~ Should women be conscripted if men had to be?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Sep 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

kayne	20 Sep 2002
At the moment there is some debate going on in our parliment about whether or not women should be allowed to fight in a war on the front line if they chose to be there. This got me thinking about if there was a war and, like the Vietnam war, the government was forced to conscipt people to go and fight in it. Women and men are supposed to be considered equals, this is what women's liberation has been fighting for and, depending on your point of view, has succeeded in achieving. So... should women be treated as equals when it comes to conscription?

floracove	20 Sep 2002
Is conscription, a chose or like the draft? If it is a chose, sure fine by me but if it is draft with no chose, I am not sure what I think of that at the moment...

RedWood	20 Sep 2002
I know over here in the U.S. women can join if they want to..and if it concerns equality..yes women should be drafted also..we want equality we should get it....I have thought of if I ever got drafted if I would go..The Answer is YES...I would not fight for the goverment..but more for the people...These men and women who choose to go...Know that they are fighting for their country and could die..get radiation etc...I don't feel it is fair of me..to say gee no I dont want to go and run....They fight for us and I would fight for them...If a person chooses to leave so they dont have to go..I dont disrespect them for it..Each way is a very hard choice..

floracove	20 Sep 2002
I guess I would rather make love than war!

kayne	20 Sep 2002
That's right Floracove, being conscripted is the same as a draft. (I forgot that's what they call it in the US, sorry.) In Australia during Vietnam, men were conscipted by a lotto type situation where a birthday was pulled out of a hat and (as far as I understand from what my mum has told me) if your birthday came up, you had to go.

pentunen	21 Sep 2002
While I really wouldn't like to have to go fight a war, in all fairness, if men get conscripted, women should too. I guess if we women want equality, we should be prepared to be treated equally in *all* things, not just in areas we choose. - LittleCub, donning her flame-proof suit just in case ;)

jema	21 Sep 2002
i am with floracove on this one. make love not war:) there are a few reasons why women are not drafted. the risk of getting raped is sadly one of them, somehow men don't really rape other men as often as they rape women. in war we are not equal. we have seen this in europe in the 90:ies. the men are given "clean" kills - a bullet in the head. the women and gathered up and raped until they do a wrong move and get beaten to death. some women who survived in former jugoslavia speaks about being raped by up to 35 men every night for weeks. the children born from this were often killed by their mothers, they just could not face them and relive the horror. often war is more cruel for women. if they invent a "fair" war i wouldn't mind seeing equality in drafting. during the second world war and to some extent the first - it was women who kept the countries going during the war. they manned the factories and took care of the homes. why is this not regarded as equally important? there are countries where women do get drafted though -Israel comes to mind.

Marion	21 Sep 2002
I am with Jema and floracove here. Equal contribution does not mean contributing in the same way. Women need to give equally to a war effort, and jema is right. During wars women do give, and it is a price as bitter as one that men pay. I also agree that women are treated with more brutality than men in a situation without order or law.

RedWood	21 Sep 2002
Very good point Jema and Marion...Women do their parts during the war...Sadly enough even after the 2nd war..Women were expected to go back to there homemaking and forget what they did...I would love if women contributing to the war was staying at home and doing their part..they do it anyway...I agree it would be nice not to have to be drafted but women do fight for the right for equality..........

Liliana	21 Sep 2002
Tho I wouldnt like it, yes women should be eligble for draft too. Its only fair. :THP

blue_fusion	21 Sep 2002
i believe that women should also be required to be drafted. not to sound negative or anything, but equal rights should also mean equal responsibilites.

Diana	21 Sep 2002
I could not bear the idea of a mother being sent to to war to kill and/or to be killed. God know, fathers are important to their children. Vitally important. My son has a father, too. But mothers have that unique link to their children due to the 9 months, and the bonding that occurs at childhood. (I'm not talking about love here - fathers and mothers love their children equally.) But I just cannot imagine a mother of a small child being told "Now you go to war and leave your little one to fend for himself. We can always put him in an orphanage, if there is no-one else to look after him while you're away. And if you get killed, well, we'll send him a telegram." My mother joined the British army during WWII (although she was Swiss and therefore from a neutral country, she felt it was her duty to fight the Nazis.) But she was not yet a mother.

truthsayer	21 Sep 2002
i have mixed feelings about women being drafted. yes, i think women should contribute to the war effort. it's being on the front line that bothers me. i can see myself working behind the scenes doing paperwork and tended the sick or wounded. i cannot ever see myself killing another human being for any reason. my husband is retired army. my brother is an army medic. i have a grandfather and uncle who served in WWII. my family has a heritage of facing responsibility in time of war. i want to contribute but i believe i would be one of the world's worst soldiers. i hate orderliness. i get passive aggressive if i feel like i'm being bullied by authoruty figures. one of my fears is that if i were ever attacked would i would be willing to injure the attacker in order to save myself? i have such a strong nurture instinct towards others that it goes against my nature to harm even if i'm being harmed. i have read about what happened to the women in yugoslavia. i would consider an experience like that unbearable and would likely suicide. i hadnot heard about the infanticide but i'm not surprized. i have a relative who told me he raped women during WWII. that information was stunning and shameful to me. i've asked other vets from that time about it but it's like i run into a brotherhood of secrecy. the best i can get is that commanding officers wouldn't allow things like that to happen. well, even a parent can't be there every minute. empathically, i knew he was telling the truth and somehow i could intuit the horror of those women. this experience alone decides for me that for myself i could not fight on the front line but i am a partriot and would contribute to the survival of us all. isn't there what's called a conscientious objector? i think men can sign for this when drafted to avoid being on the frontline. if a woman doesn't have it w/in to fight, she could take this as an option and still be drafted and contribute to war efforts. there are women that could handle the brutal parts of war b/c mentally they can compartmentalize the things that happen. they disengage emotion and do what they have to do objectively. not all men are mentally prepared to fight either. so a draft to even out the women and men who are capable of fighting vs. those that aren't. did i make a bit of sense?

emily2otters	21 Sep 2002
i'm opposed to conscription in general, so it's difficult for me to form an opinion on conscription of women. women are a long way from being equal to men (in terms of money, power, health care, social security benefits, etc.) in the US, and i think it would be premature to even think about _thinking_ about drafting them into military service to somehow "complete" the equality picture.

Violet Gargoyle	21 Sep 2002
The US does allow women to join the military in nearly every department now, but they are just in the last 5-10 years allowing them to just train for the "elite" teams like Fighter Pilots, I am not sure that they have yet to allow a woman to train as a Navy SEAL. Just allowing women into previously all male military schools was a big to-do here. To my knowledge, U.S. women are still not allowed to serve in actual combat areas at all, barring medically and sometimes computer or architectually related tasks. (Heading up and running or building hospitals, or makeshift bases , or being on a ship in combat is about as far as is allowed). Seems that there is still the Florence Nightengale idea floating about that cleaning up after a war is okay, but not to fight. However, history is shown to have women who have fought in wars posing as men. It's pretty impossible now, but in the era of the US Civil War, The Revolutionary War, and rumors to other wars like the Crimean War and practically any other war prior to the 1900s and a few afterwards- there have been women who have gone to great lengths to serve in combat. Also, it seems that the US is more worried right now about sexual preferance rather than gender, with all the controversy about gay people serving in the military. I still think is a very discriminitory treatment of any person who wants to serve their country just like anyone else who doesn't fit the physical profile of the perfect soldier. Strange that the idea of gay people being a supposed detriment to their squadron has only come up in the last 50-60 years or so. I myself am in an "all or nothing" mind. I don't like the draft or conscription at all, regardless of gender or preferance. I always believed that if thought was put past an old-school physical picture of a perfect soldier, and tolerance was taught as part of your training, then there would be enough volunteers of BOTH genders and all orientations to train in battle, rather than having to try to force the ones who dont feel that it is their path to get involved in combat. Let those who want peace, have peace. Perhaps this is an over optimistic view of modern warfare. Alas, since the old systems are still in place.....the debate goes on. I grew up in a military family (2 grandfathers and one Great Grandfather serving in WWII, an Uncle in Vietnam, my father serving in the Air Force for 20 years) I was denied going into the military myself when they discovered I had a heart murmur that was louder than they thought, but I was all ready to go when I first graduated High School in the early 90's. Wouldn't consider joining now that I am near 30, married with a child, but back when I was younger an looking for my place in life, I was raring to go.....

floracove	21 Sep 2002
Well if I had to be drafted I would hope to be put in some dept. to help... Maybe the Hospitals of Offices. I Just don't feel that I would have what they would need to be put to the fighting the masses. I mean you would have to have what was needed to do the things they would need you to be doing. Can you imagine a troop of hysterical and scared to death women. Of course that may help in the fighting I have no idea... Or if they had my children, well then that would be a different reason for fighting anyway. I guess to me it all makes no sense. But what can I say I have a woman's brain. (my own) I have no doubt that there are women who have what it takes to be out front. But floracave is not one of them. Besides I have this thing about anyone being foreced to do something against their will. Besides I would be considered to old for that any way in my opinion. And I do have small children. (not that may matter to anyone but me, but it does) "Go rough Gals!" *Wooop em up good!* I'll support ya and do all I could for ya, but believe me as far as I go you would be better off with me being somewhere else. And I am sorry if this offends any one, not meanig to at all, but men and women ARE different. At least I have the sense to know I am not a man nor ever care to be in any situation that he might like to be or be better than I am. That's just my own very humble but definate opinion.

Moongold	21 Sep 2002
Hello Kayne, I'm a fellow Australian who remembers the Vietnam war conscription. I was only 19 at that time and the brother of a woman I lived with was one of the first Australians killed in the Vietnam war. The lessons of the Vietnam war should have taught us something about war - how horrible it is and how political it is. Australians only went to Vietnam because of our country's friendship with the US. Many people now believe that particular War was unnessessary. The same applies to the First World War 1912 - 1919 where so many young Australians died at Gallipoli and in Europe. We were dragged into that war because of our association with Great Britain. We have somewhat romanticised much of this history now. This is not to diminish the heroism of young Australians and Americans and all others who died in war (they are always young) or the suffering of many civilians. Please let us do everything we can to avoid war. I am really anxious about what is happening in the world at present. Let's stop war and then we won't need conscription or the draft. Apart from the ethics of war, this is a really complex question. We often talk about equal opportunity but what do we mean by that? Many of the young Americans who died in Vietnam were young men who were not able to postpone or avoid the draft because of their social or economic situation. Did they really have access to equal opportunity? Similar questions apply to women today. Things are much better for many women in Australia these days but one could really question whether there is really equal opportunity. Many of the politicians who will be making the decisions to send young Australians to war are men because most politicians are men. Parliament is not a place which really welcomes or extends the hand of opportunity to women. The laws still mainly reflect the values of the predominent power group. If women want to join the armed forces and fight in wars, then certainly allow them to do that. But let's concentrate on creating peace so that we are not faced with such black choices. Moongold

Kismet	21 Sep 2002
If men are drafted, I feel it is only fair that we, the weaker sex be drafted as well. If I had my way, no one would ever need to be drafted. I see being in the military as a personal choice we should all make, not be forced into. The question comes though, if both men and women were drafted, and by chance both spouses were called to duty, what would we do with their children? What if both parents died? Should there be an option that only one spouse should go in a situation of that nature? Blessings, love and light, Kismet

RedWood	21 Sep 2002
Kismet from what I have heard...That both parents will not be drafted..it will be one or the other..but in times of war..Who knows what will actually happen....18-24 no children..no money to buy their way out..Will be drafted first...is that fair just cuz you have no kids you get drafted? who knows..its all politics...

Kismet	21 Sep 2002
Redwood, No it isn't fair, but I was meerly throwing a point out, a thought, playing devil's advocate, whichever you prefer....And I still believe it a valid point...:) Love and Light, Kismet

RedWood	21 Sep 2002
I wasnt meaning that it wasnt..i came out wrong is all...it is a good point!

Eyes of Night	21 Sep 2002
For me, war isn't fair. One army is usually stronger than the other. Nature wise, men are stronger than women. In politics, most I see are men. No matter what, nothing will be equal, IMO. I don't like war, and I don't like being forced to do something. If there aren't enough people who join the army when a war explodes, that usually meens that people don't want to go, and they probably don't have the mental strength. I don't really care for equality for men and women when it comes to war, because I just don't want a war. I know we might not be able to avoid it, but we should really be concentrating on peace talk, rather then war right know.

the hermit	22 Sep 2002
As some of you know, I'm a Vietnam War Vet (though I never set foot inside of Vietnam—which presents an interesting dilemma for the Veterans of Foreign Wars organization and thus they won't let me join—though I have a Bronze Star, 2 Purple Hearts, a Presidential Unit Citation, an Outstanding Unit Citation, a Good Conduct Medal and a piece of shrapnel in my leg that airport security systems LOVE, I was never OFFICIALLY in a war zone cuz mr. Nixon lied about it repeatedly to the press AND congress “There are no American troops in Cambodia or Laos”... but all that's a whole different story). Let me answer several questions posed in this thread and along the way I'll express a personal opinion or three.... But then you knew that. I wasn't drafted. But I joined up because my number and name were pulled and I'd have been drafted in 90 days. So I joined the Air Force thinking I'd at least stay out of the jungle... didn't work that way as I received electronics training and ended up sneaking around planting listening devices on the backside of the Ho Chi Min trail in Cambodia and Laos while getting sniped at by angry little brown folks in black pajamas. I say folks cuz they weren't all guys. But the draft sucked and I hope it will never happen or be needed again. Yes, it was a lottery based on your birth date and birth year. At the end of each year the national draft board held a lottery to determine the order in which the next year's days would be called up. The local draft board then held a lottery for each day of the next year to see what order the young men who's birthday it was would be called in for the draft in their districts. Then the military would say "OK... for January we'll need this many warm bodies and for Feb. we'll need that many and... etc. etc." So... if Aug. 30 was one of the numbers for January and they needed 40 warm bodies from your draft district and your birthday was the 30th of August (like me) and you were #39 (like me again)... guess what? You got a nice letter saying you were to report to Oakland California (major induction center for Northern California boys in those days) on such and such a date. So I joined the air force in stead... fat lot of good it did me. Yes... you could request various exemptions from the draft. There were student deferments (that's how mr. Clinton got out of it—by staying a student... and not inhaling), only surviving son exemptions (only worked if your brother had already been killed in the war—not if you were an only son by birth... don’t ask, I didn’t get it either), critical job exemptions (as determined by national and local draft boards), I'm in the National Guard exemptions (that's how George W. got out of it). All of these exemptions were more or less up to the local draft board and it's rumored that lots of cash changed hands at various times during the war (I'm sure you're all shocked at this... as was I—though I was also a lot more naive in those days). Oh, and you could apply for conscientious objector status by virtue of your religious beliefs. Again it was up to the draft board whether you met "the necessary qualifications"... but it didn’t necessarily mean you got out of combat... lot’s of medics were conscientious objectors... you just didn’t get a rifle and you got a lot of harassment throughout basic training. But one of the best and bravest men I ever knew was a conscientious objector, a Quaker... and my medic. I try to visit his grave at the Presidio in San Francisco twice a year, his birthday and Veterans day. He was awarded a Silver Star, his second, for what he did his last day on earth... it should have been the Congressional Medal of Honor. But back to the original question... should women be drafted or even fight in a war? NO! Why? Don’t get upset with me ladies because it’s not that I think women can’t fight or can’t do the other jobs. I know better. It’s already been said in this thread. It’s because women are special... only they can bring another life into our crazy world. It's also because no one should ever have to charge a gun or take a mortar or artillery barrage, or make a stand at a river while their mates cross, or kill another person because of politics or drag a wounded man out of the line of fire. But it happens... so the last person who should be doing these things is a mother or a potential mother. Besides, call me old fashioned but I think it’s my job and the job of others who have been, are and will be in the military to make sure that no one else, least of all someone’s mom, has to make that river crossing. War was bad enough and it was bad enough watching the body bags loaded onto the transports while wondering if you would be in the next one. But I don’t think I could have taken the thought of someone’s mother being inside of one. I don't want to even think about what the VC would have done to an american woman if they'd captured one. Yes rapes occurred... too often. no... I've never raped any woman, in war or otherwise or allowed any of the men under my command OR under my eyes to commit rape... yes I killed a man because he was trying to rape a woman and tried to object with a pistol when I stopped him. Yes, he was an american and she was a captured VC soldier. I spent 2 weeks in the brig awaiting a court martial and was found not guilty of murdering an officer and a gentleman... but in stead was ruled I had committed justifiable homicide upon my commanding officer.

Diana	22 Sep 2002
There's no smily for someone with tears falling from their eyes.

RedWood	22 Sep 2002
I am with Diana...thanks for sharing Hermit...it is nice to hear from someone who knows..and who is willing to talk about it..

Kismet	22 Sep 2002
Hermit, Thanks so much for your posting. I have a lot I'd love to say, but most of all I'd say Blessings and I'm awed. Love and Light, Kismet

truthsayer	22 Sep 2002
thank you for sharing that, hermit. it makes me feel better somehow. not that you had to kill him necessarily but that you still saw the enemy soldier as a female and that she didn't deserve to be brutalized/dehumanized in that way. i think you made a tough decision but one w/ integrity. i'm proud of you for that. (((((((((((hermit))))))))))))))))) would that i felt the same way about my grandfather. i have no idea how many women he assaulted over the course of his life but he didn't stop when the war was over. he should have gone to prison or shot for the things he did but he escaped justice. that means the men he was w/ lacked integrity, too. sorry but it's been 20 years since he told me and 6 years since he died, the anger still feels fresh. i think there have to be better ways for women to show their equality than being in war zones. there are things men are best qualified. there are things women are best qualified. my husband told me about the difficulties of serving in an exercise w/ women in camp. for one, there is no privacy for bathing or "toileting". it puts men in an uncomfortable situation. some men would be willing to exploit her in some way. again some women could handle this but i believe the majority could not. battle can bring out the best in some and worst in others.

floracove	22 Sep 2002
Hugs to you Hermit! (((((((((Hermit))))))))) *tears* And thank you for giving your time and heart for our country!

kayne	23 Sep 2002
Woh - this has been an interesting discussion! Thankyou all for sharing your feelings and experiences so openly. Hermit, I am still bighting my nails at the thought. I think part of the reason I started this thread and have been thinking about it lately is because I personally, as a man and human being, don't feel that I would be psychologically capable of being part of a war of any type. I just couldn't do it. So... Thanks again for sharing your perspectives.

the hermit	23 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by kayne Woh - this has been an interesting discussion! Thankyou all for sharing your feelings and experiences so openly. Hermit, I am still bighting my nails at the thought. I think part of the reason I started this thread and have been thinking about it lately is because I personally, as a man and human being, don't feel that I would be psychologically capable of being part of a war of any type. I just couldn't do it. So... Thanks again for sharing your perspectives. kayne... each generation faces it's issues differently. how i went to war AND the war i went to were far different than the wars my father and his generation were faced with. my reactions and the reactions of my generation were very, very different from his and his generation. Your generation will be no different. No one really ever knows how they will react to something as horrid as war until the time comes... and I hope that you never have to find out. In america, as in too many other nations, we have too often romanticized and made noble the idea's of war and it’s violence. There is nothing romantic about taking the life of another. There is no nobility in watching that life slip from someone's eyes as they realize they are dying. Yet there are times when one must also stand up to the bully on the corner or the madman who sits in a seat of power. The real problem is that all too often these decisions are made based on political agendas and stupid nationalistic claptrap rather than human interest. Millions upon millions have died because the old men who make such decisions are too blinded by greed or nationalism or power. And also because they either never had to fight or have chosen to forget the blood and agony they once saw. I fear that given the propensities of the human race, there will always be war. There will always be another madman seeking to dominate another people, another nation or the world through intimidation and violence. Let us hope that the leaders on the other side of the issues do what is right for humanity while remembering the lessons of the past and not forgetting that the price will be high, nor forgetting the young who will pay that price.

DarkElectric	24 Sep 2002
I guess the thing that has me sort of puzzled and definitely confused here, is that I've read this a couple of times..."If women want equality..." What? WANT equality? We're equal already. We are classified as humans, are we not? We are the female half of a species. Not inferior, not superior, equal. Because a stupid cultural custom has been imposed on the condition of being female for WHATEVER reasons serve to fuel sexism, we have been denied altogether too many opportunities in too many areas. In my opinion, this also applies to the millitary. I believe women should be conscripted, yes. If I were drafted, I would go. This is my nation too, and I don't believe that just because I have a different set of organs, this precludes me from being effective millitary personnel. And I personally don't think war is a good idea for anyone, women or men. But if the people who put themselves in charge decide to start one, I don't think it's fair for just men to fight. We have to do away with gender specific elitism on all levels. Opportunity is being denied to people because of ego problems. Ridiculous colour coding for children is an obvious way to separate and categorise from the earliest ages. The differences are stressed more then the similarities. And of course, the list goes on from there, the way males and females are socilaised, gender stereotyping and bashing, etc. I know many women who really hate men now. And the level of domestic abuse and violence is rising. Do people realise that men are abused too? And I know that it's possible some folks will probably get mad at me and say it isn't as bad for them as it is for us. Why not? Abuse is abuse, and it's gruesome for ANYONE who has to endure it. It isn't just women. We are all haunted by the ugliness of domestic violence. I've been there, I know. And that is more than simply horrible, it's the death knell of our species. We are different, yes. But we are TWO halves of the same animal. We don't hold male squirrels to be superior to female ones, or cows less useful than bulls. So why do we persist in this unfair denigration of females of our own species? I propose the question; "Who has the most to gain from sexism, and keeping women in an enforced position of social subservience? And who has the most to lose if this were to change?" Then ask another question... "Why?" Sincerely think about it for a while. The answer may surprise you. We have got to change our MINDS and CONCIOUSNESS before we can make a difference in society as a whole.We have to think equal, because we are equal. Bad ideas kill people. Conscript me. I'll be proud to fight for my country. Even though I know war sucks.

Sorceress_Jade	24 Sep 2002
Must have had some mad birthday bashes in the australian outfits during Vietnam. I mean, if they were chosed by birthday and all, can you imagine a bunch of people the same age as you... to the day... just milling around you all the time. Eeerie....

The ~ Should women be conscripted if men had to be? thread was originally posted on 20 Sep 2002 in the Chat board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Chat, or read more archived threads.