far as removing odor and pet stains. Since it is the natural compound which makes leaves green, it smells very fresh, and I have used it successfully to deodorize pet smells. I had a Daschund who refused to be house trained. I ended up relocating him very quickly to a lady with a big yard and two kids to run and play with him. He did a considerable bit of elimination damage in the meantime, and my carpet is wall to wall too. Simple Green. May take a few go overs, but I recommend it. (safe around kids and other pets too.) Just dilute it a bit. I don't know what colour your carpet is, but the stuff is green. I've never had a problem with discolouration, but I suggest diluting it if you decide to try it.

jade	29 Aug 2002
thanks ;)

truthsayer	29 Aug 2002
jade, i'm pleased that my words were of value to you. i like the sounds of the ritual you are doing. i might do the same for the neighbor's dog who keeps breaking lose and jumping the fence to our yard. it wouldn't bother that much but it's a pit bull and it's charged at me before. i'm also concerned if one of my cats should get out of the house by accident. gotta protect my babies! then there's the matter of enormous poop in my rose garden... ;) please keep us updated to how things are going. i'm sending an extra dose of light to help you out. (((((((((jade)))))))))))

starr	30 Aug 2002
Adopt the cat or take it for a ride to a different town or neighborhood and place it in a yard with kids. Starr

Laurel	30 Aug 2002
Hopefully the banishing in coordination with the other things you've already been doing will work. I'd give the banishing 7 days. If that doesn't help.... Keep a camera on hand. Take a picture of the cat inside your house and date it each time it happens. When you take the cat to the pound the first time, inform its owner and warn them that if it happens again, the cat inside your house, you will not notify them the second time you take the "stray" to the kitty authorities. You won't make any friends this way- but you will get results. Laurel

VGimlet	31 Aug 2002
I agree, this cat may be sick, or in a home with too many other cats. Another suggestion, if you can find it, is PDQ odor remover, they sell it here at Fred Meyer in the pet section. It even took the fragrant smell of male cat pee out of a futon matress after a couple applications. (YUM!). And another suggestion - if you have a source, you could borrow a dog for a week or two. (Amazing how the neighbor cats stopped coming inside for a snack when Suzy greeted them at the cat door...even though she loves cats, LOL.)

jade	31 Aug 2002
i have two dogs! heehee doesn't stop him at all. but i've finished my three nights of banishing spellwork so let's see what happens now. it's in the goddess' hands. love jade

The moral/ethical dilema....needs your opinion! thread was originally posted on 28 Aug 2002 in the Chat board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Chat, or read more archived threads.